Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Thank you, Jim in Indiana USA.
Co-parenting with this person is impossible. He can be four hours late picking up my daughter for visitation, but if I’m running 10 minutes late it’s WWIII. A few weeks ago, my daughter had to be in catechism until 6pm and I had advised him of this. So he intentionally showed up to get her at 5:30 and when we weren’t home, he filed a police report and then didn’t come back to get her at 6. My daughter said to me, “I guess my dad didn’t really want to see me that bad.” What do I say to that? I never make excuses for him. I just tell her I don’t know why, I’m sorry for her disappointment, that it’s not right to do something like that, and she has to decide for herself. But now I hear her starting to criticize her father and it’s hard not to tell her she’s right. I have done it a couple of times without realizing that I’m actually causing her more pain. At the same time, it’s hard not to validate what she’s saying, because she’s right! I have so many horror stories that I don’t even know where to start. I just feel really helpless. He has all of his family and a new victim (I mean wife) supporting him and his outrageous behavior. He can tell them whatever story he wants to make his behavior seem reasonable. He’s a master at this game. I’m living in a foreign country as a single mom with just a few friends and I feel like I have nowhere to turn. I thought my seven years with him was pure hell…but now I’m watching him put my daughter through it…
sgbrown…I understand. I try to follow the scedule for parenting time she agreed to and ordered by the judge…and it is pretty specific. She refuses to comply and it’s always “about her”. Let’s see…last week…not my night..ex calls…”has to pick up something” could I keep my daughter til 8-9 pm? OK…I get time with my daughter. (Turns out she and her married-to-someone-else boyfriend had to pick up a new-to-him motorcycle in another state he bought on E-bay).
Daughter told me “the deal”, ex-tox didn’t. I’m supposed to return my daughter after “my weekend” at 6 pm Sunday….my x-tox calls the daughter’s cell phone (which I provide and pay for)at 5:30pm to tell her she won’t be home at 6 pm…
“have your Dad bring you at 6:30 pm or bring your key if you have it”.
My daughter and her friends make fun of her mother in my presence…I try to stick to “No Comment”…but I slip up occasionally.
As Matt (attorney) here suggested, I could go back to court, with an overwhelming amount of documentation, to make her “toe the line”…but they are incurable, you know….
So, I make my choices…the net result is I get a lot more time with my daughter.
The rewards will come later.
That’s just my decisions and my way of dealing with it…yours may be a more severe case (his police report) that may require different action on your part.
I wish you the best. At least at this site you’ll experience understanding from others that “get” what it is you’re dealing with.
And I say “sorry” to my daughter a lot, followed by, “but I can’t do anything about what goes on at your Moms,,,,”
SGBrown: WELCOME, in one way or another we are all sailing the same ship. Read, educate and raise your own awareness….it’s not you…your NOT crazy! Develope your support group and lean on them as much as YOU need.
I remember wrestling with the same issues. I got off easy, it was our therapist that brought it up to the kids as matter of factly. My older ones were subjected to behaviors and witnessed wierd things on their own. They, actually were the ones who encouraged me to get out. It sure helped when he took them to a drug house and told them “if you ever tell your mother, it will be the end of our family”. It took several months and it came out.
I am not sure how old your daughter is, but I believe it will come naturally to her, as it did you. I think as a parent we want to protect our kids from the hurt…..but we can’t. Her dad is who he is, and you can’t change that. PERIOD! You will watch her pain and offer her your unconditional love. It’s good you don’t make excuses for him…..I did for years and my kids already knew the truth and it just undermined my authority. I tried to cover for him on the parental front, not knowing just what he was doing…..but the kids knew all along. My oldest tells me weekly….Mom, you sure had your blinders on. Imagine me parenting him, telling him ‘Your father and I”…..would never hurt you, love you to pieces, will always be here for you, want the best for you….whatever I said I always represented it as a co-parent. Eldest says he just laughed at me, because he knew I was blind to it all.
I would suggest when she is let down by her father….just listen and validate her feelings, they are real as painful as they are to you too……..and give her a hug and let her know just how much you love her. You don’t have to say much.
Do not take the responsibility for caretaking his parenting. It’s crazymaking and you will never fullfill your goals……he would never allow that.
I sure wouldn’t tell him anything….it’s his daughter…if he’s concerned about something he can get the job done….he can attend conferences, Dr’s apts etc….give him only what he asks for, but sure don’t go out of your way. Act willing and gracious……but give what YOU want.
Its about YOU….not him.
It does feel impossible, but try to make all arrangements work for YOU (and daughter). Expect him to be late and plan on it.
Document everything and keep it. My attorney calls me the ‘sapling’ because I have so much paperwork. I am not doing a ‘green’ divorce! 🙂 Sorry.
You don’t have to feel helpless….stay here, read up…..you will soon realize your not alone with this man.
