Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
Dear Pesel,
I have a P-son, my biological sperm donor was a P, and my egg donor (mother) is a Psychopath-by-proxy toxic enabler of psychopaths, I am NC with her as well. I am also probably cutting myself out of an inheritence, at least she has tried to “buy” my cooperation with her money in the past. I am NOT for sale.
It was hard for me to go NC with her, because Ididn’t really realize how TOXIC she is, but now that I realized that the ONLY way I would get peace is to NC (no contact) with her I have come to PEACE AND JOY IN MY LIFE. She was quite abusive, really, and lied to me (I couldn’t believe that for the longest) etc. but Ii finally came to the conclusion I HAD to go NC with her. I am SO GLAD I DID. We also share a trustee ship in our family trust (land) so I have to have distant contact with her because of that, but generally handle it by e mail….recently had the only phone conversation I have had with her in months and months over something that required we talk and KEPT IT TO BUSINESS….did not respond to any personal information if she mentioned it…let there be silence until she got back to business….and for the first time in forever it did NOT upset me, so I realize I am “over the worst of the hump” emotionally with my dealings with her. I “frankly, Scarlett…..” It took me a long time to get to the “frankly, Scarlett…..” stage but I am there because I know how painful it can be to really give a damn.
Welcome to LF, and Ps are all the same no matter what their relationship is to us…it is all about love and fraud. Fake and lies. Smoke and mirrors.
Dear aroundthebend WOW your story is amazing….And I applaud you for always doing what your insticts told you to do.
As much as I would like to follow my insticts at all times often I find myself questioning them. Especially when I don’t feel any support in a situation and doors seem to keep closing rather than opening.
I am also dealing with a child and although the situation isn’t the same I would love to hear some of your advice. My son is 16 years old and was recently put on a medication (one month ago) and now refuses to take it. Long story short the medication was suppose to help his mood. He has had a partial evaluation and was said to have either depression or Bi Polar. ADHD and mood disorder.
Right before the medication was Rx, it was pretty much crisis mode here every day. His irritation had become aggressive and almost in a constant aggitated state. Or he was sleeping/avoiding.
I believed that the verbal abuse & aggresive behaviour was one step away from turning violent if I approached him as a parent to confront his behaviour. No boundaries were in effect anymore, house rules were not being followed, and he was flunking out in school. (going but not performing)
Before the “major” crisis state took place I was consistently trying to find a way to effectively parent him but nothing worked. My son lies about EVERYTHING. So nothing is his fault….
I would like to know how you “effectively” put boundaries into place with your daughter now, and how you DO react to the verbal abuse….
I would also like to know more about the PTSD that she has and the symtoms she has with this disorder. Because I have thought that this was something my son might possible suffer from but the therapist never “go there”.
Thanks so much for your time and sharing your story.
What worked for me was to understand and allowing my ex to get all her supply from her new soul mate and then cutting off any from my children and I. Like any drug addict the need is greater then logic. One thing is because both my children (both at an age to understand the need) and I wanted NC so much, that work great for us and still does today! Interesting but before we knew the concept of NC my oldest son suggested it. Him telling us if we stop talking with her maybe she would leave us be. Of course as long as she had a phone number it didn’t work. But once she went against our agreement and not give our phone number to anyone I could by all rights change the number and like I told her she would never get the new number again.
As for any paperwork. I would make copies if I had to give it to the person in question. If I wasn’t legally told too, I wouldn’t. If I learned anything is that if you give an inch they will take a mile.
Again I understand the most parents can’t go completely NC. But one doesn’t have to be a supply any longer as well. I was told whenever you “have” to talk with them, just do so with an unemotional unattached speech showing little or no emotional. If they can’t read you then you can’t tell what you are thinking or feeling. Back in the honeymoon stage they used this tactic on you all the time. They learned quickly what made you happy and what pissed you off, they knew your hot buttons better then you did so try to rewire them. Getting into any type of argument or disagreement is a waste of your time and energy so don’t.
“As prior post read, the ONLY persons who get respect from the S is those whom they fear. 100% TRUE. You can bet on it.”
“First of all, they feed off of fear.”
Both of these comments are very interesting….
I have heard this from a few people but one went on to say that they “confuse fear with love and respect”. If they fear someone they believe this person loves them and/or they love them. But they also confuse sex with love as well. Now I don’t know if this is true or not but in a lot of ways it makes sense. They “fear” their parents so therefore they respect and love (some do) them. Fear I know plays a very big part in their lives just to what extent I just don’t know as yet.
“*There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won’t brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they’ll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don’t know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they’ve feared die off, and there’s less and less outside influence to keep them in check”
*http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html
I believe this is partly true. They definitely respect those they fear but i don’t think that they think that they love them. Especially not their parents. If they can’t destroy those they fear ( and they usually have a good go at it first by devaluing) then they remain in fear and iether move away or have to respect them. Yes its definitely an advantage to know this.
Sorry, James:
I don’t think sociopaths are capable of love. They don’t understand or feel the concept.
Sex is used as a weapon, plain and simple. They either put out or withhold it — but, they don’t confuse it with love.
As for their parents, S would sing an opera about how his father terrorized him. However, I saw enough to know that S no only had no respect for his father, or family, he took them over the hurdles, the same as everyone else.
