You are involved, say, with a pathologically self-centered personality, perhaps a narcissist or sociopath?
That is, he wants what he wants when he wants it, and he’ll do whatever’s necessary (his entitlement) to get it, or take it.
Key diagnostic trait: he reserves the right to punish you when you obstruct his agenda.
Now here’s the thing: in the heat of the moment, you may actually be pretty good at confronting his abuse. Maybe you stand up for yourself pretty effectively? Maybe, in the moment, you’re even pretty good at setting limits and challenging his nonsense?
So then what’s the problem?
The problem occurs when you step away from these incidents.
In stepping away from them, you potentially risk enacting your own form of compartmentalization, by which I mean that, while in the moment you may address his abuse with some backbone, yet beyond the moment you effectively “drop the ball” by failing to process, and own, the greater pattern.
It’s a case of our seeing the trees in the forest just fine, yet somehow, defensively, ensuring that we fail to see the forest through the trees.
I’m referring, of course, to a kind of defense mechanism with which some—not all—of us may be familiar?
As I suggested, strategically this defense mechanism deploys a form of compartmentalization, while tactically it assumes forms of denial, minimization and avoidance (of reality).
What precisely is the function and, more importantly, the danger of this defense mechanism?
Its function, I suspect, is to prevent us from connecting the dots; that is, our failure (defensively) to connect the dots enables our avoidance of confronting the greater pattern that underlies the series of incidents.
So long as we address the “abusive incidents” separately—as discreet events—thereby defensively ignoring their wider pattern, then we can rationalize more easily our “staying in” the relationship with a kind of pseudo-dignity and pseudo self-respect.
To be clear, we achieve this self-compromise by reframing the abuse as a series of brushfires to be troubleshot on an ongoing basis, much like a manageable chronic illness.
And especially if, as I’ve noted, we’re pretty good at this—somewhat effective, that is, at confronting these brushfires on a case by case basis—then it becomes easier to compartmentalize in the manner I’m describing.
The danger, of course, is how this defensive process—in its reframing of the exploitation as a series of disconnected, but manageable, events—supports our denial that the relationship has, in fact, been globally and fatally compromised by the exploitation.
This highlights, yet again, the basic conundrum of defense mechanisms: the protection they confer is so often exceeded, unfortunately, by their cost to our well-being and, sometimes, integrity.
(My use of “he” in this article was for strictly for convenience’s sake, not to imply that females aren’t capable of the behaviors discussed. This article is copyrighted © 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Oxy, you are a living example of the importance of setting boundaries.
Lying is part of addictive behavior. While your son (when sober from his addictions) might fully understand how important trust is to you, when in his addictive behavior, all he thinks about is himself and his next fix. This is the way addicts are. For many addicts, their loved ones see their sickness as a “disease” and don’t take it personally. They feel pity and that is how they justify enabling. It takes very strong boundaries to stop enabling a loved one’s bad behaviors.
I stood up to a co-worker a year and a half ago that I’d become personal friends with. She got on a self-destructive binge and became very irresponsible personally and professionally. She was abusing drugs and alcohol and had gtten really out of control. I was very adamant in standing up to her. I wrote her a letter and told her that I would no longer cover for her and I would not “go down” with her, but that I cared for her very much. I let her know that her behaviors were affecting my job, and this was unacceptable for me.
She flipped out and became extremely enraged, turning 2 of my other office “friends” against me for “kicking her when she’s down”. Like with your son, Oxy, this was right around the holidays, so that made me all the more “evil” in their eyes. She moved into a different office and stopped speaking to me. Human Resources was called to “mediate” but all she was able to do was spew hatred and wag her finger. It was like an episode of Jerry Springer. With little support from others, I nearly quit. But it was a lucrative job and I had nowhere to go. Eventually, she quit. But two of the co-workers remain friends with her. Occasionally, they mention her name, and it is not a big deal to me. But it got to me last week when they showed me pictures of she and them all going out together. I got very upset and realized that I myself had set poor boundaries with them. They had betrayed me and yet I glossed over this and downplayed my own feelings of hurt and betrayal. I now realize that I must distance myself from them and not consider them as my friends. This is very difficult for me. I am the peacekeeper, the harmonizer, the therapist…..I don’t like to be angry at people or have rifts. I want everyone to get along. I have swallowed my own feelings to get along. This is what I am learning, that my feelings are important and I need to honor them.
Oxy, thanks for teaching this lesson. If you can do it with your own son(s), then surely I can do it with some backstabbing co-workers.
Hi OxDrover: I read your recent two posts near the transition into the New Year, and knew I wanted to respond at some point. Even at the risk of getting boinked.
