By | February 16, 2013 49 Comments

“Did He Ever Love Me?” A Qualitative Study of Life With a Psychopathic Husband

Just Like His Father? (available through this site) was released in October, 2006. At that time I fantasized that the audience for the book would be single parents or grandparents raising the children of personality disordered individuals. I thought that most of the disordered parents would have abandoned the family and want nothing to do with the kids. While we still do not know what percentage of personality disordered parents abandon their kids, I have come to believe that that those who do not are a much bigger social problem.

Within 6 months of the release of the book, people who were trying to co-parent with severely disordered former partners began to write me. At first I did not believe the stories because they so contradicted common sense and my clinical training. What sane person would believe that the family courts would grant unsupervised access or even custody to severely personality disordered abusive parents? Well I discovered that is just what they do, and since that discovery have been working obsessively to change things.

If we are to change the insane system the first thing we need is valid, objective reliable data regarding how it operates. We also need valid, objective reliable data about the parenting and intimate behavior of people with cluster B personality disorders. I have set a goal to collect that data not for a “pop psychology” book but for its scientific value. That has meant Ethics Committee (IRB) approvals, funding, questionnaires, interviews, research assistants and statistics. I am still collecting this data from former partners and adult children of disordered individuals but have made substantial progress (send Donna an email if you want to consider providing data).

Last year I was teaching a research methods class to graduate students in counseling. We were discussing qualitative and narrative research when one of the students raised her hand and said she enjoyed reading autobiographies of people who had unusual experiences, a light bulb went on inside my head. I looked at her and said, “See me after class.” Last summer that student, another student Emily, Linda who blogs for Lovefraud, and I read and analyzed using modern qualitative methods 18 memoirs written by former partners and adult sons and daughters of psychopathic individuals. I am happy to announce that one of the papers generated from this research is now available.

The paper provides substantial data that might be useful for women who are trying to protect children from a psychopathic father. The paper also explains to professionals how and why women get into these relationships and the damage the relationships do. Here is the abstract:

This is the first in-depth study of the influence of psychopathy (as assessed by the PCL-R) on the intimate relationship behavior of men. Using well-established qualitative methods, Leedom, Geslien, and Almas examined the published memoirs of 10 women who had long-term relationships with psychopathic men. They also examined articles, videotaped interviews, forensic evaluations where available, and author feedback. The authors determined that these relationships consist of four phases: induction, commitment, disengagement, and recovery. All of the women they studied had been conned, manipulated, or coerced during all or most phases of the relationship. The data from the 10 memoirs have been triangulated with that of a memoir written by a woman who had been kidnapped at age 11 and held 18 years by a psychopathic man, and with a case well known to the first author. Although the resulting data are qualitative and come from a limited number of cases, they have enabled the formulation of a model to explain the relationship between the facets of psychopathy and intimate partner experiences, exploitation, and abuse. Psychopathic men may occasionally demonstrate “affectionate” behavior and express concern for children, but psychopathy is not compatible with a healthy relationship or a nurturing home environment for children.

You may obtain the paper from The Civic Research Institute

I am unable to provide data regarding the experiences of men because there were no memoirs written by men. The paper presenting the data from adult children has not yet been accepted, but that paper contains data regarding psychopathic mothers.

I hope to continue to do the very difficult task of objectively collecting and reporting data while at the same time advocating for social change. This paper is a start.

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Ox Drover

Liane while I applaud this effort…the one fly in the ointment I see is that of getting these “men” (or women) labeled as “psychopathic” because they are great actors in the court system many times.

Of course if the man (woman) is a criminal, alcoholic, drug addict, etc. I can see where the nurturing parent could use this information to maybe try to educate the court, but in one case I am aware of right now where the mother has a restraining order on the husband for HORRIBLE VIOLENT ABUSE the judge still says “well because he is a bad husband doesn’t mean he isn’t a loving father” and requires her to co-parent with this monster. Her state even provides for an “address” that is supposedly secret, but her ex glories in the fact that he keeps finding her.

I just finished an Anne Rule book about a P husband/father that tracked his x wife and her family to another state by pumping the 12 yr old daughter who was secretly having phone conversations with him to get information about where the family was living, then sent a hit man to kill his x wife.

I am going to give a copy of this article and your report to her so that maybe it will help her in her fight for safety for her child who is terrified of daddy dearest.

A poster on another thread today here on LF was talking about her father killed her mother and her brother because her mother was demanding child support from him. Her father is in prison.

The COURTS NEED TO GET IT about psychopaths but getting the people LABELED Psychopaths is going to be a problem.


Liane & Linda,

Thank you for all your dedication and hard work in ths area. I agree with Oxy, getting the diagnosis will remain a major concern. Here is an interesting article I just came upon today. Very unusual. It has held up in the appeals court, but I will be interested in seeing if it holds up in the California State Supreme Court.

This article deals with the termination of parental rights. This is an important issue because what many people do not understand is that although many, many times the courts do not seem to “get it” that is not always the case.

