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By | May 8, 2010 88 Comments

Why do they kill?

Anyone who is interested in the topic of domestic violence should read Why Do They Kill? by David Adams. The book describes Adams’ detailed interviews of men who were convicted of killing their partners, and women who were victims of attempted murder.

The breakthrough here is that Dr. Adams’ findings are in complete agreement with those of Dr. Dutton. There is now little doubt that terroristic batterers have psychopathic personality traits.

Because David Adams’ findings are so important I want to summarize them here, then so as not to throw too much at you at once, next week I’ll relate these findings to psychopathic personality traits and explain why I would call these individuals “sociopaths”.

First, both Dutton and Adams are clear, violence and emotional abuse occur in the context of one person attempting to control another. So they are similarly motivated”¦ The motivation is control.

According to Adams, violence happens because the perpetrator wishes to punish the victim and others in her life. That reason was given by 95% of victims.

All relationships started with a “honeymoon” where the perpetrator’s true character was not apparent.

All perpetrators who killed or attempted to kill their partners threatened to do so prior to the act. On page 200 of the book, specific threats and the context of these threats are listed for a number of victims. Adams believes that the threats facilitated perpetrators psyching themselves up for the act.

Access to firearms was a leading factor in murder and attempted murder. Adams recommends we address the issue of firearms in the hands of these men.

If you are reading this and have been involved with a sociopath who has threatened to kill you and has access to weapons you are in a very serious situation. Though most people in your situation are not killed or nearly killed, all those killed or nearly killed come with these risk factors.

Next week: How is killing connected to the other aspects of sociopathy?


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Ox Drover

Dear Liane,

I think you address an aspect here of psychopaths that many people don’t “get”—again we (the rest of humanity) have difficulty believing that someone could actually say and MEAN “I could kill you” or “I would like to kill you,” especially someone whom we have loved, shared intimacy with, lived with.

I think the first time or two when they make the threat they are using those words to scare victims into compliance with their control attempt, but they eventually lose it and in a fit of temper kill the victim, or they decide very cold-bloodly to plan and execute their plan to rid themselves of the person they can no longer control or who stands in the way of whatever it is that they want.

I very well understand the cold blooded nature of a psychopath and the ability they have to execute others for revenge or for gain. Though many are not murderers or even legally criminal, I think that any psychopath or person without conscience can become a killer.

Buttons

Thank you, Liane, for the article – it is so important for non-spaths to accept that these people can, and DO, kill people that they claim to “love,” simply because they believe that they have the right to take someone’s life, and that they can.

Ex spath used to threaten me, constantly: if you leave, I’ll shoot the kids, you, then myself; if you leave, I’ll hunt you down like the animal you are; if you leave, I’ll see you dead before you ever get your hands on MY (his) kids.

3 years ago, a woman who worked with my spouse was attempting to leave her abusive boyfriend. Everyone around her, coworkers and friends, knew that he had been physically abusive with her, but claimed that they “…had no idea how bad it was…” until she failed to appear for her scheduled shift. The ex boyfriend went to her home as she was waiting for her son to come off the school bus before she left for her shift. He entered her home and drew out a shotgun. As she ran from him, he shot her in the back and walked up to where she lay and blew her face off. Then, he turned the gun on himself and committed suicide.

People KNEW that he was violent. She had taken out an order of protection. To what end? A tragic one.

bulletproof

I knew the P was potentially a killer..it’s not something you can measure or predict easily that’s why I welcome the 10 years research this book has done, with real investigation into why and who etc so that some EVIDENCE is produced that we can SEE
We can KNOW till the cows come home….but until he kills someone there is no evidence.

I listened to my own intuition. Thank God I had a morsel of common sense left and I didn’t marry him. Honeymoon period flawless, no cracks, he described himself as a peaceful man….yes until I started finding out what was underneath his mask.

He turned dangerous in direct relation to my worry, fear and eventual fury. I always think that for him he was watching me happy, in love, smiling at the beginning (if you want to hide from a P, act this way as it could buy some precious time to get away)
my expressions back at him must have began to get more worried looking, unhappy, sad and angry…this he would interpret as ‘defective’ she is not what I wanted…(someone to reflect how wonderful he is 24/7)
it’s when I started to ask him to ACCOUNT for missing thousands of Euro I sent him to renovate the house…and confront him about on line conversations with other women…that’s when I felt the pure evil coming from him. the message was sent via looks, vibes, little sentences was loud and clear

I will do Exactely what I want to do. I am not answerable to you or anyone. You are here because you are stupid… get smart and see what happens. I will move on and nothing or no one will stop me. If you try and stop me I will steamroll you into the ground no problem. So take me to court or whatever silly lttle thing you need to do, that tells me I am still in control and I will enjoy wasting your time (in a way you do the killing of yourself! ha ha what a good trick) I will never give you back anything, it’s gone and over and that’s it! you can’t ever take from me the fact I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU AND YOUR PATHETIC LIFE

He would kill me to “remove the mess” He would kill me if he could not MOVE ON…from you know the crazy woman who whines and moans at him. He would never HEAR a confrontation, that is why it’s dangerous to confront them as the “truth” means nothing to them anyway. They live according to their own laws. Even when locked up in prison.

