UPDATED FOR 2023. Lovefraud received the following observation from a reader who posts as “new_day.” She notes that with a sociopath, words and actions can both be lies.
I just had an A-ha moment while scrolling through Facebook. I read a post that said, “Words may lie but actions always tell the truth.” The problem with understanding how sociopathic behavior is so damaging to others, is that we have to realize even Actions can Lie!!
Those who are hollow of any truth or love are masters of acting! They can entertain us into thinking they are the good and loving soul mate that we were blessed to meet. In reality, it was all love fraud.
Somehow, I am expected to move forward with the inability to trust another person’s actions again.
This is a very astute observation. Anyone who has tangled with a sociopath knows that they lie. They tell big lies, small lies, outrageous lies and stupid lies. Sociopaths lie while looking deep into your eyes and clasping your hand in theirs, promising that they will never lie to you.
Unfortunately, humans are lousy lie detectors, especially in the beginning of a romantic involvement, as the liar is showering you with affection. When the sweet words include, “I’ll love you forever,” and “You’re the one I’ve been waiting for all my life,” well, who doesn’t want to believe them?
Words and actions
The standard advice regarding sociopaths is to ignore their words and pay attention to their actions. But as this reader, new_day, points out, sometimes you can’t pay attention to their actions either.
The actions of a sociopath may lie as well. They may take you out for a romantic dinner, play with your kids, help you take care of your house, buy flowers for your mother.
Usually, when someone engages in behaviors like these it’s because they want to show that they care about you. When sociopaths take what seems to be caring, thoughtful actions, they have an agenda. They are behaving in a socially appropriate way because they are reeling you in for future exploitation, or creating an image that will benefit them in other exploitation projects.
Of course, you know this now, most likely after learning the hard way. So what does all this mean for your recovery? How do you move forward in life, and build new relationships, when you feel like you can’t trust people’s words — and you can’t trust people’s actions.
You learn to trust yourself.
And how do you do that? By focusing on your own healing.
Trusting your internal signals
If you’re like most people who became involved with sociopaths, you knew in your gut, from early in the involvement, that something was wrong. The story didn’t add up; you had a bad feeling; you sensed something was amiss. But you didn’t listen to yourself.
The biggest reason why you didn’t trust your instincts was probably because you didn’t know that sociopaths existed. You didn’t know that people live among us who look just like us, but have no heart, no conscience and no remorse.
Read more: Sociopaths say you’re crazy — and you believe them
Now you know. You have the empirical knowledge to make sense of those internal warnings, if you ever feel them again.
But when you have a general mistrust of everyone, how do you differentiate between legitimate internal warnings and imagined internal warnings ?
Value in healing
That’s where the healing comes in. With healing, you become comfortable with the concept that while most people are basically good, a certain segment of the population is not.
With healing, you learn to value yourself. You come to understand that you’re the one who knows what is best for you. You feel comfortable walking away from anyone or anything that doesn’t feel right, without waiting for objective proof that the situation is bad.
Now, even a good, solid recovery may not totally prevent sociopaths from coming into your life. There are simply too many of them among us, they’re everywhere, and they’re very, very good at their acts. So they may fool you for awhile.
But with recovery, they won’t fool you for long. And when you know that with sociopaths words and actions can both be lies, and your instincts start emitting warnings, you’ll know what they mean.
Here’s how I define success in spotting sociopaths: It’s not keeping them out of your life entirely. It’s getting them out of your life before they do serious damage.
When you learn to trust yourself, you can achieve that success.
Learn more: Survivor’s guide to healthy people and healthy relationships
Lovefraud originally posted this article on Feb. 8, 2016.
The narcissist and the ‘Drama Triangle’
Your reader is dead on. My spath always seemed so caring and loving and generous to the children, that is on the rare occasion when he was around. I would say to myself he’s a monster to me (love bombing days long over) but look at him with the kids. There’d he would be chasing my young son around the yard with the fervor of a 5 year old. I would watch wishing I could tap into that part of his ‘personality’. My light bulb moment when I saw clearly his motivation of ‘divide and conquer’ was when I sent my daughter out with a bucket to wash the car. My daughter had been cooped up inside the house for days due to bad weather. However, she couldn’t get out of her funk in that beautiful sunny day. So I sent her outside to do a chore knowing she would feel better. She wasn’t outside for two minutes when the spath came home. I heard her say to him, “mom said I had to wash the car. I think she thinks I’ll feel better.” Then I saw her take money from him, she picked up the bucket and rags and came into the house. I said to her you couldn’t be done. She said, “Dad gave me money to go to the car wash.” Now I could see clearly he didn’t give a rats ass about her. He didn’t care about her funk, about teaching her a work ethic, only undermining me. He knew what he was doing that I would never give a teenager $15 for a car wash. I saw him for what he was that day. But that was the theme, to undermine me by looking so generous. That’s how he got himself three kids with divide and conquer behavior.
This is SO my SP son…
Throwing his kids up in the air…chasing them around…but none of it is genuine.
He always carefully looks to see who is watching (making sure that at least someone is) while he plays the ‘perfect’ father.
Hah.
Their ACTIONS even lie!!!
Bev,
It’s not genuine. Mine threw me off because he didn’t appear to need an “audience”. Now I’m seeing he did have an audience-ME. I could be sick, upset, you name it he would never say, “What’s the matter”. But when it came to the kids if one of them would be sulking he would make it such at production to say, “What’s the matter” to them, always right in front of me. To show me he knew the words, actions…, he wanted me to see what he was. I realize now that I was the MAIN target. His goal from the get go was to destroy me. And if he had to generous, playful with the kids, extra kind to people at work, extra kind to people I knew-there was an agenda-to get me.
For sure, it’s not genuine becomingstrong.
My son always looked at ME when he was pretending to be human.
I think that he has now discarded me (thank goodnes!!), as he never tries to contact me any more, now that I know the truth about him.
