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By | July 15, 2011 152 Comments

What are worthless and wicked people like? A Biblical description of the psychopath

Editor’s note: Although this post describes the Judeo-Christian scripture, Lovefraud respects and honors all religious and spiritual traditions.

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (retired)

One of my favorite books of the Bible is Proverbs, which was attributed to Solomon, King of Israel, the son of King David. Though reputedly the wisest man in the world, Solomon didn’t always put his philosophies and wisdom to good use in his own life. Nonetheless, the book does have a lot of wisdom in it, including this description of a psychopath.

Proverbs 6:12-19, I think, is a perfect description of the psychopath.

The New Living Bible translation:

12 What are worthless and wicked people like? They are constant liars,

13 signaling their deceit with a wink of the eye, a nudge of the foot, or the wiggle of fingers.

14 Their perverted hearts plot evil,Ӭand they constantly stir up trouble.

15 But they will be destroyed suddenly,Ӭbroken in an instant beyond all hope of healing.

16 There are six things the Lord hates —”¨no, seven things he detests:

17 haughty eyes,Ӭa lying tongue,Ӭhands that kill the innocent,

18 a heart that plots evil,Ӭfeet that race to do wrong,

19 a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord in a family.

Psychopathy is not something new in the world, it is just that we, as former victims or associates of these people, have become acutely aware of the evil that people can do to others. We have personally experienced the pain that comes from the betrayal of a lover, friend, family member, child, parent, or someone else who was very close to us, someone we trusted.

Psychopaths have been around since the beginning of humanity and they have preyed on others. They have risen to the highest levels as kings and dictators of countries, like Stalin and Mao, who have been responsible for the deaths of perhaps a hundred million of people, or they have simply preyed on those that were close to them. The majority of the suffering that mankind as a whole endures, both in mass and individually, is because of the actions of psychopaths.

We may not be able, as individuals, to avoid the mega-troubles brought on by psychopathic rulers, but by learning the “red flags” of a psychopath, by learning how to avoid these people on an individual level in the future, we can keep ourselves safer. We can teach others and teach our children how to recognize these evil ones, and how to avoid becoming intimate with them, how to avoid letting them con us financially and emotionally.

There are many great articles here at Lovefraud that talk about the things that we can spot in a person to see that they are possibly high in psychopathic traits. We call these traits “Red Flags,” because they signal that there is danger in the person who is behaving in that manner. If we ignore these red flags, we will absolutely become embroiled in their deceit and chaos.

The eight short verses above describe perfectly the psychopaths in our lives, who leave behind misery and pain.

The Bible (in verse 17) refers to “haughty eyes,” where in today’s language we would call it arrogance. If a person acts in an arrogant and “entitled” manner, we can see that there is a good chance this person does not value other people highly, but values himself above others.

Verse 12 calls them “constant liars,” which is pretty plain in even today’s language. People who lie continually, sometimes “when the truth would fit better,” are not people we can trust. Doing “business” of any kind with a person who is a “constant liar” is very risky because they cannot be trusted.

Verse 13 speaks about how they “signal their deceit” with a wink of the eye. They make light of their dishonesty, showing that honesty and forthrightness is not something that they value highly.

Verse 14 talks about how they “stir up trouble,” and if that is not a perfect signal, a bright red flag, that someone is up to no good, I don’t know what is. People who are “drama queens and kings” are continually creating chaos and unnecessary pain for others.

Verse 18 speaks about those that “plot evil,” which is pretty clearly something that a psychopath does. This may be something that can be observed from the way they treat others, or it may be something that they tell you about how they have treated someone else. Be assured if they treat others badly, you will eventually become one of the people that they will also treat badly, no matter how nicely they treat you today.

“Stirs up trouble in a family” is mentioned in verse 19 (“sows discord in a family”), and is particularly evident in family interactions with the psychopath, as well as business dealings and relationships with their neighbors.