I hope he does not kill anyone obviously and factors have to conspire in a certain way before that’s going to happen…HE WILL however continue to cause awful damage to innocent naive and trustworthy people unless they are pushed like us here on LF to wake up and smell the coffee.

The psycho/philosphical stance of a P ‘I feel nothing, therefore I am’

Ox Drover

Dear Bulletproof,

It is interesting to me that there have only been three of us comment on this particular thread. I wonder how many have actually READ this thread.

Is this a possibility that others don’t want to think about because it is too threatening to their internal safety to think about it?

I don’t guess any of us want to think about someone killing us, but with people who are domestic abusers (especially ones who are physical) it is a very real possibility! It happens frequently in the US and I suspect all over the world.

The psychopath feels owner ship of the significant other rather than caring about the welfare of, I think.

I realize that after a few comments on the particular subject by several posters that the topic may veer way off the subject line, but very FEW articles posted here, and especially very few posted by Liane Leedom get almost NO responses—-actually, the lack of responses here is I think an article in itself.

WHY are YOU (that’s all the other bloggers) NOT responding to this article?

silvermoon

Given that from what I learn, the person who used to be here, has never had a woman leave him in the past without a two year PTO,

I am concerned. However, I am alone in it. Could he be very dangerous- well, yes. I do respect the possibility. Especially since who he really is is NOT known. Or at least none of the folks who know feel obligated in any way to tell me.

Eerily I remember he said something to me about being owned and how he liked it before his untimely departure.

Want me to say its not a terryfying notion? I can’t. There was no physical or verbal abuse in the time I was with him. We had a lovely honeymoon phase in that respect.

He was just googling his online dates before the Marriage license got cold. Literally. Beyond that, I have no idea. I have no warning of physical violence. I have no reference from anyone who has known him in the last 10 years.

Did he show all the signs of being a P- yes.

In my situation, this calls to mind a story about a phone that was wired to tell a deaf person that the phone was ringing. Good. What next?

I can’t prove he is a P, I can’t prove there is any reason for a PTO and I can’t hang around to find out.

Its too, too weird

Buttons

OxD, this article touches me on many levels – I’ve known of serveral people who were murdered by their spouses or S/O when they tried to leave. In the same town where the woman’s ex b/f shot her, a cop shot and killed his soon-to-be-ex-wife alleging that she “attacked” him with a knife, and him still in his kevlar vest. He was 6’4″, she was 5’2″, and he wanted everyone to believe that his years of training escaped him and he drew his service weapon and shot her to death in her own kitchen.

The idea that someone we “know” could be capable of brutally and callously taking another human being’s life is probably too much for most people to acknowledge or accept. I know what the ex spath and spath son were/are capable of, and I don’t believe that the spath son is above murder. For me to pretend otherwise would simply be an act of enabling.

Ox Drover

I think about my P-son’s victim. BEFORE he killed her he was at a party with her friends, waiting for her to show up…HE TOLD ALL HER FRIENDS HE INTENDED TO KILL HER. I’m not sure if her friends (probably in the age range of 16-20) told her what he said or if any of them took it at all seriously.

When she came there, he got her to go with him. He took her to a deserted field on the edge of a major city, shot her in the head, took her jewelry, her purse and I.D. WENT BACK TO THE PARTY WHERE HER FRIENDS WERE….TOLD THEM HE KILLED HER, and gave her stuff back to the friends, also telling them, he didn’t get her leather jacket as it had blood all over it. Went to the place he lived, put the murder weapon under his matress and WENT TO SLEEP.

THE NEXT DAY, (I’m not sure what time) her friends contacted her family who contacted the police who arrested my P son (he was on parole) and lodged a “Missing persons” report for her.

Eventually my P son told another inmate he had met in jail where the body was and asked the inmate (who was out by now) to move the body. TALK ABOUT trusting someone immediately with your fate as a murderer….can we say STOOOOOPID!? The cops of course, found the body.

