By | January 3, 2013 51 Comments

Who intentionally runs over turtles?

This is a story close to my heart. I live at the Jersey Shore. Every June and July, female turtles creep from the bay and go in search of high ground to lay their eggs. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of them never make it. Their journey takes them across paved roadways, where many are squished. I’ve seen them.

Research by two young men show that a certain percentage of the turtle killings are intentional.

Nathan Weaver, a student at Clemson University placed a plastic turtle in the road near his campus. In the course of one hour, seven out of 267 vehicles, 2.62 percent, swerved in order to hit the turtle. Read:

Clemson student’s turtle project takes a dark twist, on

A psychology professor quoted in the story explained the intentional killings as “the dark side of human nature.” He said,

“They aren’t thinking, really. It is not something people think about. It just seems fun at the time.”

I think the good professor is wrong. I think Weaver was observing sociopathic behavior. Experts estimate that 1 percent to 4 percent of the population are sociopaths. Well, the 2.62 percent of drivers who swerved in order to kill the turtles fit right into that range.

Mark Rober, a NASA engineer, conducted a similar experiment using a rubber turtle, snake and tarantula. He observed 1,000 cars, and 6 percent of of drivers intentionally ran over the animals.

Turtles were hit 1 percent of the time and snakes 1.8 percent—again tracking with the estimated number of sociopaths in society. Tarantulas, however, were hit the most, by far. If I were to interpret this, I’d guess that the tarantula-killers perceived them as dangerous.

Here’s a video of Mark Rober’s Roadkill Experiment.

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Loved this video Donna! I agree, the turtle killers were getting a power trip by killing a helpless and slow animal.

My exspath would stop to save animals that were hurt, but only because it was part of his mask. He made sure that everyone knew what kind deed he’d done and he’d spend hours railing against the horrible people who would hit animals and not stop, not care. Then he’d tell me about how evil everyone else was. Once he said, “I hate humanity!”

Ox Drover

I don’t doubt the results of this study in the least…running over critters here on the roads is a “sport” except for deer and that does too much damage to the vehicle and most people avoid it if they can.

In texas you can buy ceramic armadillos with tire tracks over them, and just about everyone TRIES to hit them, or even drive OVER them as the animals automatically JUMP when scared so will JUMP up and kill themselves on the bottom of the vehicle as the vehicle rolls over them, even if the tires don’t get them.

There have been some studies showing the “macho” mentality of many males when they get behind the wheel…thus “road rage” and other things that people who are normally “non violent” engage in when behind the wheel of a vehicle. Maybe turtle murder is one of those “macho” things.


Great article.

What’ makes the turtles susceptible to being a victim – just BEING THERE – can be different than what makes US susceptible to being victimized by a spath.

We might go running to a therapist saying, “holy shit, I think I was victimized by a spath” and then we end up learning not only about SPATHS but OURESLVES.

Check this out.



Donna, you might be interested in having a look at the Steubenville, OH rape case that’s just now reaching the national media spotlight. Two local 16y.o. boys are charged with raping a minor female who was incapacitated after consuming alcohol at a party that took place last August. The two football players dragged her from party to party like a rag doll. That’s not the worst of it. Other people at the parties, some on the same football team as the alleged rapists, took photos and video and posted them on Twitter, Instagram, and Youtube but never bothered to help the victim. They thought it was hilariously funny that this girl was being violated, possibly even urinated on while she was passed out. The lack of empathy is just astounding. I watched a youtube video today of these boys laughing and cracking jokes, and the first thing that came to mind was “sociopaths”.


Omigawd, Donna, what a GREAT article and it really, REALLY speaks about the spaths that I’ve known.

The exspath used to get very frustrated when I’d ask him to stop the car so I could move a turtle out of the road to the other side. I used to stop for snakes, too…I don’t want to hit ANYthing because wildlife doesn’t understand motor vehicles. They understand predators, but they don’t understand motor vehicles.

DawnG, apparently, we have a whole generation of disordered young people out there. YouTube can be a cesspool of cruelty and disordered behaviors.

Brightest blessings



That is absolutely awful!!!! Makes me sick.

Ox Drover

Dawn G I sent donna an article about this very case today…that made my skin crawl and my blood run cold. Yea, sociopaths, no empathy for this young woman’s pain. in a town so small everyone knows everyone. The whole thing makes me want to PUKE!