When we see these characteristics in a person’s daily life, or in their past life, we should realize that there are “red flags” waving to warn us that this person, even if they do not qualify as a “full fledged psychopath,” is high enough in the traits of the psychopath that he or she is toxic to those that are connected with them. They are not worthy of our trust…even if it is just a “little bit” arrogant, or a “little bit” of a liar, or stir up a “little bit” of drama, because people who will do these things, who are dishonest and arrogant, will turn on others at their whim. Avoiding toxic and dramatic, lying and deceitful people is the only way that we can protect ourselves. We can’t change these people, any more than we can change a venomous snake. All we can do is to avoid their proximity to us, so that they are not in a position to harm us.

Our trust is something that is precious and something that we must guard by watching for the red flags in the behavior and actions of others. Guard your trust well.


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donna dixon

Thank you, Joyce!

Just another validation that I was married to a sociopath and that interestingly enough … “he did eventually turn on me”.

I gain more and more strength each day by reading these posts!!

Ox Drover

Thanks Ms. Dixon, glad you like the article.

A couple of years ago Donna did an article also take from Proverbs describing a female psychopath who lures in unsuspecting males into her “web” like a spider lures a fly…it is amazing to me how there are so many descriptions of psychopathic-type people in literature, especially in the Bible, but not only in the Bible, but in plays, movies, stories, myths and novels. Of course the NEWS MEDIA is filled with stories of the “worst of the worst” of the crimes of some of the psychopaths, but they are everywhere.

I have literally started to COMPLETELY avoid anyone who shows ANY of the signs of dishonesty, trouble-making, lying or deceit. It just isn’t worth the hassle of being around people I can’t trust, unless I absolutely have to for some short-term reason beneficial to myself. But I for sure won’t trust them.

Oxy – I know Liane quoted Hebrew scripture in reference to psychopathic women, but I didn’t. I really don’t know the Bible at all. I spent 8 years in Catholic school, and they never taught the Bible. My personal views have now diverged significantly from what they did teach.

So I was fascinated by the verses you quoted – perhaps if I had been taught these words, I would have been better equipped to deal with the sociopath.

skylar

Oxy,
the bible is a great place to get descriptions of psychopaths. I hadn’t read that one, thank you for sharing it.

BF and I were looking to sell some coins one day and we called around and found a few places that buys coins. The first place we called, the man who answered was evasive and did some double talk about the price, but we went in anyway. He was busy with another customer when we arrived so we listened to his conversation. After a few minutes, BF and I looked at each other, got up and left. When we got outside, BF said, “It was like observing a character from the bible!” I said, “they’ve been around a long, long time. There’s nothing new under the sun.” 🙂

Ana

Oxy,
Thanks for writing this piece. It certainly is a good
reminder. So they have been around a long, long time!
Good information in this article.

Ox Drover

Dear Donna, Okay, so it was Liane not you! CRS! LOL 🙂

But seriously there are MANY DESCRIPTIONS of psychopaths in the Bible, in Greek and Roman Mythology, well as history, and literature. Whatever the person’s philosophy is, there can be found descriptions of psychopaths in the literature or religious writings in their culture or philosophy.

Sky is right “there is nothing new under the sun” (that is a quote from the old Testament, not sure the chapter and verse—my CRS has made me forget a lot of my citations.)

Whether or not, Donna, studying these things in a vacuum will help us later when we really encounter someone who IS HIGH IN PSYCHOPATHIC TRAITS or not, is up in the air, but I do know it can’t hurt!

lovedapsycho

The only way i believe a person can truly understand these people is to seek God first. Otherwise youll be lost.

Ox Drover

I just noticed something about this article in verse 15 about they are “beyond all hope of healing.”

As many times as I have read this passage, I didn’t realize until just now that even the description in the Bible says that these people are BEYOND ALL HOPE OF HEALING.

It is amazing what you see sometimes even on the 100th time of re-reading an article (even one you wrote yourself! LOL) that isn’t apparent the first 99 times you read it! LOL

Louise

Oxy:

Good observation and very humbling to realize that they cannot be healed.

Ox Drover

Louise,

NO ONE can be “healed” who does not WANT to be healed, and is not willing to accept responsibility for themselves. That is the thing we must realize is that until they are willing to accept their own responsibility and to make changes in the way they treat others, there is no hope for them to change. We Can’t do it against their will.

