Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
stillsorting:
Congrats that worked for you and you got what was well-deserved! I wish I could find a successful method. My ex n/p still owes me thousands for a home we purchased together. I’ve pretty much given up on it. Anytime I’ve ever tried to “expose” him he finds a way to turn it around and make me look like the evil one for spreading such “viscious lies” about him. This guy could sell ice water to an eskimo and can convince anyone of just about anything. He was a used car salesman for a while. GO FIGURE!
Matt:
Got a legal ‘insiders’ question. Is it inappropriate for me to send the judges….not just mine, but all currently sitting on the bench in family court, information on Anti socials, Narcissits and S’s? As an informative tool to look through?
I had been in touch with them during the elections to ask them HOW they deal with these types from the bench, and were they aware of these issues. The judiciary has so much control that it would be helpful for continuing education on these topics and how they relate to domestic violence. If the judges can see something odd, and they have a bit of awareness on the behaviors, They could take better control of their courtroom and not let the S run the show. If they were aware, they would not offer chances for the S’s to continue to abuse and manipulate. My ‘platform’ during the election was saving tax dollars, speeding up the process and freeing up the docket, by raising awareness through education of the judiciary of the behaviors to watch for in the courtroom, or what is given to them in documentation.
We all know we can’t come right out and say “he’s a sociopath’….and without understanding of the behaviors and how hard it is to diagnose…..what is your experience professionally? (I am not sure what area you work in law wise).
During the elections I received a lot of judges wanting more information on the topic. I provided what I had. the response I got were very positive and receptive. Many felt there should be continuing education directly on these behaviors. They wanted to know.
So….would it be appropriate to send along more information to them? I didn’t do it originally with my name, or mention my case in any way? What contact is appropriate?
I want my judge to have some awareness before I get to court, and this will most certainly help others aswell.
What do ya think?
I want to put something out there that I deal with on a regular basis with my ex N/P. He also has a daughter from a previous marriage who is 21 years old. I do everything I can to encourage the relationship between my daughter and her older sister; I’m even friends with HER mother and my daughter adores her as well. N/P gets pissed off at his older daughter when she either visits my girl or takes her for a weekend. He also went months without speaking to HIS mother because she was spending time with my daughter and having her spend the night sometimes. He views his own family as doing me some kind of favor by spending time with my daughter, who is also his daughter, and their sister or granddaughter. Has anyone had a similar experience or advice for dealing with this situation?
ErinB
http://highconflictinstitute.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,50/
This site does what you have asked Matt, check it out perhaps it will help
http://highconflictinstitute.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,50/
There’s no such thing as luck! so Good preparing !
“If you listen carefully at the claims, you will see it is exactly what THEY are doing. Anything that the S speaks or claims is a projection. It is so ironic and he has no idea.”
OMG Erin you hit the nail on the head with that one!
Witsend,
All you can do is exactly what you are doing. I would consider getting someone else close to him, someone he trusts to start “”hanging out” with him, spending time with him…taking him places…someone he feels comfortable just being who is right now — maybe it will offer more insight into whether or not this is a depression or a mental illness. I would also definitely follow thru no matter what it takes on getting him in MDs office to get a physical. And lastly be as vigilant as possible with the direction he is going in…if you notice he is status quo – maybe ride it out as the summer is coming — you said he is working– so he is managing to hold a job?? If you notice he is faltering and getting worse and his personality worsens or becomes highly defensive or threatening to you IN ANY WAY – WITSEND, THIS IS IMPORTANT – IF HE MAKES ANY SINGLE OFF THE CUFF COMMENT IN HARMING YOU OR HIMSELF OR THREATENS ANYONE IN ANYWAY (EVEN IF IT APPEARS UNINTENTIONAL OR YOU WANT TO BELIEVE HE DIDNT MEAN IT)…THAT IS YOUR GOLDEN TICKET TO INPATIENT – TO GETTING HIM ADMITTED AGAINST HIS WILL AND THEY ABSOLUTELY FORCE HIM TO TAKE HIS MEDS IN THERE!
