Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Dear learnthelesson,
It is good to know that people do understand. There is valadation in that.
The lack of reality thing is really hard to take. I feel my own reality distorted by his. I don’t know how you could have grown up as a child with this? I hope someone was there for you.
I am so very sorry about your mother. It must have been very hard to grow up in that kind of disfunction.
I have decided to disconnect his computer tonight and get in his face of I have to, to gain some power back. I am scared to tell you the truth. But I am prepared to call 911 if he gets out of control.
I wish I could have some support, someone here, with me, but I don’t know who that would be. My legs are feeling weak already. That should be indication of how scared I really am.
His brother (26 yrs old) is the only one I know of (to answer your question in above post) whom he seems to trust or hold in regard. However his brother when he does get a bit “involved” and ask about why he quit meds or flunking at school, then feels his brother distance from him. So my older sons way of dealing with it right now is by NOT getting involved.
I want him to take the medication. I want to be able to parent him effectively.
Tonight is going to be me trying to get back the authority and not take no for an answer. This is alot easier said than done.
Dear Witsend,
One of things I did was work really hard at realizing my mother NEVER TRULY MEANT THE THINGS SHE SAID AND DID WHEN SHE WAS UNMEDICATED. SOME HURTFUL, SHAMEFUL THINGS TO THE ONES CLOSEST TO HER, THE ONES WHO LOVED HER THE MOST. I had to learn to see her as unhealthy and reacting to the chemical imbalance in her body. Her view of her reality and the reality of the world around her was distorted and so very different.
We cant get anyone to do something they dont want to do. You have not failed in anyway..and you have not lost control although you have every right to feel as though you have…you have temporarily lost your son to depression or a disorder. You have run into so many closed doors and slammed into even more walls. I think its so honest of you to say and share how you are feeling and want you to know that I would feel the same way too.
You are only human. He has no motivation to yell his words or stomp away. He has very little energy to do much except take out so many things on you and others involved in his heathcare. He is not well. He is not bad. And he is not himself. From everything you have shared, you have NOT been living with a monster in the making for years and years. You have been hit with signs and symptoms of a personality disorder and or depression coming to the surface in a teenager…the time these things occur.
You many need to find additional support from other moms that are walking in your shoes with their teenager. Who are experiencing all the same feelings you are and who might be able to offer even more additional support …
From what you have shared, I dont believe its his intention. I believe he is suffering and is need of mental help. You have every right to feel the way you do. Its overwhelming especially as a single working parent.
I can just tell you that I need to talk to nurse practiioners almost daily with my sons medical illness – they require you to call and choose from an option – and unless he is in diabetic keytonic shock or experience severe hypoglycemia they only offer options to speak to a computer or leave a message (after you are on hold for 5 min and 30 sec.. I timed it today…only to be forwarded to a message service that say we will get back to you within 48 hours. my sons new insulin has stopped working… he was 518 last nite at 3am…supp to be between 80 and l80….so I called the emergency number..she said nope unless shock or hypoglycemia she could not take or give the msg to the NP or Doctor and she transferred me to message land where I waited another 5 min 30 sec (please hold,,lines are busy we will be with you shortly, music, and then bam…leave a message and in 48 hours will be back to you…also get this the initial recording says Hi you have reached childrens hosp endocrin dept if you are a referring doctor press one (MORE BIZ for them so they come first…if you are calling for education dept press two (more money for them)…and the most important call from a parent (if you are experiencing hypoglycemia or keytone press 3 ( can you imagine the most lifethreating call has to go through listening 2 other options first???????!!!!! Yes I am ranting…I know but this just happened today and so you know what I did? I pressed the number 1 and go thru to the sweetest girl who thought I would be a referring doctor calling in. I said I am a mother of one of your patients…Im not a Doctor…I have a real live child in my arms who is Hyperglycemic and nothing I do can get his numbers down…I have been trying to reach a human being in your department to help me get a message TODAY to my NP or Doctor…even your emergency line personnel refused because I did not fit the criteria of your “declared” emergency profile. Would you please tell me if this was your child or brother what you recommend I do to reach his nurse or doctor? Because other than to keep calling and begging your emergency line personnel to help me get a message to my sons nurse/doc (which I will do until somebody gets my son new medicine) but Im hoping someone can just take down my name and number and pass it along to our nurse/doctor. As your motto is we are here for you 24/7 with help with your Diabetes care…but I have yet to find this to be true. And I also asked for the name and address of the head of the Childrens Hosp Endocrine Dept.
