Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
If the poster truly thinks her ex is a sociopath, then if it were me I would hand those papers right over. I understand what she is saying about being tired of giving in, but by not giving in on this particular issue, I think she has to look at what she is gaining and what she is losing. I can’t see where she is gaining anything other than more turmoil in her life. If she is upset and fighting with the ex, then her stress will carry over into her home environment with her kids.
I hold the opinion that if the person is truly a sociopath, then he is dangerous. Period. They can wait a long time for revenge, and they will seek vengenance and to win. So, is it worth it to her to withhold a few documents. If he loses this battle he is likely going to pick a bigger one to win, and one that may be alot more important to her than a few documents. Wouldn’t be worth the risk to me.
On the issue of the child, I would suggest that she read all of Dr. Leedom’s posts about raising the at risk child and then apply that knowledge to both her and her child’s benefit. Instead of spending my energy fighting the sociopath on small battles, I would spend my energy creating a loving and inviting environment for my child so that he would want to stay in my home with me. And if she does that, even if the child leaves for awhile to live with the Father, hopefully in a short period he would want to return home because he would miss the non-choatic environment filled with true love.
Also, my only other advice to her would be to never let him see you sweat. Even with regards to the child issue, just try to act non chalant about it, like if the kid wants to go live with you–whatever. (even though you really don’t feel that way) If he knows you cringe every time he picks the kids up and spend all your time worrying about whether he will get the kids, he is gonna play that one for all it’s worth. Don’t react to his insults and criticisms and threats. Don’t let him know what you really want because he will zero in on that to make sure you don’t get it. Just concentrate on building really good relationship with your children.
I agree with Jen about the “never let him see you sweat” concept and acting like it’s fine with you if your son goes to live with him…actually, the son might get a chance to see what a CREEP his father REALLY is by living with him.
On the papers, I agree with Donna. Use the papers for leverage but whatever you trade them for, make it something you can get IMMEDIATELY because he will not honor anything in the future, even if it is in writing.
I understand the woman’s frustration with the situation. Her need to be vindicated and/or to at least hurt him back in some way….but I think she needs to use the papers to her advantage at least. If she gives in and gives them to him for “nothing” in return, she is not going to “buy” any “good will” from him anyway, so she might as well get something out of it.
Poster said: “He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?”
On holding the papers as leverage for something she wants, well, I think it depends on what it is she wants. And Donna didn’t tell us that. If it is something he can readily hand over and that he is not likely to fight big time over, then yeah, I would withhold them for an even exchange. But otherwise, I would still hand them right over and just forget it so I wouldn’t have to interact and fight with him. As a general rule, I just hold the opinon that fighting with a true sociopath is a waste of time and you are asking for it because they are gonna give it to you in some fashion that you absolutely do not want and usually when you least expect it.
“He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool.”
It depends on whether you’re legally entitled to what you’re bargaining for, and whether he’s legally entitled to the documents you’re holding.
If he’s legally entitled to the documents; get certified true copies and send them by registered mail. You need to hand ’em over, and be able to prove you’ve handed them over.
If you’re legally entitled to what you want, be very public and open about your request. If he has no clear entitlement to the documents, use them for a bargaining chip, but be public and open about this “deal”.
You need to need to be legally correct, you need to be firm, and you need to be boring.
I have a friend who deals regularly with her Ex S over child custody issues. She repeats everything of importance over and over again in a library paste dull tone of voice until her message registers with the S. This helps him understand that the issue isn’t going to go away. Further, by using the minimum number of words and a monotonous tone of voice, she helps him understand that she means exactly what she says, and he cannot weasel his way out of their legal agreements.
To this end, keep all his silly emails. Don’t respond to them. Forward any threatening emails to local law enforcement. Fulfill all your legal obligations promptly, through third parties to the greatest extent possible.
Do not worry about currying favor with an S. It’s not possible. They only “Like” those they “respect”, and they only respect those they fear. Sucking up to an S is a waste of time. Knowing what they are and how they think is key to your eventual success. Don’t be fooled. His cronies are his cronies ’cause he’s using them, or he needs their favor, or some combination of the two. The only way to settle the S down is to become a force to be reckoned with, or dull enough for him to forget about.
PS: A word about threatening emails.
One ex S I know of regularly threatens to become disabled so that he can stop paying child support and/or collect worker’s compensation. He made one of these statements in an email, and his ex wife forwarded the email to his employer. She’s started keeping recordings of his phone messages and playing them to key audiences. It’s been an eye opener for many people.
A record doesn’t have to be “admissable in a court of law” in order for it to open the minds of various people the S has bamboozled.
” Fulfill all your legal obligations promptly, through third parties to the greatest extent possible.” -Elizabeth Conley.