Oxy, this has all been taking place less than 20 miles away from my hometown. The local media coverage was pretty basic and didn’t dig for any real information. A former Steubenville resident has been capturing and posting these photos and tweets on her blog since it all started, and she and 25 commenters were sued by the parents of one of the kids involved in “slut shaming” the victim online. All these months later Anonymous starts hacking websites and posting information and now it blew sky high.

Yes, it’s a small city. There are about 18,000 people. I don’t think everyone knows everyone, but probably everyone knows someone who is related to someone. 😉

I think CNN replays AC360 at 10pm EST tonight. They did some good reporting on the case.

The New York Times also did a good article back in mid-December. The head football coach threatened the reporter for daring to question why all the players involved hadn’t been benched for the season.

Ox Drover

Dawn, that is so disturbing, but not “unexpected”—I think our culture is becoming more crude, crass and unfeeling. It makes me sad…very sad.

Tonight I am watching “Rock Center” and that girl who was the 19 year old intern that had the on going affair with JFK (very similar to Clinton’s affair with MOnica) They mentioned the “sense of ENTITLEMENT” that JFK had and the many many women, not just this one girl…RED FLAGS…power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Yea, and Penn State…the Catholic church…cover up…hush it up…pretend it didn’t happen.


One time my X was driving kinda fast, as we topped the hill two little racoons ran across the road, he didnt slow down or try to swerve, just ran right over them, he never flenched or said a word. I was horrified. But of course we were not talkin or he was already mad about something.. I remember gettin chill’s and a tingling feeling on the back of my neck. He didnt swerve to hit them, but if I had been driving I think I could of avoided them. For the most part he seemed to like animals, my dog’s, his cat’s..but he abandoned his cat’s when he moved in with me, when I found out about it I insisted we go get them and soon 3 cat’s became 15..he was good about feeding them etc..but when he left here he left his cat’s..I dunno..I dont think he would ever hurt an animal on purpose..I also realize he loved my dog’s because I loved my dog’s..mirror mirror on the wall? oh well.


Moon, what I’ve experienced with spaths and animals is that they are, indeed, mirroring what they believe to be an indication of empathetic behavior. They “appear” to “love” animals, but there’s always something missing, like concern for ALL animals or nature.

The first exspath collected animals but never actually “cared” for them. He would want lovely birds (Gouldian Finches) and exotic fish, but he would never feed them or clean cages or tanks. The poor dog that we had was so neglected that it was sickening – even with a broken back, I made sure that she was fed and watered and he would remark, “Let her die, then we can get a REAL dog.” “Real” dog translated into something that would give him an illusion of being a badass – like a pit bull or rottweiler.

The second exspath always wanted animals and he would often “forget” to feed or water them. He NEVER cleaned the litter boxes and basically left all care of the pets up to me. When he left, I had one old and sickly dog that needed medications, and 9 cats. Four of those cats were “drop offs” that were rescued and waiting to be adopted. Not once did that man see fit to send someone with food or the expensive medications for the dog. And, this poor dog that he claimed to “love” so much never saw him again before she passed.

EDIT ADD: The colleague’s girlfriend “forgot” to feed her dog, regularly. Like….4 days in a row, once. I fed that poor dog, even though she wasn’t my responsibility. After 4 days, she said, “I think I forgot to feed the dog!” It was only then that I told her that I had fed the dog and she only said, “Thanks.” THEN, she got another dog after we vacated, and I hate to imagine how neglected those dogs are.

Spaths portray what they think will make them look “normal.” And, as you pointed out, Moon, it was absolute mirroring that the spath “loved” your dogs because you did. UGH

OFF TOPIC: Athena, the blog that you posted by Penelope Trunk was gut-wrenching. How many children are experiencing the same things, today? Godalmighty, but the SECRETS run so deep for some of us, and I just spoke to my son about “secrets,” yesterday. Thank you for posting the link and I’m so saddened that any child is so thoroughly destroyed by their own parents.

Brightest blessings


Truthspeak, that sounds a lot like my ex. He had two cats, both strays that showed up, that he didn’t really take care of except to feed them. They weren’t allowed in the house ever and he was always threatening to shoot them because they ate too much. They were both black cats and only black cats were allowed to stay. He shoots any other strays on sight. It took me a while to figure that one out.

He also had two St Bernards, mother and son, who only got minimal care. They were either chained to dog houses or were kept on a dirty basement floor with no bedding. He never bathed them, never fed them quite enough, they drank unclean water, and they never got veterinary care after his live-in girlfriend left him a year before I met him. The mother dog died younger than she should have. Eventually he moved the boy dog’s house (with a metal roof) into a sunny location with no shade in the heat of summer. I think he was trying to kill it because he was tired of taking care of him.