When deciding custody of a child, the Family Court usually seriously takes into account the “best interest of the child” taking many things into consideration. Like Liane points out who is and who is not able to offer a healthy relationship or a nuturing home environment for the child. The Magistrate and/or Judge then awards legal custody to that person.

What many people entering into a custody situation do not understand is that the biological parent who has “lost custody” still has residual rights, which include, but are not limited to “parenting time”.

In other words, they have parental rights. Magistrates and/or Judges can not simply ignore these rights. Parental Rights are part of our Constitutional Rights. The rights of parents to raise and educate their children is a fundamental type of liberty protected by the Due Process Clause under the 14th Amendment.

Almost ALL cases of terminating parental rights WILL be appealed to the State Supreme Court. Most state Supreme Courts view these cases as follows: Parents have a basic civil right to raise their children and that termination of parental rights is the Family Court equivalent of the death penalty in a criminal case. Simply put, almost impossible to terminate one’s parental rights. It usually takes a parent to abandon the child for a long period of time before the court will even consider termination of parental rights.

What I am trying to point out here, is that it is not just a matter of educating our Family Courts. It must be a movement to recognize and validate the RIGHT OF THE CHILD.

Whether we agree or not, whether we like it or not, our Family Courts are under the obligation to follow the laws, State laws and Constitutional laws.

Ox Drover

Interesting article, Milo…The CHILD should have the RIGHT to be brought up in a nurturing environment, and no DNA donor should “own” that child. I think children are still considered chattel.

Even after your daughter had proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she was an UNFIT parent, and you have raised Grand since he was an infant you had to go back to court and spent MEGA BUCKS to defend him against her and even though she is engaged in criminal activity she still has custody of her little girl and “parenting rights” with Grand. Thank goodness that he is old enough and refuses to see her. Good for him, and good for you as well going NC with her.

It still amazes me every day that I read the newspapers and see where kids were maimed or killed by parents AFTER they had been shown to be ABUSIVE. Saw one yesterday where a woman had 3-4 kids taken away but she had a new baby, and failed to feed it or change it and after a couple of months it STARVED TO DEATH covered in its own filth. (Sob, sigh)

EVERY DAY children are killed by their parents in the US. Saw one article in Saudi where the father raped, tortured and killed his 5 year old daughter and spent 4 MONTHS in jail and will have to pay “blood money” to the mother and the judge said he had enough time in jail…and this man is a Muslim PREACHER.

I’m not sure our (US) situation is much better. It breaks my heart that “parents” have “rights” and children have NONE.


Liane and Linda, THANK you for putting this data together. YES – there needs to be male input, as well.

I believe that the only way to cause changes in the current climate of “children need both parents” in Family Courts is by submitting this kind of study. I would be more than willing to discuss the first exspath, how he “got” the children, and the results of that fiasco!

The sad fact is that Family Courts do not “hear” the parties who are in dispute. What they “hear” is a whole lot of noise and rely upon “objective” parties that are not involved in the shennanigans on a day-to-day basis. These “objective” individuals are not witnesses to the crazy-making, manipulations, coercion of children, and the rest that goes along with co-parenting with a disordered mother or father.

OxD, one of the peripheral members of the second exspath’s family produced her first offspring at 17. I was demonized at a “family gathering” when I suggested that she put the baby up for adoption as she was ill-equipped to raise a child. Well, that baby was taken away from her because she was found to be “unfit,” AND given to the grandfather – another disordered jackass that received PAYMENT to “foster” this child. Then, within a year, she became pregnant, again. This second child was taken away and, again, given to the grandfather. Again, this gal became pregnant, and the same scenario, and it hasn’t stopped, YET. At last count, this girl-now-woman had produced 4 offspring that were ALL taken away from her because she was found to be UNFIT. She has been in and out of jail on various convictions and she has NO BUSINESS producing any more offspring, regardless of whether she ever pulls her life together, or not!

What happens when people who have no business producing offspring is that a family member is “awarded custody” of the innocent lives and PAID via taxpayer’s dollars to raise them.

So, I was verbally lambasted (literally) by the exspath’s family members that this girl was going to be a terrific mother and that she would have “help” from supportive family members. Clearly, placing that first baby up for adoption to a family that was emotionally, spiritually, and financially prepared to raise a child would have been the best possible outcome for that innocent soul, rather than being placed in the same disordered and dysfunctional environment that it was born into.


MORE DATA needs to be stuffed down the throats of Family Courts until they are able to digest the facts and make wise and sensible decisions. Sometimes, the wisest and most sensible decisions are not pleasant – they are not “all-inclusive,” and people are going to have to suffer. But, forcing innocent children to suffer because they do not have a voice is just as heinous as what these “parents” do and everyone in the decision-making processes should be held accountable, INCLUDING judges.

Brightest blessings


Where is Skylar? Miss her.

Tea Light

Hi Lou! Hope you’re having a peaceful and happy Sunday x


Tea Light:

Hi!!!!! So good to see you. Yep, I am having a peaceful Sunday. I am volunteering at church later at a concert for tweens. So it will be a ton of 9-12 year olds running around. I will be at the T shirt selling table. I love volunteering.

