Lovefraud received the following e-mail from a woman whose daughter is caught in the web of a sociopath. The woman and her husband are not enabling the relationship—the sociopath, of course, wants money. They are hoping and praying that their daughter will escape.
Here is her question to other Lovefaud readers:
What was the “turning point,” “awakening moment,” “realization point,” that woke them up OUT of the fog, the gaslighting, etc., and what made them realize they needed to RUN, to get away from their sociopaths? Â What finally “did it,” what finally “broke the camel’s back?” Â Where they realized what was happening to them, had been done to them, when they finally realized things were NEVER going to “get better?”
There must be a “trigger” here somewhere. I’m just trying to grasp what it’s going to take. Â What is going to have to happen to jar her awake from this brainwashing/fog?
My experience
I remember the moment for me.
I knew my husband, James Montgomery, was lying to me, although I didn’t realize the extreme extent of the lies. I knew all my money was gone; my husband had spent about $227,000, much of it carelessly. I suspected he was cheating on me, and when I discovered proof, I left him.
Still, even after I left him, I thought my husband was just one of those guys who can’t stay faithful. I did not realize that my entire marriage was a scam right from the beginning.
The real moment of truth came when I called one of the women my husband appeared to be involved with. According to bank records I’d found, she had given him $6,000. The conversation went like this:
“I’m Donna Andersen. I’m James Montgomery’s wife, and I’d like to suggest that you don’t give him any more money.”
“It’s too late. I already gave him $92,000.”
I almost dropped the phone. And with that conversation, I realized that my husband had married me for the specific purpose of taking my money. That was all.
Your moment of truth
This reader has asked a really important question, one that may glean some possible approaches from helping people escape the sociopathic trap. So please post your experience.
What did it for you? When did you finally realize that you had to get out?
justdreamin I have to say that this is a very profound statement:
My turning point was when my loyalty shifted from HIM to my SELF.
You nailed it.
It is what I am trying to teach my daughters.
What triggers my reply is that not too long ago my eldest (11) related to me a story about her father saying mean things to her and she cried and he said ” if you think I’m so awful why don’t you go to your mother’s?” – she was just crushed. I told her – “next time sweetheart say to him ” Daddy I think that is a good idea, do you want to call her or should I?” She expressed fear about saying such a thing as it would hurt his feelings.
Imagine this LoveFraud friends, my 11 year old daughter is concerned for her 56 year old father’s feelings when he is not concerned for hers! I pointed out to her the incongruity – that as a parent it was his job to be concerned about her and not the other way around. I assured her that she could call me anytime and that if she did this he would probably adjust his behavior as it would deeply embarrass him. The most important point I tried to stress to her is that her feelings need to matter to her more than his. That in life her feelings of safety and peace need to be more important than what others MIGHT feel particularly when they are engaging in cruel or manipulative ways.
Finally_Phoenix I too chose to leave my children’s father, only I did it when they were young as I could see the writing on the wall. He is not an N/S/P but he definitely has severe emotional issues. He was gaslighting me and passive aggressive to a degree that was soul killing. I was nearly suicidal before I could truly take action to leave.
In the beginning of our divorce he blamed it all on me and told the children how he had loved me but it was just not enough for me. (Ha)
For the first 4.5-5 years I took “right action” and acted with as much grace and dignity that I could muster. I have treated him with kindness at every turn and worked to support his relationship with the girls. When they complain about him I explain that he is doing the best he can, he is flawed, I am flawed, we are all imperfect and not to personalize it (in so many words).
Today – 6 years plus after I left – as they mature instead of wishing we were still married as many children do when their parents divorce, my two express gratitude that I did the “difficult thing” and gave them a happy home. They know that had I stayed with him the stress would have been horrendous for me and they would not be able to escape him. They can see it now.
I use the situation to help them develop coping skills for their relationship with him and their future relationships. The pay off is that they learn to deal with people who are less than pleasant and they also learn early that other people’s bad behavior –> IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM. I also work to teach them about N/S/P’s – to teach them that some people are so flawed they are toxic and therefore not safe to be around at all. Those people are other chapters of my life and what brought me here….