I do, however, sense that he would still like to destroy me in whatever way that he can. All he has in that department at the moment, is playing his father (my husband) for a fool, and then my husband and I fighting about things… but even that seems to have dropped off. My husband seems to not be getting sucked into HIS bullshit as easily any more.
I can see my son doing the same thing as your ex…saying ‘what’s the matter’ to his children, or at least his son (he does not seem to ‘like’ his 3 year old daughter I think because she isn’t too fond of him either…she sees things in HIM I believe, that make her uncomfortable)…but never saying anything nice nor having any real concern for his ex wife…
Bev,
Your granddaughter knows something’s wrong with him. My daughter, kept away from the spath and when forced to deal with him, i.e.: visitation, she had melt down. Good that your husband is seeing the light. One in road is as though that person is sitting in your living room. All avenues need to be closed. And yes they can destroy you directly or indirectly it has the same effect on them. If he can destroy your marriage, your relationship with your grandchildren, or just plain wear you down all the better. You sound like your his main target. I would consider disavowing him in front of your daughter in law. That way he knows he can’t use you to hurt her, i.e.: sending him an email directing at him but cc’ing her. Not a blind cc. Saying, “I would never go to dinner with you. I would never meet your new girlfriend. You are trying to create doubt in someone who does not doubt me. I am writing this to you to strip you down in front of her. And I’m not going to tolerate you’re lying about me.” Just a suggestion.
That sounds like the perfect thing!
I had written HIM a letter a few months back, that I never sent to him. My mother actually thought that I should rethink sending it as it may draw retaliation from him. I did send it to my daughter in law, though…it was full of things like how I believed nothing that came out of his mouth…and that he should not be a father…that he destroyed his marriage, not anyone else…(as he had pleaded with my husband and I after they split up, to believe him that it was all my DIL’s fault…perhaps, but only in that she had realized who he is, did the smart thing, and got the hell out).
I almost hope that she somehow sent it to him…I really am not afraid of retaliation…sometimes I think I fear him, but really, I think that I am not afraid of him at all. He is just a pathetic little worm, now, in my eyes.
Yes, he seems to dislike his poor little daughter (he had pics of his son on his FB page, but not his daughter) and I am sure that it is because he cannot manipulate her to jump through his false hoops the way he can his son. His poor son humors the piss out of him, I think, just to not anger him.
Thank you for that info. Like I said, I am hoping that HE somehow read the letter that I had written to send to him, but ended up sending to her. It may be almost the same thing that you are telling me to do! And…I agree!!
You are wonderful in your insight 🙂 How I love your personality!!
Bev,
Don’t know why there’s no “Reply” button under your last comment, so I’ll post where I can. You’ve been a huge support to me. I could not wrap my head around the utter destruction. My friends support me but few understand what I’ve had to do. They don’t totally understand that I cannot have any inroads or I just might as well stay in that “marriage” (slavery). I’ve had to educate them on this. There will never be a day that we can be a civilized divorced couple. exchanging children to and fro. Hell NO! I’m going to be gone, poof, when this divorce is done.
Batten down the hatches and then brace yourselves for the storm. I like the idea of your letter and that you sent it to your daughter in law. If he tries to invoke your name again with your daughter in law I’d stop him right there with another letter. Yes there is retaliation, retribution, blood to be paid, but he’s drawing less of it with your allies, but your allies need to do their part. He’s working the back door by trying to get two birds with one stone. You and your daughter in law. If he can get to her and the kids, he gets you, it’s a twofer.
I’m beginning to think mine is becoming psychotic. He’s full blown psychopath, the narcissim is gone. I wonder what is his next move? I can see a whole host of problems he will create to get me (getting himself is the same as getting me, we are now one in the same person). If he get’s arrested in his mind he’s hurt me, in that I have to the kids back who would blame me and hate me forever. If he loses his job, it hurts me. I’m having to prepare for the unthinkable/predictable to get my divorce. He told the judge he is willing to go to prison on Friday. It’s a race, get my divorce and get out. The longer he drags it out the more opportunities he has to destroy me.
And YOU have been a huge support to me as well! I never thought that I would be a help to anyone…perhaps you felt the same, but here we are…HELPING EACH OTHER…and maybe others too :).
The last email my DIL sent me said sort of what you are saying…that my son was ‘imploding’. She forwarded a ‘scree grab’ from my son’s FB page where he had a long rant / tirade about the state of marriage and fidelity in our society today…he sounded like a complete idiot! It was so out of character for him. Perhaps, he is getting psychotic. Maybe some spaths are not able to contend with exposure, once it happens and that have a meltdown? Who knows. It might be nice to see him ‘hurt’ just a little bit, like he has hurt so many. He always just seems to slide on to the next thing…
I certainly do know what you you mean about explaining to friends / family about not allowing ANY inroads. My wonderfully understanding mother has learned as much as I have throughout all of this convolution (there’s my favorite word again). We have joined and read this website and I swear, I do not know WHERE we would be without it.
Let’s hope that whatever ploys your ex tries or uses will only backfire to YOUR advantage! Wouldn’t that be so great? Perhaps he is getting sloppy and revealing much too much about himself and what he is. I think that is happening with my son as well.
Please let them slide quietly away to the next drama that does not include us in their cast of characters!!
Sorry for all the typos in this one…I was typing feverishly!
SCREEN GRAB, was what I meant to type.
And THEY have a meltdown, instead of that…
Yikes! 🙂
Bev,
Yes, I will gladly give up my Oscar winning role of pathetic victimized wife to the new prey. What will I do then, without the flying monkeys, destruction, and eternal unhappiness? I just finished strategizing with my friend and we have composed a wonderful email to my spath replete with all the word salad he can sink his teeth into. He’ll be reading and reading this one for a long time wondering what to do. Setting him up in regards to his custody battle he is threatening. Problem is I stayed too long in this marriage. He’s like a voodoo doll. If he pricks the doll it draws blood from me. I would like to hear more about your son and his behavior, both then and now. Your mother sounds great! She gets it.