I considered stealing that dog after I left the spath and finding a proper home for him. I even offered to buy him but he said no, he loves that dog. I don’t think about the spath anymore but I still wonder about the dog.


Ex-spath would feed dogs and cats of others as a mirror to show himself an animal lover. Several of “his” dogs though in his past got run over, and the one of his dad survived that without any harm… He was not allowed to walk her on his own. His dad trusted me to walk the dog though.

He fed Darwin, took pictures of that… But he wouldn’t clean the litter and often “forgot” to close the door. Luckily Darwin, while inquisitive, is more scared without me being there, especially of the outside, and just hid in closets in such a case. But Midas, my parent’s cat had a broken tip of a tail in the last month ex was in Belgium, as if his tail had been jammed in between a door. And last year, the vet discovered his breastbone had been broken once. It had already healed, but a bit crooked. It could have stem from the period ex-spath was here. He’s more fragile and fracture prone because of his arthritis (15 now, and still going), and the breastbone could have broken perhas from jumping down something and landing hard, and it could have been anyone’s door that broke his tail (he visits people if he can). Still strange though, that he had weird fractures, at least one involving a person shutting a door on his tail, and the other someone possibly kicking him against the chest, stem from the time ex-spath was in that house. And while one normally would reason – no, he/she wouldn’t do that, must be another cause, or someone else… it’s the other way around with spaths in most stuff. So, I can’t rule him out, especially because he’s he.

Anyway, dogs and cats seem “accident” prone around him. He showed callousness, posessiveness and envy when it came to animals, just like he does with people. And at least from the start, I refused to get him a dog when he came to Belgium. I told him I had no room for it (which was true), and it would be irresponsible to keep a dog in a 40 m² apartment… but I had doubts already whether he was responsible enough to actually keep one (and I know nada about dogs, except for what I see from the dog whisperer on national geographic), even though I did trust him around animals. I wouldn’t trust him near an animal now by a long shot.

Moon, perhaps your ex was not sadistic, in that he may not have taken pleasure in hurting animals, but what you described about the racoons is total callousness, and the same goes for the cats he abandons. His cats were just a prop for the mask. He never really cared about them. He would leave them to starve obviously without batting an eye, if you hadn’t insisted to go get them.


Mine didn’t like animals. I have always said be leery of anyone who doesn’t like animals…


I don’t think this always applies, Louise, and it depends in what degree people don’t like animals.

I know plenty of people who don’t dislike animals, but not fond enough to own one, and quite apprehensive about petting those of others. Some people never grew up with animals, and are apprehensive of them because it’s an unknown to them, and actually feel very responsible about harming it, exactly because they have no clue how to approach them nor train them.

I’m apprehensive of dogs in that way a bit. I never had one in the house and I was bitten thrice as a child (a cow herder dog on pension who mistook my dancing legs for those of an unwieldy cow I guess, a bouvier, and a rottweiler)… never drew blood, but enough to scare the bejebus out of me.


My mother once offered to buy me some new cushion’s for my lawn furniture ( if I would not let my dog’s get on them ) I said ” I dont want cushions my dogs cant get on…she got real mad…that was control in action…..
i had a guy visit one time and he asked if he could sit some place my dog’s hadnt been on… I said ”yeah in your car on your way home” (my home is very clean) and I put them in their room when i have company but it is dog friendly…
so Louise you and I just dont mix with people that dont mix with critters.


I hope you saw my reply about taking a chance on meeting an old friend. It’ a different perspective than what others wrote. Best, Katy



Good story! Yeah, I do agree. I understand what darwinsmom was saying regarding maybe someone doesn’t really like animals just because they didn’t grow up with them or they are afraid of them. I kind of get that. Overall, I still think if someone just is an animal hater for no reason…that is a red flag for me personally.


Katy, I didnt, and I cant find the thread I posted that on..
I would like your perspective. I have talked to him a few times a week ago but have kinda pulled back..I keep remembering the bad things he did and the negative things he did to others..
I did tell him a little about my journey, the encounter with the spath and how that was the cataylist for change for me. He really seemed interested.. I suggested a few books, in the hope he can see some of his flaws.. I do miss him, but at the same time I am very lonely and in need of a friend….
Maybe it could be better this time because I have changed?



I agree about animal haters, but animal haters do not always shout it from the top of the roofs.