Finally_Phoenix – I hope you are proud of yourself for what you are doing. Sometimes it takes years to see the blessings hidden in the pain. Regarding your children not having a father, your good friends, uncles etc can often fill that gap. While we do not have much of that available I use the good men that are married to my friends and my relatives that unfortunately live thousands of miles away – as examples of what to look for and how decent men treat the people they love. I believe a bad father/mother is worse for a child than no father/mother.
May your path be clear and your load lighten as you move forward.
xox Breckgirl
Oxy – Your comment about becoming indifferent is a gem.
It is truly an effective tool and it can definitely take work to develop the strength to detach but so worth it.
The peace of mind, the ability to look at the S/P/N’s in my life like they are zoo animals – “whooops – there they go again – doing – saying that crazy thing…” or “wow look how long it took this visit for something evil to come out of her mouth…” such a blessed relief when you develop the skill and once you strengthen your indifference muscle with one disordered person you only need to flex it when you meet another and you can be protected.
Breckgirl,
It does get easier I believe as we “flex that muscle” and realize that “I DON’T HAVE TO TAKE NO CHEET OFF NOBODY”— we don’t even have to stop and think about it, our REFLEX just takes over. NOPE, NOT GONNA TAKE THAT STUFF, I’M OUT OF HERE.
This January when I went to Texas to visit the woman who had been my “best friend” for 30 years, I really hadn’t ever spent much time with her alcoholic husband during that time, but he is retired now and home all the time….and I got my CAN FULL OF HIM before long and when he got SNOTTY with me, I just packed up my toys and came home.
My friend is also VERY DEPRESSED and unhappy, and I can sure see why, but she is NOT going to deal with it…and you know what, it is HER PROBLEM NOT MINE. I loved this woman like a sister and I am really sad that she is in a miserable marriage that she is not going to be able to “fix” and will instead just “endure” because she doesn’t really realize there is some way to deal with it besides be a door mat to an alcoholic who is an asshole, she’s 64 years old….hes 66 and neither of them is going to change, except it will just continue to rot and fester and she will continue to be more depressed and unhappy and he will continue to be a drunk emotional abuser.
It is a shame, but you know what, it didn’t take me long to get ready to come home, and I didn’t grieve over the “loss” of my friendship with her. I still care for her, but the friendship is over, and that’s a shame, but it is NOT SOMETHING OVER WHICH I HAVE CONTROL. Not all friendships last a life time, and this one had many wonderful and supportive moments and I am glad that I have the memories of those times, but as long as the situation is what it is, there’s not anything I can do to “fix” it.
I no longer grieve over NOT BEING ABLE TO FIX SOMETHING. I am more accepting of things being out of my control. Just having finally the wisdom to know the difference between things I can fix and things I can’t and not being frustrated trying to fix things I can’t—things that are really NOT my problems.
I remember the times I was learning to set boundaries for some “friends” (people who were NOT really friends and never had been) and I caught one woman actually in the act of STEALING and I was devastated that I had “embarrassed her” EMBARRASSED HER NO LESS! I cried for 3 days!!!!!! LOL
Can you even imagine how ashamed I felt that SHE had been CAUGHT STEALING! LOL And it wasn’t the first time I had caught her stealing either. I look back now and I think just how TWISTED I was to feel that way. The woman was a psychopath and had shown me 100 times she was and still I was afraid, scared to death of, HURTING HER FEELINGS.
Well, you know…I no longer worry about people being hurt by me setting boundaries. My boundaries are reasonable I think, and if they aren’t reasonable in your opinion, then you don’t have to be my “friend.”
I don’t trust DIS-honest people, doesn’t matter to me if you are stealing from the office supply cabinet at work, cheating on your taxes, or not giving the clerk back the extra $10 that he gave you in change….if you are not HONEST with everyone, you will eventually be dishonest with ME.
I don’t trust people who are UN-kind…if you are hateful and say nasty things to others just because you are angry or cross…push and shove and act and feel “entitled” to be first you will eventually be UNkind to ME when you decide you have a “reason” to be UNkind to me.
If you are a liar, I don’t trust you, and won’t trust you—if you lie to your friends, family, boss, or anyone else, you will eventually LIE TO ME…and if I can’t trust you, we don’t have much of a relationship, so I don’t need you close in my life.
