Lovefraud recently received the following email from a man whom we’ll call “Andrew.”
I recently met a lady out of the blue after I had sat at home alone for 2 years. She is the victim of a sociopath—reads & posts on the Lovefraud site trying to heal. She says she can’t tell me all the damage done & I don’t need to know—it’s her business unless she feels she needs to share.
She had cabin fever—had to get out for a night—hence our meeting. Well I had basically given up on finding someone until I met her. We instantly clicked. It was so good for 3 weeks—making plans of fun things to do. I thought it would help her heal—to go have fun again.
I think she started liking me too much in that short period of time—got scared & slammed on the brakes. She says she needs time, but truly values my friendship & adores me. I’m trying to give her “time.” It’s so hard when she lit up my life for a while.
She wants to see me again, but doesn’t know when.
I have no motives other than to get to know her & help her get over the past. She might just be the one if we spend the time to know one another.
I have read the Lovefraud blog trying to understand—some really sad stories.
What should I do?
In the thousands of emails that I’ve received, this is the first time someone has asked this question (which I’ve paraphrased) how do you approach a potential romantic partner when that person has been burned by a sociopath? I appreciate that fact that Andrew cared enough to ask the question.
I will answer the question assuming that everything is exactly as presented—a woman, whom we’ll call Caroline, had a terrible experience with a sociopath and is skittish about opening herself to another man. Andrew honestly likes Caroline, and wants to get to know her better. I will assume that neither Andrew nor Caroline is actually a predator who is looking for a new source of supply.
This, of course, is something that Caroline, and everyone else who has been betrayed and damaged by a sociopath, needs to understand and believe: There are good people in the world. Yes, as many as 12 percent of the population are social predators—sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, borderlines. But that still means that 88 percent of the world’s people are not disordered, and are capable of having a loving relationship.
Understand where she’s been
So, Andrew, the first thing for you to understand is that Caroline has been through the meat grinder. She’s experienced betrayal that has rocked her to her core. She’s certainly suffered emotional and psychological abuse, and may have also suffered verbal, physical, sexual and financial abuse. In fact, it may be a miracle that she is still standing.
If you’ve never experienced this level of betrayal—most people haven’t—it may be hard for you to believe what she’s gone through. Should she tell you anything about what happened, it may sound like a bad movie, and you may be inclined to think she is exaggerating. I assure you, when someone is involved with a sociopath, anything is possible. I’ve collected more than 3,200 cases, and many of the stories should be made into movies. You can’t make this stuff up.
Caroline, however, is accustomed to not being believed. She may have gone to court and to the police, and they didn’t believe her story. It’s possible her friends or her own family do not believe her. So one of the best things you can do is believe her. It will help her feel validated.
Go slow
Andrew, you will need take things very slowly. It’s likely that the sociopath swept into Carolin’es life in a whirlwind romance—if you call all the time, if you are overly exuberant about wanting to see her, it may set off alarm bells, because that’s how the sociopath acted. Let her set the pace. Keep things light.
Understand that trust needs to be earned. This may be why Caroline got into trouble in the first place—she trusted too readily. Now, she may have gone too far in the other direction, and resolved to never trust anyone again. This is an unhealthy position, because we do need to be able to trust in order to live a good life. But you may not know how much progress Caroline has made in regaining her ability to trust.
So if you want to move forward, you need to be trustworthy. Tell her the truth about everything. Keep your promises. Call when you say you’re going to call, and show up when you promise that you’ll show up. In fact, I hope that’s how you live your life anyway.
It may not work
Finally, it is possible that Caroline simply is not recovered enough to think about another involvement. If she tells you that she really can’t be in a relationship, don’t argue with her, and don’t take it personally. You may just need to accept it and move on.
But if Caroline indicates that does want to get to know you, albeit slowly, getting closer will probably be worth the wait. Before hooking up with the sociopath, Caroline was probably loving, giving, caring, responsible, dynamic and empathetic—because that’s the type of person that sociopaths target. So if she’s able to find herself, and open herself—well, it could be rewarding for both of you.
Lovefraud readers: If you have any more suggestions for Andrew, please post them.
I haven’t read all the posts on this thread, but I gather there’s some concern about Andrew’s character or behavior. When I read Donna’s article — and thank you, Donna, for bringing up this new topic — I too was struck by Andrew’s story. For a few reasons.
One was that he clearly was having trouble giving up the pleasure he got from Catherine’s company. She rang his fun bell. And it was hard for him to acquiesce when she wanted to pull away in what seemed to him like prime time in the relationship.
I can understand that. He clearly did not understand the reality of recovery from a sociopathic relationship, or he would have expected this. At the same time, I was impressed his willingness to work for the relationship, reading LoveFraud and trying to understand what was going on in her terms.
In the end, probably the most meaningful thing about his letter was the fact that he asked for advice with some very mixed motivations. He wanted to help her get over the past, but his reason was he that thought she might be the one.
It struck me as very romantic, but in a completely wrong-headed way. What he doesn’t seem to understand is that what she needs right now — even if he could give her enough space, compassion and tolerance for her distrust and need to rage to establish a supportive relationship with her — isn’t what she’s going to want when she’s better. Essentially he’s volunteering to be her nurse/therapist, until she doesn’t need therapy anymore, and then he imagines he can switch to being a peer to this “well” woman as she emerges.