I have several friends though who don’t own a pet, or hardly ever did, and hardly know how relate to mine, and are happy he stays away (hides). But they’re more uncomfortable than that they hate them. My best friend has an allergy for cat hairs. She had a dog once, and after he died of old age, could never adopt another again. My cousin and aunt are neat freaks. They had a maltezer once. But heartbroken could never consider having another pet. Another friend of mine never owned pets, though she petsitted for a month once. None of them are unkind to any pet I’ve seen, but often uncomfortable and would never have one themselves (again).


MoonDancer! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I know is that I’m leery of ANYONE who either uber-loves animals or uber-hates them. I don’t mean loving their pets, but over-the-top stuff.

Although I would very much love to have a dog, I know that I cannot make that financial and physical committment, just yet. Maybe, never again. But, it still doesn’t prevent me from going to sheep dog trials, petting other dogs, and loving my friends’ dogs.

Now, I have no desire to ever own an iguana or tarantula.

Brightest blessings


Truthy, I dont think I am over uber or under uber, i am just uber when it comes to critters.


I don’t know the thread either. I only remember bits, and I was SOOOoo clever. Mebbies not as clever as I wish I were!

My response was to think about giving him a chance. I have grown/matured in 10 years. I know you have too. Mebbie he did as well. But, practice what you’ve learned in these years, about not handing someone the keys to harm/hurt you. Boundries baby. b/c at my age, meeting people is difficult, and yer my age darling. So instead of rejecting before you know, I say be curious. See if he’s matured/got his act together. You did and gosh it’s pretty darn attractive.


Moon, I don’t know what I meant when I typed that. I think that what I meant to type was that I really need to OBSERVE, watch, and listen to people (as OxD mentioned LONG ago) and learn how to better “read” them and their actions.

The exspath always went on and on and on (ad nauseum) about how much he “loved” our pets and, yet, when he left he made NO effort to see that at least the innocent creatures were fed or had their medications. So, he wanted to see me suffer, OKAY, then. But, he simply walked away from the pets, too.

Thankfully, I got to spend my dog’s last months with her, alone, and cared for her with as much gentle love and kindess as I could. I have her ashes, and the ashes of all of our previous pets that passed. And, he’s asked for NONE of them which just goes to show how much they really meant to him…..

Brightest blessings


I love critters. Am a farm kid so no prob w/snakes or mousies, and a healthy respect for critters to give a WIDE berth to, like coons.

So when I met my rancher husband, I was SO impressed b/c his photo album had LOTs of photos of dogs. That was the image. I found out their dogs did not die of old age. I rescued a kitten from his brother (also an spath but with NO MASK, the guy was so SURE he was right about everything that he was a Fricken control freak jerk, doing petty crime to bully/beat who he didn’t like, etc. This GREAT TO TAKE HIS KITTEN FROM HIS BARN b/c he was going to starve/beat/kick it since it was just an animal.) That kitten was my baby, went on walks with me like a dog. And BLEW my husband’s mind when it died of old age. The FIRST animal he ever had that died of old age. And my X! is in his 50’s.

Just b/c someone seems to love animals doesn’t mean they do. Just means they know to use them as an image b/c girls get all fuzzy when they see kittens, and photos of dogs. I went years without an animal, not b/c I didn’t like them but b/c I worked weird hours and couldn’t be sure I’d be around to care for them.

The more I think about spaths, the more I conclude NOTHING is black and white, except the absense of humanity in them.


KatyDid….100% spot-on. It’s like Skylar says: 180 rule. And, you are SO right about the absence of humanity.

They move through a sea of humanity looking, smelling, eating, and “functioning” like a member of the human race, and they are like those animals and insects that simply MIMIC.

Brightest blessings

Ox Drover

Moon dancer you said

” I have talked to him a few times a week ago but have kinda pulled back..I keep remembering the bad things he did and the negative things he did to others..”


you also said:

“I am very lonely and in need of a friend”.”

This leaves you VULNERABLE when you are lonely and looking for Friendship or love. Makes you put up with stuff.

You said “Maybe it could be better this time because I have changed? ”

Like this time you can make it better. I think you need to see rule #1 again,


Actually I don’t agree with the 180 rule. There is MUCH I do agree with Skylar, her spath reminds me MOST of my spath, they did a LOT, though a LOT alike.

But my spath would tell the truth but withhold just a TINY piece, BUT that tiny piece would change EVERYTHING. He was not the opposite, he was just 1% off, but if you sail 1% off? You hit the rocks.