Glad you are OK and well. Please keep us updated…peace and love to you. x

Tea Light

Lou that’s great! Hope you sell loads of t shirts! My cathedral needs volunteers for its shop, just 1 or 2 hours a week I’m thinking about it but I get very tired still when I’m not at my paying job or keeping body and soul together I’m asleep. Anyway counting my blessings, so many heartbreaking posts from new LFers. Love to you Loulou x


Tea Light:

I also volunteer once a month in the kids ministry (where the kids are while their parents are in service). It’s fun. I volunteer with the 5 year old group.

You should do it when you are stronger and have more energy. I completely understand how you feel now. I felt that way for a long, long time. Where I am now…I’m beginning to feel like I didn’t even know him. This is what happens after No Contact for so long. I still have a lot of mixed feelings, but time is moving on. I was thinking this morning about people like him and how they seem to always get away with everything…they just do.

Good for you for counting your blessings. I am doing the same. I still have a hurt spot way, way down inside, but it is getting smaller bit by bit. Love to you, too. x

Ox Drover

Liane, Children are still considered chattel just as women were in the past…unless they commit some awful crime, and then they are charged and prosecuted as adults with full responsibility.

Our culture is skewed and crazy…a boy can join the marines and go to combat at 17 or 18 but not buy a beer…he can vote at 18 but not buy a beer…a minor girl can get an abortion without her parents being told but the doctor can’t sew up a cut on her finger without parental consent. It is a crime for a 12 year old girl to have sex, and a physician/nurse/educator is a mandated reporter, yet that 12 year old girl has a “right to sexual privacy” and if you report you violate confidentiality.

And PARENTS have “rights” to their offspring but the offspring have no rights…well a few do, that kid who “divorced” his parents, and Drew Barrymore emancipated at a very early age because of her parents taking her money among other things, but over all the child has few rights.

Liane, I applaud your efforts and I totally agree with you, and I don’t want to throw cold water on your efforts, but feel like you are pissing in the ocean to try to raise the sea level, the task is so HUGE….but, every change must start with at least one person who is dissatisfied with the status quo, and you are NOT alone. Hopefully, there will be some changes made in our society and culture, even if they are very slow. Look how long it took to get the vote for women in this country, and it was only in the 1970/80s that women could have access to the joint credit score of their spouse in the event of a divorce.

So you and the others working hard on this change may not be fast, but I do sincerely hope to see some measure of progress in my lifetime.


OxD, I sure hope this research is helpful in change for the rights of children. When a child is concieved, they don’t have a choice as to whom they will be born to, or in what type of environment. When people – well-meaning people – attempt to intercede on a child’s behalf (re. exspath’s relative), they are DEMONIZED for interfering, even when the “parent” is clearly not suitable to raise a healthy, well-adjusted child.

Children DO need advocacy and changes have to start, somewhere. If a concerned parent or abused child doesn’t have a legal voice, then, perhaps, the professionals might. People, in general, tend to “listen to,” or “hear,” what professionals in their field have to say LONG before they pay attention to what is perceived as a bitter ex-wife or ex-husband to a sociopath.

I hope to see change, too. Changes for children and changes for “No Fault” divorce!

Ox Drover

My state is not a “no fault” but it is community property…there WAS NO community property in my son C’s divorce from his P wife, and she did NOT have to show up in court, but she DID for some reason, I guess to hear me testify that she and her BF tried to kill my son and that they went to prison and jail and that we had photographs of her in bondage made in my mother’s home. LOL

When she had been released homeless from the jail they sent her to the local DV shelter and she of course told them how abused she was and she was escorted to court by one of their advocates who looked at me like I was Satan himself. LOL

The CASA program here in the courts are advocates for the kids in foster care….I got involved with the program for a while but am no longer active with it (court appointed special advocate) It is a good program for the kids from abused situations who are in foster care. Unfortunately too many of these kids are disordered themselves and it was triggering me to the point that I had to opt out for myself.


OxD, in the first divorce, I still didn’t have a clue what I was dealing with, and I was flabbergasted by how the courts didn’t “hear” my concerns about my children’s well-being. The Judge just wanted the both of us to shut up, get along, and get the hell out of his courtroom.

The children need advocacy, to be sure. But, the non-spath parent needs resources, as well. In order to help their children “adjust” and recover from a divorce, the non-spath parent needs intensive counseling therapy, as well as the children. But, given the fact that spaths turn courtrooms into their personal performance stages, I don’t have any idea how to address this.

It takes a tremendous amount of courage to volunteer for such an organization, OxD. I don’t know if I would be able to summon up the courage and maintain the strict boundaries to do that, personally. That you did it, at all, is incredible!