Then my P-son, criminal genius that he was, called his cousin’s house on the jail phone and asked his cousin’s son to move the gun which was under his mattress.

It was almost a year and a half before Texas actually brought him to trial, I would have been there by my son lied to me about the date of the trial and I didn’t have enough sense at the time to find out except by his word of the date when or where it was. He actually didn’t want us to see or hear the testimony or the evidence against him….after it was over I spoke to his attorney who told me WHAT THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED WAS. (Not a violation of client confidentiality)

It still i s “UN-belkieveable to me” that a kid with an IQ in the 99th percentile of “intelligence” could be so arrognat that he thought in light of how he incriminated himself that he could “get away with” what he did to her. He still brags about it, and how it was much WORSE than the cops even knew.

When he tells other inmates about his crime though, he makes up stories that he killed some drug dealer….he doesn’t even tell other murderers the truth. He really believes though that she DESERVED that she got and that he did the RIGHT thing since she had RATTED HIM OUT to the cops for the petty crimes the two of them had committed together. Credit card fraud, etc. not exactly robbing a bank and killing a teller, just money crimes. Sure it was illegal and sure it was a felony for him at least as he was on parole, but to KILL HER FOR THAT?

I also turned him in to the law for a robbery when he was 17, and he had mentioned that “betrayal” time and time again even when we were “on friendly terms” that “you shouldn’t have done that.” When I would ask him “What should I have done to try to keep you from doing those things?” His answer was always “I don’t know, but turning me in wasn’t it.”

Of course the times he had robbed his family members, stolen from us, taken our vehicles to commit crimes, etc. we were never allowed to bring that “old stuff” up.

His expectation that we (and everyone else) should show him “unconditional love”—i.e. put up with whatever he did to us or anyone else and still trust him and cater to his needs, desires, or wants without question–was his idea of how we should behave.

silvermoon

One of the profiles reads with so many of the same words….The characteristics appear to speak for themselves, don’t they?

I will not question you about past events in your life, or criticize them. I believe in unconditional love and fidelity.

Go figure, He’d been married for three weeks at the time this was posted….

Ox Drover

Yes, “unconditional love” as defined by the P seems to be that you DON’T QUESTION THEM OR THEIR ACTIONS OR EXPECT ANYTHING OUT OF THEM.

I have a copy of a letter my P son wrote to a minister friend of ours telling him how we were not “christians” because we didn’t give him UN-conditional Love. i.e. love him even if he tried to KILL US! And, not bring up those nasty past events like robbery, murder, lies, threats,, and so on….oh, well, he’s right, I do NOT love him unconditionally. I don’t love ANYone 100% unconditionally. I have conditions on my feelings. If people treat me abusively I retract my affections and trust. DUH! Just sorry it took me so long to figure it out.

Buttons

OxD……same with me. I don’t have “conditions,” per se, but I have a limit to what I will accept as reasonable.

OxD, you’re a source of strength, courage, and incredible wisdom. God bless you.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

silver – ahh, spath speak: ‘I will not question you about past events in your life, or criticize them. I believe in unconditional love and fidelity. ‘

i am wishing you a happy mother’s day silver, you have the nature Ingraine; and i feel uplifted by it often.

this day is better. i have had to back away from dealing with my friends for a bit; i am still too rankled. i walked home last night; first time since i was mugged. i’ve missed it so much. i will do the same tonight, as the bus doesn’t run on sunday nights.

i didn’t call my mom. i need someone to help me with it, and i am going to ask my neighbour if she will make the call for me this week. i don’t want to break the nc with my dad. but maybe it would be okay – i don’t have to talk to him, just ask for her. still, i know it will unsettle me.

i turned compost into part of my garden today, and planted spinach and carrots. i hope there will be a seed swap next weekend and i can get some free seeds. i will have to look and see what i have to offer…erggh, all my gardening stuff is on the back of my old truck – at my parent’s place. chit.

best,
one step

one/joy_step_at_a_time

i’ll just haul this up for you 😉

silvermoon

CORRECTED LYRICS TO GARDENING
By Dillon Bustin

Now well and truly corrected by the author, here are the lyrics to Gardening as they appeared on the original liner notes:

oh my friends it’s springtime again
buds are swelling on every limb
the peepers do call small birds do sing
and my thoughts return to gardening

gardening is a very fine art
bear well in mind before you start
lay up your ax your saw blade also
and take down your spade your rake and your hoe

polish your hoe till the blade it does shine
likewise your rake and sharpen each tine
dress up your spade with a light coat of oil
then you are ready to prepare your soil

prepare your soil with a good free will
bear well in mind what you may till
some compost and lime are all that you need
then you are ready to plant your seed