Louise

Oxy:

Yep, they have to want the help. They will settle down if they want to change, but very few do. Thinking a lot about my X spath again, but I am OK. Thanks, Oxy.

Back_from_the_edge

Here, here, Ox: NO ONE can be healed until they WANT it or unless they want it.
You can lead a horse to water….yah, yah…

Nobody can MAKE them do anything against their will and their will is that somewhat like a wild stallion.

No, I don’t believe they can be healed.
They don’t want to change; they LIKE it the way it is…
It is their life; their adrenalin rush; their excitement….
Without us, they would have no entertainment.

I don’t need this turmoil, stress and dysfunction in my life.
I AM TRYING TO LIVE. LIVE what I have left.

“IT” spent a long time ‘grooming’ me to be the mindless soul I was. It almost ‘groomed’ me right straight into oblivion and I just let it. How’s that for taking responsibility? I let it because I truly believed that, like the normal rest of us, “IT” would SEE and voluntarily appreciate everything but it never has and I can see that now. Like I told “IT”: “You were suppose to be my best friend, yet, you left me here to die alone and THEN tell me to shut up?” I don’t think so.

Have a good night everyone.
Sleep with the Angels about you…

xxoo

The Dupedster

Ox Drover

Goodnight, guys, I am off to beddie bye!

Back_from_the_edge

Yah, thinking about your x, Louise….

(((sorry))) It will be okay. You are doing the right thing by protecting yourself inside and out. So am I. We don’t need that back. That was poison; toxic to us and our being.

Yes, I think about “IT” too…when you think of “IT”, go reward yourself with something good or something nice. Do that every single time you think of “IT” and start to feel sad…sooner or later, you will forget about the sadness because you will be equating it with something pleasurable instead. Despite what shrinks say, I am a FIRM BELIEVER in avoidance behavior when it comes to our circumstances.

This takes LOTS of self discipline and LOTS of stamina and really, really, wanting it but if you do, it will come. I promise. I have been learning this myself.

But, diagnosis today was still kind of ‘gloom’…
Seems my PTSD has moved into the ‘ice cold blank stage’…

The no emotion stage. It is so lifeless; like I am just floating and have no place to land. The more I teach myself and educate myself and the more I talk about my experience and share it with others, the more healed I become.

I am grateful for having this place to come = where we can all meet and share our stories and give support. “I” think this is where some of the Angels reside….in each of you. xxoo

Have a nice weekend…

Louise

Oxy:

Good night. Thanks so much for your help tonight! x

donna dixon

I just came from an evening out with friends. Or so I thought.
Maybe I am becoming suspicious of everyone around me. I know I am still reeling from the after math of a long marriage that went bad.

My son is engaged to be married within the next 9 months. Even though I have difficulty facing my ex spath at the ceremony I know I must do it. Tonight we were celebrating my daughter in laws birthday. I had sent a text message to her mother right after they were engaged saying “Goody for us” and Congratulating her on our kids engagement”. Never heard a word. Tonight when I asked her she said she got the text but was “just busy”. (This is a woman who I have spent time out with socially and partying….I thought we were friends). My heart fell. But then I realized I must not open my heart to anyone. I thought I had a good relationship with this mother who adored my son.

There have been a couple of other incidents that have happened with a couple of other so called “friends”. I am starting to believe I am a “lone wolf”. I don’t consider myself better than other but maybe “more caring”~ or “honest?”.

Is it possible that I am being too sensitive? I don’t think so.
I think I am just more in tune to my surroundings.

I hate to say this but I am almost dreading my son’s marriage. I will have to see my ex and his newest “gal pal”.
I know I do not want him back but my dreams flood back to me of seeing my ex and me (still married) at my son’s wedding as a happy loving couple. Just too much to soon, I guess.

I hope it does get easier. I am here writing at this hour because I believe it must.

Can anyone shed their thoughts? I am lost at the moment.

skylar

Hi ((Donna Dixon)),
yes, you are being too sensitive.
It’s possible she doesn’t like you. not everyone gets along with everyone. It doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with you or with her. It just means that you aren’t compatible. Maybe she is a narcissist, maybe not. There is no way for anyone to know without more data. But you were looking forward to being friends with her and now it doesn’t look that way, don’t worry about it or take it personally.

