Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Dear Witsend,
Thats sounds like a good plan. Im sorry I misunderstood what you meant about “processing” and what you have explained it to be is certainly understandable. I just encourage you to exist with him with boundaries as well as with an understanding that he isnt himself and in order to function with that…you may have to tweak your reaction responses by internally reminding yourself to stay on course and dont get caught up in his unhealthy comments or reactions right now. Pick and choose your battles for now in a way that minimal confrontation exists (if possible).
I also am someone who has to think it through, and investigate possibilities and feel comfortable I am making the right decisions with my children. I remind myself often that parenting has no handbook, or guidebook and I even let my kids know that I am working with them at this stage of their lives as they become more and more of who they each are. I let them see I am vulnerable at times just so they get a sense of my realness rather than just some disciplinarian! My goal isnt to be their best friend, but it isnt to control them either. Like you, I just want the best for them… And I am an emotional person too. What you are dealing with is very emotional Witsend — tears are necessary. And yet at the same time when with counselor, others and your son its necessary to keep it in check and express yourself with sheer rationality and confidence about what is going on.
You have gone through a lot in the past six months. You have done an amazing job in research and reaching out and reliving through sharing your experience here for others who may find themselves struggling with their teenagers in a very serious way. So I thank you for sharing such a personal story as well.
I think the letter will be a positive thing for you and maybe if not in the moment for your son — some day down the road. I would absolutely keep it positive and heartfelt without any blame or any negativity as he is a magnet right now for focusing on anything negative he can wrap his mind around. Just positive reinforcing loving words without any expectations for a response from him. It will just be interesting to see what he says, does or doesnt do. And good for you to know the letter is in his hands – and something that he may actually process alone and in silence…who knows though.
I agree the break will do you both some good. I dont know how much his brother knows or doesnt know, but I would just make sure you bring him up to par about what you want or dont want him to mention to your son. (ie the intervention or mom told me this….or that…) I dont usually go there with my kids but when dealing with depression or disorders everyone has to be sensitive to what might set a person off. Maybe your older son can just hang out, take note, mention NOTHING, see how it goes and what happens…sorry if I give too many suggestions…I just want your plan to finally fall into place for you without your son being set off by anything else that can be avoided!
My thoughts and continual prayers are with you. I think of my teenage children and your son and all the teenagers out there at risk for stress and peer pressure and life to catch up with them and all of a sudden we find ourselves struggling to help them and help ourselves get through it. So its easy for me to share with you and troubleshoot with you because I know its something none of us are immune to in our family lives.
Enjoy your down time tomorrow night…even though its work…its a distraction and time away. Keep us posted.
Witsend:
I went through a situation with my son and, to some extent still do.
The weight on our shoulders as a loving and concerned parent is…..I want to do all I can to help the child…..and if I don’t act and suicide occurs, I could never forgive myself.
I want to do all I can to find the child help.
My son was depressed and anxiety ridden, cutting and failing school, aggressive, manipulative and controlling to me and avoiding life.
I allowed him to be subjected to all these behaviors from his father, thinking I could “HELP” him…..show him….I could not. By my staying with an S, it showed my kids what I was willing to take, excuse and put up with. They learned from the master. I take responsibility for that!
The reality is, and you are finding out. The more we push oru kids, the more they retreat. They look for reactions and get them, they learn what ‘works’ and they use it. (As hurtful and scary as it is for us).
There are not many resources for the kids sliding through the cracks.
My son refused meds, to this day. Went through counseling, watching his IPOD….waiting for the hour to be up. I cried out, reached out…..to no satisfactory avail for me. I looked into bootcamps, christian camps, hospitals and the ‘system’. I couldn’t afford 30 -80K for a bootcamp. I thought about if my son did commit suicide, could I NOT afford the bootcamp? I wrestled with that. I found most programs for teens were voluntary and there was NO way he would agree to any of it, he made that clear.
Your right, if they go into the system, they ‘learn’ from new friends and tactics to use. It just provokes them and not helpful. In my sons case this was not the answer. He was not a delinquent not stealing, doing drugs etc…, but a child hurting from life. I still wrestel with my own boundries with him…..no, holes in doors is NOT okay, speaking to me in certain tones is NOT okay, not doing well in school, coming home when he wishes etc….all not okay.