You can only control yourself, so set your own pace, keep your strength and keep showing your daughter good character and love.
We are here!
Dear Sgbrown, Welcome.
So sorry to hear all of you dealing with children involved:Jim, Erin,Freeenuf, sorry if I left some out. You are the only real parent your children have and are doing a beautiful and courageous job. I too, raised my son under extremely same circumstances. He is now 20,and I know I did the best I could in loving and raising him with the knowlege and resources (though very little of both) at the time.
No one had to tell him how messed up his dad is, he sadly figured it out. Now, he basically has faced the reality of his dad. I tell him, your dad loved you as MUCH as his capacity to love is-his dad I;m not sure is a S, but life long drug abuser. I’ve told him a drug addict LOVES only the drug- that is his family, his God, and his life.
All I could do was as Jim said be there to listen, validate, and love him , One loving parent who cares is a blessing and an anchor to the child.
SG- My last marriage was to a N/S who had children with a his xwife.I wholeheartedly agree with not telling them anything. Regarding school issues my x N/P used what his childrens mother told him and managed to schmooze the teachers, principals, etc.
He convinced them all that he was the “good ” parent, his x could not be trusted in her evaluation of the children, and she was crazy as he told school officials about her multiple rehabs for drug/alcohol addictions-FAILING to mention he too, had been in rehab AND had A POLICE RECORD, and was far worse than the mother who was raising the children after his Hitler style tyranny and abuse.
Never give a S a rock to throw at you. I’m sorry that you are feeling so alone. Come here anytime, we are all behind you. Pray that God sends you uplifting people to be in your life. Know that we are all with you in spirit.
Thanks everyone. It helps to know I’m not alone. I’ve felt that way for a long time…until I started reading about NPD and finally figured out what was wrong with him. Now it all makes sense. I’ll write more tomorrow.
Well today was the long awaited appointment with the psyciatrist. As usual I am left with more questions than answers. Although he did answer some of the questions I had about the courts and what purpose they would “serve” (OR NOT) with my son. And he did show genuine concern rather than the arrogant additude I usually get from my sons counscelor.
BUT BOTTOM line is he really can’t do much, until things get worse.
He advised signing papers with the “system” to the effect that my son is incourageable. I think I spelled it wrong & even pronounced it wrong but I am to drained to look it up.
He said there are several ways that it can go and he isn’t sure of the entire process. Some kids (if they broke the law) are taken from the home and others are allowed to live within the home. NONE of this addresses the depression, more the behaviour & his lack of good decision making.
Depending on severity of problems. Once again we are back to the law breaking, running away etc. My sons (lack of) “paper trail” is NOT what the courts are looking for. If they see past arrest the courts respond to that.
He said at this point although he is concerned with the family history of his fathers suicide/depression…..and sees the depression, mood swings in my son, the courts would most likely NOT court order him into an inpatient treatment center at THIS TIME.
Even his concern as a doctor is NOT ENOUGH for “cause” to court order.
He said MEDICAIDE has had so many funding cuts that the criteria for the courts to follow is not what it used to be. He doesn’t like it but it is what it is. Right now, even while under his care, a full evaluation will only be ordered (and COVERED) if hospitalized.
So lets summarize: WITH MEDICAIDE
In order to get more “paperwork” and documentation in his “file” for the courts, I need to get him hospitalized, for full bloodwork, urine, and thyroid work to be done and documented. And any further Psych. tests.
BUT essentually I can’t get him hospitalized (by the courts) WITHOUT the paperwork.
He hasn’t hurt anybody yet and he hasn’t slit his wrist so although I brought him in for a suicide intervention, several weeks ago it is documented as “mothers concern” rather than rushed to the hospital bleeding to death….
So really what comes first? The cart or the horse?….In this case seems like the cart?
He also suggested that I could call 911 at any time if I feel the need to get the police involved. If the police see fit they will take him to the ER. He could be admitted (or not). Depending on what they attest the situation to be.
If admitted he would have further test done. And after 48-72 hours they would likely call for me to pick him up. I COULD REFUSE to pick him up stating that I didn’t agree that he was ready to come “home” and then THEY could transport him to the state mental institution. If I don’t take him and they don’t want him, they WILL find a psych ward to put him but it WOULDN’T be my choice. Such as a state institution rather than a childrens facility. If THE HOSPITAL WANTS HIM OUT they will send him to first available bed rather than where I would like him to go.
So basically if my son beats me up or pushes/slaps me around I can call the police and they will take him.
Or if he is in a rage and throwing stuff around the house. They will take him.
If he tries to hurts someone at school they will take him.
If he hurts himself they will take him.
If he has a history of arrest, drugs, or the like they would take him.
What a plan. Unfortunately I find fault with all of it.
