Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
witsend:
I have never heard of an order compelling someone to take medication. From a practical standpoint, I don’t see how it would be enforceable — as illustrated by those people who are involuntarily committed and are gotten back to sanity by medication, then the minute they are released, they stop the meds and go right back to their craziness. I’ll do a little poking around and see if I come up with something.
lovemygirl,
I don’t know exactly what good a court order to take the meds either can do. Except report to the courts that he won’t take them and the court steps in.
If those meds make a little bit of difference in what he is going through then it is better than where things are now.
Frankly, I myself need to see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I need a ray of hope. Something to recharge me as I am drained.
I realize my son is in trouble. I just keep beating my head up against the same wall.
In my research on trying to find out more about incourrigible teens and filing through the courts, I came upon a blog where there was a parent who couldn’t get help for their teenager. I believe more of a juvinile delinquent situation, not mental health. No details or “story” just about what happened in the end. Parent evidentally put the teenager in a car and drove to another state and left them there.
Now that is a pretty radical decision. And I could NOT even begin to justify what the parent did. It is wrong on so MANY levels one wouldn’t know where to begin.
However there was a time in my life NOT that long ago I wouldn’t be even able to relate to that parent on any level. Any more than I could relate to an ax murderer.
This parent made a terrible decision because they were desperate. I DON’T understand the decision this parent made but I DO understand the desperation.
Good luck with your daughter. The teenage years can be pretty challenging. When my oldest son was a teenager I got through it mostly by knowing “this to shall pass”……Follow your heart and listen to your instincts. It is good that you have a child psychologist involved now.
Dear Wit,
I think that was Oregon who passed a law that you could leave a CHILD at a hospital and not be prosecuted for abandoning that child. It was INTENDED for infants who were unwanted, but people started bringing older kids, and then they changed the law to infants younger than 3 days.
I worked with a nurse a few years ago who had a story similar to yours and she ended up turning the kid over to the state as uncontrollable when he was about 17. She actually became afraid of him. Nothing she did prior had worked.
I too understood her frustration in trying to “save” her son. From personal experience I know that most of the “youth programs” for these kids and even some of the “mental health inpatient programs” are simply “training grounds” for more problems as they are thrown in with other kids as messed up as they are….just like prisoon is not rehabiliatative but is actually a PhD program for criminals.
It is a shame but that is the truth of it….in my opinion at least.
Some of the “boot camp” programs I have heard are successful, and you might even look at that option if your state has one. I am keeping you in my prayers! (((hugs))))
Dear Witsend,
I too am so overwhelmed and frustrated for you just sitting here on the other end imagining being in your shoes.
I just hung up with my pediatrician. She told me pediatricians CAN AND DO prescribe medication for depression. She said most pediatricians aren’t trained to do psychotherapy, but they can prescribe depression medication and monitor patients they’ve referred to others for therapy…
Have you had any luck reaching the new Doctor medicaid has given you. Can you tell your son you are concerned that he may be sick with some of the other illnesses associated with all of his symptoms to AT LEAST GET HIM IN THE DOOR…get the MD to draw the blood…work from there…test results are normal…but you still seem to be so tired, no appetite, not yourself…maybe THAT Doctor can talk to him and encourage him to try something to make him feel more energized and feeling back to himself…
I understand you are on the path of court orders and interventions and getting an inpatient program and I think anything (not out of desperation) but well thought through and investigated is a good course of action. I would be considering all of it.
But at the same time, and in the meantime maybe beneficial to take him to his general practioners office too. The more on board the better. The blood tests can be done there and all your son has to know is that its time for his annual physical. Especially if he hasnt had any blood work thus far?
The visit may or may no prove to be worthwhile. The Doctor may pick up on your sons signs and symptoms and just reach him in a way that he agrees to try a medication to just generally “feel better”. Maybe a new face, a new personality — someone other than Mom, Counselors, Psychiatrists etc…might be helpful…
Oxy,
There was mention of that as well a state that had passed this law. I believe this story happened in Nebraska and as I understood the story (and I could be wrong) the parent just dropped the teen off and drove away. Not like at a hosiptial or church. I might have missed something as I was having a meltdown while I was researching yesterday. And I have “alot” of stuff I am trying to store in my brain right now so I guess I took from the story what I NEEDED to.
