Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Endthepain:
I agree with Matt.
Go get the orders. It also shows him your not beckoning down. These need to be in place for the heath and safety of your child, and your sanity.
It’s a starting point for you. You be the boss.
You can be as flexible or not with them, once they are ordered. You don’t have to keep draggin him in for lack of payment….but at least you have the option if you need to.
Keep your legal options open….don’t screw yourself.
Yes….they usually fade away when money is involved and the pressure is on to ‘follow’ somebody elses ‘rules’ (the law) they just can’t be bothered. The ‘thing’ (child) is just not worth the hassle to them. As sad as it is!!!
may i ask your advice matt?
my ex is leaving me alone, well not to sure, i hear whistling outside my window at night. i thought i was nuts or maybe it was the neighbor but it would make sense if he were out there letting me know it by whistling but i just moved tuesday and i heard it last night? also my car key was missing out of my old home and my jewelry drawer broken into so i filed a report but because my house was for sale and i had an open house a few days prior they just think it was from that and disregard my ex. now my car milage seems to be too high so i started recording it and even after i moved i noted that the 2 days after i moved i drove 42 miles and the car said 78. i really hope he doesn’t already know where i am.
anyway i am so confused about how to handle my situation legally? he has admitted, but now denies, to murder (not just to me but others as well), a hit and run on purpose, he steals from me, has beat people up on the street and robbed them, conned me out of all i have saying “come on honey you know i love you. “you get the front 9 i’ll get the back 9″. so thinking we were together forever and he inherits at least 3 million when his dad dies i paid for everything. i loved him. however, on top of that he stole, tricked me out of money, even took my car and said it was stolen but i know he traded it for drugs.
i have lost all of my savings, sold my home, had to get bought out of my own businesses because my partners were afraid of him and over the drama( FBI contacted me about him in my home down down south), sexually exploited and abused, he changed documents on my computer and wrote disgusting things about me and even posted it on my-space, all lies, he slanders my name all over town playing tape recordings he did after setting me up and i was totally clueless, he has brought career criminals to my home after specifically telling him not to, and then tells them i am a narc and the reason (i hear the whistling now) that this guy is in prison (he just got 36 months in prison but i had nothing to do with it), he has bullied me by taking my phone, my car keys etc. and refusing to leave my home to the point that i locked myself in the bathroom so scared yelling for them (him and that guy totally uninvited) to leave, he has set me up to kill myself gotten me to withdraw what was left in my savings 10k taken the money and then denies it ever happened, he has exposed me to god knows what as i found out he has like 16 other women. he actually would pre-calculate and pretend to be the man i loved, gotten me into bed, undressed me and gotten right up to the moment and then jumped out of bed saying forgot i have to go somewhere” then goes to meet a girl in a motel and discards me for days or even weeks. his father has helped him get away with his crimes and hires big time attorneys to represent him because they live off of a huge trust fund, “old st. Louis” money. recently a guy who used to party with him called me and wanted some help so i agreed if he would tell me some truth, he agreed. he told me that my ex and him “double teamed” this girl who my ex calls consistently for several months just a month or so ago. so i asked the next obvious question was he also with men? he said “lets just put it this way many of us would be in a motel room together naked”. i insisted on a yes or no and he said yes. that guy is now dead. the coroner told me he was arrested and had a seizure in jail but i know my ex was involved. also this other guy that my ex always wanted me to help him by calling him over so he could beat him up and rob him (he blamed this poor guy and others for his drug problem and it makes no sense), of course i never did. well same time around 4/18/09 he went MIA. he was going to buy my gym equipment when i moved and i can’t get him on the phone which is really weird. i think my ex probably beat him up robbed him and threatened him to stay away from me “or else”. there is so much more. we were married 1998 and he left town 1999 and ignored me so i handled the divorce. he has never paid a dime for even his own expense. i don’t think he even pays taxes. i stayed away for 5 years then i got weak and the nightmare began. since last june he has been out right playing me, coning me, trying the murder by suicide thing, etc…
i have 1 legal note for 20k which doesn’t come close to covering my losses and i know it is meaningless. i use to want to sue the trust for millions as the damage done is priceless but now i just want to be safe and free.
i am afraid to file a restraining order unless i have a very tough attorney on my side and i do fear what photo’s, recordings, god knows what he has of me. he used to bring women, i had no idea, to my home when i was sleeping, so imagine? also i don’t want to trigger him to kill me. it would seem as though he is gone, he is in a recovery home again, for free, to avoid jail time as he was sentenced to 90 days for possession, and it is about 1 mile away form where i live. so while it seems like I’m safe and he is gone, i know he will return (same story year after year difference this time is i finally se the truth and don’t want him anymore but that could be dangerous) and he may even be the whistler i hear and taking my car as we speak.
what should i do? i live in so-cal. can you represent me or refer me or at least advise me how to proceed?
thank you so much i know this is a lot of reading. if there is anything i can do to re-pay you for your time out for me, i will without hesitation.
thanks again
matt
i did get a referral for a corporate litigator and apparently he has a good PI. i was going to call him yesterday but with the move i lost the #. just left my friend a message to get it again. just not sure what part or where to start though. i mean what do i want from the attorney? i know want something recorded in case something happens to me or in case he plans to attack me somehow legally. i am afraid of his reaction when he realizes i am really gone.
i need some clear cut advice and then i can follow and feel confident that i am doing the right thing for everyone.
thank you so much
I keep putting off the private ceremony for my daughters “funeral”.