Ox Drover

RAt poison is 99% PURE WHOLESOME CORN MEAL and 1% poison, but it will kill you…so the combination of pure+poison=deadly poison, the opposite of wholesome. I think it is simply semantics and it doesn’t matter if it is 50% lie and 50% truth, or 99% truth and 1% lie, the end result is that it is DECEPTION~! Deception=lies.


well, my spath told SO much truth, (99%) i only knew about the 1% in hindsight. i think i could have figured him out if he was 50% lies.
but yer right, it was ALL poisonous deception, as Donna says from one of the first articles I read from her… He was the lie from hello to goodbye.


Ox, so I know why I wanted to speak to this X friend again. I needed to tell him how I felt about his betrayel so many years ago, I needed to let him know I WAS a good friend. I needed to tell him how he hurt me. And yes a small part of me wanted to see if perhaps he had changed..Well I got a big apology from him but it was not sincere, and he has not changed.. So it wasn’t for not.. I told him how I felt.. I released some pain, but no I cant be friend’s with him..he is a sociopath.
Ox is right, when somebody tell’s you who they are Listen Close the First time…


ya’ll got a rare thing MoonDancer. Closure. good. i kin live vicariously. 🙂


Happy New Year everyone! I know, a “blast from the past”… It’s winter and I hibernate and stop running around with my girls after I decided to stop by and say “hello”…

I was told by my xhusb/socio by his best friend, 2 weeks prior to our wedding…that he tortured kittens when he was young!! I remember the chill up my spine that day!

The first month of dating him, as I introduced him to my uncle outside of my condo where my uncle and I lived…my cat came along…and he chased it into the busy main street we lived on! I remember my uncle telling me to get rid of him…he saw a huge red flag…

Eight years..and 3 kids later…I divorced him. That was ten years ago. FF>> He never paid child support, until they would arrest him…He was abusive during the marriage to us….and neglected them all of these years. So, 3 years ago he moved out of state, to Fla to avoid being arrested and put in jail until he paid back support.

Well, he married a Brazilian woman and made her a citizen..They are both “born again Christians”…etc. So he sends my 3 girls..ages 15,16,18…a photo of a baby via text….”This is your new brother”. (He owes 50k child support…btw) Right before xmas!! It really upset them so I texted him and told them not to text them and upset them.. Does he really think they are supposed to be “happy” about this? Gee, I have a new son….and I’m happy even though I never took care of YOU girls!!!!

I usually don’t contact him at all..but I texted him to tell him to STOP …that THEY asked me to tell him that.

He told me to stop interfering with him and “HIS” girls!!

He is really sick. And my 15 yr old wants to know him for some reason…lately. She asked him how he plans to support his new son…since he doesn’t support her…and he lied and said that he DOES!!!

It never ends with these dangerous liars!!!

Anyway…People wonder why i have no interest is getting involved with another man! Arms distance….


Hi Tobehappy,,, What a turd he is….how cruel and sorry for you and your children but thanks for stopping in…

Katy, yes is was closure, I am not happy about it but it was closure….and this was not a XBF just a Xspath. I guess closure doesnt always feel good because right now I am reliving alot of betrayal…


I’m sorry for your sad time, but still am proud that you got a little of your own back. Take care dear heart. Katy

Ox Drover

Dear Moondancer, I’m sorry your “friend” was still a spath…yea, it is nice if we can get some closure from these old situations…sometimes we just get bitten again if we try to get that closure. I hope you do feel better about it though and got some closure.

I look back at some of my past relation-shits (I love that word, thanks for inventing it!) friends, co-workers, etc. and I would like to have a “last word” with them but As much as I might like that, it just isn’t worth it because THEY ARE NOT GONNA GET IT, OR CARE. The OR CARE part is the biggest reason I don’t contact some of these folks again.

It is just like my egg donor..they may not be psychopaths, but they are NOT HEALTHY FUNCTIONAL PEOPLE. Not people I want in my life any more. I used to think I had a LOT OF FRIENDS….but now I realize that my real friends can be counted on less than the fingers in one hand. REAL friends. Friends that won’t let you down, that will be there no matter what.

I have BEEN that kind of friend to lots of people, but few people have been that kind of friend TO ME. Just like I was a pretty good parent and friend to my biological kids, but you know what I got in return. One tried to kill me and the other one just doesn’t warn me…and afterward, when he almost got killed and I was a “prophet” he still LIED TO ME and broke agreements.