plant your seed but none too soon
bear well in mind the phase of the moon
set out the fruit the roots and the grain
and hope it all sprouts in the cool early rain

if the cool early rain don’t drown you out
the first hot spell will bring on a drought
the midsummer sun is hotter than hell
mulch down your rows and you water them well

water them well and thin them also
beware of weeds and beetles and crows
if you work every day then little is lost
just hope it all ripens before the first frost

the first frost will come as sure as sin
then you must hasten to gather it in
by cartloads and bushels by pecks and quarts
your harvest of fruit and grain of all sorts

all sorts of peaches and apples and wheat
oats and rye and strawberries sweet
squashes and melons with colorful rinds
your harvest of vegetable roots of all kinds

all kinds of turnips and carrots and beets
potatoes tomatoes and strong smelling leeks
cabbage and corn the beans and the hay
then you must carefully store it away

away in the cellars and lofts and bins
make cider and kraut pickles and gin
if you do it all well then you’ll not go wrong
you will have plenty all winter long

all winter long while the cold winds blow
take down your saw and wood cutting go
if you’re well fed and warm be well content then
till warm weather comes and you say to your friends

oh my friends it’s springtime again
buds are swelling on every limb
the peepers do call small birds do sing
and my thoughts return to gardening

one/joy_step_at_a_time

well, just lovely….going to post it elsewhere.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

can’t find dillon bustin singing this; his site only has lyrics.

silvermoon

Glad you liked.

Enough for one day.
Thinking about this article is sobering.
It provokes many, many questions.

So very few to which I may have the answer and which may in deed may be my best fortune…

one/joy_step_at_a_time

silver – i found myslef about to sign up for yet more access to evidence yesterday…and i stopped. i don’t need more.

now i need sanity. and to get my life further from the edge. and finish what i started.

i need to find a sacred reverence for the ‘time it takes’.

and to feel the edges of ‘enough’ with my fingertips…so that i can begin to free myself, truly.

touch the earth. the story goes that the buddha touched the earth at enlightenment, so that the earth could bare witness. ground. earth/ axis/heartwood/the distant shore.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

goodnite.

silvermoon

Yes, one. That place. I don’t need more. I need free, over, relief and next step.

Exactly.

cava

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn’t.
Mark Twain

Buttons

One_step……..GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!! For me, it became a compulsion to “prove” just what a dirty, rotten catfish the ex spath and spath son really were. At one point, it went beyond compulsion and became an obsession – “…it couldn’t have been THAT bad, could it? Didn’t we laugh? Didn’t we have any good times?” Yes, it was that bad – the laughter was a diversion from the pain – we did not have any “good times,” except in fantasy.

{{{One_step}}} GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!

silvermoon

Buttons,

Its a necessary step in the process.

To see for one’s self what is real requires doing the homework. I think we see that over and over because denial is a part of the grieving and there is nothing to do but work through it.

It comes to me that it is why the obsession to prove what is or isn’t real. And beyond that,, the obsession is a way of seeking out the firm ground to stand on.

Taking the information about what a SPATH is and working it back and forth through what happened. Its a unique process.

I can’t say it doesn’t leave me very concerned about what I can not see because I believe there is much I can neither see nor access, but of it all, what is true is that I ran across something that was NOT what is claimed to be and what in the light of reality it turns out to be is not at all enchanting, but indeed a sobering turn of humanity.

The fantasy can be very compelling. But, what is real will always win.

We just can’t change the equation: What is, is.

Buttons

Exactly, Silvermoon!!!!!!! What a superb way of putting it all in a nutshell!

Hopeforjoy

This question about why psychopaths kill, is difficult to think about. Next week, when I drop the bomb about the divorce, is what I’m really dreading. He does have a hint of violence that he keeps carefully hidden. I know he was a golden gloves (boxing) when he was younger and a bouncer at a bar. He liked to fight when he played hockey and even threatened to take on a whole team when he went he their locker room. (a friend pulled him out of the locker room). He likes to hunt and has guns in the house, he has never actually treatened to kill me although he has treatened to take the kids away.

Yes, this article scares me greatly. Maybe I’m just a sissy.

silvermoon

A letter to a friend in the legal profession:

I was inspired by our conversation that so much of the work which was done for women around the time we were in school and since then remains incomplete if the burden of bigamy is shouldered by the victims.

The reason it concerns me so very much is that most bigamists, are psychopaths. Some apparently are people who really don’t understand whether they are divorced, but in my case, there were so many lies both of commission and of omission, that I seriously doubt it. And based on what I can find out is true about all that and have evaluated by reputable therapists/psychologists, it is very likely that I came across a psychopath.

