It could be argued that the sociopath is cynical: contemptuous; mocking; concerned only with his own interests and typically disregarding accepted or appropriate standards in order to achieve them – the opposite of idealistic.
And there is a danger that one who has learned the hard way about sociopaths becomes jaded: dulled, blunted, deadened, inured; tired, weary, wearied; unmoved, blas̩, apathetic Рthe opposite of fresh.
The online version of the Guardian newspaper runs a series in which readers provide their responses to ‘Ethical conundrums’. Given the nature of our interests on this blog, this one caught my eye: Is it worse to be cynical or jaded?
One reader’s response captures the issue I raise above (our key terms inserted):
A jaded person [someone who has fallen for a sociopath] has loved and lost. A cynic [sociopath] has never loved at all.
Another provides some clues as to how come the sociopath and his or her victim get together in the first place:
I don’t like either alone, together though: the jaded person before becoming jaded makes friends with a cynic and then they both have a great time. So long as the cynic enjoys the doses of optimism and doesn’t get annoyed by them. And the optimist doesn’t become disillusioned by hanging out with the cynic. Because that would be boring, pointless and gloomy. Cynics and optimists together can be really proactive and make great company: CAN be…
Or not, right?
One reckons that positivity can turn into negativity, but seldom the other way round:
Pessimists tend to become cynical, as they tend to believe the existence of a hidden motive. Optimists, with experience, tend to become jaded, as the world falls short of their expectations. Jaded people tend to become cynical, but cynical people rarely end up jaded. So, being jaded is kind of the scenic route to cynicism.
One reader sees the merit of cynicism:
Cynicism is essential for surviving this lousy superficial society. Being jaded is the result of being insufficiently cynical.
I was tickled by this one:
Someone who’s jaded hasn’t lost the will to change, they’ve just lost the means….Polish the surface of a jaded person and you’ll find they’ll come up good as new.
As we get a new year underway, what are your thoughts?
My experience has not been positive as far as my attitude is concerned. Maybe time will change that but I doubt it.
If I were to describe myself prior to my experience with my last psychopath, I would tell you I was a sweet, patient, caring and probably overly-tolerant woman. Optimistic, too. While, I was not an overly religious person, I did believe in God and felt “close” to the spiritual world. I know that if I had met someone who had the same values as me, we would have had a happy union, and perhaps even a beautiful one.
My experience with my money-hungry, pedophilic psychopath has left me deeply, probably permanently wounded. Now I have difficulty accepting that God even exists. (After all, if he existed, wouldn’t he have heard – and answered – my prayers asking whether or not this was a person I should be involved with? I didn’t ignore God. He ignored me.)
All those things I was before I met my second psycopath have changed. And it’s not because I feel bitter. I simply can trust no one.
I am “jaded” and “suspicious” and much more self-centered than I have ever been. I have to be because I’m raising three vulnerable, abused children who are not adequately supported by their sperm donors (fathers).
I don’t give a rat’s ass anymore about my sociopath’s “feelings” or desires or wants or needs (do I really need to justify why?) But, worse than that, I don’t give a rat’s ass about anybody else’s needs because, to me, everybody is probably a sociopath. I have no reason to think differently.
Whether sociopaths are “deprived of good” or downright “evil” means little to me now. At the end of the day, the result is the same: damage in copious amounts. I do NOT want to be a victim again and I do not want my children to continue to be victims, either.
I can’t help but mourn for the person I once was. I liked who I was and it saddens me that it was all wasted on such an unworthy “person.”
And while I don’t particularly dislike the person I’ve become, I certainly am not unhappy about the thought that the bad health habits I’ve deliberately picked up since my psychopath left me for greener pastures will have me kicking up daisies within twenty years instead of forty. I’m not unhappy about that at all.
Jofary: Gosh, it sounds like a nightmare. It’s bad enough to go through that emotional wrangle for a couple of years – I cannot imagine how you must feel with children involved. I’m sorry you had to go through all that.
I think we all get different things out of this forum at our various stages of suffering and recovery. The only reason I want to know about ‘evil’ and the sociopath’s needs (well motivations really) is in order to understand it all. I’m getting to the end of that stage now I think, but I doubt I’d be this well now if I hadn’t seen actual sociopaths discuss what it is that they want. While I didn’t realise this, I was always going to be vulnerable for the next sociopath (or even the return of the last one).
gillian – To pick up on just one thing you raise: “The sentimental cards. The tender voice, the soft eyes. The sweetness, the seduction.” I am interested in the ‘soft psychopath’, the gentle one. I’m intending to write a post about it soon.
ennlondon – ‘Mind-bending’ is right!
jofary and ennlondon – I agree that ‘stages’ is the appropriate word. Questions of the ins-and-outs of the minds of the psychopath and his victim are simply not relevant when is at a stage which is more about recovering and establishing a life of normality again.