You have welcomed many here, including me. You’ve provided great advice and support. And much comic relief.
You are obviously intelligent and respected on here by many.
I realize this website also allows us the opportunity to learn from those we teach, and vice-versa.
I hear you loud and clear that you will not tolerate people in your inner circle lying to you, and that you would have respected it more if your son C had said that he decided to change the original agreement about how he planned to handle his money.
Your son C was married to woman who tried to kill him, left the state after that for 18 months and came back home over a year ago, “jumpy as a long tailed cat in a room full of rockers with the PTSD” as you described it.
You acknowledge C has always been a “hard working man, not mean at all, and pretty responsible.” His addiction to video games caused him to use his money in ways you felt violated an agreement, and led to him lying to you.
And you are right, playing “let’s pretend this didn’t happen” isn’t going to work.
Here’s the thing: Oxy, you have the benefit of at least two decades of age (correct?) and life experience than your 40 y/o son C.
He is not a baby or teen, but neither is he at the same level as you in fully comprehending how you’ve grown and changed as a result of your experiences dealing with Ps in your life, nor the ramifications or emotional impact of lying to you. You said he knows how you feel about liars — I go into more detail on this later.
Maybe C lied to avoid confrontation, was not confident in how to handle discussing this with you, was lazy — any number of reasons. But his lying was about him, not about you.
You were a different person at his age than you are now.
Wasn’t your perspective on lying, confrontation and many other issues very different at his age than now?
You in recent years had to deal with harsh realities — a different son — a P — in prison who tried to have you killed, and your mother being a “psychopath-by-proxy” as you call it, supporting the P son who’s in prison. You’ve made it clear in various posts that THESE 2 PEOPLE DEFINITELY DO NOT DESERVE ROOM IN YOUR INNER CIRCLE OF TRUST.
But C — he’s still finding his way. Isn’t NC extreme with him? So he didn’t even handle it well. Why lose a son over this?
HERE” WHAT YOU WROTE OXY:
“If he had manned up to me and said, “Mom, I want to buy this computer and I know i promised you I would save 1/3 of my pay check, but I have decided I don’t want to do that any more so I am going to move out and get my own place or move in with a friend etc.” THAT WOULD have been FINE, I would have said “Son, I think you are making a mistake handling your finances this way and in the past when you handled them this way, you always ended up DESTITUTE and so on, etc. but I WOULD HAVE RESPECTED HIS CHOICE AND CONTINUED A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM AND LOVED HIM AND SENT HIM ON HIS WAY. However, WHEN (NOT IF) he became destitute again, I would have said, “Son, I’m sorry but you can’t move back home again because you chose to make decisions I advised you were bad, and sure enough, I was correct in this, so you are going to have to figure out how to bail yourself out without coming back home, I do wish you well though.”
Oxy — Your boundaries are good. But you of all people know that people don’t follow our (hoped-for) scripts for them (I hope you can laugh at this line) — and that we generally don’t say exactly what they want us to say, especially when we develop clearer boundaries or they view us as hardened, no-nonsense women and men.
Yes, it would have been really nice had your son said all of that above, but the fact is…he didn’t. In the scheme of things…so what?
Give him other consequences if you must — like not covering insurance?…Be really mad at him if you have too, but I hope only for a little while.
OXY — YOU FURTHER WROTE: “Instead, he made a choice to BE DECEPTIVE, to LIE to me, to disrespect the AGREEMENT he made with me, to violate lthe agreement and then lie about it. THAT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE, that is not loving, that is not respectful, that is NOT grateful or good or honorable.”
AGAIN — His lying or being irresponsible were not about you. It was not personal. Since you have the benefit of really knowing C’s history and character, you are only as harmed by this episode of his lying as you allow yourself to be.
He is as mature or immature as he is — right now. That you are not going to ‘play pretend’ is doing your part in not enabling him. He will have to deal with that.
And you’re not putting your head in the sand — you’ve confronted him. He knows you don’t approve of how he handled it. He will have to learn from this and other mistakes.
You have your boundaries intact and know that you do not plan to rescue him in the future when he doesn’t have money saved to fall back on, because of having spent so much on computers and video games.
You know he lied — and he knows you know — so now he will have the burden of knowing you won’t take what he says at face value until and unless you’re ready to do so again at some point.
All of the above are natural consequences for that he did —
AND you are upholding your standards.
There doesn’t have to be an EITHER/OR. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?
C is an important part of your small family and you and your other son should not have to deprive yourselves of his company if you can still enjoy him in other ways, just because he made a decision that wasn’t responsible. You will keep in the back of your mind how he handled this, but you can still enjoy him if you allow yourself too.