I kept in touch with teachers, counselors, youth leaders weekly, sometimes daily. I know my son had a ‘community’ watching out for him. He manipulated them all, played along, told them whatever he thought they wanted to hear. They all caught on eventually, some gave up, some placated him, but some held his nose to the grindstone. I was told by a school counselor, let us do the ‘dirtywork’. As a parent, we are stupid to them, we don’t know anything, they don’t respect our guidance or opinions. The angels at school were willing to be the guidance.
I told him, he needs to learn how to live HIS life, with HIS responsibilities and obligations. He will in HIS time. I figured out that he is like an elastic band that has lost some elasticity. When upsets happen in his life, he takes months to bounce back. This is frustrating to me.
His counselor told me……I have done all I can, tried to open every door and window, reach him from all directions…..He is choosing to shut me out. I am going to have to let ‘life be his teacher’.
At first I viewed it as giving up…..but I can’t take responsibility for all his actions, they are his.
So….I backed off, allowed him to fail, listened to him when he came to me and validated his feelings. It was ironic how he would come to me when he felt he had been wronged….a teacher was too harsh, his boss fired him because they are stupid, girlfriend broke up with him. I would just listen to him and say, I’m sorry your feeling that way. I didn’t harp about school, pending summer school, no money, medications, behaviors or anything.
The more we harp, the more they hide it. It doesn’t stop the behavior, it makes them more sneaky.
NOW….I have backed off, he is realizing ‘what life is teaching him’ as the teaching is occuring. It’s not coming from me. It’s harsh reality. He is more willing to come to me and talk, we still take long drives….he opens up by the next town, and I keep on driving……He stopped the cutting, he is attending counseling and makes his own appointments, he is doing better in school. The dark poetry, romanticizing death is no longer on myspace, his circle of friends has changed and they come over to our house on fri and sat nights for movie night.
For ME, I am way lessed stressed day to day, minute to minute….I still worry and have to remind myself to back away, bite my tongue and let go. It’s his life.
This has worked for us, so far. We are coping and getting through.
I still keep an eye on facebook and myspace and emails, and I know who hes hanging out with and what’s going on in his life this way and by what he chooses to tell me.
I am confident I have set a good moral example for him, I know I have taught him the lessons in life, I know I have done all I can for him……I believe the counselors are right…..he is going to have to learn now from life. I hate the way he goes about it, I don’t want to see him hurt, but I can’t rescue him from situations HE gets himself into. As hard as it is….it’s the ‘tough love’ concept. (I never realized what tough love meant….I thought the tough part was for the child, but it’s tough on the parent and love for the child).
If he doesn’t get up in the morning for school…..I don’t bail him out with a ride or a note, if he misses work…..he get’s to wonder why he got fired. If he fails, because of his own choices….it’s on him.
YES, it hurts…..but what I was doing wasn’t working and hurt more. I wanted to raise a successful, well adjusted adult. He isn’t looking in that direction. I don’t give him money, I don’t give him rides, I hold him accountable for helping around the house, I provide for him the minimum…..food,shelter and clothing. If he wants better, he can go earn it. In truth, this is our lives, so why do we provide so much for our kids? I hold him accountable for his anger and outbursts. I will not be abused by him and I am willing to put him out if he get’s physical. He is so manipulative, he will always have a place to crash….for now. But, like his father, he will always go from one ‘supply’ to another……I can’t control what others are willing to do for him.
I have come to a place in my heart where I know I have done all I can do for him. It’s his choices now, he is on the verge of adulthood.
My heart goes out to you, you love your son, want the best for him. I wish you all the strength in the world to weather this storm……and hopefully for you both, ‘this too shall pass’.
Hospice:
The high conflict institute is a FANTASTIC resource. I found them last year, I did contact them and got some information, would have loved to attend the seminars…..but broke, so nocando. I did order the ebooks, YES…..highly recommend. I did pass along this information to the bar in November, the DA’s office and the sherrifs office. I spoke to a supreme ct. judge about the institute and she was in charge on continuing education for the local bar and thought this would be very helpful. I think we need to raise awareness of the behaviors, signs, abuse and destruction caused covertly. They are rare breeds that need to be exposed by anyone who figures them out.
Thanks for posting the HIGH CONFLICT INSTITUTE link….if any of the LF readers are unaware of this resource, check it out.
