Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Dear Andrea,Welcome.
Your child is only 12 now, ALOT can happen in the 2 yrs. before your child can legally reside with your x. This jerk is once again trying to get you off balance, focusing on something not yet an issue to distract and worry you. (classic S stradegy) IF you focus on this, you won’t have energy to focus on what knife he is REALLY stabbing you with!!!!Sounds like other issues at hand must be sifted thru, these lunatics are sneaky & bet on you being taken off guard.
My experience is that they really don’t want the children underfoot, unless they know it bothers you or benefits them in some way (pity plays, etc.)
My x N/P has 2 children from prior divorce.He admitted to me after divorce that he “used” his children to” get back” at his x wife thru getting them every weekend that was allowed. And why not? he had me to take care of them.
As prior post read, the ONLY persons who get respect from the S is those whom they fear. 100% TRUE. You can bet on it.
I know with older children, its harder on them to force some issues but,
The x wife, made my x- N/P walk the line on child visitations and it worked:
He was forced to send certified letters to request ANY summer visits, change of plans, etc. OR she would not allow. PERIOD.
No Concessions. If he missed a weekend, no swaps.
She was so tough on him, at the time, I didn’t understand WHY, BUT he knew he had to walk the line consistently by the divorce papers. She even had written in d. papers small details such as when he returned children, their clothes had to be washed, and every item returned. If this wasn’t done, he would receive a call as to why he didn’t.
I know that seems severe, but I swear it kept him respecting the rules. Also, less debating. At the very least, when the children were with us, they were well taken care of and had a great time. He knew if ANYTHING was amiss, DHR could be knocking on the door.
Good advice to ACT as tho he is doing YOU a favor by taking the kids. My x P used to say his x wife treated him like nothing more than a glorifed babysitter. Made him crazy that he had to go by the rules. Same w/ child support pymts. She would go to atty. IMMEDIATELY if he were ever late.
NO SLACK, NO COMPASSION. Sad you must do it this way, but your not dealing with a normal human- must never think you are. Compassion for these monsters are viewed by them AS WEAKNESSES in you. They will RUN ALL over you.
Lastly, Don’t underestimate their propensity toward violence & abuse toward you. Do not be alone with him. My x actually became so enraged on divorce issues with his x, he hit her IN FRONT of children. She learned the hard way how to protect herself. She always had someone with her during pick up times w/ children.
The good thing with you is that since your children are alittle older, you won’t have as many years to deal with him. Teenagers tend to be very vocal if they don’t feel they are being treated well (to say the least), which is in your favor.
Good luck and Peace to you. Please post and stick with this site for help and healing.
Thank You Matt,
You’ve really helped me here.
This is my problem:
The State of Virginia Requires me to provide my Superintendent of Public Schools with my kid’s annual standardized academic performance test scores each year by August 1st, and my letter of intent to home-school for the coming year by August 15th.
This is not onerous, so I’m happy to oblige.
The trouble is with my local Superintendent of Schools. His office loses, or more accurately states they’ve never received, documents I can easily prove they’ve received. They’ve actually made the error of claiming to have never received correspondence they’ve responded to in the past! I don’t think they’re dishonest, I think they’re disorganized. Trouble is, they’re also very arrogant, and prone to bluster and foolish posturing. I could end up in a legal battle with them over my right to home school, just because they’ve lost documentation I’m required to submit.
Legal defense is no big issue. I belong to HILDA, and they’d be more than happy to handle a case like this where the Superintendent of Schools is so clearly in the wrong. I feel differently. I have no desire to be part of any “landmark case”. The stress would make me a nervous wreck. I’d like to head the whole sorry mess off at the pass.
I always submit everything in one neat little package in July, ’cause paperwork is not my favorite pastime.
This year I’ll send it all Certified Mail, return receipt requested, retaining certified true copies of everything. If the certificate of mailing is legal proof, I’m done. The law requires me to give them the documents. If I can legally prove that I’ve fulfilled my obligation simply by mailing it to them via certified mail, return receipt requested, then I can relax after I’ve got it all in the mail with my certified true copies on file.
Errr… does “Under the Federal Rules of Evidence…” mean that a certificate of mailing is legal proof in State and Local Courts as well? I’m serious about heading trouble off at the pass.
Elizabeth:
State rules of evidence (in this case Virginia) are pretty much the same as the Federal rules.
A suggestion — having dealth with my share of bureaucracies — make your submission “unlosable”. What I do is get one of those cardboard velo-binders, in the most day glow color I can find and place each document behind a tab. For some reason, if it gets tossed into a pile, the harried clerks I deal with remember the color. Personally, I recommend hot pink, day-glo orange or puce.