You aren’t a lone wolf. You have me. and I think you have many others here too. Sometimes, no, most of the time, I feel very alone too. We are very sensitive, we don’t always fit in. http://www.hsperson.com/

The study into the human condition is very new. join in. Do research. There is so much to learn and your insights are valuable.

I’m very happy for your son to be married, congrats, I wish him all the very best. There are no perfect people and there is no perfect life. He is moving forward and that’s what counts. Be at peace. Set an example. try your best. It’s all any of us NORMAL people can do. (hugs)

one/joy_step_at_a_time

donna dixon – there is one possibility that sky has missed in your soon to be inlaw’s response: the smear campaign. What has your ex been saying to them about you?

I don’t know the particulars of the situation, but is it possible that he is saying things to them?

skylar

One Joy,
you are right. But what can/should we do about the smear campaign? They are so good at it. It’s unbelievable.

I’m still afraid to go fix/sell/ rent my house because the spath has left SEVERAL trojan horses, including the cops, in my neighborhood. They are so evil. I’m much better at armchair quarterbacking than actually dealing with the spaths. When I was in the fight, I could do it, but now that I’m out, it’s really hard to get the gumption to go back in.

The spath tried to ensnare many of my neighbors. Some he succeeded. Others he brought in. Some he failed. It sucks to find out that some neighbors were so readily eager to kill me. But it’s good to know. When you have a spath in your life, he can serve a purpose.

Here’s the really scary part: I had one neighbor, whom I never even met but spath had lots of contact with her husband. She owned the house. Andy was her new husband. She got MS. Spath went over there all the time and came home to tell me how sad her condition was. She went blind from the MS. Her husband, Andy, was so strange. I called him “digital man” because his smiles came on so quick. It was like, no emotion, then BIG SMILE, then no emotion… whatever… anyway, they had to move, couldn’t pay bills because she was dying. Sold the house to a couple that was DEFINITELY ONE OF SPATHS ACCOMPLICES. I found a tape recording of spath and the bitch woman talking at the marina (on my video camera).

I’m convinced that he gave andy some poison to give to his wife so that they would have to move and the spathy couple could move in. I mean, if he poisoned me, why not the neighbor? OneJoy, I’m beginning to see that these people are everywhere. the only thing that made my spath more diabolical was his audacity and imagination. Most people don’t have that.

My spath did, yours was a close runner up.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

up late here, too. and i hear your new found (and I say to be applauded) refusal to engage with these turds.

damn robin thinks it’s dawn – STFU! between him and the drunken skateboarders there’s is little sleep tonight.

first off, i think you are a brilliant armchair critic – your incisiveness is a thing of beauty to watch. i think in donna dixon’s case we need to arm her with knowledge of how to deal with these folks if indeed their is a smear campagin underway.

audacity and imagination – spath has it in spades.

skylar

One Joy,
wouldn’t it be great if we could feed our spathst to each other? LOL!!!
My spath can beat your spath any day of the week. LOL!!
ROTFLOL!!!!
OK, i’m gonna get a patent on that bumper sticker. LOL!

Maybe I’ve been up too late…. I’m cracking myself up!!

Constantine

Dear Oxy,

Very nice article – I knew there was a point to all those years that I spent in Sunday School!

I had to form a sardonic grin today when I opened the morning paper to discover TWO stories about children murdering their parents! Can you believe that? One guy killed his dad and stepmom and then threw their bodies into a pond. The other article was about three teenagers in Minnesota who put a bag over their mother’s head and tied it with a belt until she suffocated! – all because she wanted them to play a game of Yahtzee (Apparently they had very stong feelings in the contrary direction.)

At any rate, while I’m usually prepared to agree with the statement that “there’s nothing new under the sun,” I really am starting to wonder if we aren’t in fact witnessing a gradual movement towards something novel and unprecedented. If not in kind, then at least in degree. Even making allowance for the fact that History has known some pretty lamentable and immoral epochs (Nero’s Rome, the England of Charles the Second, Stalin’s Russia, etc.), it’s starting to seem like we’ve taken the old theme of human depravity and carried it to a new level! If nothing else, I never thought things would get this bad in my lifetime…

That said, I would add to your comments that P.s are not only responsible for rape, wars, pillage, and so on, but have likewise a very significant role in the current financial and economic collapse. Whether we blame the unbridled narcissism of consumers, or the outright psychopathy of many “stockjobbers” and Wall Street swindlers, there is no question at all that they deserve a huge share of the responsibility for our present difficulties. (There are other factors, of course, but they are better left to other forums!)