I agree about the various programs. There are places that are near my county for “troubled” teens that I have stumbled upon in my many phone calls. But runaways and juvinile delinquency is pretty much their focus. And like you I believe they “feed” off of each other for more information. Seems like that is what being institutionalized is all about.
Although I am considered a “newbie” here I don’t feel new…I have been struggling with this for 2 years. My fear originally was that I was raising a child with a very “dark” side. A very disturbing side. Every anti social personality disorder adult started out as an adolecent . AND I don’t know what their parents “saw” in them while raising them. I came here hoping to get some clarity with that. I had been reading another site for awile before I came here. There was a young man that posted on this site that was diagnosed as a sociopath. He gave me an invaluable “look” into his childhood. This young man was old enough to be diagnosed but still very young.
When I came here I was in desperate need for support. By then my son did show outward signs of depression on top of the disturbing personality traits & behaviours. Now what I felt was an already complicated situation was even more complicated. It was hard to see the forest from the trees before.
I don’t know anymore where one disorder ends and one begins.
In ONE week my son has lost his pay check, lost his cell phone, he lost $30 worth of minutes he bought for the phone (not that he can use them anyways w/o finding the phone), He has several keys for his work and he is only suppose to bring one back and forth. I find them in his pockets every day in dirty laundry.
I bought him a new pair of shoes 2 weeks ago and haven’t seen them for the last week. He never brought them home from school. I am afraid to even ask if these are lost. As if they are he won’t tell me the truth.
The mental “fog” is geting worse…Depression, or the ADHD?
He accused me of taking his paycheck? I found the paycheck, the phone minutes, the keys….Don’t know where the phone or shoes might be.
In THE BIG PICTURE of things, this kind of thing has not a high ranking importance next to the more troubling things going on here with him. But it certainly gives a “clear” explanation of why he can’t focus on schoolwork. He can’t focus on anything.
Even a few months ago that phone was like his “lifeline”. Kids now day don’t CALL each other anymore they text message. All day. He doesn’t even care that the phone is missing. He hasn’t asked to go to the store to buy another (that would have been his way of “solving” the problem a few months ago) (he has enough $$$ to do so)
Just because recently my focus is on the depression that seems to “overide” what I originally feared, the “disorder”, hasn’t gone away…. I have backed off so much. The teachers have backed off so much. His counscelor has bought his bull ****. And no one can “make him” take his meds.
That is exactly what he wanted. I would speculate that he has been “working” towards this “goal” for a long time. (us leaving him alone)
When everyone conforms and lets the sleeping dog “lie”….He lies…..But if we step in and actually try to do our “jobs” and try to actually “educate” him, “parent” him, or
not let him get away with…Whatever the issue would be….missing assignments or an issue at home.
The “dark” side comes out again. 3 months ago my son would have NEVER lashed out at a teacher. He could verbally abuse me all day long (3 months ago)….But would never lash out at a teacher. He has more “control” over this downward spiralling thing than any of us, EVEN in his depleted mental “fog” state. Every line/boundary he has crossed thus far has “worked” for him (in some way). At school and at home.
I see this and I reach out for help….But HELP is not there.
My friends (bless them) are probably at witsend with me. They don’t UNDERSTAND what I try to articulate to them.
Just as many of you have tried to explain to your “situation” with an s to your circle of friends. And they don’t “get it”. Because you almost have to “witness” it or “live it” to get it. The situation with my son is no different.
Regardless if he is a s/n/p in the making or if he has another disorder such as PTSD, coupled with depression……My son is not easy to articulate to the average person.