Those boundaries are pretty “broad” but I also try to live within them myself, I try to be truthful, respectful, honest and kind to those around me, but I also set limits and boundaries for those things I will tolerate and those I will not. Deliberate unkindness and dishonesty and people who think and act that way are not good “friends.”
Here we go again…I got tossed out of my earlier post…My Spath – narcissist, are they the same? – and I were together a total of 7 years…we’ve been apart for 1-1/2 years…. when I’d finally had enough. I began planning to leave in late spring and was in my new place by September. Today I’ve known him for almost 9 years. True, there were no kids involved because we are both older, yet my experience, for me, was hell. He, on the other hand, thoroughly enjoyed stoking the fires of hell.
In the beginning, he was a completely different person than the ways listed below.
My turning point was a series of turning points. Thankfully, I was a strong woman, had many women friends and groups I belonged to…which I think kept me somewhat sane.
Our relationship was not sexual because he is impotent…he’s now 72. I was 54 back then in 2002. I had waited a long time to find someone. Even if he was impotent, there are many other reasons to have a relationship. So, it was a no brainer for me. Well….LOL…I guess this whole thing has been a no brainer…but there is much more involved than just the brain, ‘eh?
I stayed for financial reasons, also. One of the big turning points was planning a trip for us to go to the Peach Festival, a 4 day, 5 hour trip. It’s in a scenic part of our state with geological interest…much more than just the festival. In a way, I was making a last ditch effort to rejuvenate our failing relationship (failing for me). I mentioned it to him and began researching lodging, etc. About a month before, I chatted with him. He told me he didn’t want to go…it was too hot, too this, too that, not enough of that. We had a very nice comfortable air conditioned car. NO, NO, NO…did not want to go. So, that was that. I didn’t want to go alone. I was extremely disappointed.
Some background…Rich has a 50 y/o never-married son. Rich’s wife, deceased since 1999. Married 40 years!! No surprise…he and wife were not close. Each treated their son like their spouse…icky…very unhealthy for son as well as them…son is about 6 y/o emotionally. Rich treats his son as if son is his wife…and son reacts to his father as if his father is his husband. Rich must see his son weekly and talks to him on phone an hour every night. Between must-watch TV and phone call, there is no time for anything else.
When Rich and I were first together, 2002, we took a shopping/lunch trip each week down to the valley. Silly me, I thought the reason we took these trips was so that we could be together. It hasn’t been until the past 6 months or so, after I’ve had a chance to reflect on and try to process everything – that I’ve realized the ONLY reason we took that day trip each week was so that Rich could see his 50 y/o unmarried son…not to be with me at all. I could have stayed home. I was off during the week, but Rich always HAD to go on days his son was off…weekends. Part of his abuse was to berate me for not wanting to go with him.
One of his favorite entertainments was to bomb me with comments about my driving. He said he was too tired to drive, which I do think was true. I was driving back up the canyon and had pulled over to let a tailgater pass. This infuriated him…he would tell me I didn’t know how to drive, why was I pulling over, why didn’t I speed up (I drive too fast anyway, so speeding up would not be safe), didn’t I know that was no way to deal with a tailgater…on and on and on.
This last time in 2008…he began screaming at me hysterically. When he was done, I said to him “If you talk to me like that one more time, I am pulling over, and you can drive the rest of the way home.” He didn’t say another single word the rest of the trip.
Also during the last year we were together….in 2008, we were standing at the kitchen counter, shoulder to shoulder. He turned and put his mouth up to my ear and starting screaming at me at the top of his voice. This shook me to my core…I calmly went into another room and closed the door…and sobbed from a very deep place. It didn’t have anything to do with him, yet it did. I did not want him to see my vulnerability.
I had always treated him with love and kindness. It was genuine. The kitchen incident changed me and I don’t know if I’ll ever be the same again.
Each time he’d scream and act out, I’d talk to him later – calmly, kindly…ask him if he knew why he did that. He always said – sheepishly yet craftily (an odd combination? My eyes now open wide..I just “got” it this moment… wolf in sheep’s clothing?) – he didn’t know. Always apologized. Later, I usually said something about why he would do that to someone he cared about. He didn’t know. He said he’d TRY not to do it again. I’d say “Try?” And, he always did within a few weeks or a month, waiting until he could catch me completely off guard with his impeccable timing.