These individuals lack the ability to experience empathy or remorse. They represent up to as much as 4% of the total population and their antics and destructive behaviors can be found in horror stories pervasive in the family court system although it is rare that the judiciary really understand enough about the Cluster B Personality to be able to see through what they do. And what they can do is break all the rules without second thought. These cases in extreme,end up in the media and the consequences of them are unspeakable.There are many, more cases where the devastation is huge, but perhaps not so widely disclosed.

In our city alone, there could be as many as 20,000 of them. They very typically stalk their targets online although that is not the single MOD for them. And there are women with the genetic as well. It is a personality disorder that is hardwired and unsalvageable by therapy or medication. They make up as much as 25% of our prison population. And if you look at repeat offenders, the percentage gets bigger.

Its just plain scary and it is,I think, an advocacy on going in the legal system where women and children are so often the victim. In my case alone, I found the response that “a jury here would not convict for bigamy because they’d think that any man with two wives is punished enough” was so incredibly lacking in the comprehension of what a psychopath really is, how dangerous these individuals can be and how this level of understanding leads very directly to very sad stories.

It is stunning to me that DA’s would not find these cases to be of magnitude in protecting society at large from the genetic issue that produced people like Ted Bundy and Casey Anthony. Stunning.

Buttons

{{{{{HOPEFORJOY}}}}} Have you developed a plan as to how/when/where you are going to demand a divorce? Has your attorney or counselor/therapist advised you on this?

I can only offer suggestions based upon my own experiences, and I wish that I had known these things before I left my own home:
* Make sure that the children are elsewhere in a safe, undisclosed place
* Alert teachers, employers, TRUSTED friends and family about your decision, beforehand – disclose your concerns about possible violence
* If there are firearms in the house, REMOVE THEM and the ammo, immediately, take them to the Police Station, and tell them that you wish to surrender them to the Police until the Courts have determined their disposition
* If you will be staying in the home, pack a bag for him with items and clothing that he will need for about 4 days – DO NOT let him rummage through the house packing up this and that….let the Courts do their job by distributing the property
* CHANGE ALL OF THE LOCKS after he goes to work and once the children are out of the house, make sure that the house is as secure as possible (windows, basement, garage, etc., all shut and locked)
* Meet in a neutral location – preferably, in a place where there are many people (cafe, for instance) and drop the bomb in a quiet corner, but in full view of witnesses WITHOUT FUSS
* Do not allow the spath to make you feel compelled to provide an explanation or defense of your choice – after the bombshell, spath may communicate via your attorney to schedule visitation, child support, and to collect the rest of his belongings under the strict supervision of a Sheriff or Police Officer

God bless you, Hopeforjoy, and stay vigilant and cautious! Brightest blessings!!!

Buttons

Silvermoon, precisely who told you that bigamy wouldn’t be heard in your court because any man with 2 wives has suffered enough? I’m not being a smartass, but I’m curious about precisely WHO told you that?

Bless your heart, Silvermoon! I’d be all over that like white on rice! I’m one of those people who would slip my proverbial cog and take that as a downright double-dog-dare!

Hopeforjoy

Buttons,

I plan on telling him at a psychologists office on Tuesday. Do you think I am over re-acting if I remove the guns, etc.? This really scares me. I have asked him to leave before and he won’t leave. I’m hoping that the psychologist will help with this because he just DOESN’T GET IT!!!

I really, really want him gone, for myself and my daughter.

I’ve been told to expect the unexpected, having him in the home everyday after I drop the bomb, talk about anxiety! He took an early retirement so he doesn’t work. Please help! Okay, I’m not going to stress. Deep breath.

Thanks for the advice. The children will be at school. I feel like a heartless bitc* if I lock him out, my son will be confused because he doesn’t know whats going on. ARRRGGGGGG

silvermoon

Buttons, my attorney told me that. And an assistant DA clarified for me that the burden of pursuing the case is entirely mine.

I have asked repeatedly about the history which I am told but can not find confirmation for that this man’s history includes mansalughter and that out of four previous wives, three left with PTO’s and am being played off as a silly girl. Well, they laughed at Nelson too. Until Trafalgar!

White on rice? Stink on S*.* is more like it. Our state has some backward notions……And I am very serious about seeing them changed because we also have in our legal history some of the land mark bigamy cases.

Yes, it makes me furious.

Buttons

Hopeforjoy……..FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE……..get rid of the guns!!!!!!!! I’m not attempting or intending to generate more anxiety or tension, Hope, but this is something that I would beg you to be proactive about. Spaths are notorious for hoarding weapons, and mine used to threaten me and our children all the time.

