Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
NoMore,
Detatch and listen to every word that comes out of his mouth. It will be a window to his soul, intentions and what he’s up to. Take nothing personally. Our self worth takes a beating. Detach, pay attention, take notes, protect yourself, research and educate yourself. If you question behaviors there is a reason….pay attention to yourself and your gut, you are on the right tract.
I felt hostage with my health. Bedridden, as he proposed to the world he was taking care of me…..not a bit. Yes, he fed me……but I had to take myself to treatments. I think it would have worked out good for him if I had died. he drained accounts as I was sick. Told stories in the community that I was mentally ill, of course no one could confirm his bazaar stories because I was locked up with cancer and people pull away when things get hard or weird. Don’t let yourself be emotionally vulneralble, even if you have physical limitations. I don’t know your situation, but do whatever it is you CAN do. Don’t ever react. Plan on the emotionally draining. Collect as much data through recon as you can. Keep everything, even if you think you won’t need it. Take pics of documents, photocopy everything, get yourself a digi recorder….document, document, document any chance you get. You will have to decided at a point if it will continue to be worth staying…he will up the ante when he feels the need. They are ever changing, so don’t get comfortable. They do not think like ‘normal’ people (you). Plan for a divorce, if you decide not too….no harm done. Put your car title and registration in your name only, find out about accounts, passwords etc….get copies of at least one statement from each accounts, get a back up of his computer info. Open a P.O box and have some cash on hand to pay for things he needn’t know about. Keep your passport and titles in your possession. Get a safe, or have a good friend store things for you. Get a CC in your name only and start building your own credit. Make sure the CC’s he uses are not in your primary name, you will be left with the debt. Take what you want…..posession is 9/10th of the law, it’s much easier to take it and give it up than to spend 1000’s on an attorney to maybe get whatever he is holding hostage that you would like. Take your time, but have a plan. Take charge and gain control of YOUR own life and future, trust me…..no one will do it for you and no one will care about your situation. Protect yourself and your kids. Your on the right path.
Good luck to you.
Dear No More,
Part of the difficulty in a “no fault” state is just that….usually the no-fault states are also 50/50 splits….so anything even in his name or your name is half the others as long as you are married and acquired that asset during the marriage.
Finding those assets is the problem if one party will LIE—and we know your H will lie. So he may be converting assets into easily concealable cash, even as we speak…..
He IS STRINGING YOU ALONG FOR HIS BENEFIT…..my WAG (wild assed guess) is that he is trying to buy time to get his ducks in a row to leav e you high, dry and penniless in the end.
You can TRULY believe one thing, IT IS NOT TO YOUR BENEFIT TO WAIT. Whatever HE WANTS is for HIS benefit.
Oh, and one other thing you can TRULY believe, EVERY WORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH IS A LIE.
NoMore:
Time is your enemy when it comes to these subhuman creatures.
My WAG (love that, OxDrover) is that he is going to get busy (if he isn’t already) draining accounts and stripping the business of assets. I’d lay money on him haing set up a “shell corporation” which is is going to start transferring assets into.
This could become a big problem if you have a formal separation agreement in place, since the date of the separation agreement is the date that is generally used for fixing assets and debts. Since he’s got control of the corporation, he can right the checks, sign over titles, whatever.
Your lawyer can subpoena the corporate records from the accountant and attorney.
You have got to take action to protect yourself here. Get going and get your lawyer going.
Dear Witsend,
I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through such tough times with your son- it’s one of the most awful, powerless places to be on earth.
As for PTSD, it comes with a whole array of symptoms, among which the inability to self-regulate tough emotions (especially anger/sadness) seems to be one of the hardest to deal with. This must be really hard with boys, as they tend to feel they have to stuff their feelings, so lashing out seems to be the manner in which that energy is expended. I’m not sure if these things below will help you, but this is what tends to work so far (I say this very humbly, because it has been a slow motion basis), for us. The thing I try to keep in mind when trying to ascertain if something is working with my child is: if the tactic we choose to make lead to a spiral of change, (even if the changes seem slight) as opposed to a never-ending, repeating cycle of violence that never changes, then that technique may actually be working. If the cycle repeats without change, then that tactic to try to change the child’s behavior isn’t an effective one.