Constantine

Dear Donna,

To answer your question, I would say that you probably ARE being oversensitive, but at the same time you are most likely correct in taking her failure to respond to your text as a “slight.” Of course, in a world where such inconsideration is all but the norm, it might be better to have a thicker skin. But unfortunately, that is something that is largely beyond one’s control!

I also agree with Onestep that this might have something to do with a “smear campaign” on the part of your ex. But even so, I would try to rise above the whole thing, and just look at it as so much pettiness that is beneath your dignity to notice.

Good Luck!

one/joy_step_at_a_time

sky – i started to riff on the feeding to each other thing. wrote it, looked at it, and deleted it. it would scare new folks. :mrgreen:

i thought i wrote this last night but i think you need some really big dudes to help you fix your place. BIG, brawny guys. we could put an ad on craigslist! (sorry, i am actually serious. where could you find some folks that would help?)

Back_from_the_edge

If we are spiritual beings, this encounter is double faceted in the sense that it actually shakes and rattles our faith in human decency and that which composes the thoughts of goodness.

If you relate our experiences in a ‘biblical’ sense, expounding all that is right, good and just, in any faith or belief, it suddenly proposes a new and different aspect to all of this:

The shaking of our very core values and beliefs.

Five years ago, when this experience began with me, 1,000%, almost to the point of my needing to be hospitalized – I felt as if I were truly going insane. I believe “IT” actually tried to drive me insane and I probably was for a few years there….

All manipulation and mind control.
The epidemy is that it overtakes us in a way…
The way that matters the most in this life…

Our very souls. If you find another way to ‘process’ all of the trauma associated with our respective “IT”S, we can move away from this phase of our lives and into the future. The future may be unknown, at this point, but one thing that “IS” known, we are going to be on a path to OURSELVES and away from “IT”.

I always wonder if I were becoming “like it” just associating with it. All of the little overtones that went un-noticed, by myself, I believe they affect us once we take recognition of them…

They sit down deep inside us and multiply like cockroaches until suddenly you just start thinking negative things and turning like the very monster we were so lovingly trying to defeat.

I wonder if there is anything to this?
I often have said: “I am trying real hard NOT to turn into the very monster I have been trying to defeat all these years.”

When you start thinking things such as this, they have won.
I refuse to let “IT” win. I know the difference between what is good and what is not. Conscious choice no matter how much it hurts….

“Step away from the darkness….”
“Walk towards the Light”…

I believe it is true.
Our basic sense of goodness has been rocked by our experiences and that is another ‘mark’ to judge by…

When we start questioning OURSELVES and we know better!
There is no way I am NOT going to make it through this.
It is making me ‘older’ real fast, but it’s part of life….

Dealing with the hard things. No one is immune.
Life can at once, be very ugly but so very beautiful.

Have a good weekend, all you Angels, out there…

Dupedster

Twice Betrayed

Joyce: thank you for writing this article! One of the best! I saved, printed and pegged it to my board, to read on a daily basis.

Ox Drover

Dear Constantine,

Good post and I agree with you entirely !

Donna Dixon,

I understand and yea, you probably ARE being very “sensitive” however, I THINK THERE IS VALIDITY IN YOUR “TAKE” on her lack of response….I also think that there has been some SMEAR CAMPAIGN as well..

And, in addition, some people feel that they should “choose sides” rather quickly and the one who gets there first with the DIRTY STORY is the one who “wins”—-

I am sorry that you must go to the wedding and “pretend that everything is lovely” when it surely is NOT. It is one of those “social niceities” that we supposedly must do in order to “keep the peace” and be “social” whether or not we feel like it.

There are so many of these occasions when we are expected to do this to keep everyone else happy….but I am coming to the conclusion that I am not going to participate in such situations unless I AM WILLING and the price is not too “high.”