Brightest blessings


Hi Everybody, it’s Denise (Ledden) Escher, from the True Lovefraud Stories ~ Mark Ledden. My psychopathic ex is now, for the second or third time, I forget which, suing me, from court asking for visitation. He is asking for every weekend phonecalls, holidays, weekly mail correspondence…oh it gets better….asking or HIS FATHER to take my kids to see him in the jail. Which is over 4 hrs from my home, oh what else, oh, all their psych evals, medical records, school report cards… would think this man was a FREE MAN with what he wants. So, back to court I go on March 6 to continue my fight to keep them from him completely. I think that it needs to be determined that the ex is in fact a psychopath! Otherwise, I think the more and more he throws up there, the judge/master will let something stick and my poor kids, who have PTSD, as do I, will be forced in some way to have contact with him. In 3 days, he will start day one of year FOUR behind bars. He was sentenced to a minimum of 7 and a max of 20. I know that he is doing this ONLY because he sees these children as his property that I am keeping from him. It’s not about them, it’s about ME. I will always believe that. I am fairly certain that the court will at least order that HE and BOTH CHILDREN be psych evaluated. I want to make sure that whomever evals HIM is NOT someone from the prison, and someone experienced with psychopathy. AND I want the SAME PERSON to eval my kids. Some days I feel like NO SANE PSYCHIATRIST would EVER find it in the best interests of my children and family for them to, at ages 10 and 7, have any contact with the man who stabbed their mother 11 times in front of them. Other days, I remind myself JUST how manipulative my ex husband is, and think someone out there might say ‘we ahve to give him a chance’…..I live in fear every single day 🙁 if any of you can help me, please let me know!


I Win, I am horrified to read of the attack that you survived, and I am grateful that you recovered.

Okay, I am NOT a professional or savvy in legal matters, but I’m reading from your post, above, that the psychopathic father stabbed YOU in front of your children and is now demanding “visitation” with the children who witnessed this attempt at murder?

First things first: are you AND your children involved in strong counseling? If yes, then have your therapist and their therapists write a “NARRATIVE” with regard to the ramifications of forcing visitation on these children. A “Narrative” is a discussion by the therapist that doesn’t involve diagnoses and a great deal of psych-speak. If you and your children are not involved in strong counseling therapy, I would urge you to do this, ASAP. There are many reasons for this with the first and foremost being your recovery and that of your children. You will each have your own counselor who will assist EACH of you in processing the horrific experiences and managing PSTD, depression, anxiety, etc. so that you can all recover.

Next….do you have representation by an attorney? If not, contact your local Victims’ Services office or domestic violence hotline. No doubt, you’ve been acquainted with both of these agencies, already, but they can put you in contact with strong, competent ADVOCACY, especially for your children.

The court may, or may not, order psych evaluations and you will NOT have a voice in which professional conducts assessments. The Court typically determines this. I don’t know what State this issue is being heard in, but it is vital for you to avoid, at all costs, any attempts to “predict” what court rulings will result, what the spath is going to say/do, etc. Attempts at prediction invariably result in extreme anxiety that you cannot afford, at this time.

Keep in mind that the spath is making these motions to disturb your life, and the lives of your children. It’s pretty much the only thing that he can do to continue exerting damage. With that in mind, process your emotions outside of any legal proceedings either with your counseling therapist, or in a healthy and safe way.

Turn the fear into anger, IWin. Get ANGRY that this disease has the NERVE to make any demands, at all! THEN……then, dear heart, take that anger and use that incredible energy to make phone calls, arrange appointments, and get down to business.

Keep coming back to this site, keep reading (especially, gray rock techniques), keep posting, and keep recovering.

Brightest and most supportive blessings


Denise ~

I can’t even imagine the horror. I don’t know how much help this will be, but –

As you know, what he is asking for falls under his residual “parental rights” under the law. The right to visitation and access to medical and school records. The third, I am sure he is not requesting is the “right” to pay child support.

Have you ever considered attempting to terminate his parental rights? You may want to check out the link I posted above in the comments – under Milo –

It is the case of a mother having the father’s parental rights terminated because of his mental illness. It is a case out of California and it was upheld on appeals.

I am so sorry, may you and your children find peace.


IWin, I like MiLo’s suggestion about looking into terminating his “parental rights,” and she is spot-on with regard to these “rights,” which is what Dr. Leedam is collecting research data to address: CHILDREN DO NOT NEED DISORDERED PARENTS IN THEIR LIVES!!! Sorry for the caps, but it’s meant for emphasis and not virtual shouting.

Other readers who have far more experience in this type of legal situation can offer excellent suggestions. For the time being, the best that I can offer is to take back control of your emotions, any way that you safely can.

Brightest blessings


truthspeak and milo, I used to go to counseling but then had to quit my job due to the PTSD stress (i taught in an inner city high school where my safety was threatened, i couldn’t perform, rather than be eventually fired, i just quit ) so I couldn’t afford to continue to go. and the copay is $25 each time I go, can’t afford that either as now i don’t work much. My kids go, actually my youngest just got discharged as his behaviors in and out of school are very good right now. These children want nothing to do with their father. I don’t know much about ‘residual’ parental rights, but what about MY RIGHTS to my emotional sanity? medical records are minimal for the kids, school report cards? HES IN JAIL…why should he have ANY RIGHTS while he’s in there? i will do what the court orders, as long as it’s not allowing my kids to be ripped away from me and forced to go with virtual stranger grandparents to a prison to see the man who tried to kill their mom. I’ll leave the country before I let that ever happen.