This time – the kitchen incident, later I asked him the same questions and comments. What I added was that I knew that people who cared about each other don’t scream at the people they care about. That I didn’t want to be treated that way and that possibly I wouldn’t want to stay with someone who treated me that way. This was the point where I fell out of love with him forever. It was a huge turning point.
BTW…he doesn’t treat his son that way at all. Raised his son to be his carbon copy…son behaves in his pre-conditioned way. Any time his son has witnessed a minor episode of his father’s bad behavior, he goes to a far, far away place and removes himself from being present with what is going on.
But, his son is also playing his role, because he wants his father’s assets. This didn’t become clear to me until the past few months. His father, my Spath, now lives on a property that his son picked out…for himself (the son). My former Spath is so full of piss and vinegar that he could outlive both me and his son…and I think he will. Healthy as a horse at 72.
I’ve always felt that his son would do NOTHING if his father became ill…he would just wait for him to die. Before I moved out, I had my name as contact on Rich’s med records, because from what Rich told me, the son was indifferent to all of that. He’d commented “You’re just old.” I don’t see Rich as old. That made me angry…because if I was there, I’d make sure everything was being done for Rich’s comfort, etc. I didn’t trust his son. Today? His son’s name is listed as contact. Good riddance!
When we’d been together for 2 years, he told me matter-of-factly that he didn’t like women, or pregnant women (disgusting and fat). If he had girl children, he wouldn’t want to have anything to do with them. He had two boys, one of whom died when he was 22…in the 80’s.
As the result of all the above turning points, they all rolled into a big turning point. What I have written here is by no means all, but the intensity had been escalating. No matter how scared I was about being able to make it financially , I could not afford – emotionally and mentally – to stay with this unconscionable, ugly, rageful person.
I had lost a very good paying job in 2008…incidentally due to another sociopath – at work! In small towns, these jobs are few and far between.
This brings me to one of the most significant “final straws”…the job loss. The next day after I lost the job, I went out and found a low-paying job as a caregiver for a home health agency. At least I could pay my modest bills and not sit around thinking about the sociopath who had just destroyed a big part of my life…and lost a job that I loved.
On this same day, in the morning, Rich walked into my computer room and said “Oh! I know why they got rid of you. It’s because of your age!” I jumped up and told him not to say another word. He knows all about the sociopath that I worked with for years, and he “doesn’t get it”. HA!
True, I am older…and am an extremely young-looking “older” person…especially then when I was slim back then.
Back to the caregiving job…I was fortunate that there was lots of work from this agency. One of my main clients lived high in the mountains with a winter horror driveway. I had a large front wheel drive, great on snowy flatlands, but could not make it up steep icy inclines.
When snow and ice came, I asked Rich to use one of his 4-wheel drive vehicles when I went to this patient’s home. I knew there would be no driving problems if I took that kind of vehicle.
A little background on the drive to this patient’s mountain home…during the time I worked there, several of our caregivers drove 4-wheel drives to her home…these gals were very experienced drivers on snow and ice…even these two gals slid over the edge of her driveway and had to be towed out.
We had been together for 6 years by this time, and he knew I was a safe, responsible driver. Well…he hemmed and hawed around about my using one of his cars…he has three 4-wheel drive cars!!! He hemmed and hawed so much that I thought I’d have a nervous breakdown because I desperately needed to work, and without that 4-wheel drive, I’d be losing my only source of income. We lived in a small town where jobs dry up in the winters…I was lucky to have any job at this point.
I never asked him for money or to pay any of my bills, and I wasn’t about to start that even though I’d lost my job. I think the way he handled this is indicative of a Spath. He saw how much effort I was putting into handling the aftermath of losing my wonderful job…and he wanted to torture me because it made him feel good. He was a master at these kinds of things. Never once did he appear to be supportive of me during the time when I lost my job. He was indifferent, antagonizing, uncaring, and certainly not kind in any way.