My friend here asks, “what does Bev say”. I have learned much and have a better understanding of what I need to do. Also, I’m sure your daughter in law appreciates such a bold upfront ally.
OMG…really?
That is very cool!! I love so much that I am helping!! I hope my advice is sound and good…I get kind of crazy at times and really angry at HIM.
The letter that you did sounds great.
We are getting so strong!
I could write a book about me son. It strange, but when I look back upon the past 34 years, it is all so clear.
MY son, mot me son…I am not a Brit…lol!
becomingstrong
My ex did the same type thing, be very loving and caring to others in front of me. It was to let me know that he was that way with those who deserved it but that I did NOT deserve love. He did it with my daughter and I allowed it b/c I didn’t know about sociopaths then. My thinking was, he doesn’t love me, but he loves her and I love her so that mattered more than the disrespect towards me. Little did I know about parental alienation. He was teaching her that I was nothing to respect and it took years for her to stop treating me that way.
He also claimed to have integrity b/c someone told him that they admired that about me. Compliments about me PISSED him off, and this one especially so… he’d NEVER used that word before but after that he campaigned around town that HE has integrity. I agree he had integrity, Weird integrity but it fits the definition – that his words and his deeds matched. Sneaky backstabbing undermining hidden agenda manipulating words that went with Sneaky backstabbing undermining hidden agenda manipulating deeds. NOBODY used the word integrity in the way HE used it. That was his skill, to take words and change the definition… what I’d define as love or cherish or honor or faithfulness was not the same definition he used. ~shaking my head at the nonsense.
Wow…they can really be ‘smart’ can’t they?
They seem to want to CHANGE the people in their lives to ‘think like they do’ or do what they them to do…but, if those people do change at all, or try to do what the SP wants, then the SP does not like THAT either…they cannot seem to accept ANYTHING. Even what they THOUGHT that they wanted?? Does that make sense?
It’s all so weirdly convoluted. I use the word CONVOLUTED a loy when I talk about SPs…
a LOT…sorry for the typo
Bev
Convoluted to explain a sociopath’s logic is spot on.
While going through my divorce, I used to say “in my world” and “in your world” so I could draw a distinction from what ruled in my ex’s world. I simply could not use the words the same way he did.
Very good…I like that.
My son is definitely in his OWN world. The way that he talks and writes don’t even make sense. Word salad and sentence circles. You have to keep shaking the cobwebs out of your head when reading one of his emails…
Convoluted is my go-to from here on in…
🙂
Notwhathesaid ofme,
I feel like I’m reading my story over and over again. Yes, he did it for parental alienation. I was watching my destruction as he ran and ran around the yard with my son. Who knew?
Hi Bev:
I was thinking about your comment…“They seem to want to CHANGE the people in their lives to ’think like they do’ or do what they them to do”but, if those people do change at all, or try to do what the SP wants, then the SP does not like THAT either”they cannot seem to accept ANYTHING. Even what they THOUGHT that they wanted?? Does that make sense?”
I used to feel that if I said the sky was blue, my ex would say “no, it’s light blue”. If I said, “okay, maybe it’s light blue” then he’d say, “No, can’t you see it’s dark blue, how could you ever think it’s light blue…” and on and on it would go.
I don’t think he cared about the color of the sky; instead this was simply a tactic to do one of two things–or even both. He wanted to wear me down, and after doing this hour after hour, day after day, year after year this almost reduced me to “dust.” (Doing this was evidence of how much control he had over me.)
He also wanted to get a reaction out of me right then–to get me to engage him about the frustrating conversation; his gaslighting; whether the sky was really light blue or dark blue, etc. That’s what he wanted–the feeling of control that my reaction or my gradual erosion gave him. It “fueled” him.
There is no end to it because a SP probably doesn’t care if you do “this” or “that”—he/she cares that you react to them. If you look at it that way, perhaps it’s not convoluted at all–it’s just a SP seeking what motivates him/her– a feeling of power by triggering a reaction from you (short-term) or a change in you (long-term).
That’s why no contact or no emotional reaction (grey rock method) are so important. Whatever fuels them, whatever they are looking for”we want them to stop getting it from us.
Yes! Absolutely!
That makes sense.
It all never seems to make any sense with SPs…
So true about your experiences showing how manipulative the actions can be…comparing notes with other victims of my cousin rosemary, it was clear she used lines from tv and movies …acting her way to conning money and fraud. She even lied about volunteer work to seem genuine.
“You learn to trust yourself”…That advise is so powerful.
So often we hear that actions speak louder than words. I have always believed this since my experience with a pathological liar. I just couldn’t connect that part about the actions. I would tell myself that he must be a good person deep inside because of the random nice things that I saw him do. I was fooled. He is an actor who is worthy of an academy award!
My next step will be to trust my internal signals. This will be difficult for me because trusting nobody and watching from the sidelines, is MUCH easier than getting in the game and trusting my own instincts at this point.
One thing I know for sure is that knowledge is power. The more I learn about myself, the stronger I’ll be next time I see the red flags. Thank you, Donna! I feel like my broken pieces are starting to fit together again each time I read your blog.
One night, I was awakened by my phone. It was midnight. It was my guy calling to ask if I had heard anything further regarding the sexual misconduct investigation swirling around him at our job.
I asked him, “Is THAT the reason you’re calling me in the middle of the night, for insider information?”
“No”, he replied, “I was thinking about you.” Uh huh.
“Ya know, babe, I told my therapist all about you, your behavior, everything. She said you’re a sociopath. I believe her”, I told him…
His response?
“Your words don’t match your actions.”
I reckon this would be considered projection.
I’ve since, lived by the law of believing actions, only; not words.
It’s incredible that a person can’t even trust what they see. Even with a narcissist, their actions speak volumes.
And trust me, I dated a narc and a spath at the same time; they ARE different.
Anyway, after reading this, I’m stunned yet again, and by something that happened two years ago.