Jofary
I, too, was what some considered very laid back and maybe sweet and naive. I trusted God implicitly to direct my path and surely thought the one I met and eventually married had to be of God. I’m seeing now that I probably ran ahead of God, but He brought something so good out of that miserable marriage and that’s my daughters and a better understanding of myself.
I’ve felt like a failure because I wanted this “perfect” kind of life involving my marriage and family to present back to God. I’ve since learned that I know God knew what I was going to have to endure, He also knew I wouldn’t give up on Him. I never stopped praying for truth, until after 31 years of marriage, truth finally came out. It was at that time I met a man who wanted us to be friends, but he saw the brokenness of my life and heart and used that for his gain.
Now that I’m on the other side, I can see what I missed but had the gut instinct to know something wasn’t right. After reading these accounts, I can see a pattern with so many out here who aren’t in the least real. But I’ve learned about my weaknesses and have been able to strengthen them. I’ve realized, too, that God never left me. It was me backing away from Him seeking love not knowing that love is a choice and if a man chooses to use me, he doesn’t love me. And in my intense hurt, through my marriage and this “friend”, I sought God even more for comfort. I’ve thought, with all the horrors going on in the world, I survived and the ones who didn’t care and tried to break my spirit, only showed me just how strong my faith is in God.
I’ve learned to understand my own body and desires even more. I’ve learned to be more guarded and to not spill my guts to just anyone. I shudder to think how I almost got in deeper with this friend who had so many ulterior motives. His words and actions didn’t mesh and as I’ve looked behind the scenes, I’ve had a picture painted of him, that makes me so thankful for insight. I like to think that God was walking behind me, like I did when my children learned to walk and ride a bicycle, etc., just waiting to pick me up. He could see what was going to happen, and He let me get my feet wet, but He didn’t totally let go. It was a major struggle, but something kept holding me back from making any kind of commitment to this man. I’m so glad.
I never knew that a fellow human being could be so loving, caring, seductive, yet turn so cold and calculating, but he was that way all along. He was softening me for the final kill. I believe that he was using the skills he used on all his other women to lure me in, then I’d end up paying his bills and taking care of his needs, while he was out getting his jollies elsewhere. I would be like his mother and he’d be out playing. He’s too much in love with himself for anyone else to love him. Way too much maintenance.
I keep reading these blogs and see bits and pieces of my life. These guys use the same worn out, tired lines, that have no backing. They are actors on the big screen. I told my friend that he forgot to hold up my cue cards because I missed my line. The ones I was involved with were like chameleons and could adapt to whatever situation they were in. Talking with them had so many pauses that I knew they were searching their minds for some comment. You ask a question and there was this pronounced pause, and you knew you were going to get another lie. I got so sick of trying to analyze the conversations and wondering what I should believe or not. I’m so glad I was spared marrying him.
But through it all, God never left. He just allowed me safety to test the spirits and to find out for myself that this man stinketh! I feel so much more enlightened than before. I wondered when I met this man, in the aftermath of my marriage, if he was my test or reward. He definitely was a test. I think Satan was waiting for me to take the bait from this man, but something (God) held me back from completely stepping into the quagmire of his life. I would have been forever miserable. I don’t keep secrets and his whole life is just one secret after another. I’ve honed my people skills trying to stay one step ahead of him. So all wasn’t bad. I’ve gone through all the stages of resentment, sadness, bitterness, etc. I must admit I’m not as jaded and cynical as before, but I’m very cautious. I have a definite attitude only when confronted with a lot of the same garbage this man and my husband exuded.
I’ve learned to never allow someone free rein with my emotions and it’s okay to tell them no way. I wasn’t created to satisfy a man’s lust just because he throws a few words of flattery my way. So all hasn’t been lost. The one who lost, even though he doesn’t realize it, is this man who has all the criteria that goes with sociopath. He’s the one who keeps burning bridges. He has this sense of entitlement and it’s like he commands preferential treatment. I was so blinded by his demeanor at first and now all I see is an aging Lothario who thinks he still has it. I actually feel sorry for him now, not in the usual way. Actually it’s a kind of embarrassment that he doesn’t see what others see and really thinks he’s special. Like he’s the originator of everything. He even one time, when I questioned something he did or said, held out his hands, and said, ” See the nail prints in my hands.” Like he was referring to himself as Christ and I was the doubting Thomas. That kind of freaked me out. I kept wondering what was going on in his head. I could never follow his thinking. I think he might have been into alcohol and drugs and that in itself messes the brain, and along with his other personality disorders, sure makes for a confusing relationship.