I would need my ex husband DIAGNOSED with a mental ill ness before they’d revoke his parental rights. And, what about me, I have anxiety disorder AND PTSD, both ‘mental illnesses’ couldnt that serve as my not being able to raise them either???

just so frustrating. I will never find peace as long as this man is still breathing 🙁



Please understand, I AGREE with you 100% on how you are feeling. This is ridiculous, YOU SHOULD HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS HERE. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the law. The law is what I was talking about. You most likely have “legal” custody. Look up the laws in your state, most likely with you having legal custody, he still has, under the law, those residual rights I was mentioning.

In order to terminate his rights, you must attempt to get “permanent custody” and this would remove any and all rights he has to your children. Again, legally, this is not easy. Perhaps, citing the case in California, having him diagnosed with a mental illness would greatly increase your chances. This is something an attorney would have to research.

As far as your question about your PTSD and anxiety disorder falling into this same category as “mental illness” and keeping you from parenting your children – I don’t believe so. I hope Donna responds to this. She is educated on how PTSD is now considered under the American’s With Disabilities Act and can not (if I understand it right) be used against you in court proceedings.

Some thoughts – Can’t you get counseling through victim’s benefits from your state? Do you have a victim’s advocate? Do your children have a victim’s advocate?

More – I have recently heard of some “test cases” with children with PTSD. The thoughts behind these cases are that children with PTSD have suffered a permanent type of “change” in their brains. If the PTSD was caused by or a direct result of an action of a parent, that parent can be charged with felony child abuse. Were these types of charges ever considered? I’m sorry I don’t have more information on child abuse with regards to PTSD, but I know it is out there, it is just a matter of finding it. Again, something an attorney should definitely look into.

Please understand, I can’t even imagine how frustrating and terrifying this must be for you. Also, understand, I certainly DO NOT agree with these laws, just attempting to make you aware of them.


IWin, I read your frustration and fear, and it is this fear that is causing you to attempt to predict outcomes.

Take control of your own actions and decisions AWAY from the spath by using the techniques that you learned in counseling to manage the anxiety. Then, take proactive steps to secure some counseling and legal representation by calling your local Victims’ Services Office. This agency will provide you with a myriad of resources from counseling with professionals trained in PSTD and victims’ issues to strong, competent legal representation and advocacy.

I honestly identify with the fear-factor and attempts to predict. I really do. You are going to make it through this in good order and with strength and courage.

Brightest blessings

I Win – If you’ve been diagnosed with PTSD, you are entitled to accommodations in court under the Americans with Disabilities Act. What this means is that you can have someone help you cope with the court process and be with you during appearances. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything regarding the court’s decisions, just assistance for you to stay composed during court proceedings – which often means a lot.


Thanks for the clarification Donna. I certainly did not have it completely right, and did not want to give out any information that was not totally valid.

I love you guys to death, but why is this so gender based? Or perhaps I should rephrase that and ask why we insist on saying “him” or “her” as opposed to our “mate”?

I am male and am grappling with the effects of having been with a BPD. Now while I can understand that many of the issues being discussed tend to present with the men being the bad guy (or is simply that less men talk about it?), but the insistence on this language over time will preclude the possibility in the minds of some (too many as a matter of fact) that women can behave in this manner too.

Language is everything!

All of you are awesome and I appreciate this place immensely. Please don’t take offense to any of it.


BDKR, the “reason” that you see what you perceive to be gender-biased language is that most men who have experienced sociopathic entanglements DON’T recognize it as having been a disordered partner, and they do not speak out about their experiences due to STIGMA.

I’m not offended, whatsoever. I wish more men would come forward to level this perception, properly. Education is an imperative, and it would be so helpful for other men to read about peer healing and recovery.

Brightest blessings


Donna, SPOT-ON regarding the Americans With Disabilities Act. Precisely why putting the angst into positive energy would be such a service.

Ox Drover

Denise, the problem with an ADA advocate for PTSD is that I believe that YOU must pay for this and “certified” advocates for this charge 50$-150 per HOUR….plus travel costs and so on, which iin one case I know of personally, the “Advocate” would have charged over $10,000 for a one-two day court appearance.

I am not sure that your “advocate” must be A “certified” advocate, but if it is, ANYONE with $500 can become “certified” with as little as an 18 hour course from any number of on-line “certification” agencies…sort of like getting on-line ministerial credentials I believe as there are no federal guidelines about what “certification” has to consist of.

Your PTSD is a RESULT of him stabbing you–DUH! So your problems are HIS FAULT…that’s why he is in jail. Your KIDS’S PTSD iis a result of HIM STABBING YOU…DUH! So I think you should counter his suit of wanting all these visitation and parental rights with TERMINATION OF ALL HIS PARENTAL RIGHTS because of what he has done to you and your kids. So I would think your kids’ therapists might testify that having to see him would be detrimental to their well being.

I think his outrageous (under the circumstances) suit ought to merit him a total loss of parental rights so LOOK AT THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY, Denise. This may be a blessing in disguise that because his requests are so outrageous under the circumstances that he will be denied ALL parental “rights”!!!