Dear Witsend,
I think you and all of us agree your son needs some form of medication and probably for both the “disorder” but even moreo pending is the “depression”. The question is how do you accomplish that?!!! For some its a matter of them hitting rock bottom and wanting to seek help…for others its getting the right person to “talk to them/reach them/convince them” that they can get to a better place/feel better/get through this by taking some medication and talking to someone they feel comfortable with… and for others, especially teenagers its a matter of implementing an intervention, 48-72hr hold, court-order, or whatever it takes. And for others the “plan for recovery” can only begin by tweaking the master plan (i.e. your annual physical is tomorrow we have to be there by 4:30…or by saying you have just a few more years until you are going to be considered an adult and able to make your own choices, but as of right now, today, you are 16 and I am legally responsible for your health and well being — I am worried about you and I hope you make the choice to work with me to get you feeling better and to a better place. There isnt anything I wont do for you, and Im going to make sure you/we get through this, etc…..
You are not alone with having a child not easy to articulate to the average person…but you do an amazing job of articulating everything you are going through and witnessing with him.
You just need to find the person/people to “hear” you and implement a plan of action you are comfortable with! HELP IS THERE. It may not be perfect or the complete answer but HELP is out there. All you can do is the best you can!
learnthelesson
I will take him to the MD. That is a way to at least get the medical test done. Blood work, thyroid, etc test.
I have a months Rx in my purse for the meds as we speak. I don’t know if another doctors opinion will make a difference or not to my son as far as the medication. I am more than willing to take him to another doctor.
My son is in denial. He thinks we are the problem. By “we” I mean anyone of “us” that might enter into my sons “world” that would have a difference of opinion than my son has. A teacher, a doctor, a school couscelor, myself, his boss, even his own peers.
He sees everything VERY black and white. NO GREY areas. There is no such thing IN HIS REALITY of the glass of water being either half full or half empty depending on perspective.
In his world “perspective” does not exist. He does not validate that there is no wrong answer to this question. If he would see the glass as being half empty that is the CORRECT answer. Even though there is no correct answer to the question.
There is no “reasoning” with him. Reason and logic do not exist.
About 3 weeks ago I had teacher conferences. Every teacher said the SAME thing. He sleeps in class. Only one had informed me that he fell asleep in their class before the conference.
My favorite teacher, she was always my favorite because she had gone out of her way to try to motivate him & work “with him” the first half of the year told me something that troubled me.
She said she doesn’t even wake him up anymore. I asked her why???? She said because “a sleeping ***** was better than an irritable *****.” (*** stands for his name)
Most everyone that deals with him on a daily basis, ( that consist only of teachers & myself) don’t have the answers of what to do with him anymore. Because NOTHING we have done has had any result.
Not doing anything……..This of course is not a solution to the problem. It is compounding the problem. However no one knows what TO DO anymore.
Dear Witsend,
I hear you. Oh my goodness I hear you…
I lived with a parent who was in HER OWN REALITY…she thought she never needed medication and she had every reason in the book not to take it.. Nothing was wrong with her in her mind and everyone was against her or out to get her. There were several times family members (her parents, her sisters and eventually her own children had to sign papers to have her commited to a mental hospital and each time she had to have been a threat to someone or herself…
one day she said off the cuff to her sister ” if you say one more word to me Im going to cut off your tongue with a kitchen knife”…. well that was enough to get her “in”….
She only listened to people she thought were on her side, or took a different approach to helping her. She always had to believe they were on her side…that nothing was wrong with her… eventually everyone let her live the life she ultimately controlled and chose for herself in her dysfunctional mental state of mind because we could not get her to stay on her meds….
While your son is in your control do everything you can… meet with the new Doctor first…take copies of some of your posts here…they are riveting…explain to him you feel let down by the system and are trying to hold to the hope that someone will hear you, understand you and reach out and help your son before its too late. And most important try to have a renewed sense of faith…dig deep…try to. There is always hope…but sometimes you have to go through sheer hell or your son might have to until something gives.
Is there anyone in his world he trusts right now? Anyone from his past he would “awaken” for… a cousin, an uncle..an old friend….
Im trying to think of things…some you will find utterly absurb or useless, but thats part of this process…sometimes the most unsuspecting positive things happen from ideas… suggestions… we will all keep them coming.