Everytime i go to do it I think of a hundred things I have to urgently do. Then I feel this overwhelming sadness start to rise and I quickly squash it down as fast as I can and go do one of the “urgent” things. I know I am in the early stages of denial.
I know that the dull rusty butchers knife, with no pain killers and perform it on yourself is a euphemism because you forgot to mention that the exact saqme pain can come up and stay for months at a time for 10 years or so.
Which is precisely why I am having difficulty starting it. But I have started it here. And there is no-one else I can talk to about it but my fellow survivors here.
When I think of her now I cant help but think of her father at the same time. I think this is a good place for me to start.
I paint and I am going to do a painting of them together, to “get it out of me’. It will be one ugly sad painting I can tell you.
And I won’t keep it. Its the process that I’m after.
I remember when she was growing up, we stayed with the psychopath for the first eight years of her life. I was with him for 12 years. It wasn’t till after we got married that i found out he had done 12 years in prison for rape.
Anyway, up until she was eight, one of the psychopaths greatest pleasures was to pit her against me. The two of them.
He knew it would break my heart. I din’t realise at the time, I just thought she was a “daddy’s girl”.
Now that we are just over a week away from our mediation, my “S” has written me for the first time since I fled from him that “he never thought that he would say this, but he thinks about me all of the time and he misses me”. “He isn’t in any hurry to get a divorce and doesn’t want a mediation”. I was duped once, but give me a break, does he honestly think that I would fall for him again? He is afraid of what he might lose, that is all. I have good news about the home that is in foreclosure, the lawfirm representing the mortgage co. will work with me! They will stop the foreclosure if I bring the payments up to date.
Matt: I have a legal question for you, if you don’t mind.
Can my “S” be made to pay me for the back payments on the mortgage that he didn’t make? The mortgage is in his name and both of our names are on the deed. I made the twenty percent downpayment and invested other money in the property as well.
I would be interested in what you think on this. Thanks.
Matt and Erin…in the visitation…I would like to request supervised visitation as my son is only 3 and he has only known his father for 4 months as he has abandoned him twicw now..also he has rewcently stopped his divorce and gone back to his narcissist wife..can it be written in that there will be no contact with the wife as she is not balanced??? I am sooo afraid my son will be damaged further with any involvement
Dear Tilly,
I also paint. Maybe you could paint a picture of them both and then BURY the picture at your “memorial service.” I know it is difficult to do a memorial service even for a “real” dead person. the very thought of going to the funeral for my step dad or the memmorial service for my husband was terribly painful, but i did both. (they died 6 months apart)
Also, later, I went to a hospice memorial service and it was down in a park by the Arkansas River, and I had written a letter to both my husband and mys tep dad and when I went to the service, later I went down to the river and “mailed” those letters to them in the river. It was very comforting, actually. My egg donor who was there was standing beside me as I was weeping and putting the letters into the river, screaming “stop it stop it, you are littering!” LOL At the time I wanted to bitch slap her. LOL Now that I think about that day, I had asked her not to follow me down to the water that I wanted to “be alone” so she said “Okay, I’ll go with you.” LOL I had forgotten that. I remember now that I was p-o’d at the time.
awakening:
I think you need to get a restraining order. I would take what evidence you have — emails, voicemails making threats, copies of police reports, and take them to your local police department. Also, I would suggest you reach out to your local domestic violence organizations. They have representatitives who can advise ou how to proceed on this.
You need to get the restraining order as starting point to protect yourself. If he violates it, you have leverage to get him arrested. You have to make it too costly for him to come near you or your property.
Also, if you think he is stealing your car — put a security lock on the wheel, a stall device, a lojack, whatever you have to do. You may also want to consider having the ignition lock changed on the car. Also, I suggest a safe for in your house. I’d lock up jewelry, important papers, extra keys, whatever you need to. Even better if you have a safe deposit box in a bank.
Regarding trying to sue the trust — you can’t. There is a well-established case out there which involved one of the Duponts. He got loans and pledged his interest in the trust. When he defaulted, his creditors sued the trust. The court ruled that the beneficiaries of a trust can’t pledge their interests. It is virtually impossible for creditors to go after income from a trust or interests in a trust.
Before you start running the clock on PIs and lawyers, I think you need to seriously ask yourself if you are going to be out even more money trying to recover what he owes you. Oral promises to repay are also extremely difficult to prove. Documented loans, easier. Sit down and do the math before you get caught up in a battle where you suffer even more losses.
As for his alleged criminal activities, I would take his various admissions against self-interest to the police and let them investigate. If they occurred outside of their jurisdiction, they can contact the police in the district where these crimes occurred. The statute of limitations never runs on murder.
jfog1:
You could sue him for the payments. My concern for you is that you may be assuming his obligation by making these payments on his behalf. I understand that you want to forestall the foreclosure. The thing you don’t want to do is continue to pour your money into a house which he will then have the right to 50 percent of the profits when you go to sell — and he hasn’t put a dime in because you made the downpayment.
You may want to consider a court ordered “judicial partition” — ask the court to order the property sold. Or, if the judge hearing your divorce awards you the house, go out and get a new mortgage solely in your name. And since you put in the 20 percent, I’d ask the judge hearing your divorce to award you a greater interest in the property if he doesn’t award you all of the property, to take into account the fact that you paid the 20 percent downpayment and have been paying on his loan.
endthepain:
You can ask the court to impose the visitation conditions you are requesting. From where I am sitting both are reasonable.