Wow, had to get that one out! I guess I just want you to know we all are here for you and want so much for your son to get into the right hands or helping hands and that you have our support and shoulders day or night. You will get through this. Some days are really really rough but we manage to get through and keep going. I know you are scared and frustrated, you have every right to be. But stay on course, be persisitent and know although he is treating you like he hates you – he really may be hating “life” right now and everyone in it and around him because of a chemical imbalance or depression. This is something as his mother all you can do is your best. You are not expected to be able to snap him out of it or get him to take his meds…but to just to your best in advocating for him, as he cant right now.
Hang in there…Sorry for sharing my day in this post…but you struck a chord with me about the phone calls and time spent and energy spent and being drained with no end in sight and wanting to just take off…and on a smaller scale I felt that today too. But we stay the course and do the best we can do! Because thats what we do and thats all we can do!!!
Wait…Witsend… I just read your post…posted on top of you. Can you share more of what you are planning tonight? Im wondering if its best to address him on a weekend when school work is not the next day…Im wondering if its best to wait until after you get an appointment with Dr. so at least you get the bloodwork done…I want you to do whats right for you and support your choice..but I dont want you to act out of fear or desperation or upon impulse…and most of all I want you to be prepared for what he may do, say.
Meant, school for him and work for you…not “Schoolwork”… think you get the jist of my concern…there may be other ways to address this with him. Im thinking it may even have to involve his 26 year old brother — or someone other than you so as to maintain some semblance of a relationship with him (even as distant as it is right now)…. just some initial thoughts..but again I support your choice as you know whats best for you right now. I just dont want you to do it impulsively or feeling as though there is nothing else to do…think it through.. as you have done such with everything thus far.
learnthelesson
I am sorry that you had such an awful day! I think it is absolutely unheard of that we can’t get a live person on the phone anymore. I am also sorry that you had a medical emergency and couldn’t get through. That is awful.
My plan is that when he comes home from work (any moment now) I am going to have a talk with him. He will have no computer to escape to. He lost his phone so no texting.
I am not sure that he and I can continue to co-exist in this house for several more weeks (until doctor visit) as things are right now.
I had anxiously waited for the appointment with the psyciatrist this week and that didn’t produce much help. I really had thought this visit was going to produce SOMETHING.
They keep telling me he has to take the medication. I KNOW this. I KEEP telling them I can’t get him to take it.
I keep telling them he needs inpatient treatment something more aggressive. They are telling me that isn’t going to happen.
Its just spinning my wheels again. I am always “waiting” for the next appointment. I’m “waiting” for them to call me back. I’m “waiting” for the right agency or person to come along to help me.
I am just going to try and keep things factual. It is very hard with him as his reality is distorted. I need the team of lawyers behind me when I try to talk to him. He will twist it and turn it, and all of that good stuff. Medication….I am responsible for his well being. I keep repeating that in my head…..
Witsend…good luck tonight. Have you tried “mixing things up” a bit… instead of being or coming across authoratative…more like so what do you think is going to happen between us? Do you ever think about what the future has in store for us as Mom and Son? or saying I dont want you to hate me, I love you, and want us to find common ground. We dont have to be best friends but gods greatest gift to is eachother. How can we make things better between us. What is it that you would like or need from me? Tell me and I will let you know what I can do or how I can meet you in the middle. I miss you. I want to know you again….
And then let him say what he chooses to or not to and maybe leave him with those calm thoughts for the evening…and work your way forward with him…on his fogged level right now… im concerned he is not going to be open or responsive to authoritativeness right now or anytime soon.
But whatever you choose, I hope tonight lends toward some progress for you and for your son. GOOD LUCK. Let us know
I always get these posts so late, everyone has already commented by the time I see them. I hope someone is still reading. I struggled with this topic for so many years in dealing with my mother and all the psychopathic men I’ve been involved with.
The best thing I finally realized after reading, learning and absorbing as much about psychopathy as I could get my hands on is that the most threatening thing for these people is the threat of exposure.