But I hear you and understand your son is not responding or receptive or reasoning with himself or anyone. Still dont let it deter you. He is in a bad place – he cannot be treated like your average teen down in the dumps. But sometimes solutions are not at all what we expect them to be. And other times we do all we can and still come up short…the point is to keep exhausting all avenues until a door opens.
I agree getting him to the MD and getting the bloodwork is another avenue to seekout… and make a consultation appointment by yourself first. Then make a plan of action with the Dr. when your son arrives for his “physical”… continual prayers are coming your way!!! Somethings gotta give !!!!
Dear Wit,
I agree with LTL and suggest that you get an appointment with the MD BEFORE you take your son. The physician may NOT get it either, but s/he may too. I think that is a VERY good suggestion. (You may have to pay cash for this consultation since your son will not be there and insurance may not cover it, so be prepared on that score)
Good luck with all this. I think the people HERE DO GET IT at least so you know you are not alone in this. I am a retired registered nurse practitioner and I worked for some time in an adolescent pscyh inpatient unit, and believe me, I felt for those parents who brought “junior” there with their lives in chaos and in total fear of what was going to happen to their children. For some of them, “Junior” was a budding psychopath and there was little we could do, but for a few there were other issues of bi-polar or depression or other mental health issues that could be treated. ((((hugs)))) and always prayers.
I hear you all…..And I am trying my hardest to hang in there…But the help is just not coming. I am a pretty patient person. But my patience has been tested to the max. To many closed doors. EVERYONE has a limit and I am close to mine.
How hard is it to make an appointment at a doctors office? Not very difficult. But this is first appointment with this doctor ……First avail is late May. I WANT one tommorow. (I’m kidding) And before they will let me make it I have to sign release forms blah, blah, blah.
Instead of focusing on my “work” during the day (how I earn my income) at home, I am focusing on making a dozen phone calls and waiting for call backs & looking for some solutions or options. Running to the wrong court house. Going to sign release forms, yadda, yadda.
I KNOW I SOUND LIKE a broken record…..But I feel like I am just spinning my wheels. I am busy the entire day and have accomplished absolutely NOTHING by the end of the day. And I am completely exhausted.
Firemen run into the burning building while everyone else is running out. (I find that amazing) and brave.
Sometimes I feel somewhat like a fireman. (NOT the brave part) I feel anything but brave. I am scared chitless.
I read on these post people struggling on a daily basis to distance themselves from the s/p/n in their life, and trying to keep either n/c or as little contact as possible if children are involved.
Depending on where they are at in their recovery with their situation they are dealing with their situation the best they can. But the common denominator in most stories is getting away/staying away. To then be able to gain their “reality” back. Because living with a mentally ill person, Or to live with anyone that manipulates and lies to you on a daily basis distorts your own sense of reality. If someone is abusing you on a daily basis you take on the role of the victim.
I don’t have that common denominator. I am running into the burning building.
I know what I am about to say is not something most mothers will identify with.
In trying to “mother” my son I FEEL abused by him. I do NOT ever get the sense that my son FEELS the LOVE. He does not know that I have his best interest at heart. He hates me for taking him to see his counscelor. He hates me for waking him up everyday to go to school. He hates me for trying to get him to stay on the medication.
And when my son tells me “I hate you” he does not yell this in a heated argument or discussion, stomping up the stairs to his room as a teenager might. He does not say it when he isn’t getting his way. And it is not told to me often.
He delivers it in a calm & calculated voice. And when he says it and I look in his eyes, I know he is speaking his truth. I also know it is a form of manipultion. What it feels like though for that moment is LIKE I AM A BAD MOTHER. Was that his intention? Or am I a terrible mother?
Often it feels like I am running into the burning building. And sometimes to be as HONEST as possible here, I want to run away. Away from the building. I am pretty sure most mothers can’t relate to that…..Getting away from your kids for a well deserved break and night out is not what I am talking about.
On a bad day I feel like a prisoner in my own home.
I have lost control. I can’t even get my sick kid to take the medication.