I hope for you Donna that by the time the wedding comes around that you will be in a better frame of mind and more able to tolerate such a day! (((hugs))))

Ox Drover

TB, you are welcome sweetie! I am glad it resonated with you, we just have to realize and accept that the children we bore and loved chose a path toward wickedness, and that we cannot save them from themselves. (((hugs)))) and God bless.

Recovering

I need help! Apathy texted yesterday asking if I was still pregnant. I figured it would be a matter of time before he would find a way to ease his way back into communicating with me. I still haven’t responded and I don’t think that I will. I am no longer pregnant so there’s no sense in answering his question. I know he’s only trolling for old supply anyway because there’s no way he could genuinely care about a pregnancy after the way he treated me when I initially told him. I just need some advice. But I think I’m better off just ignoring him. Spaghetti are pretty predictable and I’m sure a response would only lead into a convinced to see where my head is. Help!

Ox Drover

Dear Farwronged,

HOLD ON TIGHT! Don’t respond, you are RIGHT, he does not care, he is using any excuse in the world to get a dialog going so he can get back into your head/heart/life.

You are RIGHT a response is the LAST THING THAT IS GOOD FOR YOU….NC, NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH….good [email protected]

behind_blue_eyes

I like the emphasis on lying and deceit:

“…signaling their deceit with a wink of the eye…”

Several of the photos my x-spath uses online are disturbing because of the look in his eyes. For one in particular, signaling deceit with a wink of the eye describes it better than I could ever have.

Yes, he lies when the truth, or better yet even something other than a lie would be acceptable.

Ox Drover

BBE, Yea, I liked that “signaling their deceit” part too….because they want you to know they are being deceitful….”winking” about it, laughing about it as well. My P-son wants an AUDIENCE, it makes the “con” all the better because he gets away with it.

Constantine

Dear Farwronged,

Yes, I say let him sweat it! As soon as you contact him, no matter what you say, he will take that as a sign of weakness/interest, and you will thereby surrender your power. Besides, nothing good can ever come of throwing yourself back into his toxic drama.

Speaking of which, I hope that you are also keeping firm with N/C Dupedster! (You mentioned a bit of “wobbling” the other day…) At any rate, if either of you ever happen to get tempted, just remember that this is basically “Neanderthal Male Psychology 101”: where ANY form of contact will always meet with the reaction of, “Ha ha, she still can’t stop thinking about me!” Really, this is how it works. Even if you are yelling at him and telling him how much you hate him, he will only hear you saying, “But I’m still interested even though I despise you!” – and he will be half right. Which is why indifference and no contact are the most devastating weapons at your disposal.

Indeed, when you show the Neanderthal complete indifference, THAT really will drive him crazy! Because he will correctly interpret it as, “Oh, man, she really DID mean what she said about wanting me out of her life!” (The paradox, of course, is that since you can’t actually talk to him, you have to picture this reaction in your IMAGINATION. But trust me, this is how things will play out.)

Anyhow, have a nice weekend you two, and all the best to you!

candy

farwronged – Hang in there Far. He is just trying to hook you in. He does not give a shite about you, the lost pregnancy, all he cares about is HIM. NC NC NC

Ox Drover

Constantine,

GREAT POST!!!! RIGHT ON!!!!! YEA!!!!!!

ANY notice is + for them, even if you are sending the “po-leece” you are NOTICING THEM.

Twice Betrayed

Ox: You are Joyce! I did not even know that!!!!!! TOO COOL!

It did ring with your wisdom, no doubt about it! â¤

Constantine

Oxy –

Yes, it seems to be one of the great ironies of human existence, that when we chase after things in a state of craving and desire, they have a tendency to flee from us. But precisely when we stop wanting them or caring about them altogether – well, that’s when they end up forming a line at one’s front doorstep!