Mistakes are part of the human journey to finding/creating ourselves.
Oxy — Could it be that C has not fully processed all that he experienced related to the P ex-wife and his PTSD? No excuse, but our challenges and wounds do contribute to our limitations — morally and insight-wise — as you know.
You wrote: “HE KNOWS HOW DISTRESSING LIES ARE TO ME, and he knows that I will not tolerate LIARS.”
I get that his lies are distressing to you — lies can distress me too, but I also know I have a choice about how much. Long lines can distress me, but do I keep letting them distress me? Why feel like a rag doll thrown here and there by personalizing other people’s lies, the long lines and other things all the time?
Are you inadvertantly making C carry the full weight and burden for all who have previously lied to you? Or can you put his lie in perspective — simply focus on what he was responsible for, and not the whole bag based on generalizing to include others who’ve lied to you?
And while C’s lying and video addiction are not good, they are not at the level of planning murder-for-hire either — he hurt himself more, and he will need to find his way through this.
You demonstrated boundaries well for him: C’s lie was caught and confronted. You trusted yourself to discern this. He knows you are not letting him think “let’s pretend” is OK — all good for you, because he is getting a direct example/modeling.
He can learn, if he chooses, from this experience with you that one can be confronted and the world doesn’t have to end because of it…that one has a chance to recover and learn, and can decide about change and how one wants to proceed if he wants his mother’s trust again in the future.
You and your family have already suffered a great deal from what your P son in prison and others did.
C’s behavior, while inappropriate, doesn’t even rise to that level of chaos.
And you will be able to continue giving C natural consequences because you are clear about who you are, your values and what matters to you.
Full NC, a good thing when abuse is involved, can sometimes also be a false front of strength — such as when you impose unnecessary pain on yourself for no good reason at all. Cut yourself some slack — you’ve upheld you values and practiced boundaries. So NC as in count-the-number-of-days-I’ve-been away-from-my-son to send him a message — what’s the point? You’ve done what you needed to do already.
Let’s say C wants to come for dinner and he’s even bold enough to ask you for money soon — no doubt, you will be able to ignore the request or say no.
Oxy, you know this — As long as you have your clarity and boundaries intact, C will have reminders that he yet has to deal with the consequences of his behavior (lyiing to you) until there is a shift in the dynamics (him earning your trust again or you simply accepting that his addiction to video games is going to be a long burden for him, which may involve many future episodes of evading responsibility for handling of his financial resources.
Maybe lying occasionally to evade responsibility will turn out to be C’s one major flaw. If you know this, you get to choose how to deal with him so you can be OK regardless of what he does.
Otherwise good people sometimes lie for a lot of reasons, not always sinister. Lying is not good. For the most part, not exercising is not good either — but many people who know this remain sedentary.
Oxy, you know all this. As teachers and students at Lovefraud, we can help remind each other to have compassion for ourselves — that we’ve done our best and sometimes that is good enought — on this unfolding journey after we’ve confronted a minor or major storm.
I’ve learned a great deal from what you’ve written on this site. But all of us can be wounded healers….I know I am.
We can have our standards — but they’re our standards. Other people have their own standards. Even our children.
They also have their own perspective on things, based on their life experiences and other factors. We likely made similar mistakes at their age.
None of us run the universe, so we have to deal with all kinds of people in this life — whether for short stretches or long ones. We can be amused by what they do. We can be bothered by what they do, or have other reactions. We can be fooled by N/S/Ps.
It’s our own boundaries and self-respect that ultimately make some difference in how much others will be able to affect our well-being.
But what they do is their own stuff, just like what we do is ours.
We can protect ourselves from others’ issues. We can set boundaries and also be open to tolerating some things, maybe in small doses.
Oxy, your background as a nurse has required definitive action — matters involving health habits, life and death. There may be little room for error when someone with diabetes or cancer needs to follow a prescribed course of treatment to improve their health or prevent an early death.
Our minds and spirits are more fluid as you know. My background as a psychotherapist has involved supporting a philosophy of “progress, not perfection.”
We are always unfolding, in process. Some people actively seek growth. Others want to coast. Others don’t have a clue.
I am different now at 47 than I was at 20 and at 33 when I had my only child (who’s now 13).
There is a middle ground somewhere. No one is perfect. Good people make mistakes, and have to figure out lessons and their next steps.
You and I both know first-hand about N/S/Ps — the research says they have no empathy, no interest in or capacity for change. So they are a different category. They must be handled differently — perhaps most through total NC; others through limited contact (if co-parenting, for example).
Oxy — You said your son C is not a N/S/P. Please remember that.
Just some things to think about.
I look forward to reading more of your wise contributions and those of others who post here on Lovefraud.