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I’m with Elizabeth. And boring is good.
Got a phone call from the ex-tox this morning. Problems with my daughter at her house (chaos central). Complaints about spending for my daughter’s clothes, cost of tennis uniform. Oh, and she’s busy….can I take the daughter tonight til 8 or 9?….the ex-tox has something to do (not my scheduled late night).
I’m getting better at it. She has been the one, for three years, who has not followed the court order, agreed settlement, parenting time schedule, and legal requirements. When I demanded she do so…I was “controlling” her like when we were married for nearly 25 years (my take on that is a little different). I was boring.
1. OK…I’ll take my daughter. Always do, whenever I can.
2. Ignore the “money” complaints. I pay the agreed support, on time, every time, every week. I have spent thousands extra on clothes for my daughter, laptop computer, iPod, cellular phone, etc. I even sent the ex-tox extra money for school registrations, book rental, athletic uniforms, medical expenses for my daughter, ad nauseum. I’m done. She has a boyfriend, still married to another woman, living in her house. My “late night” with my daughter is their “date night”, and they can’t make it home at the legally agreed time in the decree for me to return my daughter.
3. I respond with no emotion, and ignore anything not directly related to my daughter. I have no control over what happens “there”.
4. My daughter is 13. She can be manipulating, too. I’m teaching her the meaning of the word “NO”. She doesn’t like it much, but she still knows I love her.
5. I learn something new every day…and draw new boundaries.
6. “She repeats everything of importance over and over again”-Elizabeth Conley. LOL…I said “OK…I’ll take her” at least six times in a ten minute conversation. Pretty much ignored the rest.
I’m getting better at it. TOWANDO!
“My ex got the loan in the divorce.”
Andrea, speaking as a lawyer, unless the creditors gave you a formal release from this loan, it doesn’t matter what your divorce settlement says. If your ex defaults on this loan or files for bankruptcy, my concern is that the creditors will come to YOU for repayment.
If you provide your ex with copies of the loan documents, and I cannot think of what you are gaining by withholding them indefinitely, I would have EVERY SINGLE PAGE NOTARIZED AS A TRUE AND CORRECT COPY. You do not want to give your ex the change to substitute his own efforts at “creative writing”. I know of what I speak, since a conman brother tried this stunt on me. Then sent the document out certified mail, signature return receipt requested.
Before you do anything, you need to review this with your attorneys. If you are still on the loan, you should consider approaching the lenders with your attorney to see about getting released from the obligation.
Bottom line? I’m all for leverage when dealing with these creatures, but you’ve got to CYA financially in this case.
Elizabeth Conley:
“Do not worry about currying favor with an S. It’s not possible. They only “Like” those they “respect”, and they only respect those they fear.
After I had driven off the S, I told him it was time to start repaying the money I loaned him. He responded with a nasty letter which sunk to new, insulting depths, even for him.
My reponse? I sent him a short, strictly business,”library paste” letter with copies of the forms I filed against him with the IRS. I had realized that I had to instill so much fear in him that he wouldn’t screw with me again. A riend of mine said “I wouldn’t be surprised if he comes around again, because in his perverse logic he now respects you for what you did.”
Personally, I don’t want him anywhere near me. However, handling him the way I did was highly satisfying.
Dear Matt,
Thanks for giving her the legal advice. I didn’t think of the possibility she would own the debt if he defaulted.
I’ve got a question for you:
How can I prove I’ve sent something to someone? Even If I send something Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested, that doesn’t prove that the certified mail envelope contained what I claim it did, does it? Someone suggested I put the Certified Mail Tracking Number in the heading of each page of the letter, and get certified true copies. Still, I don’t see how that proves that I sent what I claim to have sent.
There’s got to be a way, because I’m not the only one who needs to hold someone else accountable. Can you help me with this one?
Please!
Elizabeth
Elizabeth:
Under the Federal Rules of Evidence, the certificate of mailing is legal proof. I agree with you that putting the tracking number on the headers doesn’t prove you mailed the document. Here are two thoughts on how to prove the recipient got the document.
First, is electronic backup. I often, just to make certain that the recipient got something send the first mailing out certified, then send an executed pdf copy of the document via email with it set up so the minute the recipient opens the email, I am notified that he has done so. Now you have both the receipt for the snail mail and and the electronic confirm and the email with the attachment. IF you think the recipient is going to pull the “attachment didn’t open” song and dance, bcc the email to somebody else.
Second, have a witness to what went in the mail up to the mailing. Then have them execute a certificate, with a copy of the document attached, saying something to the effect that they witnessed you put the document in the envelope, that the attached document is a true and correct copy of what you put in the envelope, and that they witnessed you place the true and correct copy in an envelope and present it for mailing to a representative of the US Post Office.