Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Dear Witsend,
Wheres theres a will theres a way! And you have the will…just have to find the way!!!!
I totally agree with you about the medical vs. mental treatments accessabilities!!! Its a shame…its so messed up.
I really think you should try to get in to see the new medicaid doctor.. under the guise of a much needed “physical” perhaps that you feel you have to rule out the obvious…mono, limes, thyroid ( syptoms of severe exhaustion lack of energy and mood swings …etc…and expressing your biggest concern and maternal instinct are leading you to believe its depression that is worsening with each passing day…
As far as the effects if any, that generally happens when going cold turkey after being on the meds for prolonged period of times, you mention a short while… a week, or a month? wohld most likely not shock his brain.
If he actually noticed a “Bit” of relief perhaps he will be more agreeable with a new Doctor on board…or maybe it was you that experienced the much needed “relief” of seeing your son a bit more comfortable in his own skin… Not sure, but if he actually felt some relief…that could be used to his/your advantage.
Although you clearly state he will not take med.
You will get past this… look at all of these challenging days youve had and how youve gotten through and past them all! Lastly, when my teenage daughter and I have had really difficult times connecting, Ive written her a few letters…from my heart…not so much as a parent…but as a person who has no idea how to be the best mom I can be and that I respect and appreciate her as an individual and I dont always get things right, or know how to handle mother/child situations…I express how much I care and love her and am always here for her (although she is very much to herself) I still do it in writing because I believe she really wants/or needs it. I dont “cave in ” or “give in” but I offer compromises as a means to meet in the middle. Sometimes the letters have been put back on my bed (when she is really angry or disagrees) sometimes she WRITES ME BACK (when she wants to get her point across or state her side…and once we have met in the hallway and just kind of smiled as if to say “we are ok, for now:)”
IF she was experiencing the same level of depression I might be inclined to think writing to her (something meaningful or heartful or options to get us thru this difficult time) would fall on deaf ears or cause greater resentment…but as I sit hear now I think I would do it for both her and myself.
I am just troubleshooting with you, as I feel your deep concerns and frustrations and agree with so much you have shared about your journey in getting support for your son. You are doing a great job, i know you feel “beat down” but you are doing everything in your power to help him.
You will get through this. He will get through this. You know what to do and you are continuing to seek support and advice to do whatever it takes.
Take care of yourself too. Its alot for you…but you both will get through this!!!
Wit’send,
Your point of view is very practical. I don’t think you’re over-reacting at all. I think you’re spot on. Keep up the good fight here.
Did you say you work from home? If your son isn’t productive in school, you might consider pulling him out. I don’t know if this is a good idea or not. Maybe you need the respite school provides.
Sometimes I think our kids need to know that we’re crazy.
Crazy with love for them, willing to do anything. Willing to do things most people consider impossible. Willing to do the wildly improbable, just in the hope that they might experience a moment’s joy.
For some reason I am thinking of my favorite musical, Fiddler on the Roof. I’m recalling the words of Yente the Matchmaker. “…I promise you’ll be happy, and even if you’re not – there’s more to life than that! Don’t ask me what…”
There’s more to life than happiness, but not as much as we tend to think. Sometimes depressed people desperately need to feel a moment’s joy, then stretch it into a minute. In baby steps they crawl toward the light, learning to be happy for longer and longer stretches at a time.
Depression is a merciless opponent. It takes a lot to break free.
You know maybe today is just one of those days. Well for one thing today followed yesterday and yesterday was a BAD day. And yesterday put me in a bad place. I am going to try and regroup for tomorrow. I’m throwing myself a little “pity” party today and hopefully tomorrow will be better.
Spent a few hours on the phone this morning and this afternoon and now waiting to actually talk to a “live” person instead of a machine. I talked to 2 live people today. One was a large treatment facility that is in another state but well known. But I quickly realized that this was a dead end.
Another was a positive conversation! This lady had a “crisis” center for runnaways and although that has nothing to do with my son she has had a little bit of experience with the courts and incorrigible teens. She told me that the person who is in charge of the classes (I guess they are for parents & for the kids) is really a great guy and actually comes to your house.
THIS in itself will do nothing for the immediate problem (the depression). But if my son is deemed incorrigible by the courts it is then “court ordered” for him to attend these classes.
And it will be a begining for him to see that he is not making decisions in his best interest. If he breaks the court order, it will be handled in a different way then it has been by the school, the facility he goes to for counsceling, and myself. Truthfully I don’t know how it will be handled but it will be in the courts hands then.
Personally I don’t see how a depressed kid can get anything out of THIS program, (anymore than any other) until the depressed “fog” in his brain is addressed. HOWEVER maybe if this “director” is such a great guy he will give us an avenue to get the depression addressed in a way that I have so far been unable to do.
Dear Witsend,
People who have had a CLOSE RELATIVE commit suicide have a MUCH GREATER RISK STATISTICALLY of doing the same thing. You might bring this up to the counselor, because if he ignores YOU and your son DOES commit suicide, you are in a position to sue him (you might point that out)…I actually dont’ think your son is (even with his depression) all that likely to try suicide, but, the stats are WITH your argument so that might lend some validity to your argument that your son needs INPATIENT treatment for his depression.