It hurts when you ARE a friend to someone who is NOT a friend to you, but I find it is still better to know the truth and accept the truth, and have only 1 or 2 GOOD friends than 1,000 fake friends.

One year I entertained so much, not formal entertainment or “parties” as such, just every weekend and most week nights from 5 to 10 folks for supper or other meals, so many meals that I actually butchered and cooked 4 COMPLETE STEERS that year that went across my dining room table. I thought most of these people were “friends” but I realize now they were just folks that we “knew”–and who were more than happy to sit at my table and EAT my food and enjoy the company around here, but where are they NOW?

Well, some of them I have literally THROWN off the farm and told never to come back for stealing from me. (actually that number is fairly significant)

A couple of them died.

Some moved away.

And the rest…well I have no idea where they are, they just vanished into the fog.

Then there is my x best friend for 30+ years. I miss her, but she is so depressed from her abusive husband that she is no longer functional, and in her pain she strikes out at those nearest her. But I can no longer tolerate this. I realize she has done this “forever” but in my own dysfunction I just “over looked” this and allowed her to do this. But I can’t do that any more. I can no longer tolerate overt abuse from anyone any more, even those I love. ESPECIALLY from those I love.

The last words she spoke to me were “that’s what best friends are for, they hurt each other and make up” and I replied “No, that’s NOT what best friends are for, best friends don’t attack each other”

She isn’t a psychopath, though I think her abusive alcoholic husband is high in P traits, and she is emotionally and financially trapped in that marriage, but I am NOT. I don’t hate her, I still love her, and I’m still her FRIEND…even though we may never speak to each other again, she is just a victim, but I can’t allow her to strike out at me in her pain.

There’s a lot of things we have to learn in order to become healthy ourselves, and part of it is that we can’t allow others to abuse us, no matter who they are or how much we love them. We can’t keep holding on to “hope” –MALIGNANT unrealistic hope– that they will change.

That’s what I did with Patrick, was hold on to unrealistic, malignant hope that he would change…I did it for DECADES.

I did it with my P X BF but thankfully, only for a few weeks not decades…

I did it for my entire life with my egg donor.

I did it with my son C, and so on down the list of friends, associates and relatives.

Not all these people are psychopaths, but they are at least dysfunctional and not healthy for me to associate with.

Learning and growing is painful sometimes but in the end we are better for the process.

I have had friends that left me feeling like, wtf? and then I never saw them again. I felt that I didn’t get closure.

One gift that the spath gave me was closure with those friends, because once I understood what a spath was, I was able to pull those friends out of my wtf? bucket and place them in the sociopath bucket, then slam the lid on them. Closure. It feels great.

Once you know spaths, that’s the kind of closure you can make for yourself. DONE.



I agree!

I recently had an encounter with a friend or I should say former co-worker. It’s kind of long to type, but short story…I contacted her because I saw on Facebook (we are friends on Facebook) that she moved to another location within my old company…is a much shorter drive for her, etc. so I contacted her via email and congratulated her and asked if she wanted to get together. She replied and said she would love to…we set up a time…when time came, she didn’t reply to my trying to confirm with her (I wasn’t going to drive there if she wasn’t able to make it)…she never replied…we finally got in touch with each other and she made excuses and suggested another date…I said that would work and then she never replied. WTF?? I think she didn’t want to talk about spath and was avoiding me, but in the beginning she seemed really eager to meet with me. She even said that she REALLY couldn’t wait to catch up! Because we were meeting around Christmas, I had bought her a Starbucks giftcard. I ended up mailing it to her in a Christmas card and she has never even thanked me for it! Never heard a peep from her! That is RUDE! Sooooo, needless to say, I will never speak to her again. It’s a prime example of behavior that there is NO excuse for…none. I won’t ever see her anyway so there is no reason to speak to her again. I won’t ever reach out to her again…I did and she in essence rejected me so that’s it. I didn’t write about this before because it’s kind of long and it’s really draining. Blech.

Plus, what she did to me totally triggered me because that is exactly what spath would do to me…suggest times to get together and then ignore me! GRRRRRRRR.

lack of empathy on her part. We would feel bad if we did that. I also think that she is a fence sitter or a spath. She has probably been hearing gossip about you (spaths never stop slandering their victims) and loved it so much that she couldn’t wait to get a jab in.

It’s amazing how many spaths just sit around doing nothing until a BIGGER spath shows up and goads them on, then they jump in the game!