1. We maintain a rock-solid, daily communicating, united front as a parenting couple in terms of establishing rules of disengaging from every single behavior we will not live with (ie threats, swearing, denigrating us, violence toward us or the self). We insist on maintaining a normal, loving, peaceful household in which we also seek times to be alone as a couple; however, when daughter is in a “funky mode,” (we call it this because we want to always consciously separate the child from the bad behaviors we don’t accept in our home), we disengage from her abuse immediately and entirely, and tell her so, ahead of time. Kids with PTSD are sometimes filled with shame; often the abusers demean them so much, that they really think they are “all bad,” which is why they think that going on and on with the violent behavior is what they “deserve” to receive as well as to dish out, to anyone around them. In addition, a child raised in violence doesn’t have an accurate gauge on knowing the difference between personal responsibility, guilt, and shame; repeated cycles of violence keep people feeling stuck in “having to accept” shame, without having the grace of examining objectively the negative consequences to their healthy relationships. Sometimes, kids don’t even know what a healthy relationship is, even when we show them that, every day! Eventually, if this discernment is not recognized or understood, with guidance from non-abusive people, the kids (and people with PTSD) can get stuck in the cycle of shame, and then eventually sever all connection with their consciences; this is what I feel leads to sociopathy, and at that point, the abusive behaviors become intractable.
At times, my daughter has said that in the past, her father would call the police on her frequently, which added to the drama affect, so no matter what, we have avoided doing that, because in her case, it has just given her in the past a feeling of power through drama. In many ways, our kids tend also to “split,” either acting very affectionate, seeing us as perfect, and needing our love/attention constantly, or acting almost a totally different person, one that lashes out, displays meanness and cruelty, a psychopath in training! My daughter has gone so far to say that she has no idea who she is, that she sometimes feels empty- this is often one of the hallmarks of BPD, but we strongly believe that if she is guided and loved mindfully, with careful discernment of what is going on with her every time she lashes out, that eventually she will freely choose which person she really is. I believe and have faith that if we support and encourage (using the Gottman Ratio) all the good parts in her, she will no longer need the bad acting parts to “survive.”
(Do you have a supportive partner now? If so, a united front is very helpful; if not, perhaps asking a good friend to act in the role of supporting partner when your son is in a funk might help; if not, then perhaps a Big Brother program might provide some relief?) You need to have someone support you, so that you have energy left inside of you to support your son.
Time is of the essence, because these adolescent crises, in the wake of abuse, seem to be crucial forms of crying out for help; these cries (even as rages) also can lead to an adolescent either choosing to becoming a decent, upright adult, or a person that chooses to remain wounded, and therefore, a conscious-less person who is both entitled and narcissistic, yet at the same time, wounded, stuck in bad memories, and one who will perpetrate over and over again on others, as an adult. The jury is still out yet for my daughter, (and we know and accept the possibility of a bad outcome), but I do know and can see in my daughter that the brain is still forming these high level coping aspects until the mid-20s, and that even beyond then, neuroplasticity can help people lead themselves out of these horrible behaviors, but this requires special qualities of determination in the tormented individual.
2. As a mom who escaped abuse, then lost a child for almost 6 years because of it, I had to figure out, and eliminate all the ways I was responding to my daughter’s abuse of me in a traumatized state myself, so that I could stop enabling the situation, and really start to help her. (She had to get to know me again, too, as the person she’d never known yet in her lifetime, the mother as a person who hadn’t yet been affected by abuse). For example, the minute she came back, she suddenly started raging at me, saying all the same things to me the ex used to; it was then I’d start to shut down inside, and I’d want to run away as fast and as far as I could from my own family! After all, I’d been the one to leave the abuse, start my own life, and achieve freedom; there was no way that I’d accept that kind of behavior again from anyone! This is where my new partner came in, because he is great at remaining objective, non-judgmental and in mirroring; he’d learned about my PTSD over time, and so he is always able to remind me when I start to speak negatively about myself, feel hopeless, curl up in a ball and want to give up, or start defending myself or protecting us all from my own daughter’s illogical abuse. When he helped me realized that I, TOO, WAS STILL VULNERABLE TO REACTING TO THINGS IN A TRAUMA STATE, I realized that I was trying to self-protect during an especially bad night in which we almost called the police when my daughter was purposefully stirring the pot, trying to destroy the sacredness of our healing home; a turning point then occurred in me. The solution: I chose to stop listening to, and taking to heart, all her insults. I stopped seeing my daughter’s return to me as the ex’s way of continuing to torture me. I stopped empowering her to validate the lies he’d filled her with about me. My new husband’s role was crucial: to support and to keep me on track by reminding me when I was in a trauma state, and my job was to help my daughter learn about her own trauma, even as I didn’t at first buy into the idea that my daughter’s abusive behaviors were coming from trauma, because my own trauma didn’t express itself in that way. (It makes sense, however, because her whole life has been a reflection of the violence her father dished out; I had a life before the ex in which that kind of violence did not exist). Separating the child from the behaviors is so important; as mothers we know our children’s good qualities best, and we need to encourage, in spades, the good aspects they have to share.