The doctor said to file the papers about his being incourageable to BEGIN the paper trail within the system. And to possibly get some “outside” help with this. He wasn’t sure of the outcome of filing & what “help” I might actually recieve but said it is a begining. I can do that.
But the depression is still unaddressed.
I know I am not thinking properly right now….I am really upset because I feel alot of pressure. I am anxious and I am angry. NOT at him (my son) but at the SYSTEM.
When I picked my son up from school today, I asked him how his day was and his irritability level was so high he about blew up over a simple question. So we rode in SILENCE. When I tried waking him for school this morning it took over a half hour and he was so irritable he about blew up at me this morning as well.
All I have to do is “talk” (rather than leave him ALONE as he prefers) to my son and sooner or later I feel,…. he will be abusive. (I saw this as very likely right before he was put on meds ) If I turn it UP a NOTCH and actually CONFRONT him about something or ground him at this point in time, for his grades, I could probably get a rage out of him.
Is this what needs to happen? Do I need a black eye?
A lot of good legal advice here, agree with most of what Elizabeth and Matt said, but I have another concern for Andrea.
If you are in a community property state, the debt can be left with you. All you can get from him legally would be indemnification (he pays you back) if he BK’s. The problem is the creditor is not a party to any agreement between you two.
More important is what does he need the documents for? Please think about your own exposure on these documents, civil and even criminal. You do not want to become a co-conspirator if he’s up to some scam that they involve. If you do not know the answer to that, ask your divorce attorney. If there is a crime afoot involving these documents, you have every right and maybe even a duty to avert that by hanging onto them or even turning them over to the proper authority. Your lawyer should know who that is or at the very least a copy to the local PO or Sheriff will show that you “withdrew” from any conspiracy.
If you are absolutely sure that they could not be misused, then you should consider your ownership interest (like Eliz and Matt said) in them before you use them as leverage. If you have no lawful ownership of them, and just got them by accident, and have no reason to suspect they could be used illegally, then you may have no choice but to give them to him.
If you can use them as leverage, perhaps you could give them to your attorney and let her/him negotiate with the S’s attorney and spare yourself the drama. It will deprive him the “fun” of seeing you sweat, you keep NC, and maybe get an agreement that custody will be left as is for a number of years.
Must disagree, though, on the Federal Rules of Evidence. All the certified mail receipt proves is that something was mailed, what was in it will still depend on your testimony. Still a good idea, but unless it comes back as undeliverable you cannot prove what was in the envelope with the green slip.
Sorry if I’m a little paranoid, but my S, and I’m sure others’ tried to drag us into something illegal. Sometimes one action can “further” a conspiracy and then you have to defeat the implication by the prosecutor that you knew about it because you were his wife. Spousal privilege (his statements to you while married) holds up even after the divorce and there is an exception for co-conspirators. But I’m not sure you can assert that if your position is that you are not a co-conspirator.
It’s really tricky and would be best averted by knowing for sure what he wants to do with the documents.
I dont know id this is normal or not..so please help..as today I am feeling so tired and not as strong as I have been….I have remained in no contact and I have no desire to contact but i have such a deep desire to KNOW SOMETHING….I want to know he is hurting that he is miserable that he is sick…hungry..homeless..anything..that would give me happiness to no end…I am a good decent loving woman and I feel he has ripped my heart and spit it out and I just dont want to think he is having one day of happiness…I feel I need some stregnth today and I cant find it inside today..please help!!!
Endthepain –
I understand. My S’s other and I held each other up through the whole break up, we both dumped him, but that’s cooled. Maybe they are even back together though her last call was how in love with her new man she is. If so, I’m happy for her and hope we do stay friends but there was no reason to talk 3 times a day forever.
She was telling me what he was doing, where he was, so at least I knew. No I don’t, and maybe that’s what hurts. Your post made me see that. And my friends were telling me it was not good hearing about him.
Unfortunately, though, ETP, he’s not likely to be doing the grieving that you are. I read through your posts to get your story and it’s a lot like mine, stopped blaming the other woman.
Even if they are apart, he’s just mad that he lost, and may have moved on to his next sucker. He is not miserable, but he’ll never experience the joy of true love either. They are just like robots without feelings of much except anger and glee at their own power.
He’ll never really be happy. There will be moments of excitement and “victory”, but he’ll never enjoy a quiet evening eating a home cooked gourmet meal by the fire watching the sunset with someone he loves.
I know that’s not much, but it’s the best I can do for either of us.
Dear Witsend,
CATCH 22! Oh, my dear I am so sorry! What a crock of crap! Ask social services if there is something in your state called a “FINS petition.” It is a “families in need of services” petition through dept. of human services, in which you are NOT GETTING the services you need, and a judge gets to hear your plea for services. Sounds like your Psych MD would back you up. That might help you get the services you need. (((hugs)))))