MATT:
Thanks for the info….when I was in touch in OCT/NOV it was under a different name and as a voter asking the sitting and those running for the family court positions their position on S/AS/BPD issues and how they affect the courts and how they handle these cases from the bench and how they felt these persons could be ‘managed’ better from the bench.
I think after my case is done….if ever…..I will go back and hit hard on this point and necessity with the Bar and judiciary.
I just don’t think we can sit here and HOPE that judges ‘get it’. And I do believe it’s a situation of you either ‘getit’ or you don’t. But I feel awareness and education on the topic is key to the understanding of those of us that face this challenge that stand in front of the courts.
Dear learnthelesson & Erin,
AGAIN thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I have 2 days were I will be gone working at a show but during my down time I will process….
witsend:
Go, get away, decompress and get some well deserved rest!
Take a break girl and TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF!!!
I believe there is a Supreme Court case on point about forcing someone to take meds. They can’t even do it to avert an insanity defense, but I’m not sure how it applies to a minor.
Under some circumstances kids can be compelled to take medication while inpatients. Also, adults can be forceably medicated if they are combative (also in an inpatient setting or in prison)
The last supreme court hearing about forced medication that I know about was over a man who was “insane” without his medication and therefore couldn’t be executed, but by taking his medications he was “sane” and COULD be executed, he was refusing to take the medications so he could not be executed while off the medications. I BELIEVE (and I may be worng) that they did force the meds and did execute him. but my CRS is so bad I’m not sure if I remember correctly. Matt might be up on this (since he is a lawyer).
Witsend, I also second Erin’s suggestion that you get away for a day or a weekend or whatever you can manage and decompress from the stress.
You talk about your son’s job….how is he holding on to the job with his bad attitude? Obviously, I wold think, that he must “adjust” his attitude while he is at work or he would be fired pretty quickly.
Which tells me, at least, that he CAN modify his behavior if he is “rewarded” for doing so….if he is modifying in one situation, and not in the other, he is obviously being “rewarded” (with something he wants) by being an ass and acting out….like not being made to do things he sees no “reward” in doing (like studying).
If he values the job, you might tell him that if he doesn’t start performing in school, you will withdraw your permission for him to work (and I believe you can do that) so you might have a “lever” to work with him on his behavior in school and at home. No job, no money,=no goodies to buy.
Erin is right, though, take care of YOU! ((((hugs)))) and always prayers! Love oxy
Oxy –
You are dead on right. The case is Washington v. Harper, and all the Supremes require is a hearing to determine that the inmate is dangerous to himself of others. They just cannot do it involuntarily without a hearing. It’s a landmark case on Wikipedia:
Washington v. Harper 494 U.S. 210 (1990)
The United States Supreme Court granted a Writ of Certiorari.[3]
The American Psychological Association submitted an amicus brief in support of the inmate’s right to a due process hearing, stating forced medication of an incarcerated inmate violated the due process, equal protection, and free speech clauses of the Constitution of the United States.[4]
Decision
The US Supreme Court reversed, finding the use of an internal institutional review was adequate in making treatment decisions in this case under the lesser standard of review embodied in Turner v. Safely, 482 U.S. 78 (1987).
The United States Supreme court ruled that the Due Process Clause permits a state to treat an incarcerated inmate having a serious mental disorder with antipsychotic medication against his will, under the condition that he is dangerous to himself or others and the medication prescribed is in his best medical interest.[5]
The medical decisions for minors generally rest with parents except specific things like abortion and when parents are refusing life saving treatment.
Erin – You make an excellent point. Judges, prosecutors, police, need to understand this syndrome the way we do. These guys are getting away with scams on law enforcement. Mine’s PO probably thinks he’s still “working” for me 🙂
Oxy,
Job was his first job ever. Worked there last year and was called back a couple weeks ago as it is seasonal. Last year he liked the job and making money. This year he does have a bad attitude with work. Night and day difference from last year at this time.
He works outdoors and doesn’t have as much “accountability” as he might with a regular job as he works with another younger kid. And the boss goes home about the time he arrives. Sometimes on the weekends when he works the boss is there and his “attitude” might catch up with him.
I struggled with “the job” when he was called back as he is doing SO poorly in school. The job seemed to do him some good last year though. I was very close to not allowing him to take the job until school was out because of his grades.