My brother is a prime example. He has never done much, just drink, do drugs, kill kittens, some burglary he got busted for in his youth – the usual. He’s been a manipulative parasite but not an active plotting spath.

When I ran from my spath, I ended up at my parents’. He was already there living in the basement utility room. I had no idea he was a spath, but I had started to figure out that he was a narcissist, from a book I read, not quite understanding what that meant. (I just thought n’s were people who never grew up and that if you explained it to them, they could try harder LOL!)

But when he heard what the spath had done, it was like he had tasted blood. The change was amazing. He got right into the act, the love bomb, the attempt to solicit money, the whole drama rama. Then he attacked me.

In all my 43 years (at the time) he had never shown this kind of behavior toward me. Then seeing me injured, brought out the predator in him.

I think that this is where the saying, “Never let them see you sweat” (or bleed) comes from. Evil loves to prey on weak prey.


OxD, I clearly identify with the loss of friends and you put it very well: disappeared into the fog.

I used to take this kind of loss to heart – something I did must have caused them to dislike me, and I would often attempt to find out what I’d done!

After this past year, I’ve heard from NOBODY that I used to work with – one student and one fellow artist have taken the time out of their lives to keep in touch with me. All of the other people who said that they were “so sad” that I was relocating and would “promise to keep in touch” never did. I mean, in a preivous life, I would have been calling people and chasing after them because I was so needy. Today, these people rarely cross my mind because I came to accept that these people never really cared, either – just like the exspaths, they simply did not give two shits about me, my well-being, my son’s well-being, or what I’ve been surviving.

And, it doesn’t bother me, anymore, like it once would have. For that, I feel that I’ve made some strong progress in letting go, seeing a spade and calling it what it is, and moving forward with my own life. I actually feel GOOD about this.

So, yeah……I may have lost a great many things, but I also gained some priceless self-esteem and dignity out of all of this.

Brightest blessings


Thank You, MoonDancer…(love your name..). My Xhusb
is a real Sociopath…and the abuse continued even after our divorce ten years ago. His neglect to contact the girls for ten years…and not paying child support…and then to text them that they have a brother!!!! OMG…it really threw me off and ruined my holidays…which is what he wanted.
I am glad that I texted him back to let him know that THEY want me to tell him to stop texting them on holidays only and now to zap them with this!!! Satan lives on….poor kid. I foresee the wife leaving to go to Brazil with the child…when he begins to abuse her as he did my girls and me!!!!


ToBeHappy, it’s good to “see” you, again and I’m sorry about what your daughters experienced – and, don’t let it be ignored that he chose the time to “gift” the girls with the news of their “brother.” What a sick and vicious thing for anyone to do, especially after he’s been such an absentee parent, on every level. Ugh….

How old are your daughters? Are they old enough to choose whether they will have contact with their father, or not? I know that some States allow for a child 12+ to determine the level of contact they’ll have with a non-custodial parent. This may be an option.

Brightest comforting blessings



I just saw your post late last night.

Yeah, I would NEVER do that to someone…seriously. I would never even think of ignoring someone like that; it’s just not in my nature.

She is not a spath. I knew her for five years at work. Actually quite the opposite so that is why it has been puzzling. I will say though that she may be a fence sitter and I thought exactly as you said….I am SURE he has been talking trash about me and she would have heard it since she was somewhat in his circles. My take was that she initially wanted to meet, but then she thought better of it…perhaps she didn’t want to engage in talking about him. But that truly is not why I was meeting with her. I know it would have only hurt me to talk about him anyway. Whatever the reason I guess doesn’t matter. In the end she blew me off and to not even thank me for the gift was extremely rude sooooo…that is it as far as I am concerned.

Very interesting story about your brother. Believe it or not, I have seen that happen before in my life. Not to me, but to other people. You are so right about people preying on weak prey…like kick them when they are down…it is EVIL!

I ‘inherited’ my beloved chihuahua because my spath/husband who wanted her soooooo badly,couldn’t/wouldn’t take care of her,and it used to make me so mad when he found so many reasons to keep her caged in her carrier.And he didn’t want her outside at all “until she has had her shots and been protected from heartworms”—-now that was nothing but CONTROLLING and CRUEL!