Wow…
Excellent Post Donna!!
Hi Diane111, just checking to see how you are doing this week 🌴
Hi Jan7, Seems we’ve lost touch the past few weeks. I’ve been on LF during my lunch breaks to remain focused and not lose myself while I work through the lovebombing and gaslighting. Everyone’s posts/comments on here give me strength to get through the craziness. Still not where I want and need to be. Miss our “talks”.
Hi Diane111, so glad you posted again 🙂 Sorry that I have not been on just busy..when I was on you weren’t & vise versa.
It’s great that you are coming here and reading everyones comments that really does help to first know that you are not alone and second it will help open your mind up from all brain washing & mind control your h is doing to you. Also read Donna’s post as they are all excellent.
How have things been in your home with your h?
Hi Jan7,
Totally understand … life IS busy. Not like it was back in the Andy Griffith Show days, just hanging out in front of the barber shop 🙂
I’m on LF most days during my lunch, like I said, just to stay focused and strong. The articles always hit home with me. The comments from other readers … my heart breaks for them. They seem to have it so much worse than me. I pray for all of us.
I’ve read Donna’s books. She’s spot on with all of this. Now if only I could follow her advice. I’ll get there though … I have faith.
Home life has been calm. Mainly because I’ve been trained not to “rock the boat” so as not to upset him. The “walking on eggshells” syndrome. My h loses his patience with the puppy though. I realize a puppy needs to be trained but to hit him hard enough to make him yelp is going too far, at least in my opinion. Last night h was laying on the floor and the puppy jumped on him and scratch his chin. He hit the puppy, the puppy yelps, and gets called a “f*&%#ing dog” and a
“f*&%#er”. Well, he’s a puppy and you’re laying on the floor. The puppy is going to want to play.
I can feel the need to run and escape in every inch of my body … stomach in knots.
My granddaughter and one of her friends spent the night on Saturday. H was working nights, however, he was home for a few hours before going into work. My granddaughter’s friend told her that I “was nice and cute” and h made her nervous. There’s that gut-feeling and intuition … first impression of a 16 year old.
Take care, Jan7 … chat again soon.
Hi Diane111,
Glad you read Donna’s book. I would also highly recommend that you read the book Women who love psychopaths by Sandra Brown. My counselor gave me this book the very first day I met her & described my then h. This book really gave me the fully understanding of the hell I was enduring daily.
Like you & every victim of a sociopath I was walking on egg shells. This is NOT a way to live. Always waiting for him to get angry at the most ridicules thing or at a person he work with. What I realized after I left and educated myself on his disorder was that he intentionally created most of the chaos & drama to control me…he did this for fun & so that I was so dazed and confused that I would not be able to find the door out of the relationship. I was always thinking & rethinking about what he said like a tape recorder that never ended..just rewinding it over and over trying to make since but this is really bad for the brain and it causes anxiety & depression issues.
My anxiety level was through the roof when I was with him…it was awful. In Sandra Brown’s book she explains this aspect.
I remember living in hell…if I cooked dinner there was always something wrong with the dinner…yet he never cooked or went to the grocery store for that matter yet he would tell me I bought the wrong brand of food…if he wanted breakfast he would ask me to cook it for him by telling me that I “made the eggs better then him”…I did not like breakfast but I made if for him then he would complain about it.
When I did the dishes he would complain that I left soap on the pots/pans…which was one bubble…yet he never did the dishes.
Your h only thinks about himself…if he is treating a puppy this way now just wait until the puppy turns into a dog. He will most likely be very abusive towards your dog far worse. Just another reason to leave him.
I remember when I started to feed a stray cat around the house while my ex was away on a “business trip”…the cat and I bonded very quickly even though she was a stray…my ex would give the cat food but the cat never bonded with him…when the cat decided she wanted to move in the home I took her to the vet for a full checkup. The poor little thing had been living outside in the wild for about 4 years the vet said. So when she trusted me fully she moved in and wanted to be every where I was including on my pillow at night…warm & comfy & protected.
My ex complained about it & would toss the poor cat off the bed. Which infuriated me yet I had to keep my cool. I would tell my ex h (then h) that the cat does not know that you dont want her on the pillow she just instinctively knows that is the safest place for her and she feels the most loved and apart of our family by being on the pillow. It was like talking to a wall when we had the conversations. He has no feelings so he can not relate to a stray cat living in the wild afraid trying to survive. Just like you h can not understand that a baby dog just like a baby human does not know how to control his little paws from scratching him.
I am glad you “can feel the need to run & escape”…THIS IS GOOD THINKING!! Just remember to get help from your local domestic abuse center to help you now with an EXIT PLAN out so that you are safe.
I am glad also that you are truly listening to your granddaughters friend and her very perceptive gut instinct. She is accurate about him!! And this is a little eye opener for you. These little moments are the moments that open your mind up from your h brain washing & mind control.
Think about now on when you first met your h and your own reaction to him?
Do you remember when you first met your husband that your gut alarm went off??
If so think about that moment & truly analyst it!
Talk with you tomorrow ðŸˆðŸ•ðŸŒ²Take care!
Hi Jan7,
Thank you once again for your own stories and your insightfulness. Honestly, LF and your comments, and the books, are maintaining my sanity and giving me strength when I start to have doubts because of the love-bombing. You’ve become a good friend to me on here 🙂
ïŠ
A story about my poor puppy ” the night before last, the puppy carried one of the h’s sneaks into the leaving room. Wasn’t chewing on it, just carrying it. H was laying on the floor ” he stood up, yelling at the puppy ” and hit the puppy, not once, but three times on the side of the head, and of course, calling him some choice names. I was sick to my stomach ” still am. Another situation ” another reason ” to get the hell out of there! I didn’t react or say anything as he has conditioned me not to ” “don’t poke a bear with a stick”. I just knew to keep my mouth shut.
Thanks for the information on the book. I will definitely be checking it out. I recently bought Daily Wisdom for Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. The only parts of the book that don’t pertain to me are the couple chapters on children. The other chapters are right on target.