It’s not “heartless” to lock him out, Hope – do you really want this Thing in your home after he’s been put on notice? Imagine what he’ll be telling your daughter when he has the opportunity! Do you truly believe that he is above “doing anything” to her, as well? The spath should never, ever, EVER be underestimated. They will do and say whatever they can to maintain possession of their properties: cars, houses, stocks, dependents…….And, he’ll just have to go out and get a job, won’t he? What did he think he was going to do? Just skate through the rest of his life with a CHILD to raise and support?

As for your child – it may be a good idea to discuss the situation with your child via a psychologist.

kim frederick

Hi Oxy. I read your question as to why more of us were not responding to this article, and had to stop and think. I did read it on Saturday, but you’re right. I didn’t respond. So, why?

For one thing this article brings discomfort. I have been in three very abusive relationships. When I was 21 and seperated from my first husband, he came to my house with a loaded gun. A friend was there with me and called the police. He was arrested…I haven’t thought about that in a very long time, and don’t think I took it as seriously as I should have.

My 2 husband almost strangled me to death…I honestly thought I was going to die…did I leave? No.

Then, Years later, he grabbed a handfull of my hair on the back of my head and pushed it down over the top of a red hot burner, saying he was gonna ruin my face.

At one time we had gone for a hike and whike we were standing at the edge of a cliff, he stepped back, and sort of walked around behind me, and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I immeadiatly turned around to see his eyes…
I’m not kidding, it was one of those gut moments….but of course later I told myself, “nahh. couldn’t be”. I still kind of question it.

My last relationship was everybit as abusive with me suffering a broken rib, and a couple black-eyes, but by this time I was abusive too. (not easy to admit that) and my x was sooo out of control, that I readily admit trying to control him. I also admit to being aware of having a desire to punish him.

I don’t think anything I ever did phased him in any way, however. He came and went as he pleased, had huge entitlement issues, stayed drunk 24/7, played and played and played. I WAS SO ANGRY most of the time.

So this article brings up some pretty unpleasant and powerfull feeling for me.

I hate having to admit I was abusive…want to justify it…but isn’t that what abusers do?

The only way I can deal with all that, is to look behind the behavior at what the hell was making me tick.

I must have been terrified of being alone…so afraid of abandonment that I thought staying in these violent and explosive relationships was better than leaving and being on my own.

I haven’t thought a lot about the abuse in the first two for a long time….but am still pondering the dynamics of the last one.

So, Oxy, I guess I didn’t comment on this article because I did’nt want to remember, and didn’t want to look at myself.

Hope you’re doing well. I am baby-stting my two youngest GC every day, now, so am not posting as much. At one and a half, and two and a half, they keep me jumping.
They sure are cute though. 🙂

Buttons

Oh, Silvermoon……..that’s HORRIBLE. Are you in US or abroad? I know nothing about international laws with regard to bigamy, but a private investigator might not be a bad consideration, at this point. As far as I know (and, I could very well be wrong about this), bigamy is illegal in every State of the US.

I am so sorry about your circumstances, Silvermoon. ABC Good Morning America just ran a story THIS MORNING about a woman who found out that her podiatrist husband was a bigamist with 2 other wives besides her. She gave up her Doctorate to be his supportive wife and stay-at-home-mom. And, she was maniuplated just like every other Survivor on this site!

ABC Good Morning America wants feedback and/or stories about people who have survived unknown bigamist situations. You might want to consider that, as well.

God bless you, Silver – brightest blessings on you.

Buttons

{{{{{{{{{Kim}}}}}}}}} I resorted to abuse, as well – it seemed to be the only thing that would stop the ex spath in his tracks, even if it was just for 5 minutes. For those scant 5 minutes, I actually felt as if I had some level of control over the situation, myself, and the ex spath.

Yes, these memories are unpleasant, but they are a part of who I am and where I once was.

Brightest blessings on you, Kim, and there are many hands around you to help you along your healing path.

silvermoon

Buttons, I am in the same state you are if I remember correctly.
do you remember which one ran the story, I think I’d have to contact the right person. I looked at the website and I couldn’t find the story you refer to or how to follow up.

kim frederick

Thank-you so much Buttons.

My daughter will be home soon and I have a few chores to do before she gets home, but I will catch up with you later.

silvermoon

Kim,

Hugs.
We are right here. And because of the courage that women like you have to tell these stories, it may be the greatest fortune I have known to learn from listening to your wisdom and experience.

You are the Hierophant here.