But I say all that, to say, Jofary, please don’t give up on God. He’s still there. With all the happenings in this life and the evils present, it’s harder to stay focused. Sometimes I apologize to God for my relationship problems, when there are babies being aborted faster than they are being born, killings of precious innocents, beatings, serial killers and rapists, etc. Much more serious than what I endured. Not to diminish the pain of these relationships, because my heart suffered, but it was God who walked me through all the pain, and He supplied the relief I needed. He is still there, just waiting and watching, for our return.
Stages, exactly EnnLondon, the grieving process, but I can’t recall if that has ever been discussed here before. And I should have added that I’ve been on here since last March, so this has taken me quite awhile. By now I’ve stopped reading most of the personal stories, because I’ve gotten the picture and they’re all similar and difficult to read, differing levels of pain, humiliation, and suffering. But no insensitivity was intended, Jofary. Imagine if you can, my arm and others’ around your shoulder. I am no theologian either, no born again Christian, and no bible thumper. I am only who I am, a simple believer, have been for as long as I can remember as my grandparents’ Midwestern farm was next door to the parsonage in a rural setting of a German farming community, and I’m a member of a church. But my faith is more about a personal relationship, deeper now, than being just about religion.
This forum is not the place for theological debate, but is just as EnnLondon described, a forum where we can each take what we need and learn what we will, not from a seat of judgment but from one of understanding. I appreciate everyone’s candid responses, everyone has their own personal approach, and we’re all here for the same things, healing, understanding and knowledge.
And I’ll certainly not disagree with EnnLondon about sociopaths often times ending up in prominent church positions, but what better backdrop of power to perform from. That was the distinguishing characteristic that immediately connected this man to me, a tie that makes all believers members of the same extended family.
His faith was different from mine, but he’d stated he had held a position in his former church’s hierarchy and he quoted scripture almost at will, not just a couple verses memorized, he knew the Word and better than I. I thought he was the fruit of my prayer, and in the beginning I thought he was the epitome of faith; kind, gentle, understanding, giving, loving and I thought our values and goals were in perfect harmony. He was down, but fighting to come back, a theme that plays well within my persona. As unbelievable as it now seems, I remember telling him that I didn’t understand how any woman could walk away from his loving kindness after he’d explained away a horrible divorce a few years prior.
Red flags, I saw many of them but thought I’d already earned my screen name Benzthere long before I met him. I am not a naive youngster unschooled in the ways of the world. In the first six months, he asked me to marry him, another red flag. I saw something abnormal going on, but relegated it first to loneliness then to having some dependency issues. I never connected his behavior to sociopathy and didn’t even read about it until later. After about six months, I pushed him back but didn’t slam the door. But my mantra from that time on was through the front door of honesty first, and once you’ve been on your knees in front of Him, only then come back to me. At that time, evil did not dress well, speak well, or have similar goals to mine. Fast forward two years, some boundaries I kept, I have never been one that doesn’t face issues or allow someone else not to, but some I didn’t keep. My desire for autonomy in a relationship only played right into his plan. And tenacity can be a double edged sword. I didn’t realize then that I was fighting for the soul of someone without a heart, without the capacity to give or receive love.
The discussion of good and evil makes for wonderful investigation. My own perspective of course is choosing to follow God or choosing to allow Satan’s foothold on your life and follow his ways. Dr. Steve the scriptures are full of references to the battle between God and Satan. Our adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he can devour. We are to be sober, be vigilant and take up the whole armor of God so that we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. When the whirlwind passes by, the wicked is no more, but the righteous have an everlasting foundation. Between hearing this sermon at the appropriate time in combination with reading the Word and what I’d gleaned here, my light bulb was illuminated.
In my world, my faith is not reinforced by conscience, just the opposite. My conscience is reinforced by my faith where the Holy Spirit resides. My conscience doesn’t punish me, it leads me to introspection and repentance. Can a sociopath “discover” religion, of course and I’ll reference the thief on the cross (don’t know if he was also a sociopath) but he was joined that day with Christ in heaven. Likely not, I agree, but we always have that human condition, God given, of free choice. God doesn’t demand, he knocks softly and always invites. The absence you speak of I see as absence of brain and heart capacity, we agree again in the absence of good, but I cannot perceive his behavior as anything less than the pursuit of evil, consciously or not.
Thank you Dr. Steve for the link, interesting and now I too know about privatio bono . And I enjoy Norman Mailer. Though I’m not familiar with “the castle in the forest” I will look it up and read it.