I just want this to be over ” I want to be in a better place, emotionally and mentally. I know I have a long road ahead of me, but like you, I’m struggling with finding that door to escape. I also know that as long as I stay with him, my mind and emotions will always be in turmoil ” anxiety and depression overload. For my health and sanity, I need to leave. I know this. Again, I need to take that step/leap and just go!
Take care, Jan ” talk with you soon ((HUGS))
Hi Diane,
What would you do if a stranger came to your home & did what your husband did to your sweet puppy?
Would you think it was ok?
Sometimes we settle for situation because we feel we have to because they are our “husbands” after all .
But I can tell you what your husband did to your sweet puppy is ABUSE!!! Plain & simple. (read this statement again!!)
If your husband is doing the same to you IT’S ABUSE!!!
Puppy’s do not know that they are not suppose to bring in the shoe to the living room from the closet. No they just think this looks great to play with…how fun is it to have such a happy simple mind like your little happy go lucky puppy 🙂
And for your husband to not only ruin your puppy’s simple joy but to abuse the puppy is absolutely heart wrenching. He should have simply picked up a toy that your puppy was allowed to play with and taken the shoe way without the puppy seeing his switch.
By you having to bit your tongue so that world war III does not break out you are settling in your life. You & your sweet puppy deserve a peaceful environment!! This is normal living!! Normal people are not YELLING!! The are having a conversation.
Glad you got the book Why does he do that? by Lundy…this is an excellent book and you will learn a lot from it. Glad that you are doing your homework to open your mind up to the hell you are living Diane. It’s not easy…but it will be the greatest gift you give to not only you but your family & sweet puppy.
You state ” I’m struggling with finding that door to escape.”
this is normal…but please please please reach out to your local abuse center. See if you can call a counselor once a week to chat this will help you find the door…I promise this will help you. If you can afford to find a counselor that is highly educated in narcissistic abuse and see if they will conduct phone counseling with you.
YOU can also use someone like Steven Hassan of Freedom of mind resource center (see their site under same name) for more info.
YOU ARE NOT ALONE ANYMORE KEEP REACHING OUT FOR HELP DIANE…most abuse victims have been so isolated for so long by their abuser that they forget how to reach out for help. You reached out for help with us here and now is the time to reach out for help with a counselor.
HUGS to you!! 💜 Take care.
Diane, I just wanted to add when you read the book Why does he do that…keep a journal of what you learn in the book and then write down what your husband does that is similar. Writing out your thoughts will also help unchain your brain from your husbands control. Then after reread what you wrote each day.
You will see the pattern of behavior your husband is doing to you to control you. It’s quite shocking when you write it all out on paper.
Hi Diane, Found this on the net about recognizing what is abuse”
“…Recognizing abuse is the first step to getting help
Domestic abuse often escalates from threats and verbal abuse to violence. And while physical injury may be the most obvious danger, the emotional and psychological consequences of domestic abuse are also severe.
Emotionally abusive relationships can destroy your self-worth, lead to anxiety and depression, and make you feel helpless and alone. No one should have to endure this kind of pain—and your first step to breaking free is recognizing that your situation is abusive.
Once you acknowledge the reality of the abusive situation, then you can get the help you need.
Signs of an abusive relationship
There are many signs of an abusive relationship. The most telling sign is fear of your partner. If you feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your partner—constantly watching what you say and do in order to avoid a blow-up—chances are your relationship is unhealthy and abusive.
Other signs that you may be in an abusive relationship include a partner who belittles you or tries to control you, and feelings of self-loathing, helplessness, and desperation.
To determine whether your relationship is abusive, answer the questions below. The more “yes” answers, the more likely it is that you’re in an abusive relationship.
Signs that you’re in an abusive relationship
Your Inner Thoughts and Feelings
Do you:
feel afraid of your partner much of the time?
avoid certain topics out of fear of angering your partner?
believe that you deserve to be hurt or mistreated?
wonder if you’re the one who is crazy?
feel emotionally numb or helpless?
Your Partner’s Belittling Behavior
Does your partner:
humiliate or yell at you?
criticize you and put you down?
treat you so badly that you’re embarrassed for your friends or family to see?
ignore or put down your opinions or accomplishments?
blame you for their own abusive behavior?
see you as property or a sex object, rather than as a person?
Your Partner’s Violent Behavior or Threats
Does your partner:
have a bad and unpredictable temper?
hurt you, or threaten to hurt or kill you?
threaten to take your children away or harm them?
threaten to commit suicide if you leave?
force you to have sex?
destroy your belongings?
Your Partner’s Controlling Behavior
Does your partner:
act excessively jealous and possessive?
control where you go or what you do?
keep you from seeing your friends or family?
limit your access to money, the phone, or the car?
constantly check up on you?
Physical abuse and domestic violence
When people talk about domestic violence, they are often referring to the physical abuse of a spouse or intimate partner. Physical abuse is the use of physical force against someone in a way that injures or endangers that person. Physical assault or battering is a crime, whether it occurs inside or outside of the family. The police have the power and authority to protect you from physical attack.
Sexual abuse is a form of physical abuse
Any situation in which you are forced to participate in unwanted, unsafe, or degrading sexual activity is sexual abuse. Forced sex, even by a spouse or intimate partner with whom you also have consensual sex, is an act of aggression and violence. Furthermore, people whose partners abuse them physically and sexually are at a higher risk of being seriously injured or killed.
It is still abuse if…
The incidents of physical abuse seem minor when compared to those you have read about, seen on television, or heard other women talk about. There isn’t a “better” or “worse” form of physical abuse; you can be severely injured as a result of being pushed, for example.
The incidents of physical abuse have only occurred one or two times in the relationship. Studies indicate that if your spouse/partner has injured you once, it is likely he will continue to physically assault you.