Then you and the kiddies move and change your names! BTW when he comes up for parole in 2-3 years, PROTEST HIS PAROLE, contact me and I will discuss how to do this and Donna will help and we will have letters from all over the world streaming in to the parole board against his parole. We can possibly keep him in there another 16 years!


Yes, Legal abuse advocates charge for their services, as any professional does. However, they don’t cost as much as lawyers. As was stated in the article Fact v. Feeling, many people bring ALL their problems to their lawyers and end up wasting the lawyers’ time – at $350 per hour.

A good legal abuse advocate will help the client figure out which issues should be brought to the lawyer and which should not. And, the advocate’s only job during a court appearance is to focus on the client, and make sure the client is able to participate fully – heading off efforts by the opposition to turn her (or him) into an emotional mess in front of the judge.

BDKR – Lovefraud is well aware that there are female sociopaths, and that they are just as damaging as male sociopaths. Most articles on and the Lovefraud blog refer to sociopaths as “he or she.” We also have a section of articles related to female sociopaths:

Still, statistically, there are more male sociopaths than female.
About 80% to 90% of our readers are women who have been involved with sociopathic men. So they are just describing their experience.

Welcome – I’m glad Lovefraud is helpful to you.

Ox Drover

Donna, my problem with the “legal advocates” for PTSD is the “certification” process which consists of from 18 to 20 hours of “training” and one site suggests that they should charge 50-150 dollars an hour for their advocacy. I really don’t think a person with 18-20 hours of training should qualify for ANY “job” that pays $50 per hour up to $150—if so, I would like to get a job that pays that well.

I am acquainted personally with a case where a person going to court in a particularly bad custody case, where both she and her son have PTSD from the constant harassment of her x and the price for a 1-2 day trial would have been about $10,000 for these “services” as an advocate.

While I am totally FOR people charging a reasonable fee for what they do, and I realize that attorneys can and do charge hundreds of dollars per hour, and some “preachers” get millions of dollars a year for spreading the gospel of Jesus, I don’t think it is right to gouge people who are already down on the ground.

If it took a 4 year degree to get “certified” as a Legal Advocate that might in my opinion entitle someone to $50 per hour and expenses, but a 18 to 20 HOUR “training” course? Nah! That won’t fly for me paying someone $50-150 per hour.

Oh, by the way the, “Legal Advocate” my friend contacted also gives 18 hour “certification” courses for $500 and suggested that my friend could go to one of them and have a new career charging others $50-150 per hour. So, do I think some of the people who are presenting themselves as “certified legal advocates” are SCAMMERS, yep, that be it.


OX, I remember. I wrote a letter on your behalf 🙂 The latest is that the ex has also filed a PCRA petition, claiming he was under the influence of pain meds thus he didn’t know what he was doing when he took his plea! he’s tryin right now to GET OUT! I wanted to try to have his parental rights REVOKED completely and was pretty much told i’d lose! WHY? Why would I lose?

Ox Drover

Thanks Denise, for writing the letter. I can’t “believe” you would have any trouble getting his parental rights revoked in full, but I don’t “believe” what our courts have become either.

Is there anything the lovefraud community can do? Anyone we can write to? Does your area have a VINE network? I think the whole US does and they notify you any time a perp is about to get out. They were VERY helpful to me when I was protesting the parole of the Trojan Horse Psychopath, in fact the woman gave me the number of a state law that prohibited the parole board from paroling a sex offender to a half way house.

See if there are any VICTIM SERVICES in your state, and BTW I know the woman who is president of NOVA. Contact me off the blog at oxdrover1946 at g mail dot com and I will put you in contact with her. She has been very helpful to me.

Good luck and stay strong! God bless and my prayers for you.


Thx OX, I did email you. and who is NOVA? and yes i’d love the contact info

Ox Drover

National Organization for victim assistance

I would think as a stabbing victim with your X in prison you would definitely qualify…contact them and I will also put you in contact with the attorney who is also past president of Parents of Murdered Children…both her parents were murdered in 1982.


I have an attorney, that’s not an issue. I don’t know what anyone at lovefraud can do, i wish I did? i want someone to give me the solution to keeping this psychopath away from my kids and keeping him in JAIL as long as possible.

Ox Drover

Denise I wasn’t suggesting that she be your attorney, she is here in Arkansas anyway, just that she IS an attorney as well as advocate for victims and survivors of murdered loved ones. She was also formerly a parole board member in California…and just her KNOWLEDGE and her advocacy connections might be helpful to you. She has put me into contact with folks that I think can help me, like the guy in the Houston TX major’s office who is with POMC

No, this woman is just a GREAT CONNECTION RESOURCE and she “gets it!”

Ox Drover

ps. she also contacted a lot of folks to write letters for me too, and I am sure she would for a parole hearing for your case as well. Plus, se wrote a BANG UP GREAT letter directly to the parole board.