Ox Drover

Constantine,

I noticed, too, during the one year that none of us (even my egg donor) corresponded with P son or sent him money, the letters he wrote were a HOOT! He used the pity ploy, then the anger, then this and then that to try to get my egg donor to contact him. He contacted EVERYONE he knew to get them to call my egg donor to see “if she was okay” since she had not written him….LOL

Of course, eventually she did crumple and write him back and send him money….but ANY contact, even cussing them out in a blue streak is ATTENTION and they don’t care if it is negative or positive, it is attention. If they can get your attention, they can HOOK YOU…it is ONLY when we ignore them, refuse to have any contact that we can indeed BREAK FREE of their clutches.

Twice Betrayed

I have a little story. I was just thinking about Florida, the system and P’s and remembered this incident.

The second time we moved to Florida I was with a real estate agency, looking for a place to lease, until the closing on the house we purchased, which was going to be six months, because the owners were transferring to CA. In the meantime, I came across this place listed in the paper. The ad read: “Nice cottage available for lease to couple with small children. Perfect for second marriage honeymoon, where your small children are free to play while you enjoy time together.” We had one small daughter. After contacting this person [male], he gave me directions to the place. WOW! I almost never found it. It was on a secluded street, totally surrounded by water [found that out AFTER going inside]. Inside a gate, was a totally enclosed HIGH wall, with a large garage door that opened when he coded us in! NOTHING visible from the street but gate/door. RED flag. Cottage with two sides; he claimed to live in the other side with his GM, whom he said was bedfast and asleep. [we were stuck there several hours [waiting for a nonexistent real estate agent, apparently] and he never checked on her nor did I hear anything coming from that area]. Later we found out he would continue to live in the other side of the cottage sharing the kitchen with whomever leased the place. He was a VERY strange looking character and cautioned my daughter about the lake, saying he recently stocked it with some aggressive fish…???? OK, perfect for kids????? Anyway, after offering us a glass of ice cold lemonade [which I ditched down the potted plant in the corridor when he was not looking], he proceeded to chat in circles about various odd topics. I noticed large photos of children on his table and picked them up. He saw me looking at them and said: “Wondering who and where those kids are? I killed them and they are in the attic.” Then laughed. I didn’t laugh. My now X husband who was/is a P just kinda gave me a wide eyed look. We were working our way outta there ASAP. As we started to exit the place, he said: “I have to price this higher for you all.” And proceeded to double the lease price. Obviously to keep us from leasing, which he had NO worries about at all. I thought about reporting him, but had nothing to report except conversation. Heck, Granny could have been dead and gone, for all we knew. But, still, what would I have said? It’s bothered me over the years.

Ox Drover

TB…back when I had that interview on Aftermath radio I decided to “come out of the closet!” I sent Donna a pix of me and my ox “Jim” at a living history event, and set up an e mail address at G mail so anyone who wanted to from LF could contact me directly (without giving away my entire life history and physical address LOL) But actually, if they really wanted it they could get it here off LF cause there is not much I have “not told” LOL But I am tired of living in the closet and protecting the psychopathic son of mine. The shame is HIS NOT MINE.

Louise

Twice Betrayed:

Wow, what an encounter!!! I feel slimed just reading it! Glad you got out of there fast!

Ox Drover

TB, WOW!!! RED BANNERS WAVING AWAY!

First off I think that the man was trolling for kids, and was probably a pedophile. To advertise for “perfect for kids” when there was water all around the place that a kid could drown in…and secondly to “share” a kitchen?????? DING!!! DING!!!!! DING!!!!

Yea, I probably (back then) would not have “reported” it either, but NOW I DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE….Once 8-10 years ago, I came on a car with a toddler in a car seat locked inside on a HOT DAY and no adult anywhere. It took me 15-20 minutes to locate “mommy” and I NICELY told her that her child was in danger and she screamed at me and went to the car and left.

TODAY: I would call 911 immediately, and then while I had 911 on the phone, I would reach into the back of my pick up, get a tire iron and break out a window of the car to get to the child.

I have started to look at things entirely differently than I used to, now that I have realized how I “minimized” BAD behavior in the past, and how I MINIMIZED my gut instincts….

I no longer accept bad behavior and I no longer allow myself to diminish my instincts or to “explain them away.”