3. (This one is HARD): I had to accept that my own child was someone that I also had hurt, simply by being naïve, and by getting entangled in a situation with a sociopath, years ago; by having a child with someone I didn’t even yet know was a sociopath, I had inadvertently hurt her, by enabling her to suffer from abuse, for her whole life. I had to understand that this child doesn’t see her two parents as unequal, and that she loves this same father that hurt her and me; somewhere deep inside her she wants me to take responsibility for giving birth, and therefore, ruining her very existence. I tell her that we all have difficult upbringings, and that we are each responsible for our own response to whatever things we must transcend, not alone, but with support of lots of good people. I also commiserate with her, hug her a lot, and tell her I’m sorry that the situation I was naïve about caused her such pain. I also tell her that her perspective is different from mine, and that we must both respect each other’s lenses, and to not to talk about things that might tread on traumatic memories until we are both ready. What was so hard about this was that I want my daughter to see my truth as much as she wants me to see hers; this doesn’t happen automatically- it takes time and work and many years of letting go and learning about the deepest aspects of ourselves and each other.
2. My husband and I have made it open and clear that every time we disengaged from her abusive behavior, we would pick a time to reconnect (like a time-out- no longer than 15 minutes) and then we all agreed to come back and try to approach the problem again, but with calm, love, and mutuality. Sometimes it took several hours or even days, for this to work, but we would not relent on this rule of disengaging, and reengaging. With PTSD, a flashback or memory tends to trigger kids into suddenly going back into the abuse, as if they are stuck in a timeless state of the situation. Triggers can be very unpredictable, and so we as parents can innocently mention something, or simply remind the child through a gesture, of terrible incidents in the past, in which they felt like trapped animals. When the kids rage and threaten, it’s often a combination of a power-over game, but the intent of the power over-game is trying to protect them from feeling imperiled from an invisible foe; all the while they are raging, they’re stuck sometimes in these really awful bad memories. Helping them recognize that they don’t need the abusive self-protecting behaviors in a non-abusive situation, while asking about what they are really feeling inside (and remembering), while talking to them about how the trauma is a response, not a cause of abuse, and that it changes brain chemistry, and that they have the power to channel their energies into giving of themselves (this is a powerful healing tool for PTSD). Dialectical Behavior Training is also helpful; it is a program developed specifically to help people self-regulate. There are many books out there, one of which is a DBT workbook that was very helpful for us.
3. A good system of therapy, both for my daughter and us, was also key. We use a family systems therapy group, which for us has been really great, because it is much different than traditional, analysis based approaches. (Be aware that there are some people for whom this does not resonate). Family systems therapy is based on unraveling the complexity between and among relationships and people, and finding logical solutions to the problems that emerge from the complexity. At one point, we were told, point-blank, that if my daughter did not turn around, that if she lived with us, this would destroy our family, our home and our lives. In some couples, this could break up a whole system, but I (luckily) understood the logic in it. If I cannot provide a soft place to fall for my child, and for me, then what is the logic of inviting the abuse into my life again, even if it is my own flesh and blood doing it to us? I decided to tell my daughter that she could not live with us if she was abusive, but that she could if she stopped. This is when she decided to admit herself, newly 18, into a hospital, to get help. She knew it was her last chance, and she chose to seize it on her own!