Another thought. Since you’re dealing with the local superintendent’s office, have you tried walking it in personally and “charming” the clerk? For some reason this approach also seems to work.
Dear Matt,
I feel really self conscious about asking you a legal question but I’ve been so impressed with your deft handling of other queries, I thought I’d give it a shot.
I realize up front that you will not be able to answer it categorically given that each bar is different depending on the state. However, I wonder if you have any knowledge of how a bar might view the submission of a complaint with a request for compensation from the bar (our state makes $50k available) for an attorneys participation in a shake down Ãf the complaint is not filed for several years (well after the statute of limitations for the extortion itself). The attorney was not representing the perp or me but was acting as the bagman. I know that contacting someone represented by counsel in and of itself is an ethical breach, but I don’t have much of a feel for how bar associations handle these things.
Do you have any feel for how bars usually handle the commission of a felony by one of their attorneys? Or the participation in misdemeanors?
Sorry for the vagueness. However, I am well aware of the public nature of this forum. Thanks for any insights you might have.
Thank You Matt,
I’m going to take your advice with regard to the day glow cardboard velor-binder. That sounds like a winner.
The charm thing is what I used the first year I home schooled. It was counter productive. It didn’t keep them from losing my documents after I left. It also left me with less proof I had delivered those documents than I would have had if I had mailed it certified mail, return receipt requested. It was a major hassle. The building was a high rise downtown where I had to fight for parking, walk for blocks, then go through several checkpoints to get up to the correct floor. Then it took a while to track down the right person. It also gave them an opportunity to attempt to personally intimidate me out of homeschooling by telling me the law placed far more burdens on me than it actually does. (This works for them a lot. They’ve intimidated some people out of homeschooling by simply baffling them with BS.)
Any way, my charm gets a bit brittle when someone is feeding me a line of bull. I figure I’m better off keeping it brisk and impersonal. I don’t want a relationship with these people. They’re a scary combination of ignorant, disorganized and authoritarian. The less I see of them, the less likely I am to slip on a banana peel and accidentally kick their backsides up between their ears. (It’s a Black Belt thing nobody understands…) Heh-heh!
Seriously, I like me mellow. If sending that self-important herd of numb-nuts a day glo orange folder full of documents via ceritified mail, return receipt requested, certified true copies retained will help me strategically and legally, I’ll do it. Sucking up in person is too risky and time consuming.
sabrina:
Your post on how your S’s ex-wife dealt with him regarding his kids should be posted as a permanent posting on this site’s section about how to “co-parent with a sociopath.” It is dead on.
Holding a sociopath to the literal letter of a custody agreement is something I stress repeatedly to bloggers on this site who are caught up in custody wars. You cannot give them an inch. Any variation/accomodation/dispensation can and will be used against you.
A sociopath will blast you for being unreasonable. A sociopath will badmouth you to the world. A sociopath will try to manipulate you six ways to Sunday. You have let it roll off your back.
Your only power over a sociopath is what is written in black-and-white in that agreement. You cannot vary from that agreement, one iota. The minute a sociopath varies from it, you set a dangerous precedent from which you will not recover. Your only option is to turn them in to the authorities, drag them into court, do whatever you have to do.
Power. Pure, unadulterated power turned on them. It is the only thing they understand.
Leah:
Compensation from State bar restitution funds generally require you to submit proof of YOUR quantifiable loss due to the malsfeasance of an attorney. If you haven’t suffered a loss, I don’t see how you can claim against the fund.
Some state bar associations have hot-lines where you can report an attorney’s illegal actions and offer rewards for this. But, these are pretty rare.
If you have evidence of a crime, the place you report it is the District Attorney’s Office or the State Attorney General’s Office. Most generally have websites where they can tell you how to report a crime.
As for your State’s bar disciplinary committee, don’t bother.
The longer I stay in the law business, the more disenchanted I become with bar association disciplinary committees, medical association disciplinary committees, etc for the simple fact that I don’t believe the members of an organization can suitably police and discipline one of their own. There’s too much incentive to protect they own.
Oops Matt,
It seems my question has unleashed a flood. All I can say is that I’m grateful for your answer, and will be taking your advice.
There is a battle brewing between the Home School Advocacy Groups and the Superintendent of Schools. I plan to stay out of it. Virginia’s home school laws are totally appropriate in every respect. I like the status quo, and after the dust has settled I hope the law survives unchanged.
Elizabeth Conley:
The charm offensive works best if you’re in my shoes — having to deal with the clerk of court’s office on a more or less daily basis. Craven capitulation (on my part) made sure filings got made, etc. 🙂
Matt,
It is quantifiable and well beyond the mere $50k.
Thanks for the insights.