Each time I went to work and used the 4-wheel drive, he would hem and haw around…he was a jackaxx. I have post-traumatic stress already, and the way he treated me during this difficult time sent me over the edge each time I would get ready to drive to work. I wanted to sit down and sob my guts out…instead I sucked it up and waited for him to do his torture dance and get it over with. I know he enjoyed this tremendously….because I knew him so well back then.
Even after I moved out in 9/2009, that winter, I was still working up in the mountains…I had thought I’d have another job by then, but the job situation wasn’t working out like I thought it would. He continued to hem and haw, but what could I do? I was filling up the car with gas, being responsible. He would eventually agree to my borrowing his car, but the price I paid almost wasn’t worth it. BTW, I did buy a different car for work, so I stopped using his. Yaaaay!
I don’t want this relationship back…what I want is to be free from all of the ruminations, memories, self-recrimination for having red flags and blowing them off…the “fiddle-de-dee syndrome”. I think it’s gonna take a while longer…
Dear Emi,
Yea, it takes a WHILE, I am glad that you are at least free of him and not having to submit to his tirades and verbal and emotional abuse.
It is all about control, and that is what they do….keep on reading and learning and growing toward healing. It gets easier the longer you are NC…he and his son apparently deserve each other. Two peas in a pod. God bless.
Ox Drover…what a story you have to tell! You used the word ‘pariah’ to describe the term we become after the Spath manages to turn everyone against us. I’d never realized what that word meant and it’s a good way to describe what we symbolize once they start their campaign to destroy us. In my experience, they are able to do an excellent job at that. It is amazing how the majority of people don’t see through that at all and take what the Spath says at face value. This is one of the hardest things to grasp about the Spath. Their victims would never do that, nor would they even THINK about doing something like that. Maybe – as has been discussed in this forum – it’s because we were raised to be good and honorable people. This is why becoming a pariah hurts so much. Ox Drover, thank you for all the kind, supportive comments on this log. When we take the high road, as you are doing to protect your children and yourself, eventually only we can feel a sense of doing the right thing…and that is what will matter the most in the long run. Hopefully, the kids won’t be influenced by what their father does and will see the truth. Learn from all you moms out there who demonstrate through their actions what doing the right thing is. I hope that all of us have a better day today. Love, Emi
My turning point was when I found out my ex sociopath husband had gotton his 16 year old daughter pregnant. The little girl we had every other weekend that he had passed off to me as his “grandaughter” was actually his daughter. Explained why we had her everyother weekend. Actually it explained alot of questions I had regarding the” grandaughter”.
I’ve lived with knowing this for 5 years and really don’t know what to do with it. He had been investigated twice already and he made his daughter lie to the authorities.As we know sociopaths are expert manipulators..well, mine was. so as of now he runs scott free. The state in which he lives already investigated it twice and they won’t investigate it again. Not only that I do not wish to interrupt my ex step daughters life…she is married now and has a couple more kids but yet he gets to run free. Don’t know what to do…..
Thank you all so much for your words and support. I feel so honoured and blessed by them. And by the three children that I am raising alone. Yes, I hope too that he stays far away. I’m exhausted but having him in my life would only make things much worse. I just get so frustrated sometimes, I can live without a lot of things or having anything but I can’t handle not having enough food for the kids. A friend invited us for dinner the other night and I almost cried, watching my children eat ravenously because there was a big spread on the table, something they aren’t used to anymore. I often times don’t eat so that they can… My oldest son is 12 and eats like a horse!!! And I just had my bloodwork done and my family doctor said that my iron level is at 6. The average person is between 50 to 100!!! I’m a 6! She said she doesn’t know how I function and lectured me on eating but I can’t afford to buy as much food as we can eat! So I’ve had to swallow a lot of pride and ask friends for help. It’s so hard… Paying off the debt he left me, paying all the bills I have. And he kept everything… All of our furniture, appliances… So I rented houses that are furnished and signed a long term lease, although the rent is high and I struggle to keep up. My middle son who is 10 has watched me struggle and watched me buy food on a tight budget and bless him, he started a veggie garden from seeds that he would collect from things I’ve cooked and cut up in the kitchen. He has 27 tomato plants, eggplant, cucumber, capsicum(green pepper), peas, pumpkin… He goes and picks tomatoes and cucumbers for us for salads. He’s so beautiful. He loves his garden. It’s been really healing for him, to grow food and have something to take care of. I am so proud of him.Ă‚Â
I try to look on the bright side of everything… The kids are so amazing. So strong and resilient. I will definitely check out that book! I worry that his influence on them in their early years will be a problem for them. I know he’s waiting for the right time when they are older to creep in and try to play the poor me, your mother was so evil, look what she did to me… But the kids already see through him as he tried that one several times before. My sons are trying to stand beside me now, no longer behind me, needing protection. They are strong men who love our family and want to protect us from his harm. But they are children, and I remind them of that, and that it’s my job to protect them and keep them safe. But I can see how they will be when they are older. We all love each other so much and talk so openly. They will always be loved, supported, and safe with me. I hope their dad stays away. What a very strange and sad thing to say. Not too many understand that statement, only you, really. And I can’t thank you enough for your support through this!!! Ă‚Â
Phoenix,…..