4. Here was the most important key for us, which allowed us to get to start doing the above things: the meds. While my daughter was in hospital, I researched the latest NIMH studies, particularly on symptoms of PTSD and BPD. I found the drug Risperdal, which, though used for schizophrenia, has been shown in the newest studies to significantly help these kids who experience rages. (Please note that the drug comes with long-term side effects that can become serious over time, so we’re trying it as a temporary help until some of the DBT work kicks in; we have no idea what will happen when she stops taking it yet!) I learned that the prefrontal cortex in the brain is responsible for our being able to self-regulate emotions; in kids with PTSD, (and this is worse if they use drugs), this part of the brain is negatively affected, as well as the amygdala, and the hippocampus (areas in which stress tends to shrink things). At first, the doc gave her neurontin, which I researched, and found that it tended to be absolutely useless for most people. However, as she was not improving in hospital, and as she was threatening to go to a shelter after release, I suggested Risperdal, and the changes were noticeable after about two weeks. Now, she can nearly almost always stop the rages before they get out of hand, and she has also started to reveal the true causes of her rages: years of traumatic memories. Slowly, she is bringing these out, and realizing that she is safe to share her feelings with us. She also has severe social anxiety, which led her nearly to quit school in her senior year. We worked out a deal with the school to allow her to stay home, and to take courses online. This has made an amazing difference, along with the time she needs to heal. With PTSD there is a connection to severe insomnia. Both my daughter and I have this problem, and so we both take melatonin at night, and I let her sleep as long as her body needs to in the morning, so that her brain can perhaps heal itself in some ways. (People with strokes and other brain damage seem to need a lot more sleep than most people, and I feel intuitively that this is true with PTSD, because I found it to be hugely helpful in my slow recovery from PTSD.)
Anyway, that’s the long of the short of that, and I thank everyone on this site for your ideas and support, too! Good luck to you, Witsend; it so helps to know we are not alone, even as some days can be really horrendous. Hang in there!
Sincerely,
Diana
oriablue.com
Thank-you Henry, Erin, Ox-Drover and Matt! I really appreciate your comments!
I’ve taken something away from each post and am mulling over the things you’ve said. I actually feel renewed confidence to go on and act for my best interests. I can only do what I can do, but I must do as much as I can. It will be such a relief when these days are over (divorce process).
This thread is a great one and you guys all have so much wisdom. I don’t have time to say any particulars at the moment but just wanted to get a quick thank you to you all. It does my heart good to be able to discuss this with someone.
aroundthebend…long/short but worth the “read”. Hope it helps witsend…and best outcomes for you, your husband, and daughter. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
Donna,
Great series on dealing with character disturbed people;
http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/04/22/staying-focused/
Around the bend:
Diana,
Thank you so much for your extraordinary post. You have been through much, and it appears that you are truly making it around the bend, with wisdom to share.
Aroundthebend…
Wow, I am almost unable to express how grateful I am that you gave me so much valuable information. Thank You.
I don’t know where to begin…I DON’T have a partner. My sons father is dead (suicide). And that was the trama in my sons life and my own for that matter. My son was really just a baby (not yet 4) when it happened and he was alone in the house with his dad until I returned from work. When I arrived my son led me to his father. He kept tugging at my hand telling me “mommy daddy is sick” repeatedly.
It was by far the most “sureal” moment of my life. And I felt like my brain short circuited. The room seemed to spin. I had what I can only explain as out of body experience when I dialed 911….The phone was in my hand BUT I didn’t feel like I had made the call. I felt like split in two. Neither one of “me” felt human or “real”. Seemed to feel like I was floating above without a body & looking at my OWN body down below? Sounds crazy I know…Maybe that is what happens when you go into shock and you can’t DEAL with what is in front of you. It lasted I’m sure for only minutes, (but seemed long) and my sons voice brought me back. When I came “back” I knew that the 911 call had been made but I still didn’t feel like I HAD made the call.
Because of this experience and how I initially reacted to this tragedy I could only imagine what my son went through as he had been there for many hours alone with his dead father.
I couldn’t explain what had happened intelligently (the out of body experience) to anyone. BUT Because it DID happen to me, I knew that it was real & that we can only “handle” so much. This is how my brain/body reacted to it, what about my son? I started to really worry about what my son actually saw. (did he see it happen?) And did he “go away” such as I did? And if he did, was he able to “come back” as I did? He was supposed to see a childs therapist (arranged by the police). It was concluded that he did not see it happen but woke up to it. Concluded by estimated time of death and also by what he said to the doctor.
Several years after I had panic attacks. This was after years of healing, therapy and coming to the “other” side of the suicide. I finally felt pretty good. And then these panic attacks came out of nowhere. My doctor said that I had PTS. I don’t remember having any “symtoms” with the PTS other than the full blown panic attacks. This is why I asked you what some of your daughters symtoms were….So there again, I had concern as my son grew, how would this affect him?