Distressed Grandmother

I also want you to know that there are female Spaths. They can also be very charming women with there claws out if you step on there Toes.
Oxy I just got to love you and admire you! You have such a good way of presenting your feelings.You stand hard by them and yet do not ever do it in a offensive way! God I wished I had your gift.
I have hoof and mouth disease. Every time I speak it come out all wrong. Oh yes that is because I am talking to the wrong people and they feed off and twist my words.
This article reminds me so much of what I have been through except not with a husband. The children are not protected and you are right it is almost impossible to prove a spath is a spath with out proof.The legal system will not put out mega dollars for assessments we all know they can even fool psychiatrists and those test they give. They can pass lie detector tests. There are a lot of nasty people out there that have behavior disorders but there are also a lot of people with behavior disorders that have a heart of gold. Neither one of these should be parents in most cases but with the proper help they make great loving parents the good hearted ones. All they need is a spouse that is capable to pick up the slack. Then I see what my grandchildren go through. It is not the court system we have to change it is the child welfare act that has to change. The people we have to get to see this is our politicians. We have to come up with a plan to prove that it will save them dollars to implement child protection from abusive parents or parent. When you can prove that, this is when you may see results.The biggest thing the government worries about is law suits. This is why many of these kids are not dealt with properly. I could save a lot of children if I just had the money the government wastes on covering there butts instead of doing what is right. I hope the very best in getting the courts to see Spaths for who and what they are but it will be a long battle but anything is possible if you have the determination and support.

Ox Drover

Dear Grandmother,

If you don’t think I have offended folks…in real life and on this blog…you just don’t know! LOL I’ve got hoof in mouth myself sometimes…not all the time, just some times. Sometimes it is because I don’t say something right, or sometimes it is because I tell the truth and someone doesn’t want to hear it and sometiimes it is just because I’m WRONG! LOL

I can see since you came here though that you have healed, the situation hasn’t changed, but YOU have–and that’s all we can do, to change ourselves. Hang on, keep your faith and keep on praying for those kiddies. (((Hugs)))

Distressed Grandmother


I will keep praying for those kiddies and many more! I will also pray for you and Good outcomes.
God Bless!


It’s an easy fix. My spath told the court I was an alcoholic, and they allowed him to randomly test me at his expense. It was ordered, though of course he never utilized it. Simply make the same provision for a spath. If he or she is accused, allow the other parent the opportunity to pay for an exam. If they’re not, they have nothing to worry about, right? I’d have taken out a second mortgage to pay for a thorough exam if I was given the same opportunity he was given.


I am the adult child of a mother who was quite severely borderline pd and narcissistic pd, with a smattering of antisocial or ‘spath behaviors thrown into the mix as well.
Plus obsessive-compulsive pd behaviors.

My mother was never formally diagnosed until long after I became an adult; my younger sister and I suffered chronic emotional abuse and even physical abuse from our mother during our vulnerable formative years. We were both physically afraid of our own mother, and each of us suffered long-term emotional injuries (ptsd, depression, zero self esteem, avoidant pd, etc.)

Our father was a kindly but non-confrontational enabler of our mother’s domineering, controlling, abusive behaviors and received about as much abuse as we kids did. For God only knows what reason, they remained married for life.

But if my parents had divorced when my Sister and I were still minors, we would have been automatically given to our mother/our abuser, and would have been raised without the even minor mitigating influence of our dad’s presence in the household.

So, I think that in any custody litigation, it ought to be a requirement that the court orders each parent to undergo a thorough psychiatric examination AND THEN supervise and monitor the family after custody has been determined to see if the children are doing OK or are deteriorating emotionally because they are now in the full sole custody of a parent who chronically abuses them.

Its just as likely that the mother is the abusive, toxic parent as it is likely to be the father. And while its common for psychopaths to be able to fool psychiatrists and judges, the effects of being raised by a psychopathic pd parent are not so easy to disguise. In custody cases, its the children who need to be carefully observed and protected from covert abuse by their own personality disordered and/or psychopathic parents.

Ox Drover

Babs, your suggestion is an EXCELLENT ONE but unfortunately, the cost $$$$ of such monitoring would be prohibitive…and as it is, the child protective services doesn’t monitor the KNOWN CASES OF ABUSE OF CHILDREN well enough, much less “normal” divorce cases. But if it could be impemented your suggestion is GREAT!

I’m sorry that you had such a childhood, but at least now that you understand what went on, you can work on healing and “reparenting” yourself. It isn’t easy but we can do it. My egg donor wasn’t quite a “bad” as your egg donor, but I did have a wonderful step father that did mitigate my egg donor’s lack of nurturing quite a bit and I am glad for that.


This looks fascinating, but why is so much P research buried behind a pay-wall? Not just this research but lots of other stuff.