It is a waiting thing, a learning thing, a timing thing. You become a balancing act — trying to figure and sort HIM out — whats too much, whats not enough — how many so/so days — how many awful days. No matter what you do DONT GIVE UP – keep trying to have conversations with him about things that have nothing to do with his health — about things you think he might respond to. He may or may not, but the point is to keep trying to stay connected with him right now – on any level you can. Patiently waiting for the ball to drop where it may. Obviously if you believe he is in danger or you are in danger you know what to do.
While it would be wonderful for us to be able to prevent what may be to come, we cant always until they give us that first redflag that they are in need of intervention. Your son seems like he is on his way there, when that ball drops (he threatens you or someone else or yourself) you will be prepared.
Depression and mental illness are diseases that dont offer the family members relief – because the patient doesnt always feel there is anything wrong with them — during that time — it truly is a balancing act of sorts for the family members — trying to figure out how to survive and function in their own home. And yes sometimes you have to let it sink into your system that the mentally ill person is not the person you raised and now you have to adjust your ways of interacting with him to maintain your sense of self everything.
He refuses to take his medication. Is there any incentive for him at all to take it? Can you say, if you think it wont help you feel better in any way and I think Im not sold on that yet,,,but you may be right..or you may be wrong..so can you try it again for a month…and if you at least try it for a month this is what Im willing to do (some kind of reward ???) Or can his brother visit and even if he pulls away – his brother not turn away– but keep on him. It involves a lot of creativity. And lastly it involves waiting…waiting to see if the time is right to seek that court order or call 911 or keep having conversations. Perhaps even saying I cant make you or force you to take medication — that is something that you have to do for yourself when you are ready – but I can enforce and plan on enforcing proper respect and treatment of eachother in our home. From schoolwork, to computer time, to responsibility and I can continue to love you and always will because you are my son. But I cannot make you take meds and I cannot be responsible for your poor choices – you are a young adult now. I can only continue to offer my guidance and support and expect the respect I deserve while we go through this together…because I will never give up on you…
learnthelesson
Wow your second paragraph really nailed it. Waiting, learning, timing. That is exactly what it is like.
The thing that is really hard for me is “keeping up”. I don’t have a balancing act yet. Things progress, escalate, then drop to a more subtle level. Then they escalate again. The irritibility seems to always be there on the surface but the degree or intensity is what I mean changes. When I begin to feel like I have a grip on what is going on “right now” , something else presents itself.
Intuitively I believe he has more than one thing going on. I have thought that for awile.
When I focus on trying to effectively deal with the depression to the best of my ability, I am slammed with dealing with the mood/personality disorder. The intertwining of the two keep me confused.
When each different “side of himself” present themselves to me I have different emotions as well. Interaction with him can be very difficult if not impossible one day and a little easier the next. Sometimes within the HOUR (even less) he can act like whatever happened, (even something pretty intense) Never happened.
Also I believe when you “live with something” on a daily basis it becomes the “norm” even though you know it ISN’T you are somewhat more immune to it than you were a month ago or a week ago. And on a day where everything seems to be presenting itself at the same time and out of control you realize how not “normal” things really are. And I often feel like I am trying to “survive” here. And that in itself seems strange to me…..
My sons part time job is something that I am unsure of how long he will be able to manage. It is a seasonal job from last year. His first job ever. He was called back. Last year the job seemed to be good for him. He seemed to enjoy earning money. A plus for his self esteem. But LAST year at this time and this year, it is like we are talking 2 different kids here.
He doesn’t have to work under a “boss” because they leave about the time he arrives. Generally he works with another young kid. His attitude this year about the job has changed. Last year he WANTED to work and be there this year he doesn’t. Because he works with another kid and in an outdoor setting he doesn’t have to be as “accountable” as with a regular job. His attitude is if they don’t like it they can fire me. Only time will tell if he will be able to “function” there much longer. Last year he would have gone in every time they called, EVEN if it was his only day off.
One of the ways my son consistantly tries to manipulates me is that he will say “You don’t love me”. This is thrown out there usually during a disagreement or if he isn’t getting his way. (unlike the more calculated/cold “I hate you”, he has only said this a few times)
My INITIAL reaction to this when he said it the first couple of times was of course trying to assure him how much I did love him. Now although I do assure him that ISN’T TRUE & I love you, I don’t GIVE him this “big reaction” that he is possibly looking for.