The only thing that ever got S’s attention was when I smacked back so hard, via the IRS, that he knows not to screw with me. So, yeah, he “respects” me. Big whoop.
I have to say reading these posts gives me such stregnth..thank you thank you…everything seemed so dark and as far as the PTSD..I suffered from that as well and am still working thru it…I think you are all right abour the inabilty for them to love..they cant grasp it all thry know is survibal and that is to use ..win..manipuate whatever and whomever and all costs. I let my ex know that I will NOT be reducing the child support and everything will go thru the court. I am not afraid anymore as he cant hurt me or my son with no contact.
Matt
“I don’t think sociopaths are capable of love.”
I agree 100% or as one Dr. put it. Their receipt of what love is, whatever that may be. No sociopaths can’t bond. As a father when I bonded with my children I knew how much I loved them. I have asked myself this question many times, did I bond with my children and then loved them or loved them first then I bonded with them or does it all happen at once? I am still not sure of this answer. Men can be thick as boards. 🙂
James:
My thought is that the emotion comes first, then the bond. I don’t think that one can bond unless they first feel.
My view comes from the opposite of love. I grew up in an incredibly abusive home — both physical and emotional. I never understood how my parents could have such a hold on me until I read “The Betrayal Bond.” Patrick Carnes, the author makes the point that a betrayal (trauma) bond can come on the heels of even a brief betrayal by the person whom you are supposed to trust.
I’ve got 3 cents on this one. I grew up with three sociopaths… all competing for the role of top nutjob. Then when a friend of my husband’s started dating one- I knew it immediately and stayed as far away from her as possible. She still did all she could- but I saw the signs. She hid my dh friend from us, isolated him, and then “got” pregnant somehow- after having abortions and telling people she never wanted kids, would rather spend her life on a tour bus with a band, and hustling people, using their own words. She admits this, and the dh’s friend says, “yeah, pretty funny!” It’s been three years, and he’s not singing “funny” anymore. he’s miserable.
But, he won’t admit he made a mistake, he’s got no friends allowed to tell him the truth- they get axed out of his life as soon as she hears about it. She’s squirreled away a lot of his money and even has a boyfriend. But, the guy won’t leave the situation because in his words, “I never broke up with anyone in my life- it’s their job to leave.” So they deserve each other, I guess.
My birth mother, sister, and foster brother all have P/S/N disorders. Birth mother manipulates sister in to believing the history of the world in her eyes. I moved out when I was 17 because I saw all of this, and was sick of hearing about how my brother was really MY kid… (uhm yeah, my teachers really hated my b-m for saying this and CPS was called..then she retracted it.) I was beaten every time I disagreed with B-m, and I have many scars physically. It took 11 years to get rid of much of the guilt for not being there for my brother, who is now the most abused person I know. Why? My sister and mother spend all of their time manipulating him out of his time, money, and oh yeah- he can’t possibly have any relationships without their approval- and no one is approved. He came to visit me, 3000 miles away ONE time- and his bank account disappeared so he had to return. Guess who was responsible? yeah. manipulative mom and her prodigy.
My foster brother- wow- he was the worst of them all. Even worse than b-m. He managed to not only manipulate houses, cars, and cash from people, but my foster mom’s doctor and I are convinced that his neglect of her was the key reason she’s dead right now. I don’t know how many car accidents he’s been in, but one of his hobbies is causing people to drive into walls, trees, etc. It’s insanity in its worst case, and he’s never been caught directly. His IQ is supposedly in the 80’s, so the cops think he’s too stupid to have done these things. But we know better.
The situation with my dh friend is really bad because they work together. I thought I had removed myself from all people of this nature. It’s been 20 years since I lived back home with bm, sis, fb. She managed to get a job with the company early on when she moved here- and she’s got everyone’s personal information, including social security at her disposal. She memorizes credit card numbers and addresses. One woman she decided was “watching” her husband ended up getting fired for “misappropriation of funds” at the company. It was later revealed that the person in charge of the paperwork was no one other than the p/s/n bride. But, the moment it was discovered, the boss quietly let her go. We later found out there are dozens of personnel records missing. Funny enough she has managed to buy cars, clothes, etc- with no job, and the friend claims he isn’t supporting her except giving her a roof.
A couple of years ago she tried playing me and my hubby against each other. It only made he and me closer because we saw it coming. But, another couple we know broke up because of her games. She is relentless. If she can get anything from anyone she’s there sucking out their lives until the bones are dry and she’s got another target. Dh’s friend just tolerates her, and is the only protection for their son, who is neglected by her completely. He isn’t even acknowledged. She just sneers at him and asks “friends” to watch him so she can go out with her boyfriend. We still don’t know why the friend keeps her around, but I’m sure she’s game playing him to the nth degree.
I skip any events she is part of. I don’t engage her in any conversation. If she happens to be in a room I am in, I make sure I’m by several people- even if she asks “How are you?” because that simple question gets turned into “how can I manipulate you.” I see her charm people- it’s so phony that even plastic surgeons are wondering if they can bottle the stuff. My dh misses his friend but sees what happens when anyone questions him about her. She views people as objects, and tools- in turn I treat her as furniture in the friend’s home and I would no sooner speak with her than I would the couch. Sad.
My guess is that something tragic will have to happen to the boy before the friend wakes up. So sad. So very pathetically sad.