And best wishes to you in the New Year.
Recovering, having read what you’ve written, I think you’re very wise. You say,
“I get that his lies are distressing to you lies can distress me too, but I also know I have a choice about how much. Long lines can distress me, but do I keep letting them distress me? Why feel like a rag doll thrown here and there by personalizing other people’s lies, the long lines and other things all the time?
Are you inadvertantly making C carry the full weight and burden for all who have previously lied to you? Or can you put his lie in perspective simply focus on what he was responsible for, and not the whole bag based on generalizing to include others who’ve lied to you?”
We can all only do what we feel is right for us, but having thought this over for a while … I do agree with you. I read in The Betrayal Bond that sometimes people not used to putting boundaries in place can underreact and sometimes overreact. I know that now I’ve started putting boundaries in place I am overdoing it a bit. I feel like telling everyone who’s not wonderful to me all of the time to get lost! But that’s because now I can see who I was I don’t want to be that Lowly Worm any more and expect to be treated perfectly by everyone. That ain’t gonna happen! And I’m not entitled to it either.
Oxy, this isn’t me talking about you now. We’re all grownups and will do what we have to do, but recovering, I think what you’ve written is very sobering for me. I am in danger of cutting off my own nose to spite my face in my avoiding shaming or triggering people. I don’t want to be left with nobody. 🙁
Real words of wisdom, Recovering. Boundaries are a really good thing. But sometimes they can become fortresses. I am one who is more apt to cut someone off in a fit of anger because I am not skillful at setting limits on certain behaviors.
When it comes to work relationships (where I’m struggling the most right now), I cannot go NC with them, so I often try to find ways to get along with people I normally wouldn’t have as close acquaintances or friends, perhaps even due to lack of common interests.
Oxy, I just read your post, and I can only imagine how disappointed and frustrated you feel.
This issue, video game addiction, is something I’ve gone through with my own son too. He admits the problem, and had tried to go to AA (the group would not accept him because it did not recognize the addiction) and has cut off his subscriptions to World of Warcraft (WOW) several times. There are, in fact, online groups and advisors to breaking the addiction. Online estimates are that 10-40 of the millions of players are psychologically addicted.
Over the years, I’ve come to learn a few things. One is that it a source of achievement and attention for that achievement for people who feel blocked or inadequate in their own lives. It is also a social venue, where people learn to know and respect each other for their skills, not just in playing but in leadership. The games are challenging in themeselves. There are forums for discussions of issues, not just how to play, but about future developments and player opinions about new developments. There are blogs and magazines, and except for the fact that there is no money to be made in this world (unless you become a world-class competitor), it is very much like an area of business.
The problem, at least as it emerged in my family, is very much like the problems that can be presented by incessent Web browsing. It starts to replace real-life activities. People stay in the online world rather than developing friendships, skills and experiences in the real world. They become glued to their chairs, don’t exercise, don’t sleep enough (because the games are scheduled to certain times of day and can last an indeterminate amount of time), and overall their lives become about the games more than anything else.
For many years I was angry about this, and fought it as though it was a kind of competitor for my son’s life. I encouraged him to think about it as an addiction, and there were times I tough-loved him about it.
What turned out to work better for me was to look at it as an interest of his that was more than a mindless escape. When I became interested in why it meant to much to him, I learned about his achievements, the friendships, the way it made him feel better about his life at times when the “real” world was difficult or disappointing. And like many players, although he gave too much attention to it at times, he still managed to get to work, maintain his outside friendships (although he convinced a lot of his friends to join in the game), and I can’t really say that he lost himself in it. He just made choices in favor of playing, rather than doing other things.
That doesn’t mean that it is entirely a good thing. There are jokes all over game sites about the fact that mothers, spouses and girlfriends (or boyfriends) tend to get upset, interfere in games, or drag them away. Where this gets addictive is where it becomes a means to disassociate from other realities and responsibilities. And in talking about this with my son, we’ve been able to get some of this out in the open. We needed to find ways for him to keep track of other responsibilities in his life (like helping me and contributing to the household upkeep) that didn’t make me feel responsible for dragging him away from the computer.
I perfectly understand that you are not willing to accept him lying to you. And that he has not performed according to your agreement with him, when he moved into your house.
However, if he had a passion for chess or for dancing or for some other hobby that required investment of time of money, what would you have thought about his use of the money he makes? It sounds like he had met his direct obligations to you in terms of rent and expenses. But the rest of your requirements about what he does with the remaining third of his money extend beyond anything to do with you. I realize that you intention is to protect him and you from any unexpected expenses, but it seems that perhaps that last third of his income might be something that he is responsible for managing (and living with the repercussions of mismanaging, if that is the case). Unless you have some previous evidence that he is incapable of handling his money without this kind of intense oversight, he is a grown man.