I believe the man I’ve referred to here, was raised on fire, brimstone, and damnation, where the God of my heart is a loving Father. My quest was to understand how someone so immersed in the Word could live as he chooses to live. Even without emotion and conscience, he has the intelligence to read and comprehend. He goes so far as to climb upon his own personal pulpit and point a condemning finger at others while doing himself exactly what he condemns others for doing. From discussions between he and I, I truly believe his denial is so deep, he cannot see his own participation, instead he excuses it away. I am an “i” dotter and a “t” crosser, i.e., one BA is in Accounting, so I have saved most of our correspondence and can go back and look lest my current perception becomes cloudy. This has been and is the crux of my investigative effort, once I was on my way to realigning my own behavior. This site and Dr. Steve’s site, have been and are invaluable.
T Benzthere, I relate to some of what you say. I am very independent and I am no pushover, fairly astute but like you, where I thought I had kept my autonomy and was safe, he was using that to take space to weave his mischief. Debating with him, just played into his hands, I did the emotional work in response to what he was setting up, and i took the wrap for the fallout.
I put in vast amounts of energy into trying to help him. At the time I couldnt understand why he rejected every bit of it. Letters that took me hours to write, were casually dismissed and tossed in the bin and at the time I can remember thinking what a hard man he is. I made many allowances for his ‘loner’ ways and I even commented on it. I even coaxed him to accepting help or therapy for his abusive childhood and he rejected all help – because I think he knew he had a personality disorder that is difficult to treat.
Benzthere: ‘After about six months, I pushed him back but didn’t slam the door.’ Ouch. So familiar. We really do have to slam the door, don’t we? Preferably with parts of them trapped in it.
My parents brought me up away from any organised religion (my mother suffered a strict Catholic upbringing), but regardless they *did* believe, and they taught me to love other people and be caring towards others. Unfortunately, I think that made me easy prey – in a way I’ve turned out more ‘spiritual’ than if I’d been brought up in a religious atmosphere and with that came forgiving people anything at all, and thinking ‘there’s good and bad in everyone.’
‘My’ sociopath was brought up by a mother he describes as a ‘religious fanatic.’ From an early age she told her family they were all going to hell. She had her children distributing fliers for their Church and ultimately committed adultery, at which point her atheist husband committed suicide. She then abandoned her children to live with her new man and gave all the money from their house sale to their fairly unorthodox church. Is this a whole family of sociopaths, or sociopathic fantasy I wonder. (I met his sister and she seemed to support his story).
Hmmm stages:
WITH HIM: Brain doing somersaults constantly over what might be happening…making lists of female ‘friends’…sickness over maltreatment…blaming self…pity for him…humiliation…anger
LEAVING HIM: Frustration, fear (am I sure it’s not me?)…anger (watching his pathetic attempts to make me change mind)…hope (that I’ve got it all wrong and he’ll do the right thing this time and come back and apologise properly)…grief/disbelief (it’s finally over)…panic (I might see him again…sickness (seeing him already pursuing others and finding out what he was up to while you were with him from people who hadn’t wanted to tell you sooner)
FINDING THIS SITE: Acceptance…intrigue…solidarity! I’m genuinely fascinated by every new thing I read. I must have read enough textbooks to write a doctorate thesis!
Anyone else? Anger hasn’t affected me too much this time, and I’m glad, as I think it’s only any good to give you that initial ‘push’.
Has anyone else gone to therapists and talked for hours about the sociopath rather than your own problems? And then tried to convince the sociopath he’s got a personality order…(and what a great idea that is!)
I went to therapy after the first year – knowing things werent right but I couldnt really put my finger on it. She said never try to explain to a sociopath that you think they are a sociopath. They dont see anything they do as wrong or even questionable and you will walk away angry and feeling again like you are making things up. Anger hasnt really played a part for me – I wished for anger so I could slam the door but as Dr. Steve called it “soft sociopaths” – that was mine. He didnt do the taking, borrowing, stealing, using etc. but rather gave to me to no end, paid for everything, was great sexually-very giving, treated me to so much kind doing and giving that it got to where I felt like a prostitute. Because inside I knew it was to keep the ugly stuff hidden. Why would I question his devotion, his intentions when it was so “apparent” that he only had eyes for me. This would go on 2-3 months then an episode would arise – necessary turbulance I suppose so he could shake things up. Usually involved women, disappearing acts, cell phone turned off and unreachable, or a cold shoulder for no reason etc.. I could make lists. but overall it would have been easier to dump him had he treated me bad, but he was too good to be true. Even now I question myself, but my gut knows. Every nice thing he did do, only made me feel more distant and knowing that I had to save myself soon. What a tangled web. The greatest healing is knowing you all understand.
Southernman – hope you dont mind if i check out your site.. I could use some spiritual healing. thank you