My ex boyfriend whom I wasted 6 years on turned out to be a text-book psychopath. After we broke up I finally caught on found this site among other great sources of info on this trait. Even I found out he’d been cheating on me for years and I realized our “relationship” was a con, he had the nerve to contact me. He tried manipulating me again, hoping I could give him free interior design service for the home we had been building together. It was to be our dream home. He’s a builder. He encouraged me to use my design training to “build the home we’d live in together forever”. Afters it was in the final stages of building he broke up with me.
Fast forward to now. He’s with someone new. She can’t fill my shoes in the design department ( I have a degree). He begins working on me. All the good times. How much he misses me. Etc, etc. I fall for it. We meet. I agree to help. After he gets what he wants he tells me “I had no intention of us getting back together. I don’t feel that way about you anymore”. On paper sounds like nothing, but in person it crushed my soul. Even worse, he refused to pay me.
Then I figured it out. Everything these people do is based on lies. When they dump the old relationship, they dump everyone they used to know when in that relationship. None of the “new people” know who this man really is. I called him and emailed him dozens of times demanding payment with no response.
When it clicked, I emailed once. I told him “If you don’t pay me what you owe me I’ll EXPOSE you.” Very simply. I immediately got hourly calls from him. I was paid the next day.
The threat of exposure is their greatest fear. USE THIS!!!! It’s very powerful and it works!!
lernthelesson
Well maybe using the word “authorative” was the wrong choice of words. I wanted be in a position of telling him how much I love him and want the best for him. Yet I can NOT stand by and watch him make all of the bad decisions that he has made this past year. Anymore than I would let him cross the street when he was 2 years old by himself.
His future is always about the “grandious” plan. That hasn’t changed. The grandious plan is why he doesn’t need a high school education.
I tried to keep things calm. And things didn’t escalate out of control. I was firm in the respect to stay on track & he kept trying to “lead” things into the maipulation thing he does. (going off subject)
On task or not on task. End result is he won’t take them.
He is adamant that he is not depressed and that I can NOT force him to take the medication.
stillsorting: I am sorry to read how you were hurt, I hope you are feeling better now. I broke up with someone (quite some time ago) and he said “I’m not in love with you, I never said that”… oh, I guess he was careful never to say it, but isn’t it ever implied? Or am I that stupid? It crushed my soul too.
I am impressed that you were able to collect on the work you did for him!!!! Checkmate!!!!
So today I received the spin letter from the fallout after the deposition. I knew it would be coming, just wasn’t sure of the accusations he would come up with…..it was pretty comical, but sad.
This is typical smokescreen behavior for him. Of course, the truth as we lived it will never come out from him, but I will hold strong to my documentation etc… I will NOT Have a sociopath ruin my future financially…I WILL NOT!!!!!
One of the things I have learned about the S is…..listen very carefully and try to take YOUR emotions out. Don’t react, just listen….whether it comes in letter, person or another involved party. If you listen carefully at the claims, you will see it is exactly what THEY are doing. Anything that the S speaks or claims is a projection. It is so ironic and he has no idea.
So now he has given me more insight on the ‘position’ he is taking by his accusations and I know where to look for answers to bring to court. When we were together, it was called crazy making. Now it’s called information gathering for me.
One of the things the letter states is how he’s thinks he’s dragging in some of MY family members to act as HIS ‘go between’ with the kids. He feels it’s HIS right to have access to his kids.
The thing he doesn’t realize now is that these family members are now on to him and the behaviors and want nothing to do with him or the situation. He was so counting on having them superglued in his back pocket and they would do whatever he wanted.
Even though currently he was granted a telephone call a week to the kids, none have chosen to speak to him on any occasion. This has been over a year of NC for them. But for some reason he feels its HIS right! And he will be damned if he doesn’t exert HIS rights each week. He doesn’t give a damn if he upsets the kids….because it’s HIS right. If he gave it an ounce of thought, he would seek help for ‘why’ his kids want nothing to do with him, not keep touching the same hot flame and wondering why he is burned. A self imposed victim.
Once again….all about HIM! Shocking….not! Sad….definately!
I will NOT be bullied by S attorney or him through others, nor will I allow the kids to be bullied.
This is a long road…..but I’m in it even after the pavement ends! I’m in 4 wheel drive now and I have NEW TIRES!!!!