I do apologize if this sounds like I’m being critical of you. I know that you’ve been through a lot with your kids, and that you care for him deeply and don’t want him to get into trouble. But also think that the fact that he lied to you may not only be about addiction. It may be about a choice that he made for what he wanted versus what you want, and an attempt to keep it from coming between you. You are not just his mother, but also his landlord, and he had a lot to lose.
You, obviously, have every right to run your household and your relationships as you see fit. And if you don’t want to be living with someone who, in your terms, is heading for financial disaster because he’s not putting away money for a rainy day, that’s up to you. I can certainly understand your concerns about that.
But as far as the lying goes or his choices about how he spends his personal time, I just know that it helped me and improved my relationship with my son a lot when I learned more about what he was doing. In our case, he still plays a lot when he’s in a depressive slump; it’s one of the clues I have about how well he’s doing. When he’s feeling better about himself and life (and sometimes, things that he discovers or achieves online contribute to that), he sees more to life than the computer, even in his recreation time, and he’s out and about again.
I don’t know if any of this is helpful. As I said, I feel for you. I hope you find a way to work it out.
Kathy
becoming: I too have done the extremes in boundaries — underreact or overreact — and sometimes still do. What helps me is to remain open to reason and consider the unique situation and needs of those involved — not just looking out for others, but for myself as well — especially when there is mutual caring and a relationship is not toxic.
It shows flexibility when we can co-exist with diverse people, and it is freeing to know we won’t be destroyed if everyone is not wonderful to us at all times. Sometimes we might have to tell them to get lost, sometimes we ignore them, sometimes we give them back the crap they give to us, sometimes we retreat, take a time out, sometimes we just laugh about it, or whatever. And life and the world goes on…
I especially like what you said in “not expecting to be treated perfectly by everyone — That ain’t gonna happen! And I’m not entitled to it either.”
Boy, I need this article right now, AND much of this string of messages.
To begin, dear Persephone, I absolutely agree with everything that Oxy et al are saying — I broke off my relationship with my crazy psycho boyfriend in October but kept a line of communication open — that was probably a mistake (as was staying as long with him as I did.) Right before Christmas, my counselor started saying to me, “you’re standing in the doorway, and that’s the most dangerous place to be.” I knew I had to walk out the door and close it, but I didn’t want to do it before Christmas, out of empathy towards HIM, and towards the fact that he had just learned that his brother (who he hadn’t spoken to for over 10 years) had cancer. I thought I’d wait til after Christmas, but the Thursday before Christmas he was sweet enough to forward me 11 pictures of women who had been disfigured by having acid thrown in their faces, 7 of whom had broken of relationships. All of them had offended men in some way. I brought it to the police, and they said I could file harrassment charges. Perhaps I should have – even the woman cop who took the report was repulsed by the images. Instead, I filed for an emergency order of protection and got it.
Unfortunately this coming Monday I have to meet my psycho-ex in court to get the order extended. And I’m nervous about this. I don’t want to look him in the eye, or run into him in the waiting area before the proceedings, or ANYTHING, because I know he’s capable of swinging me back into this sympathy by just capturing my glance the right way. I’m also nervous about running into him after the court meeting — he has threatened to “get me” before. . . .
Fun, eh? This is where this article comes in — I’ve been compartmentalizing a lot, remembering the good times, overlooking the bad, thinking “maybe I shouldn’t go through with this.” I also have comparttmentalized in the other direction – remembering only the bad times, the weird threatening times, the times when I would sit in his house and try to figure out what was true and what was fiction. So I’d end up giving in to him. (he also liked to drop threats, veiled or otherwise, that kept me uncertain and fearful.)
From this distance, and with the help of family, friends, and a dynamite counselor (I found her in my local woman’s shelter), I’ve been able to “connect the dots” and see a very abusive pattern, one in which I was brainwashed into a constant state of fear and unbalance. (beginning to perceive the pattern, in fact, is what caused me to break the whole thing off.)
OK, too much already perhaps, but I do want to thank all who write here, because you support my own quest to remain sane. You help me see that my insanity and imbalance is not something I suffer alone. If someone can recognize themselves in my story, well then please do, and act on it. I’m so glad I did.
I feel lucky though – I never married him, never even lived with him. So for those of you, like Persephone, and everyone else who is feeling so entangled and in the thick of it, believe please that you are very strong and very sane. Something powerful brought you here! And, as I’ve said elsewhere, you MUST believe in what that voice in your gut is telling you. It will guide you–it’s your angel, with a red flag and with a life line.
happy new year hugs to all–
Stargazer, you said: “Boundaries are a really good thing. But sometimes they can become fortresses.”