As the years went by my son was given “age” appropiate information about his dad. Naturally when it happened he was to young to understand death let alone suicide. I followed doctors instructions and my own common sense what to tell him, and at what age.
Suicide is a very difficult death to grieve, leaves many unanswered questions and the survivor has the feeling that they were “ultimately rejected”. As I myself went through the process I came to understand how important it was for him to be able to understand that his fathers death had nothing to do with him not loving him. I didn’t want him to feel that “ultimate rejection” such as I did. I tried to openly talk about his dad and ask him his feelings over the years…..
As he got older he always said that he really didn’t remember his dad and so for him, he didn’t really know what he was “missing” not having one.
Up until he was 15 years old he seemed like any other “average” kid his age.
At this age I saw some disturbing personality traits. And at the same time he started doing poorly in school. Since then it has been a downward spiral. He is 16, flunking his sophmore year. And doesn’t care. He is just NOT doing the work. He is more than capable.
Even more importantly his troubling personality traits and behaviour has escalated. Consistant lying, MAJOR lack of reality, grandious ideas & thinking, passing blame, anger, and major irritability, all of this pretty much came out and escalated out of control in a short period of time. Several weeks ago he also showed signs of depression and was put on medication. For moods.
That brings us to the here and now. My son only took the medication for a month and now refuses to take it. Says he doesn’t NEED it. He was on a very low dosage but there were small signs of improvement! Definately took the edge off of his irritability. We actually “could” talk sometimes 🙂 And now that he has been off for awile he seems to be going right back, I am unable to communicate with him…
My problem has been that whatever mistakes I made early on, such as the consequences (being grounded or loosing computer privledges etc) that he recieved when he decided to stop functioning at school or lied to me constantly about everything and anything…These “consequences” for his behaviour never worked with him. Just made him VERY angry. He seems to dwell in that anger.
We also had positive reinforcement and positive “consequences” for his grades or behaviour. That didn’t work either.
He seems to not AT ALL connect his words to his actions. In other words as I see it, he expects me to believe what he SAYS and not what he DOES. The lack of “reality” thing I try to explain (and people don’t understand). In his “world” it APPEARS that he thinks what he SAYS IS “reality” and what he DOES is NO PART of reality.
I think you are right about the fact that I need some support. As things progressed quickly I have felt more alone than I ever have in my life…
He has been going to a counscelor for about 6 months. He has also spiraled downhill in the last 6 months. He lies to him all the time. I had hoped that the cousceling would be helpful in implimenting a plan of what might WORK with my son. Effective parenting “plan”, rather than parenting with no positive effect.
For a short period of time I actually saw LIGHT at the end of the tunnel when he was taking the medication. Things didn’t improve a whole lot BUT there was enough improvement to have hope….and move forward.
Right before the medication when things got really OUT OF CONTROL I had little to no hope. It was at that time that my son was really showing anger and undermining everything that I said and he was verbaly abusive. And I felt like at any moment the verbal could turn into physical. He just seemed like a time bomb. We seem to be approaching that stage again.
I do have some experience with seperating the disorder/sickness with the person. His dad was alcoholic and this is something taught at alon meetings. To seperate, to not take things personal. I have tried this without alot of sucess but can maybe focus on this more…..And to a degree I have accepted that I have hurt my son….I can’t even imagine how a child not yet 4 years old “coped” for so many hours with his father not taking care of his “needs” and me NOT being there either to do the same. He might have some major issues with all of this…..But whatever issues he has they must be deep down because he refuses to even acknoledge that any problem exist. (with him anyways) the rest of us all have problems. Me, his teachers, even the psyciatrist who evaluated him. His perspective, is that he is fine.
The biggest obsticle that I believe that is against me though is that my son is UNWILLING to take his medication, he is not willing to admit he is depressed, and he definatly has the attitude that he DOES NOT have a problem, everyone else does. The mental health issue for me seems more and more like the school issue was a year and a half ago… you can take the horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
That was my original problem with him when he decided to shut down at school. I could get him there but he will not be “productive” while he’s there .
witsend:
I had lunch today with a friend who is a single parent, like you. She mentioned “Parents Without Partners” has been a great source of support for her. After she mentioned it, I thought of you.