This year though the job really couldn’t be used as leverage. He has the attutude that “if they don’t like it they can fire me”. So if he keeps that attitude, I would think it only a matter of time before it will catch up to him.
Just like school has caught up with him. If you heard my son tell his “version” of how he sees his school situation he “acts” as if he is going to be a junior next year. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. I went to the school on Thursday before I left for the weekend and he is 4 credits short of the MINIMUM requirement to pass this year. He has been steady lying to to me about this for the past few weeks. Telling me he is making up these credits in pass lab and blah, blah,…..I all along knew this wasn’t true (couldn’t possibly be making up THAT many credits) but was NOT certain how many credits he was actually down, because I wasn’t sure of the minimum requirement. He appears so unaware of the “reality” of the situation. And still “acting” as if this isn’t possible (for him to fail this year)
He also has his counscelor thinking he is doing better in school because that is what my son tells him. And so I had the school print me all of his DAILY failing marks and all of the techers “comments” of how he is sleeping in class, refusing to do his work, etc. I am tired of telling his counscelor over and over again how my son LIES about everything. So I am just going to give his counscelor these papers and let him see it for himself. As it is quite a different picture than the one my son is “painting” for him at his sessions. I might even give his brother a copy of this as he has his brother thinking he is doing better as well.
Instead of me telling these people maybe they need to see for themselves.
I was gone for 2 days but it was a “working weekend” not pleasure. However it did do me good to get away for a few days. I did have some time to think about some things without the “pressure” of always being right in the moment.
The problem with going away for a few days and leaving the problem behind is that when you come back the problem still exist. When your working a show sometimes that is a good distraction as there were times I didn’t even think about it as I was so busy….
I know that my anxiety level is at an all time high as I wake up several times a night with mini nightmares and they are always about fear. I usually don’t even remember my dreams if and when I have them so this is a totally different sleep pattern for me.
I have been reading your past post from last week lernthelesson. There was lots of info in them and wanted to refresh. And it is hard for me to conclude what to do as far as daily interaction with him.
Most of the time my son is playing me just as he would a musical instrument. However the difference is the “darkness ” behind it all. It’s not just teenage “stuff”.
Most often his lies are not “about” making up a story to get out of a jam because he is late for curfew or any other number of reasons a teenager might lie. He lies constantly and consistently about EVERYTHING.
When he is lying about something of “importance” these lies are so intertwined with the LACK OF REALITY of the situation it is almost unbelievable even to me. AND I have heard these lies over and over again.
It really is hard to determine if he has any concept of the “real world”? I am very confused by this on a DAILY BASIS.
This by far is my biggest problem. I don’t know if he is has created his own little world and he really has NO CONCEPT of reality or if this is the illusion he creates because of the constant lies. Is it part of the manipulation or is that a part of the mental illness that he suffers?
These questions that I struggle with on a daily basis I feel are very IMPORTANT in how I deal with the situation on a daily basis. If his mental illness creates a “fog zone” (for lack of better wording) and he really does have an unrealistic sense of reality than that is even MORE REASON that he should be on medication. If his moods are constantly flexuating from high irritability, to anger, sadness and/or one intense mood to another. I don’t know how to interact with him most of the time. That is the one word that describes things the best. INTENSE.
Right now I am unable to figure out what is the RIGHT thing I should be doing. I think the letter that learnthelesson suggested is a good idea. However I am not sure that making myself VULNERABLE in the letter is a good thing to do. I think I need to assure him of the love and concern that I have for him. However I am uncertain of how much emotion to show.
I felt very emotional when this all started with him. And he saw that in me. Sometimes I think it was used against me. In other words he seemed to find the weak link. So I have tried to show less emotion when I interact with him now.
In looking at this from the perspective of the depression it IS the RIGHT thing to do. But if I look at it from the perspective of the personality disorder, it does NOT SEEM like the right thing. I feel I am just giving him more fuel for the fire.
Many days I am confused if I am mothering a child that is depressed and my focus should be on this or if he is on his way to becoming a serious anti social disorder adult. It appears during the last few weeks that the roles “switch” from time to time.
Today I have another pressing issue to deal with as my dog is very sick and I am taking her into the vet. I am off to do that.
Thanks for listening….