Like you, I have been in the past what you describe as someone “apt to cut someone off in a fit of anger when I was not as skillful at setting limits on certain behaviors.” What helped me get a better grip on this was realizing my own imperfections — owning my own flaws and embracing my own Shadow.
My ongoing goal now is to keep my “angel” and “bitch” potential integrated rather than allow either of them completely take over.
Dear Recovering (first) and Becoming (send)
Thank you, R, for the long and very carefully thought out response and you have some very very VERY good points in your post.
Yes, my son is an adult. The thing is, the agreement for him to live here and SAVE 1/3 of his pay, was made BECAUSE if he got an apartment of his own, he would (on his salary) NOT be able to save a sinigle dime. He would have to live hand to mouth and day to day without ANY chance of being able to accumulate a “nest egg” He also owed my egg donor about $10,000, and he was going to start paying on that again as well. he has always been good about paying debts if he borrowed money (except when he was living with the P DIL)
Anyway, however, the PURPOSE of the agreement and CONDITON of him living here was to HELP HIM SAVE MONEY so he would NOT have to live hand to mouth when he did leave here for his own place.
My son, who is ADHD has always been like many ADHD kids and adults “into video games” and played them a great deal, a segment of his “closest friends” are also into video games big time, and they are alwyas into FINANCIAL STRAIGHTS because of their buying huge Big Scrren TVs and thousands of dollars of computers and video games, and yes, that is their choices, they are adults and can spend their money on these things if they want to. They can also take their money to the casinos across the river and gamble it all laway, it is not ILLEGAL for them to do this. It isn’t “illegal” for my son to spend thousands of dollars or ALL his money on computer games—I don’t think it is WISE (and frankly he doesn’t either) but
1) HE IS NOT EXERCISING IMPULSE CONTROL. His DESIRES and IMPULSES to have more and bigger and faster computers for his games is overcoming his good sense just like a gambling addict goes to the cansio and takes the rent money to try to double it and comes home to be evicted.
2) He has a conscience, and FEELS BADLY ABOUT not controlling his impluses (which is difficult for an addict to do) so he lives in fear of the time that the ONE person he feels he has to HIDE this from finds out.
He SUDDENLY makes up “logical sounding stories” to tell me about why he took his money out of our fire safe and put it into a bank account—and the reason it was in the fire safe instead of the bank before is HE felt that the money was safer in there than in a bank with the economy like it is and little or no interest being paid on savings. Of course this 180 degree shift in where he keeps his money makes my “spidey sense go tingle” because he never had any problem in the past with me knowing how much was there, and if I needed a $100 in cash I would take it and tell him, “Hey, I borrowed a $100 in cash to do x with today, deduct that from what you pay me this Friday.” The PURPOSE OF MOVING THE CASH was to put it where I couldn’t count it. HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO DO THIS, but the ONLY reason he didn’t want me to count it is that he knew I might question it if it suddenly went WAAAY down for any reason i wasn’t aware of. It was deceit.
Now, he is a grown man, he can spend his money any way he wants, and take the consequences there of.
The PURPOSE OF HIM BEING HERE was so that he COULD save money, and he knew that. What benefit were there in him living here “cheaply” if he was NOT going to use that opportunity OPPORTUNITY to save money that he would NOT have if he had his own place? I gave him an OPPORTUNITY to stay here, in a nice house, on a farm he loves, to have his goats to milk, and so on, but the OPPORTUNITY to save money WAS A REQUIREMENT OF HIM LIVING HERE for the price he was paying for room and board.
One third of his take home (he is a blue color worker, not highly paid, but does have health hinsurance) was enough to cover what it cost me to feed him and for the increased utilties and so on, but FAR LESS THAN HE COULD HAVE SUPPORTED AN INDEPENDENT PLACE TO LIVE. It was a WIN WIN situation….but like anything there are RULES and he KNEW THE RULES, they have been the same rules since he got his first job at 15. They have not changed.
No, I am NOT making him take the fall for all the previous liars in my life, but I can see the point in that for sure.
MY SON, AS MUCH AS I LOVE HIM, is an ADDICT—it is the ADDICTION that made him lie to cover up what he was spending, just as if he had a gambling addiction, or just as if he had a booze or drug addiction, he was WILLING TO LIE to cover up the discovery of his SPENDING MONEY ON HIS ADDICTION.