I am so DAMN Glad to share this place with you and to know that you are not in THAT place anymore.

Buttons

Silvermoon, I’m in PA. It may be well worth it to look into hiring a PI. And, the DA sounds like a jackass. I ran into the same type of DA for our County when I reported being stalked by a former business partner.

WTF is WRONG with these people to just feel that it’s appropriate to discourage someone from pressing criminal charges???? The burden of proof is NOT on you, Silvermoon – if the man has committed a crime, the burden of proof is on the State, and that’s where our tax dollars go.

Here is the link to the Good Morning America story, this morning:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/woman-devastated-discovery-husband-wives/story?id=10602081
Silver, if you contact these people and let them know YOUR story……they have journalists who are well-versed in investigative techniques and can find out ANYthing relating to your situation.

{{{hugs}}}

Rosa

If they can’t/don’t kill you physically, they will kill your soul.

I believe they ALL fantasize and enjoy the idea of killing, even though only a fraction of them actually follow through on the physical act itself.

My mom’s boyfriend is a great example, I think.
He’s obsessed with all of those criminal shows on TV, like CSI and forensic files….anything that has to do with investigating a murder.

What really troubles me is that the last woman he dated died suddenly.
First, the explanation was that she choked on a piece of meat, and then it was stated that she had a heart condition. Anyway, sketchy details around this guy’s last girlfriend.
So, now that he’s dating my mom, you can understand my concerns.

He and my mom rented a movie the other night, and my mom calls me the next morning, telling me about this movie. She says, “And at the end of this movie, the husband blew his wife’s head off!!”
I asked her, “Why would you watch a movie like that?”

I’ve always questioned this man’s choice of movies to my mother, because they are ALWAYS filled with blood and violence, especially against women.

My mother laughs at me and says I AM THE ONE who is over reacting and reading too many books about “psychology”.

Then, yesterday he’s standing up in the front of church at the alter with his cross around his neck, laying his hands on people, and “praying” for them as they go through a difficult time.
He does this every week, and he’s very active at church.
He has a soft, soothing voice. So he’s great at comforting other members of the congregation with words.

It just does not add up.
This is only one example. There are plenty of other things this guy has done that have been shady, like wanting to get married after a few weeks of dating, and wanting to use my mom’s credit card.

Who knows, maybe I am over-reacting, but my gut says it does not add up.
I go with my gut….the more I watch him, the more I know I’m right.

Buttons

{{{{{{{ROSA}}}}}}}} Oh, my gosh…….this guy sounds like Jim Jones. You are so wise to go with your gut instincts, girl. All I can do is shake my head – so many women (and, a few men) will tolerate ANYthing to avoid being “lonely.” I would rather be alone in this world than living with spath, ever again. I can talk to the birds, the plants, the animals, and rocks and have a better interaction than I ever had with the ex spath or the spath son.

Buttons

And, Rosa, you are spot-the-heck-ON when you mention that they will kill whatever they can with whatever they can use to do it. Holy cow…….

silvermoon

Buttons,
Thanks for the abc tip. I thought you might be further south, sorry.
Well life in the country, its grand most of the time anyway.
Thanks again.

bulletproof

Ox Drover

oooh I hear you when you say:

I do NOT love him unconditionally. I don’t love ANYone 100% unconditionally. I have conditions on my feelings. If people treat me abusively I retract my affections and trust. DUH! Just sorry it took me so long to figure it out.

oh yes and yes and yes!

Ox Drover

Dear Rosa!!!! [email protected]!!! Sounds really like you are reading this guy correctly, there IS something wrong with this picture.

Especially when you say “wants to use her credit card”–wants to “get married” etc.

It is obvious though that your mom is already hooked! Love-bombed so that she cannot “see”—–see that this guy is a wolf in sheep’s clothing! Ah, how they use religion and “love” to work their wiles!

I wish I could tell you what to say to your mother to get her to see the truth, but the problem is, she at this point does NOT WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH, it would ruin her fantasy, so all you can do I think is to stay close enough to her to be there to picki up the pieces when his mask drops. You’ve got the experience in doing this, and looks like you will have to use the experience you have with your brother to be there beside your mother. I’m so sorry this is coming down on you now! (((hugs)))) and my prayers!

Rosa

OxDrover:

This man has been in the picture for quite a while now.
So he’s not a new boyfriend.

His mask has already dropped a few times and I’ve pointed it out to her each time.
I get dismissed. She doesn’t want to hear about it.
I’ve also done a good job of pointing out the similarities between her boyfriend and my brother’s wife (her daughter-in-law).
She refuses to see it.