I hear your frustration and fatigue, and I do keep you in my prayers for your success with your son! ((((hugs)))) and God bless.
Oxy
Interestingly enough I HONESTLY believe that being the suicide survivor has HINDERED my position with this counscelor.
Think about it…This guy is a social worker not a psyciatrist. I thought that doctors take an oath….First do no harm. Or something along those lines.
The social worker is working in a profession much like a doctor. 6 moths ago the “mother” (me) brings him in for counsceling. At that time I didn’t see depression signs in my son yet.
I saw major troubling personality traits presenting themselves in puberty. (since 15) And some troubling behaviours. Grandious thinking, Passing Blame, (no accountability at all) Major manipulation, No sense of reality, Consistant lying, Anger/Irritability, Failing in School. This was the “majors on the agenda” 6 months ago.
One of the biggies I voiced was the CONSTANT lying. And yet this guy has fallen for my sons lies…hook line and sinker…since then.
Then a few months later the depression signs were very noticeable. Fatique 24/7, lack of interest, lack of appetite, isolation, lack of personal hygiene, MENTAL fog……
I mean the kid has gone DOWNHILL in the 6 months that he has been going there.
Finally after much pressure on my part came the partial eval. Counscelor wasn’t even willing to do that until I wouldn’t let up. I was told that I had every right for an evaluation by a doctor.
And when I did fear that he was suicidal I swear Oxy the fact that I was a suicide survivor was against me.
I feel that I have a strength were this is concerned. I know the statistics and I know the real LIFE issues that people have delt with. I met many families where 2 or 3 MEMBERS of the SAME family suicided. Or had homicide/suicide and lost 2 members that way.
That information doesn’t make me paranoid “freak show”. In 12 years since my husband suicided, I never thought any other member of my family or anyone else that I knew to be suicidal?
BUT I am finding that most ALL of the people that I have contacted in the system, these past few weeks, all of them over the phone, ASK me if my son is suicidal, BUT they want to know if he has SAID OUTLOUD that he wants to hurt himself. If he is not saying it outloud it seems it has no validity.
I don’t even percieve my son right now to be having suicidal thoughts. I just DON’T know if he is. All I do KNOW is the depression is obvious, and signs are there.
If I can’t even get him help for what I DO know.
Yeah…..I UNDERSTAND he has refused treatment. BUT he is 16 years old and making a decision that is NOT in his best interest. What about that? He is in a mental fog for Gods sake.
Dear Witsend,
I definitely know why you chose your screen name! I swear I am pretty frustrated myself with the things YOU are having to deal with….they remind me of what I DEALT WITH! Sheesh!
The only difference is my P-son was NOT depressed, just definant. But none-the-less, I could not get any help, empathy or compassion from anyone! Professonal or otherwise .
I am flat out of suggestions, maybe Liane Leedom can give you some, or Matt. It seems to me that you have tried darned near everything. I had a foster child who committed suicide, and as far as I know, he TOLD NO ONE (he was no longer in my home) His suicide was a total shock to everyone. He did call all his friends and family though before he died, and I think was “saying goodbye” to all of them.
I wish I had an idea, but I am flat out of ideas….all I can do is to PRAY for you and your son. ((((hugs))))))
Oxy,
Liane has been helpful to me even before I came to this sight. Bless her. She gave me another one just today. To see of I might be able to get a court order to get him to take the meds?
You know I was never a big advocate of kids taking some of these drugs Rx but when I was at my “witsend” with my son and things spiraled out of control so quickly I was willing to try just about anything. Once again I learned to not be so judgemental until you walk in the same shoes….
Matt
How possible is it to get a court order for medication? Would this be a pssibility for me? Is it something I could do or something the Doctor would have to do?
Endthepain,
I understand your paranoia and you might be right. Have you filed a Sheriff’s report? Me S#2 stalked for weeks, parked in his motor home just outside the 100 ft limit on the TPO, so I know how you feel.
Maybe you could show a pic of him to the neighbors or did they not even see the prowler?
witsend,
Your story reminds me a lot of what my mom went through with my brother. I don’t understand what good a court order will do for medication. Maybe I don’t understand what it would entail, exactly, but if he doesn’t want to take the meds can you have them forced down his throat?
My brother, who was diagnosed one time as bipolar and then the next as severely depressed, initially took meds but then stopped because they affected his “manhood.” It’s a HUGE ego thing for guys. And then, if you’re talking about a teenager who already knows everything and is displaying signs of NPD…I feel for you. I really do.
In the end my mom sacrificed much of her own sanity for the sake of my brother – just to give him a place to live and hoping he would eventually make something of his life. Her conscience wouldn’t allow her to just put him out. Although he was borderline genius with advanced degrees in chemistry, physics, math, and biology, he couldn’t function in society or find a good job. He mysteriously died in his sleep (the autopsy showed no evidence of suicide or medical problems) in 2007 at the age of 39.
I’ll be following your blog to see how things go. I have many concerns for my daughter, who is now 10. She has genes full of depression on my side, and the whole narcissistic thing on her dad’s side, with a high-conflict situation between me and her father. Needless to say I’m dreading the teenage years and have already been working with child psychologists in the hope that I can head-off some of the problems.
All the best to you.