The physical assaults stopped when you became passive and gave up your right to express yourself as you desire, to move about freely and see others, and to make decisions. It is not a victory if you have to give up your rights as a person and a partner in exchange for not being assaulted!
There has not been any physical violence. Many women are emotionally and verbally assaulted. This can be as equally frightening and is often more confusing to try to understand.
Source: Breaking the Silence Handbook “
Hi Jan7,
Thank you for your time and your patience in helping me through this. What you write/post is extremely mind-opening for me … so much I’ve never thought of. I just can’t believe all of this is real … and happening to me. Not that I’m a saint or someone special that bad things shouldn’t happen to me, but you understand what I’m trying to say.
There’s been several other situations which have happened since I’ve last posted which, if I wasn’t convinced before that I needed to leave, I am convinced now. 100%. He is a very cruel and mean-spirited individual with an unpredictable temper. And just like you experienced, my anxiety is through the roof. Where I am walking on egg shells for me, I’m now walking on egg shells for my puppy too. It’s crazy and messed-up!
Thank you for the suggestion of writing things down as they happen. I do have what has happened in the past written down but then I quit, so it’s not up to date. I need to do this.
I would write more but need to get back to work … will write more later on tonight.
((HUGS))
Bev and all,
So Bev you have a son who is a sociopath. Having known him your while life, looking back, when did he first exhibit the signs? And were examples? Do you believe he was born this way or became this way? Do you recognize other sociopaths in the family tree? My father was an SP. I have a sister who is an SP. I have a grandmother who was an SP. My husband is an SP. I have a child who is a full blown SP. I previously recounted a story in which her second grade teacher called me in to basically tell me something was wrong with her character.
This could be quite a lengthy post. I have been trying to figure out how to answer without writing a novel.
From the minute that our son was born, there was something very different about him. He was off. He did not act like what an infant is ‘supposed’ to act like.
I will preface the rest of this post with two things. I was 19 years old, and really wanted a baby. I was very young. I wanted to be a mother in my life, and that was really all that I wanted. The other thing is, our son’s birth was a difficult one. I was on the brink of c-section after hours and hours of labor, when forceps were finally used, with the delivery doctor having his foot up on the delivery table to brace himself while he pulled. No joke. I was in complete agony…thought I would die…but, the doctor, at last (after what seemed like forever) yanked my son out. My son had a cone head for awhile afterward.
My son seemed angry from the get go (forceps maybe?) and also would not eat. When I say that, I mean it. He literally would not suck. He seemed to not want to or care to eat at all. He was not a thriver. Listless and no will to live it seemed. Breastfeeding was out of the question by day two, as he was losing weight. (He was born a normal weight of 7’8). The nurses had to force feed him for five days, until we left the hospital! Bear in mind…I was 19…when we got him home, we had no idea what to do, so, in order for him to stay alive, we also had to hold him and pour the formula down his throat and into him while he gagged, gargled, and screamed. He seemed so angry. I didn’t know babies could be angry…
BTW, to this day, he still does not enjoy food or eating…go figure, huh? We had a terrible time getting him to eat or enjoy anything at all when he was living with us even until his 7th year.
Anyway, there are so many odd behaviors to tell. He hated, and I mean detested, being with us, or any people. He preferred to stay in his room…with the door closed, and play by himself. He would literally whine until we could not stand it any more and once he was in his room where he wanted to be, we could actually hear him ‘playing’ and acting close to what may resemble, a childlike happiness. This is all too weird…to actually write it down. He also did not like going anywhere, he did not like to have fun or smile very much (and we tried, believe me). He would not walk either! If we took him for a walk, or went to a park for some family time, he would whine, cry, and then scream, and fall way behind, so that other people would ask us what was the matter with him?? Imagine if you can…he acted so pathetic to get that sort of attention from others. He always did that. It was like he did not like happiness, especially in others. My husband and I tried so hard to get him to have fun. I literally can remember NO good times with him…no Christmases, no Halloweens, no birthdays…just misery all of the time. If my husband and / or I were having fun, our son would try to put an end to it by fussing and crying and ruining it. Once we stopped having fun, our son seemed smugly satisfied.
We were at wit’s end. My husband comes from a big family…5 siblings, who all had children around the same time that we did. They were all FINE….normal. Of course, we thought that there was something wrong with us…our son was so pathetic and always tried to make other people feel sorry for him. I think we thought that others thought that we were bad parents. Too young to know what we were doing maybe. They did not live with our son, so they did not see the strangeness that was him.
When he was almost 6, he told a terrible lie about my husband. Imagine the WORST thing that you could accuse your father of. He was in daycare at the time, and another little girl had talked about this, apparently, according to the teacher there. Anyway, it had to be investigated, so the police became involved. My poor husband was interrogated. My son was adamant, but in an odd flippant way, that it was true. No trauma. Always sneering, almost smiling about the fact the he was being felt sorry for. He looked in my eyes, for weeks, telling me what his daddy did to him and not seeming particularly upset about it. I was destroyed. I knew that I had to take my son and leave my husband. Children don’t lie about these things. I could not believe it. My husband and I were so close and he was just not that type. My son was never even alone with him. I mean never. My husband did not have a fun father / son relationship due to our son’s strangeness. It just did not happen, because of our son’s demeanor. My husband did not enjoy being around our son…nor did I. I could not understand when or how it could have happened.
Upon the police investigating, and after sending our son to a psychologist, it was determined not to be true. My husband was cleared, and I still cry for him. If you knew him, he is the most kind and decent man. Not a freak like that. He no longer wanted to be around our son. I had to bathe him and feed him and do everything with him after that. Everything! Our son, today, says that he lied about it all. I read it in an email to his ex. She sent me the email where he flippantly talked about why he was ‘put into care’ by us when he was 7. That may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, but he was put into care by us for alot of his behaviors. We simply did not trust him any more. We didn’t even want to be around him. Our son just went on, as if nothing happened…killed his hamster…stole things from peoples’ yards on his way to and home from school, etc. He made a teacher cry by pushing her to the brink. IN GRADE ONE.