The good news is she’s never going to marry him.
She says that my dad was the love of her life, and she will never marry again. And I believe her.
So, at least I don’t have to worry about a marraige, and him having control over her affairs later in life.

But, she fails to understand that just having this guy around for companionship is toxic and unhealthy.

It’s chilling that 2 people (Mom & me) can look at the same person, and have 2 totally different points of view of him.
My Mom is emotionally invested, and I am NOT.

That’s what is scary about these sociopaths, and it’s how they get away with SO MUCH.

So, she sees her boyfriend’s church involvement as the real him.
I see his church involvement as an attempt at “Image Control” on his part….and he’s laying it on a little too thick, if you ask me.

She buys into it, and I do not.

Bottom line…..his church involvement is NOT consistent with what I believe to be his true personality, or the way he’s living the rest of his life.

Ox Drover

Rosa, that’s what happens when we allow them to get us emotionally involved—-we tune out logically. That is what your mom is doing. Just as your brother is doing with his P-wife, and nothing you can do with logic or even EVIDENCE is going to change their invested denial. It is tough when we KNOW and SEE and they are blinded to it. I thought I could convince my egg donor but she denied every bit of evidence until they went to jail….but then she continued to deny P-son was not only IN it, but WAS IT! Oh, well, at least your mom isn’t persecuting you, but I know it must be hard not to open your mouth! ((((hugs))))

pollyannanomore

I am quite sure my ex’s motive was murder by suicide – he wanted to drive me to the point that I would take my own life so then he would be backed up in saying “See? I told you she was f***ing crazy!” I have no doubts about it at all.

With his lack of conscience, he is definitely capable or murder. All people are to some extend but most of us have the voice of conscience that stops us doing things that are wrong. The spath with no conscience or guilt and no impulse control or empathy is doubly likely to murder and not feel bad about it. I read some of Robert Hare’s interviews with murderers and it made my blood run cold to see their words. Even in murder most of them had the audacity to blame the victim.

I undertook a mosaic risk assessment and was horrified to see that my score was 8 out of 10 for emminent danger. I had no idea when I was with him just how dangerous he is. He is now engaged in character assassination against me so even though I have no contact I still get to be manipulated again. Other people are too dumb to question what he says and stupidly believe his version as gospel truth. I have no wish to look like a mad woman or a scorned and jealous woman so I just have to live with the fact that many people in my city erroneously believe I am a twisted bitch and the abuser of him. After suffering years of abuse from him this is the ultimate betrayal. I cannot be free to be me in this city with so many lies about me flying around the place.

I started to defend myself towards the end. I don’t call it abuse because I was severely provoked by being abused in so many ways for years. I actually told him I thought about murdering him – after that he was very suspicious of any food I made him lol

I think if he had made up his mind to off me then he would have made it look like an accident. Mine was not involved with guns so I doubt that would have been the method. I truly believe he wanted me to do it so he ended up with no blood on his hands.

Oh and Oxy – I haven’t commented on this because I only just read it!

Ox Drover

Dear Polly,

I do not doubt your take on the situation at all. I am also known in some circles as “crazy” by those that know only the “angelic” side of my egg donor. Fortunately, no one who knew him would believe a word my sperm donor P said about me. His family told him in no uncertain terms that he would not be allowed to discuss me with them, that they did not want to hear it. At that point he decided not to visit them. LOL They knew the REAL HIM, so weren’t interested in anything he said. LOL

The people that believe egg donor’s twist on things are people who also knew me so I am sorry that none of them ever came to me to talk about it, but I am sure some believe one thing, and others another, but just stay out of the fray, and that’s okay. It used to upset me quite a bit but now I really don’t care so much. The ones I really care about know the truth and the rest of them, SO WHAT?

As long as I know who and what I am, the rest doesn’t matter. I did the best I could in the situation I was in so that’s all a jack ass can do is the best he can!~

Too many times I think we worry WAY too much about what others think of us. I realize a reputation is important but it is NOT THE END ALL AND BE ALL OF LIFE! It is with my egg donor! There is no substance to her, so the IMAGE is ALL important. What the neighbors think is all that matters.

Actually I think now that what I AM is much more important than what shallow people without the facts think of me. I only have to look myself in the mirror and my God in the face on judgment day! So why worry about the rest!!!!!

kim frederick

Thank you, Silver…that’s quite a compliment….I’ve often seen myself as the Heirophant reversed….that is to say, unconventional and a little bit of a maverick…but I love the Heirophants wisdom. Thanks.

silvermoon

OxY?
Who can tell me about when, why and how psyche evals are requested and completed in USBOP????

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