My egg donor was a CPA and a very good money manager, the one thing she and my “depression era grandparents’ taught me is to ‘save for a rainy day.” It is GOOD SENSE and though I have NOT always practice it when I was very young and out on my own—I did spend down to the last cent every week, but the times I got into financial trouble by doing that TAUGHT me a lesson. YOU DELAY IMPULSE SPENDING FOR NON NECESSITIES unless you already have a “nice nest egg” for EMERGENCIES, and you pay your debts before you spend on “toys”
I’m cheap as a skate for “toys” but I have plenty of them, I don’t do without them, but because my own income has gone down and is limited, I am careful on how I spend my money and I don’t WASTE money. I have taught my sons the same thing. Plus, I keep my “rainy day” fun for “BLIZARDS, FLOODS, TORNADOES etc.” I don’t use it for HANG NAILS, OR TOYS.
My son knows this, but he was CHOSE NOT to exercise IMPULSE CONTROL OVER HIS desires for IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION FOR HIS DESIRES FOR HIS VIDEO GAMES, OVER THE AGREEMENT HE MADE WITH ME. So he tried to cover up breaking the agreement by LYING.
Now, when his grandmother BROKE HER AGREEMENT to not send money to my P-son, and LIED, my son was SO ANGRY he went NC with her for her LIES. Yet, some how this is DIFFERENT HOW? Actually, he started quoting scriptures to me (just like my egg donor) while he STILL HAD THE LIE IN HIS MOUTH—-trying to deflect the subject off HIS LIE on to my relationship with God and the Bible, His word.
Ah, come on! He has reverted to the FAMILY LINE, of it is okay for me to lie to you, but it is not okay for someone to lie to me and i will quote scripture on it.
If he is NOT going to adhere to the RULES for living in my house (as mean and nasty as they are–save your money for a rainy day so when you leave here you will have some money saved up to take care of you if your car craps out or you break your leg and miss 2 months of work, or your company folds and you are out of work in the middle of a recession) then what is the use of him being here? It was for HIS benefit, not mine, it was to give lhim a WAY TO USE THIS OPPORTUNITY to hellp himself. I wasn’t giving him money, but giving him a OPPORTUNITY. He wasn’t taking advantage of it because he has an ADDICTION (video games, gambling drugs, what’s the difference, it takes all your money and ruins your life?)
So if I had allowed lhim to continue to live here, to lie to me and spend his money for toys, he would have been in the same shape he has BEEN IN MANY TIMES BEFORE. This is NOT the FIRST TIME he has lied to me ABOUT THE SAME THING, video games, and spending his savings for computers and video games. THIS IS A PATTERN.
Telling him to leave is the CONSEQUENCE of his breaking the rules, and of also lying about it. Anytime he did not think the rules were FAIR he could have manned up and talked to me, but he chose, just like a kid (not an adult) to go ahead and break the rules and to LIE ABOUT IT. That is not adult, that is not responsible, that is not acceptable in my life and HE KNEW THAT.
If I had lied to him, can you even imagine the OUTRAGE HE WOULD HAVE DISPLAYED? LOL
In all the years my son D has been with me, he lied to me ONE time. Afterwards we sat down and we talked, and I told him how much it had hurt me for him to lie to me, we discussed why he lied (and I know it was because he was fearful to tell me the truth–it wasn’t anything illegal or immoral that he did either) and we hugged each other and we cried, and I know that he will NEVER LIE TO ME AGAIN, overtly or covertly. I listened to him and he listened to me. Trust, full trust was IMMEDIATELY RESTORED.
With C, he has lied to me MULTIPLE TIMES and always about the same thing, BREAKING THE RULES about saving his money while living here (this is not a prison after all, he was quite capable of saying I”m moving to town because I want to, or any thing else) but he WANTED to stay here AND to USE THE MONEY HE SAVED BY LIVING HERE to FUEL HIS ADDICTION. He was willing to lie to do this.
He was NOT willing to discuss it even, must less show any repentence (though I have no doubt he feels guilty and bad) and HE IS NOT WILLING TO CHANGE HIS PATTERN OF DECEIT, OR LYING ABOUT THIS. Every time he has moved out of here it has been because of a LIE and DECEIT over him spending huge sums of money on computers and video games. Every bit of that money was ‘saved” because he was living here after being out on his own, without any saved money—because he spent it all on living expenses AND video games and computers—and then when some emergency came up, he had a) no place to live b) no vehicle c) no job or a way to get to one D) no medical insurance etc. Then, he would say ‘sorry’ and I would allow him to come back home, give him a place to stay, he’d get a job and I’d finance a car for him and the DANCE WOULD START OVER. I really didn’t SEE how I was ENABLING him—-and I did think he had LEARNED after the epsiode with the x-wife.