Yesterday when I dropped him off at work he was dropping the whole I don’t love him thing on me while we were having a disagreement about school.
But right when he got out of the car and before he slammed the door he said…..”You wouldn’t care if I dropped dead”. Now see to me that is concerning….But it is also very manipulating. He has not said THAT before so it concerns me. On the other hand it also is adding more “drama” to the “I Don’t Love Him” because I don’t react to that.
So most of the time I feel this anxious feeling in the pit of my gut and I am trying to process what just happened. I need time to process as that is my NATURE. I don’t do rash decisions.
Right now he still has no computer, and no phone. Things did not end good last night. But they didn’t get out of control either. He went to bed STILL refusing to take his meds and that was the end of it.
ErinBrokovich:
Every state has its own judicial ethics code and codes of professional conduct. You can’t send the judge who is hearing your case information while he is hearing your case. That is a prohibitted ex-parte communication — it would look like you’re trying to improperly influence his decision making process during a case.
I don’t see a problem with sending general communications to your state’s judiciary — with one caveat — I’d be careful about appellate level judges while you are currently in litigation with S. Because if the case was sent “up” on appeal, the appellate judge would probably have to disclose your contact with him.
One thought I had is maybe you should approach your state’s judges conference and ask them about permissible and prohibitted communications with a judge.
Dear Witsend,
Im sorry for what you are going through and having to deal with. I think what you said about not giving him any kind of “big reaction” is an excellent thing.
My suggestion is to write your son a letter. Write the letter from your heart focusing on what a wonderful joy it was for you the day he entered the world and your life. Tell him how he brought so much to your life and how you always loved watching him grow and learn and become the person he is today.
Tell him it hurts you deeply when he tells you “You dont love me” – tell him you find yourself speechless and dont know where this has come from. But that it cant be further from the truth. Tell him in writing I just want you to know I LOVE YOU.
Tell him you arent sure what he is going through right now, but that as his mom you are willing to stay the course with him and figure out what is making him feel so much anger and hurt and isolation.
Dont mention taking meds, or doing poorly at school or anything negative. Just focus on letting him know he is loved but being loved doesnt mean being allowed to disrespect his mother. Tell him you are always there for him and are willing to meet him half way, to find a compromise and make things better again for both of you.
(Witsend — if this is depression — you may get a return letter from him if you keep it simple and basic and non authorative or threatening — and that this is not about love- this is about getting through a tough time together. If this is a personality disorder you may get a verbal reaction or no reaction at all. If this is both you will probably get a mix of both….the point is do not let his words or actions cause you to react in an emotional way — you are more like a scientist now — experimenting on different ways to reach your son — you actually have to take note of what he reacts to in positive way, what he reacts to in selfish ways and what he doesnt react to at all.
Here is something else Ive found to be true — there is no “processing” for the family members dealing with depression or mental illness because you are not dealing with a rational person where you need to process what they mean or what their intent was — all you need to process is “cant take it personally or emotionally” – take it for what it is – an unhealthy action or reaction. Take your emotions out for now in terms of reacting to anything he does – but keep them present in terms of expressing you love him and wont give up on him. AGAIN – if you were dealing with a diagnosed sociopath/psychopath I would not be giving you this advice…but at the moment you arent sure what you are dealing with so you must err on the side of caution that its depression or personality disorder and tread lightly and lovingly.
Witsend, these are all just suggestions. Nothing I suggest or anyone else suggests is anything you have to do – just suggestions. I suggest writing him the letter because it is something he is not expecting and it is something you can actually see how he chooses to react to it. Again, nothing negative — just filled with love and concern and realness from his mom.
