Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Dear Witsend,
Your post made me cry- my heart goes out to you both. Here’s a link: it’s a book online for teens grieving loss via suicide. Maybe your son may someday realize that he is not alone, and that he can’t hold in the anger forever. Maybe part of it is that deep inside, he doesn’t want to show his human feelings, because the sense of fragility with all that has happened is just too much. At least by your putting your heart out there by his side, he will somehow start to release some of the pain.
Take care. Will send more links as I find.
Diana
oriablue.com
http://books.google.com/books?id=5fPYBpBbiMUC&pg=PA156&dq=teen+survivors+%2B+parents+suicide&ei=IBbxSY3PNoOIzQTwzqjeCw#PPP1,M1
Dear Witsend,
I definitely agree that you NEED some support in real life, not just here. Therapy for YOU might also be in order.
I definitely undeerstand your frustration that NOTHING YOU DO seems to work, and the thing is “you can lead a horse to water….but you can’t make him drink.” Your son is still a “child” but he can and WILL make his own decisions about how to run his life and if he is DETERMINED you cannot force him to do anything. I have been there with my own P-son.
Whether your son is a P or is depressed or whatever his problems is or are, ultimately HE MUST DECIDE WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT. YOU must decide how YOU can proceed, but the success or failure of what you do is UP TO HIM AND HIM ALONE. This, for me is the biggest frustration, is that here is a child we can see is harming themselves and nothing we do influences them for better or worse, it seems. We WANT to control them, to help and protect them because we love them. But OUR REALITY is NOT their reality. We see from an adult standpoint but they do not, are NOT capable of seeing what they are doing to themselves (for, again, “whatever reason”)
I also suggest that you do NOT beat yourself up over “not being there” when your husband killed himself. Any trauma caused to your son by your husband’s suicide was HIS doing, not yours. I realize that suicide has a profound effect on all people left behind. Any death of a parent has a profound effect on anyone….of any age…but to young children, who are actually too young to realize what “death” actually is, it can be even more profound.
Don’t “blame” yourself or think that if you had done something differently it might not have had such a effect on your son. Your husband obviously had some mental illness or disorder of some kind or he would not have killed himself, so there is also a possibility your son also has an inherited depression or other mental illness as well. Again, not your fault or responsibility.
I have finally come to the realization that there was NOTHING I COULD HAVE DONE differently to have effected a change in my P-son’s behavior, and I know other parents whose children “self destructed” with drugs or booze, etc. who also could have done nothing to have prevented it…..((((hugs))))) you have done the best tht you can with what you have to deal with. I am not telling you to “give up” hope entirely, but just not to expect that you can absolutely save your son if you find just THE RIGHT thing….there may not be a right thing. He is the pilot of this ship, his ship, and only he will determine the port. That’s a hard thing to accept, or at least it was for me….but I have finally realized the reality of it. My prayers for your son and you and for your peace. (((hugs))))
Hello, hello, hello…..
I am esctatic!!!!!!!! Deposition day went perfect!!!!! My attorney was the bomb and planted him 10 feet under, as he dug his own hole. I just sat there at the conference table and decided not to take my eyes off of him, he was so uncomfortable, it gave me pleasure. He wouldn’t look at me AT ALL during questioning….couldn’t….he never could look me in the eyes and lie. At times I leaned forward with my elbows on the table, fingers and hands entwined resting under my chin. At times I sat back legs crossed, head cocked to the side and twirling a pen for distraction. He always hated that! He was so obnoxious, my attorney said she had never taken a depo with a person like him. She was well aware of the behaviors prior…..but was shocked at how cocky and stupid he was. The things he said. She asked him if he was currently under the influence of drugs or alchohol….he said no, but after this we could go out and party. It got better from there. 2 hours of bliss for me to watch him wiggle. At times I envisioned the salt shaker over the snails head and the foam started immediately.