I noticed alot of these posts were a few years old. I am currently going through hell with a man that has betrayed me and my boys. His alcohol and his cheating Patterns have finally surfaced and not only has he taken away alot of my resources in order to gain help and move on but he is deliberately dragging my name through the mud. 100% on a smear campaign. I was in an accident and he was all for helping me fix my car well this was the perfect opportunity to gain control over me. Not only did he rip the whole front end off but then texted me how his garage was closed meaning I was Sol. I am beyond words at the things he does. He will leave and take the electricity meter with him so me and my kids will have no power. He will cut off water when. He leaves so that we will have no water. He drinks every night and stays out in garage on his phone texting women while me and boys are inside. He even told me he wants to destroy me. Last night he stole my purse. I called cops to file a report and because I had no proof it was him there was nothing they could do. After the cop left he texted me saying my purse was on table and that j should learn to lock my car door as if he found my purse. No he deliberately took it knowing I would need it for gas, etc. He wants to make my life a living hell and it really hurts me as this man was someone I put my trust in. So now I am at a loss. I have a rental that I pay for daily and he has 3 cars but will not let me drive one to save me money. He is not there for me at all. He only adds to my distress. All I can do is keep praying that somehow someway justice will be served one day. I’ve never felt so much hate from a man I have spent over 10 years with. The pain is real but I know I have to keep my head up because he wants me to struggle and he wants to see me down. I could not do such things to my worst enemy let alone someone you claim to love. Now I just need to somehow get my car fixed as it is costing me daily to rent. Please say a prayer for me. Idk why I’m having to go through this and I keep telling myself there must be a reason. I keep looking for that light at the end of the tunnel but have yet to see one. God bless you all and for all those that have been in my shoes I would love to hear how you came out on the other end of this hell. It really is hell on earth to endure such heartache and deliberate betrayals.

Melhb53 – I am so sorry for you situation. Unfortunately, what you are describing is typical sociopathic harassment. Please understand that he wants to get a reaction out of you. So if nothing else, teach yourself to stop reacting. He is having fun by getting you upset, so take away his fun by not getting upset – at least not letting him know that you are upset. Express your anger and frustration privately. Maybe if you take his fun away, he’ll leave you alone.


which is why I don’t attend birthday parties for grandkids, or other occasions for grandkids, when I know my ex will be present. watching him be ‘proud grampa’ and me staying away from him, would just wreck the occasion anyway. I tried it one time, and I was an emotional basketcase, and was called ‘a coward’ by my twin grown sons for being afraid of him! That did it. Why give him any new ammunition for put-downs of me, when I’m not around to defend myself? Our sons continue to put pictures of my ex and they/or the kids on my Facebook page. I have told them NOT to, but it goes on anyway. All I can is look and NO comments. (and do my best not to go back and look at pictures another time(s). He tried to ‘friend me’, but I did block that and his current wife’s ‘to be friends’ as well.


Hi Helhb53, I just want to add that you are NOT alone. I am so glad that you start a search online because you know that he is not normal and I am equally glad that you found our way to Lovefraud.

What can you do?

First recognize that you are in a abusive relationship!

Recognize that he is emotionally & mentally abusing you.

Reach out to your counties National Domestic Abuse Center to talk with a free counselor & ask them for your local abuse center numbers then go.

This will be one of the best things that you have ever done for yourself.

In the USA the National Domestic Violence hotline number is 800-799-SAFE. If you are not in the US just google for your county’s number.

I would also recommend that you set up an appointment at your local abuse center to talk with a free counselor & also attend their woman group meeting they will really help you to see that YES you are in a emotional & mentally abusive relationship.

The man is trying to control every aspect of your life…he is taking away basic needs such as your water & electric. This is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR!! This is ABUSE!!

It’s time that you take steps out of this abusive relationship. YOU ARE NOT ALONE WE HEAR YOU!! WE ARE HERE FOR YOU TOO!!

Do a search on the top right side of Lovefraud for:

Gas lighting abuse

No Contact Rule

(also google these words with the word sociopath and then with the word narcissist)

You have been brain washed by this abuser to accept his controlling ways. So it is vitally important that you open your mind up from his brain washing. How do you open you mind up?

EDUCATE yourself on sociopath abuse.

Where do you start to educate yourself? Right here on love fraud.

If you go to the top of this site look under every red & gray tab. READ, READ, READ everything up there that Donna has posted. When you are sad, angry, crying come to love fraud & read. it will help you to sort out your mind.

Also keep a hidden journel of what this man had done to you & what he is still doing on a daily bases. Ask a friend to also do the same. This can be used in court.

KEEP CALLING THE POLICE EVERYTHING HE DOES SOMETHING THAT IS ABUSIVE TOWARDS YOU!! Why? so that you have documentation in court of the craziness abusiveness he is doing to you.

Have your friends & family come to this site also. They too need to be educated!! The sociopath smear campaign that you mate is doing is EXACTLY what a sociopath does!! They try to isolate you from your support network so that they have control over you fully. And they also do it so that they will not be exposed.

KEEP REACHING OUT FOR HELP!! call the National domestic hotline to talk with a free counselor and go to the free counseling sessions & women group meetings that they also offer for free. THIS WILL BE ONE OF THE GREATEST GIFTS YOU HAVE EVER GIVEN YOURSELF.


Keep posting here & vent everything out here at love fraud. IT really does help also to open up your mind from all the brain washing that this sociopath is doing to you every second of the day.


Take care.


ps check with your insurance company because a lot of insurance policies alot money for rental car until your car can be fixed.

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