I don’t have to be a prophet to tell you that a gambling addict will ALWAYS be in financial crisis, I don’t have to be a prophet to tell you that although my son works every day, he will be DESTITUTE in from 6 months to a year, out of a vehicle, out of a place to stay unless he is couch surfing, and out of a job because he has no vehicle and his credit is ruined during the time he was married, I used to “blame that” on her, but I think now it was as much him as her.
So what have I accomplished over the past 25 years taking him in off and on when he “got down on his luck”—he did okay for a while, then started lying about spending the money he had agreed to save on video games and computers. And, hey, it isn’t like he doesn’t already have the TOP OF THE LINE computers etc. He is still an ADDICT and to me it doesn’t matter if it is video games, substances or gambling, it will RUIN his life, and NO ONE IS GOING TO LIVE IN MY HOUSE, PUT THEIR FEET UNDER MY TABLE and LIE to me about their addiction and I will play “let’s pretend” about it.
It’s hard, so very hard to CONFRONT someone you love who has lied to you, but in the end, if you respect someone, if you truly love someone you don’t lie to them.
Last summer I took in a “homeless” woman who was supposedly a victim of DV, and she came here so she could have an OPPORTUNITY to get back on her feet. I really did feel sorry for her because she was living in her vehicle with her two dogs. It really was a good opportunity for her, because she could leave her two dogs here while she went to a job, or she could have ridden into town with my son C when he went to his job, but she came up with one excuse after another of WHY SHE COULD NOT LOOK FOR WORK. I have never in my life heard such a litiny of excuses of why someone was too good to work fast food, too smart to do this, or not physically able to do that, and as far as doing anything around here, well he WAS ABLE to show up at my house 2-3 times a day for meals, and to use one of my bathrooms, but not wash dishes or clean the bathroom–she finally did decide she could cook though. After about 3 months of this, I asked her to leave and gave her $150 for gas to get somewhere else. She was NOT going to use the OPPORTUNITY I offered her.
I offered my son an OPPORTUNITY TO SAVE SOME MONEY and at the same time have a comfortable living environment much above what he could have afforded if he had rented a house or an apartment (which would alone have taken MORE than half his salary) He had a cell phone that only cost him !2$ a month instead of his own plan which would have been $60 or more. So lots of SAVINGS, but it was agreed that the SAVINGS was to benefit him and allow him to accumulate a NEST EGG. He didn’t have to agree to that. He could have rented an apartment or house, or moved any time he jgot tired of the agreement. He CHOSE to lie instead because he knew if he moved out, HE WOULDN’T HAVE ANY MONEY TO BUY COMPUTERS, it would have taken all jhis savings just to move out.
The computers were more important than truth, than honesty, than keeping his word, than being responsible, or controling his impulses. Now, he can’t come back. The UNrepentent LIAR has no place in my life. I’ve made room for TOO MANY unrepentent liars my entire life and I can’t do it any more.
How many times do we let someone lie to us just because we love them. How many times do we let them break agreements just because we love them. How many times do we allow them to refuse to talk about their lies and betrayls just because we love them. How many times do we pretend it didn’t happen just because we love them?
The answer to that is NONE if they are adults.
Yep, sticking to my guns this time is just as hard as it was with my egg donor and my P-son, because I loved them WITHOUT RESERVE, but just because C didn’t STEAL that money from me doesn’t mean what he did wasn’t dishonest, underhanded and a lile (which he knew the consequences of) and it was part of a LIFE LONG PATTERN OF ADDICTION. It is about as far as I know the ONLY thing he has ever lied to me about. Addiction is addiction is addiction, and you can’t “fix” an addict, they must fix themselves.
If lhe gets down and destitute again (he will) he will have to start and continually work on a 12 step program or he will never be welcome back into my circle of trust, and there will not ever be an immediate giving of trust back to him, he will have to EARN IT one day at a time. I will pray for him, and love him, but I can’t fix him.
Your posts and Kathleen’s posts are really giving me things to think about. I have definitely gotten more laid back in my 40’s and more accepting of differences. In fact, I’m one of the most tolerant people I know, and that’s one of the reasons I am well-liked in my social circles. It’s the unresolved anger that keeps getting in my way. It gets triggered by boundary violations. I sometimes have reactions that go beyond the boundary violations, and then I can’t tell if the person is a safe person or not. I sometimes rely on counselors to tell me if they think someone is a safe person. Sometimes I just can’t tell. When in doubt, I take the more conservative path and cut them off. It doesn’t usually trouble me too much because usually I haven’t bonded closely with these people to begin with. Sometimes it is their troubling behaviors that prevent the bonding in the first place.
With men I get close to, though, I tend to be the opposite. I am more forgiving of things that should be red flags.