YOU are a fabulous mama!!!!! But I just have to say, as hard as it is raising kids alone (I have two teenage boys at home that eat me out of house and home!), you really need to keep up your own health. You MUST eat. I understand about NOT eating so that your children can, but I had to put a stop to that somehow because of the many health issues I have that require a nutritious balanced diet. I don’t mean to demean or pry, but is there anyway you can get any type of assistance at all? Food stamps? Or are you in the lovely category of “I make too much, but not enough”? I found a place near where I live called “gleaners”. They give out free food in exchange for volunteering for them once or twice a month and BOY are the food boxes HUGE and with healthy stuff too. Can you check around and see if there is anything like that in your community, perhaps through social services? My son even volunteered for this organization for awhile. He loved it!
Phoenix, if you don’t take care of YOU first, you won’t be able to keep up taking care of THEM. YOU are a priority so that YOU can be the best energetic mom on the planet 🙂 If you don’t take care of yourself, physically, even with something as simple as eating, you’re going to get really sick and that will also affect your emotional health.
There is no shame in asking for help, Phoenix. With everything you’ve been through and all you’re trying to do, you deserve that. It’s a healthy kick start from what has been so unbelievably toxic.
Part of being the best Mom you can be is to take care of your first.
Also, Phoenix, kids are SUUUUUUPER observant. They may not share it, but I can tell you, that even if you say nothing, the kids know that you’re suffering in some way. Please take care of yourself. They don’t need the added burden of worrying about you too 🙂 Trust me on this one, Chica. My kids new I was suffering, even with the I”m great and everything is fine attitude.
Take care of YOU!
Phoenix – Sounds like you are going through the mill but just about have your head above water.
Well done to your son for helping out, he’s a credit to you.
not sure what country you are in but here’s a few things that helped me.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY OFF THE DEBT
Go to the CAB – they will work out what you can afford to pay your creditors (may be as little as Ă‚ÂŁ1 week)
Your credit will be shot but what the hell.
Take the help from friends and family (don’t be so proud you let yourself go under)
LL is right – if you are ill what happens to the kids?
Do a car boot – anything you don’t need, sell it.
Change your utilities provider – it’s usually a lot cheaper if you switch
Maybe reduce your house/car insurance – you may be paying over the odds anyway!
Look at your bank statement – if there is anything on there you don’t absolutely need cancel it.
Go to the school – they usually have a ‘lost property box’ you can get school clothes from there.
Ask about meal/milk vouchers for the kids.
If you have a wood fire get yourself a little cart and go under the trees – there’s lots of free wood!
Cook potatoes/carrots/swede in the same pan (saves heat and washing up!)
Phew! I could write a book about saving money – I became an expert …..
Your children may not ‘have’ everything but please believe me when I say that they will grow up BETTER people for it.
My daughter still makes me cards …. it’s a joy to receive them and they mean so much more.
It’s amazing how much fun we had making something out of nothing.
Yes I used to get the ‘why can’t I have xyz?’ and I used to be straight and say I didn’t have the money. My daughter got a paper round. She opened her own bank account and now is very careful with her money as a result.
It will work out but if you want it to change YOU have to change it. That’s not easy cos we are so busy trying to survive!
You are a credit to all parents trying to raise their kids on a shoe string. Well done.
Stay strong 🙂