He was diagnosed a SP at 5 or 6 years of age. We had no idea what that meant. It was the 80s…no internet…we told nobody. I think we were in denial because we really did not know the scope of what that even meant. We buried it I think. Until this year!
That lie about my husband was the turning point for all of us. After that, things got worse. We did not trust our son, nor really even want to be around him. We knew that was not good for him or us. We placed him in care. He slid right into his new home, never crying for us, not even caring. You could not have taken me or my husband away from our parents! We would have screamed and cried…anyway, I digress. We were understandably devastated. We could not fathom how little our son cared about what was happening. He seemed excited about it, in a weird way, going to a new home. We kept in touch with the foster family the entire time that he lived there. They were wonderful people.
He was diagnosed a second time while living with them, and it was also determined that he had never been molested, by anyone. How the hell did he know enough to lie about it? Mind you, it was a vague description that he gave, but still. He must have known that my husband would get into trouble…that I would leave him…it is so hard to try and wrap my head around. Even almost 30 years later…
Anyway, I made the mistake of us reconnecting with him at age 16. He still lived in the home with the wonderful people. We saw him once or twice per year, and only brief encounters. He seemed to be flippant and not really care, but also seemed to ‘play’ the part of a son who turned out pretty great despite his life. We were not even sure if he remembered the lie that he told way back when…only, yes, he apparently did…because this year, at 33 years of age, in his email to his ex…there is was. ‘I LIED…and it was read wrong’, he said…a small sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs, making it seem trivial and virtually meaningless…jesus…
He married and had two children about 5 years ago (which I never thought that he should do…we could see that he had a problem, but literally forgot the diagnoses in the past or maybe didn’t believe them). The marriage started falling apart almost immediately, and he was lying to us about why like she was unfaithful (not true) and then I began researching somehow…about sociopathy…oh what I know now!
(BTW, when they first split, and he wanted 50/50 custody, he asked us to pay for a mediator and when we said no, he lost his shit! He thought that we should support our son and not throw him away again…pity ploy)!! That outburst and subsequent ‘freezing us out’ really opened my eyes. He felt entitled to us paying…as a matter of fact, he only really ever had anything to do with us when he wants or needs money, or something else, when I. Never just to see us or ask how WE are…
They had been seeing a counselor when things were going bad. My DIL could obviously see that it was not going to do any good with my son. He continued seeing the counselor on his own for ‘anger’ issues apparently…and guess what? He was diagnosed a THIRD TIME!! My DIL told me.
This sure explains this shit show of a life that my husband and I have had with him. Still, like I said, there is NO VINDICATION in knowing the truth. No…now we just get to strive for NO CONTACT…not what we envisioned for our lives together, that’s for sure. We know what our son is capable of, though. DESTRUCTION OF RELATIONSHIPS AND PEOPLE.
He should have never had children. I always knew it in my gut. Now, he is using them to torture his ex! He said in the email to her that he will tell the courts that she spanks them. Another HUGE LIE that he knows is not true that could possibly ruin her life…
Sorry…I got cut off! Too long of a post??
Anyway. looking back at our families, I don’t really think that there are any other SPs lurking there, but what do I know?
I want to add…we felt guilty about putting our own son into care, so when we got back together, it seemed like a goal that we should have had.
Never spending any significant amount of time with him, we thought that he was different. That he had grown up and out of whatever it was…
Well, SPs do not change. He is still the same person that he ever was.
He has shown himself to be a true SP. He still lies. He still manipulates. He still tries to play people against each other. Even my husband and myself, even now. Divide and conquer.
We don’t understand why. We are just regular decent people.
Just wanted to add that in…
Dear Bev,
What a brave act telling your story. It needed to be told. You did the right thing sending him away to foster care. That was the correct thing to do. That was the only thing to be done. I would have done the same thing. He is a danger. I’ve seen in the courts here innocent people who are looking at a lifetime in prison over a mere accusation of child molestation, no physical evidence, no witnesses, no concrete story. Just the mere accusation now sends you up the river. Arrest and indict first and maybe/maybe not sort out the truth later. Once you and your husband X him out you will be safe. I really would love to tell you you will have happiness but sometimes safety is all we can strive for. You so eloquently told your story of victimization and all the land mines you had to face. At one point, when you said that it was a digression that you and your husband could never leave your parents, it wasn’t a digression, it a main point. What normal child can leave his parents???? There are heroin addicts whose children wouldn’t leave them. Your son is going to have a long history of subjecting others to the criminal courts to get his way. Your DIL’s greatest weapon is that email in which he states he lied about the molestation. Never look to the SP for love, there isn’t any. It seems that you are still grieving for having given birth to human without a soul. It is not your fault. It’s the luck of the draw. He’s dangerous and by withdrawing your presence you are reducing his ‘respectability’ and his ability to abuse others in the future. He’ll lie and say he doesn’t have a mother. There is nothing you can do about that but at least you are not lending your presence to the fraud. He is trying to create a division between you and husband again. He wants you to be alone and isolated. For what purpose only he knows. He was willing to send your husband to prison to isolate you. He will continue to use your husband. This knowledge must be very painful. Trying to convince and warn your husband as to what lies ahead. Thank you for answering my question. You deserve to be free of him once and for all and forever.
Once again, thank you SO much for all of your understanding and kindness, becomingstrong…I feel a true friend in you.
Everything you just posted is spot on.
HIS admission of the lie, in that email to his ex is key. He had and has no explanation for why he did it because there is none. Yes, my husband and I have wracked our brains trying to figure out why he did it. When it happened, we were moving our ‘family’ to another city, in another province, far away from where we lived. Perhaps my son realized that he was losing his only ally…his grandmother, my husband’s mother, who pitied and felt sorry for him. Who let him manipulate her to no end. Who also thought that we were too young and too hard on him, as parents. We needed to leave all of that…and then, all of a sudden out of nowhere, a call from the daycare and from the police, when he cooked up that lie. Perhaps so that we would not move away from the ONLY person who bought into his bullshit? If that is so, what a conniving thing to do for an almost 6 year old. Perhaps he thought that we would not move, if my husband and I were no longer together? The mind boggles as to any reason.