He lied through the whole depo…..just as expected. My recon and notes and detailed 14 pages of MY questions were perfect. He backed himself into a hole each time. Freaked him out. His attorney kicked him a few times. Both attorneys tried at various times to calm him down. I sat there and said NOTHING for 2 hours. He kept referring the questions to me, ‘SHE KNOWS’, ask her. That was just how we operated in our marriage…questions got hard and I always bailed him out to avoid escalation from him. It felt so good to be conscience of my own silence, knowing how it made him wiggle and not caring. He looked at me as his ‘angel’ and I kept silent like the devil. At one point he rapidly pushed his chair back abruptly and ran out the room saying he had to go ‘potty’…..I knew what that meant….the irritable bowel kicked in and he ran.
He has claimed he can’t work and hasn’t for 1 1/2 years…but travels extensively. I had documentation of a girl he worked with doing work for her, manual labor stuff…..he admitted to working with her….when pushed directly for how payment was made, check, cash, barter, trade etc… he said no…sexual favors! My attorney sure nailed him for that. you mean to say you have not worked for xx and your obligations are not met with your wife and kids and you have the opportunity to get paid and you take sexual favors and then claim to have supported your family? His attorney had to have been mortified. I am sure he had no idea what to do with him but get him out of there…..
The only way the day could have been more perfect was if I could have been a fly on the car window with him and his attorney after the depo. I can’t imagine what his attorney had to say to him after witnessing what he had agreed to represent.
It felt good to have this opportunity for me. Freeing. I felt in control. I am doing right….it’s a long road, but I’m on it and I controlled the GPS system!
ErinBrockovich….enjoyed the deposition victory story…fly in the window? No, you ARE the windshield. He WAS the bug. I hope you enjoy continuing victories. Stay safe and well.
Matt….
I have done a google search for PWP in my area. Haven’t been able to find anything close by where I live by that method. Will look further into it.
aroundthe bend..
Thanks again for your story. I will read it many times over I am sure. I get something “new” from it when I read again.
Ox Drover…
I believe I am still struggling with the whole “acceptance” part of this.
ErinBrokovich:
Isn’t it a wonderful feeling when you are not only in control, and not only no longer bailing them out, but can now watch them hang themselves and enjoy it?
Matt said
“Isn’t it a wonderful feeling when you are not only in control, and not only no longer bailing them out, but can now watch them hang themselves and enjoy it?”
AMAZING FEELING TO BE IN CONTROL OF MY OWN LIFE AGAIN. HEALTHY CONTROL OF MYSELF…
NO LONGER FEELING THE NEED TO BAIL THEM OUT, OR FEELING that THAT IS THE ANSWER…THE ANSWER WAS TO BAIL MYSELF OUT OF A TOXIC DYSFUNCTIONAL SITUATION…LIFE IS SO MUCH LIGHTER…SOMEONE ELSE IS CARRYING THE BURDEN AND WEIGHT OF HIM. HOPE THAT PERSON FIGURES IT OUT SOONER THAN LATER!!
ErinBrock
I am so so so happy for you – I hope I get a day similar to that when i am in court or similar with me ‘ex’ Sociopath!!!
Kudos to you!!!
Sorry I have not been able to read all of the responses to this thread, as I would have liked.
In response to the article, I don’t think anything works when dealing with a sociopath except to extract them from your life as much as is possible. I’m very sure that no amount of money or material possessions is worth keeping them in our lives. I am grateful I am not in a position where I have to leverage for the custody of children. This must be gutwrenching.
Since I have read the last few posts, I wanted to respond to witsend. There are many forms of therapy and hypnosis that could work for a trauma such as what your son went through. However, in order to allow the therapy to work, the patient first needs to develop trust. Trust is needed in order to bond with another person. It is possible that your son is terrified to trust anyone because of his early loss, and that is the cause of his anti-social behaviors. I wish I had an answer for how to help someone to trust. My entire battle with life involves letting myself trust. After growing up with neglect, physical abuse, covert sexual abuse, humiliation, and abandonment, I often wonder if I will ever make the leap to completely trust another human being. I will continue to keep you and your son in my thoughts as you make your way on this difficult journey and pray for a breakthrough for both of you.
Curious about what everyone thinks.
In between contact and NC every last time gets easier to not give a crap if they come or go. Pointing out all their BS everytime we let them back in. Seems like helping them and ourselves to ween out of it? To soft an approach?