Back_from_the_edge

Hi Constantine ~ Just here reading a little and to answer you…
No; I have not broken NC. I just hope my temper cooperates. 🙂 You are correct, I know you are. About the ‘attention’ thing…

Negative or positive, it’s attention and it’s not worth it.
I have been disciplining myself to GIVE ME the attention instead!

Hope you are well and doing alright.
In fact, I hope EVERYONE here is doing alright this day.

I have been very busy with my avoidance behaviors.

OX: I know what you mean: “I no longer accept bad behavior and I no longer allow myself to diminish my instincts or to ‘explain them away’.”

Well, I got the not accepting bad behavior part down really, really, WELL but the ‘instinct’ part, I am working on. There is NO explanation for the crap we have been put through. Just acceptance and choices and action.

I am learning ~ learning to not be so nice anymore.
I don’t know if I like that feeling…

Take care you guys ~ have an awesome weekend.

DUPEDSTER

Twice Betrayed

Ox: Well, how cool is that! You have an ox named Jim! LOLOLOL! You are just the coolest character chocked full of wisdom! ♡ WAYYYYYYYY cool! 🙂

I know, Ox, I am the same way. Things change after we live awhile. We know those little ‘pings’ mean something and signify deeper issues. That’s terrible to leave a child [or animal] in a hot car!!!!!!! They can die pretty quickly!

Louise: funny thing is: I have forgotten a lot of things and this has been almost twenty years ago, but this guy’s face is clear in my mind. Looking back and knowing what I know now, he had P eyes. I’ve come to be able to recognize those eyes/stare. My PX’s eyes in later years had started to become reptilian and I thought this long before I read any material. I’ve also noticed in dark eyes, the pupils seem to become almost invisible.

Twice Betrayed

Duped: I’ll tell you how I let that instinct roll….it’s kinda like an animal…I get a little twitch right behind my ears and my eyes kinda move to the left…and my brain goes; “uh oh…” 🙂 But, I had to become ‘aware’ of that.

Ox Drover

I was walking out in the woods behind the barn with my son D one day a while back and we came upon a rabbit that was grazing in a clear spot. We were being followed by some birds as well, and one of the birds chirped and “warned” the rabbit that there was someone approaching…D and I stopped and watched the rabbit’s response to the bird’s calls…how he looked around while he sat frozen, wondering if he needed to head for cover. D and I stood very still and he finally decided it was “safe” to go back to eating, but when we moved again, the birds called to him and he scooted away though he actually never saw us I don’t think.

When we become AWARE of the “chirps” all around us that signal “DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!” we should not minimize those warnings. Sometimes we can not put our “finger on” what the danger is, but we should still be VERY CAREFUL where we step!

Ox Drover

ps TB—“Jim” has gone to that great “Barn in the Sky,” but he will always be one of my favorite creatures! I picked that photograph because it is one of my favorites and I wanted a pix of the “Ox Drover” rather than just a face shot.

Twice Betrayed

Ox: I LOVE that and ALL animals stories! That made me smile! 🙂
It’s amazing how the creatures communicate with one another. I saw a squirrel dead in the road by my house, guess it was hit by a car, although not torn up. Poor little guy. I went on to work and when I was returning for lunch, I stopped my car! There in the road were two live squirrels dragging their dead buddy off the roadway! AMAZING! I thought to myself, “Dear God, why me? Nobody will believe me, as much as I love animals, they will think I made it up.” But, so help me, it’s true!

“Danger, Will Robinson!”…..AHAHAHAHA! Lost in Space!!!!!!!!!
You are right, we may not know what it is…but that little ping needs to be heeded. I HEED! 🙂

Jim is in the big barn in the sky! AWWWWWW! I’ve got some horses running in those green pastures! â¤

Ox Drover

Dear TB,

Yea, the comment about your horses in those pastures made me “tear up” thinking about old “Jim” he and his partner, “Red” were my first pair of Highland Oxen (working steers) and I had so much fun with them!

Twice Betrayed

Ox: I think of my black horse Black Velvet and his buddy Renegade-over the rainbow bridge. I understand, Ox! Those were my daughter’s first two horses. I loved them. One is buried right outside my window here and one is buried at her house.

Those must have been cool oxen! Makes me think of Paul Bunyan and Babe!

Hugs to you, Ox! â¤

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