And yes, you do hear grieving from me for what will never be. I have never really had a son at all. Not even for a little while. This is certainly not the life that we envisioned. We had no more children, of course. We planned on more than one, but after all of that, well…
You know, in another email from my DIL, HE had copied her on it to his counselor, he stated that his ‘foster’ father had given him a bit of money for his first Christmas, alone, separated. with his kids…only thing was, it was MY husband who put the $500 in his bank account because he had been whining about how broke he was…this after yelling at us for not paying for the mediator. I told my husband not to even acknowledge Christmas, but he could not help himself…he even lies to his counselor…talks nothing of us, his REAL parents…like we do not even exist. I can only imagine the lies he has told her about why we put him into care. She likely believes that we are terrible people, so he cannot tell her that his real father ‘made’ his Christmas happen. That would reveal something that he probaly contradicted already…so, yeah, I likely do not exist any more in his eyes.
That is just fine with me.
Thank you again for listening and reading my ‘novel’. I tried to keep it as short as I possibly could 🙂
I just have to respond MORE to your wonderful post.
It is like I gave birth to someone without a soul. I do grieve for that. For myself…not for him any more. There isn’t ANY love in him…not for we his REAL parents, not for his foster parents, not for his ex, not for his own children…not for anyone. There is nothing there but a black hole.
I do feel as if, if I stay in his life, that it condones any future behaviors of HIS and I will not do that.
That lie destroyed me. When I think back, I do not even know how I (or we) even made it through it all. It was indescribable what my husband and I went through. And to think that I might have left my husband for that black hole…my god. I would not be alive now. It would have been such a colossal mistake that I might have been driven to do something dire, like suicide, once I realized what my son was.
I will not lend my presence to the fraud that is my son. I can’t do that. He still does try to create a division between my husband and myself…almost 30 years later! He is a sick little worm.
It makes me cry for my husband whenever I think about the past, and I always do. HE has continued to try to use my husband for whatever he can get out of him. My husband is Mr Empathy, so he has played right into our son’s hand many a time. He is seeing…but he still can’t let go like I have. My husband giving HIM money this past Christmas, because he thought he needed it for the kids, nearly killed me inside. It opened the door AGAIN. New Year’s day, our son was in our town, because he and the NEW girlfriend had attended a party at one of HER friend’s house (funny that…pick a girl who has friends three hours away, in our town). He texts my husband and says ‘wanna meet for lunch’…my husband texts back and says ‘sure’…innocent enough…NOT.
I quietly flipped out (I did not want to upset my husband but I was furious, afraid, hateful…etc). I told my husband that I would NOT go with him. That I would NOT meet any new person in our son’s life. He is still going through a messy split and custody battle for shit’s sake! My husband understood. He went. I stayed home. He was gone about an hour as they had to drive back home so that he could pick up his children for the rest of the weekend. I came to find out, btw, from my DIL, that he was supposed to have the kids that whole weekend, but wanted to go to the New Years eve party…loser. Anyway, husband comes home and I say that I do not want to know ANYTHING about their visit. He understood.
We have not heard from him since. Don’t know why. I do know that my DIL served him with child support papers and a protective order, because even tho he has a new girlfriend (that the idiot wanted us to meet), he still harasses his ex constantly. WORM. That new girl means nothing to him. He is using her to rub his ex’s nose in things. And, to make it look as if he is moving on. He will NEVER move on. I am thinking that we are not hearing from him because perhaps he knows that WE know that she served him, and when my husband asks how things are going…he has to either tell the truth, which he can’t seem to ever do…or LIE to his face.
I do not know what lays ahead…if only I could see the future.
So much of your story, the theme, isolate and devour, rings true with me. When you are the primary target and only destruction will satisfy the spath, everyone and everything is collateral damage. The foster parents were targets, he needed some place to live didn’t he and they were as good as anyone else. That you have a relationship with his children and wife is more grounds for him to use your husband. He’s going to make you pay for bringing him into this world, it’s all your fault in his mind. My spath wants me to dislike my children (he’s constantly telling me how this child or that child said this or that really negative thing about me) and then he’s doing his handy work over there with them. Isolate me is the game to end is my destruction. Mine wrote me an email and in part he stated, “You are trying your best to delay this divorce from reaching it’s logical conclusion.” He never defines what is the logical conclusion. If I applied the normal use of words it would mean end in divorce, right? Why not just say that, it will end the marriage. When he leads me to define something, word salad, it’s a trap. In his mind I am dragging the divorce through but the end is something other than what I think it should be. But now he knows I’m onto his language and so he sending me a message of sorts. I see he is sending a warning to me that only I can see, others just mentally insert “end in divorce” as the meaning for “logical conclusion”. Now what does he really have in store?
That is how this all feels…as if everything is OUR fault. Almost, like you said, for bringing him into this world in the first place. How f’ed up is that? In his mind, his whole life is our fault. I know that he feels that way.
None of this happened because of our choice or anything that we did wrong.
My son also speaks like your ex…in word salad…what does he have in store, indeed?
We cannot seem to have a relationship with our DIL nor the children, at least for now, as HE is still too involved. He would love it if we let ourselves get drawn into all of the drama that is currently happening…but we will not. If we did, HE would get what he wants again…to have all of our attention while killing us all at the same time, figuratively, of course.
We see exactly what is happening…and WE have to protect ourselves. We know that now.
I meant to say the foster parents were NOT targets
btw, he hasn’t turned in 1 financial, not one. So who is dragging what out? His interpretation of the meaning could be that I am dragging this divorce out to get my divorce, as opposed to impeding the divorce.
Geez…what a mindf+++er.
Just like my son’s view on anything. Convoluted.