Right now, the reality is you are trying to “survive” and you are also trying to help your son “survive” yes this feels strange to you and unfair but it is the reality of this present situation in your life. So now that you are aware of the strangeness of it all – you will be better able to deal with what comes with having to “Survive” through a teenage depression or personality disorder. It is a long haul, but not an impossible one. And we all handle, deal and react differently to situations in our lives. My sister had to heal/fix my mom – she never embraced the fact that my mom was mentally ill she would yell at her why do you say things like you do – I on the other hand let my mom say whatever she did – I never challenged her the few and far between times we were together – for me it was like I knew she wasnt on medication and I “went along with where she was in her head” so as to have peace. We all cope and learn and grow in our own ways with the strangeness that comes with living with a depressed or mentally ill person. But the letter will not only be in your sons hands it will leave your hands knowing whether or not it reaches him inside right now or someday in the future – it will always be there for him to have.
From all you have shared I do think beyond that it is a waiting, balancing, timing — work will progress or worsen — he will open up more to you or shut down — he will make better choices or bad choices — and the time may come where the only action you can take is putting him somewhere against his will – to get medication. In the meantime, keep reaching out to him in creative ways, different ways, unexpected ways and make notes of anything that seems to work or not work.
Keep boundaries in place (with mental illness and depression they can still understand RESPECT and RIGHT FROM WRONG. He can go to his room, but he cannot disrespect you along the way. And most importantly you are not trying to “win his love” or his “approval” you are just trying to reach him in way that gives you some sense of connection to him in the fogged state of mind he is in or in the depressed state of mind he is in until something gives – either within him – or with an intervention of sorts.
What I learned with my Mom is whatever will be is going to be. We can only do our best for our loved ones. Sometimes the ending is recovery and sometimes the ending is a different life than we imagined for ourselves and for our loved ones. As long as we try everything we can, we know we have done the best we can. Witsend you are doing that and time will tell. Remain optimistic and only time will tell! Just know you are not alone and you can get through this with some creativity and support!!
learnthelesson
I really appreciate that you have taken the time to not only talk me through this but put out some suggestions of things that I can do.
I need to journal what I see/experience with him on a daily basis. I think that would be helpful to me to “look back”.
After not recieving a phone call back and waiting for 3 days(leaving several messages) I became more assertive and found out a bit more about filing incorrigible teenager with the court.
This is something his doctor recommended to me and I can’t do it once he turns 17. When I say “processing”, this is more what I mean by that. I have to process (in my head) if this is something I need/want to do. Not so much process what just happened so to speak. More, What do I want to do with this information/situation? How do I want to deal with it?
I have decided that this is something I do need to do. It is more of an INTERVENTION type of program and that is what I have been wanting/searching to find all along. He DOESN’T need to break the law to be eligible for this, and everything else seems to require that!
I was told the program has its flaws. But the one thing that it has that nothing else seems to have is that he will be REQUIRED to go. Not just something he can refuse like his meds, or doing his school work. A court order (if I can get him into this) will require him to show up. Seeing as he has a problem with “authority” and seeing as he has been proven to undermine it up until now, it seems fit that he UNDERSTANDS before he does take that wrong road towads juvinile deliquency, that he can’t just continue down this self destructive path. WELL HE CAN…..But consequences will be different than what he has experienced so far.
The processing for me is how I was able to finally remove emotion from every day encounters I had with my son.
I couldn’t always remove the emotion when I talked to people about it. (counscelor, etc) SOME days I still can’t. BUT I have managed to stay calm/collected with my son when it is happening…. So even if I “loose” it when “telling” someone about what happened, often it is hard to reopen or relive the experience through words….I am getting better. Some times I cry when writing these post. Its almost like I need to release it but I need to control when that release happens.
I will write him a letter. That is a good idea. I can actually write better than I can talk.
He has done the “shut down” mode. The first time he did this I was angry. (6 months ago) He had computer/privleges taken away because he was flunking 2 subjects and his reaction was to shut down completely at school and do nothing.
Second time I was actually very concerned. Was during the WORST period of his depression. Right at the end of winter/cold weather. I was blogging on here about it quite often. It was more of a COMPLETE shut down. And not long ago. During this time I was very scared. Every day. It was at this time that I really felt he needed inpatient treatment.
Again I thank you for sharing with me your excellent thoughts and advice.
My son will get to spend some time with his brother tomorrow after school and spend the night with him as I have a show that I have to do out of town. Even though it is work I am thinking the break will do us both some good. And time spent with his brother is something he can benifit from as he doesn’t get enough of it.