I need some help my friends…I want advice….and I know I can get the truth here..the cold war still rages between my husband regarding my 15 months NC with my Spath step daughter. It is a silent thoughts are that he is severely passive aggressive…tell me what you all think….since I told her not to come back here when I was home, he punishes me. He will tell me he loves me, but he might as well be saying “it’s raining”. He quit having sex with me….he sleeps on the couch every night…he goes for extended rides on the weekends in his nice sports car…he NEVER asks me to go with him..he never talks to me, only if I ask a question or need to know something.. he is not loud and he never acts outwardly angry…when I text him, he ignores it, unless it’s something urgent. He “fake” yawns when I’m talking..rarely looks at me when I’m talking…really acts as if I’m a piece of furniture..I’m just here, that’s all….I think he has been trying to make me leave him without him making any moves. He would never want to look like the bad guy..he is a total puppet to the Spath daughter…he thinks I should just let her do or say whatever she wants to and I should just overlook it…I have refused to do that and he is so furious I know he hates me for dissing his little baby girl….I have always felt like he has turned her into the “other” woman. He will NEVER cross her because he absolutely cannot deal with any kind of conflict. She is sociopathic in every sense of the word and deep down I feel like he is scared of her too so that’s one reason he will never come against her…I need some of you really smart people to tell me what they would do in this situation…I walk around clenching my jaw most of the time because of the stress and not knowing what the outcome will he just classic passive aggressive or does it sound like something else….? We have been married 32 years and he had custody of her because her bio mother was a Spath as well and took off when she was a baby…so by him being her primary care taker they developed some kind of weird attachment to each other. It’s almost like I’ve always been an intruder in their relationship…32 years is a long time….there were good years, but when I went NC with her….he cannot deal with ANYONE that he perceives as standing up to her…I feel like maybe since I’m in the situation I cannot see it clearly….HELP…..I love you guys……you are always here for me!!!

your boundaries have to be more than just physical. They have to be emotional too. He is punishing you by withholding love and attention. He is trying to control you by using your emotions. A normal person doesn’t do that. Only a controlling narcissist or spath would do that.

You’ve stayed 15 months too long. I’m sorry for your 32 years that you invested in him. I can relate with my 25.5 years of wasted life with spath. But I try not to think of it that way. I try to realize that I gained knowledge and wisdom that I most certainly wouldn’t have gained any other way.

In fact, these days, when I meet more evil people, I chalk it up to experience. By allowing myself to see people as they REALLY ARE, I grow in wisdom.

It seems to me that if he is behaving this way now, there were probably other things he has done to control you in the past 32 years. Maybe you just didnt’ notice? Or, like me, you thought it was okay because you thought men are just that way?

time to look out for YOU and what you want. Your happiness is waiting for you. Go get it.



I thought of you when I read this. 🙁

Ox Drover

Creampuff, it will NOT GET BETTER…THIS IS CLASSIC “PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE” and remember “passive-aggressive” is AGGRESSIVE…

You have two choices. AND ONLY TWO choices

1) live life the way it is being lived now
2) leave

I think you are right, I think he is trying to force you to leave and be the “bad guy” by leaving him…but what other choice do you have? #1–live life the way it is now…with him treating you worse than dirt.

Leaving is a big decision…it will require splitting assets and all that, as well as “what do you tell the neighbors?” The thing is that YOU have to make the decision of #1 or #2. You cannot control how he behaves, you can only decide if you want to put up with by living in the same house with him for the next 30 years with him acting this way?

I know this is a tough decision, Creampuff…you made the BIG hard choice when you went NC with her and with your P daughter…and this is the natural consequence when you are dealing with a HARD CORE ENABLER…your husband and my egg donor are a pair of a kind…both punishers if you don’t do what they want you to which is allow the psychopath to abuse you.

NC is my only option with ANYONE who enables the psychopath who abuses me. But YOU must decide for your self…what is behind DOOR #1 OR DOOR #2.

argh! horrible, just horrible. You can’t even win the lottery without looking over your shoulder.

I think whomever cashed the check is the guilty party. Probably the evil wife?

You know, it behooves us to keep our personal and financial situation private. I wasn’t that way at first, but the last 10 years or so, I had begun to hide my financial situation from the spath. I really had no reason, it was just a feeling that I needed to keep things to myself.

He raged and demanded that I do a financial spreadsheet so he could know our exact status. I made up a fake one.



I know! This really broke my heart! I couldn’t believe when I read it and thought the same thing you did…whoever cashed the check much later must be the culprit. I have a feeling now that they know it was a murder that they will find out who it was. Thank God for the relative that pushed for a further investigation!

I agree about our financial situations. You just can’t trust anyone!

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