This is a dependency nightmare on both side of the relationship. And he sounds too naive to recognize that. Or maybe just too codependent at base to understand that it’s not fair to him. Or maybe, as has been suggested here, it’s just a clever play by a sociopath to establish control over someone who’s wounded and not fully able to defend her boundaries. (Although frankly, that sounds like the least likely of the options. He’s too willing to adjust himself and, I suspect, a little too needy.)
People who are in traumatic recovery can be extraordinarily attractive, because they have their own reasons for wanting to escape the recovery drag and have some fun once in a while. They can also be extremely open about their needs, because they have such huge needs for support, human contact, fun, light in their lives. But they can’t maintain the happy-happy personna when they’re still processing through the trauma. So they switch from being wide open to contact and pleasure, to being withdrawn and self-protective. It can be very hard on the person who’s gotten involved with them when they’re in escape mode.
I’ve had two of these relationships. One was after my husband died when I was in my mid-twenties. It’s embarrassing to even recount it now, but while I was medicating myself with alcohol, I started something with a sweet Irish bartender I’d always liked, spent a couple of weeks escaping my life with him. When I finally brought him back to where I lived, I woke up the next morning to find myself in bed with him, though “what were you thinking, Kathy?”, and summarily sent him home.
It was just the craziness of grief. For me. For him it was more serious and sadder, and I understand it took him a while to get over it. I can say that he should have known, because he knew I was recently widowed. But he was fundamentally a shy, soft-hearted and lonely man, and he thought he’d hit the jackpot. It may have been silly, but it was understandable.
The other one was just a few years ago, when I was first trying to get over the five-year relationship with the sociopath. Everyone was telling me I needed to get out of myself, and restart my life. I met a man who fit all of my requirements at the time — articulate, literate, affectionate and really kind. We did things together, had fun, became sexual and then very quickly it all fell apart. On my side. All of a sudden, I began thinking about things in his past that made me suspicious of him. I didn’t like the way he came on to me when he want to make love (too passive). When I tried to talk with him about these things, I didn’t like the way he handled the conversations. So I picked a fight and stopped going out with him. The whole thing was over in about a month.
He’s still a friend. We still go out occasionally. But what turned me off about him turned out to be an accurate assessment of our incompatibility in romantic terms. Fortunately, I didn’t break this one’s heart. He’d been through enough in his own life to understand what traumatic recovery involves. That’s not to say I haven’t hurt his feelings with my prickliness and misplaced anger.
And that, I think, is my point. When we’re full of difficult feelings — anger, grief, distrust, insecurity — we’re in no condition for a romantic relationship. Unless we accept the fact that we’re probably going to attract someone who’s in similar condition, and we will work out our issues on each other in ways that eventually are going to be emotionally convoluted and messy.
In recovery we are dealing with a ton of unmet needs, not to mention all the confusion of trying to understand what the real story was, and who was wrong, and what we’re supposed to be learning, all the while we’re just plain in pain. I remember, when I was in all that pain, being terrified of exactly what I might attract, if I pursued what I really wanted at that time. Someone to comfort me, to tell me that my ex was a bad person, to take over things I needed help with, to be my rock while I was feeling like roadkill. It was a perfect storm of neediness, just right for attracting an even worse sociopath than the one I just got rid of.
To me, the main thing about Andrew is that he doesn’t understand what he’s dealing with. And the only thing he needs to know is that she’s in a different world than he is right now, and he’s got to just let her go. The timing is wrong. Maybe they’ll meet again when she’s come out the other side of her healing. But most likely they won’t, and even if they did, she won’t be the same fun girl he remembers. Because she won’t be the gay escapee anymore, she’ll be in her new life and expecting something different from her friends and lovers than she ever did before.
Maybe he can use the experience to learn what he loves in a woman. Or cherish the snapshots in his mind, if he ever doubts that life has some good times in store for him.
Just not with her. Not now, and probably not ever. It’s tough, but people in recovery can be heartbreakers. To me, that’s the difficult truth in this story.
Darwinsmom
QUOTE: Bottom line: there is no way to relate with someone in an adult and responsible manner when boundaries aren’t respected.
Excellent point and one tat we all need to be conscious of. If we are not able to establish and maintain boundaries in our relationships (whatever kind of relationship it is, friend, lover, family…) then we are not going to be able to function in a healthy manner.
Boundaries are in effect, RESPECT for yourself. WE must respect ourselves and insist that others respect us as well.
This applies not only to relationships with psychopaths, but with EVERYONE we deal with in our lives, or choose NOT to deal with.
Ox!
Wow, thank you for sharing that!!!!! It’s terrible to feel alone when you know you’ve been touched by evil. And to be kicked out by the cruel Matilda was just too much. She (he?) followed me around every single post and bullied me for my take on things – it didn’t matter what the topic. It was like we had to all be little whimpy subscribers and beware if you have a strong opinion.
I wrote Sam about being booted (re the suicide topic), and he responded by saying he does not own the website, a lady did, he said. Well, all of his articles were smeared everywhere on the sight, and people lined up begging him for help and advice. It was really sad.
I think that sight is down now isn’t it?
Anyway, it has made me very aware that spaths can be anywhere. Buyer beware.
Thanks again for your input about the other website!
(((Hugs)))
Ox…P.S. I did see that film on television; and I read his book. It was the worst, most disjointed read I have ever encountered.
(((hugs)))
Kathleen,
As always, words of wisdom, delivered with graciousness. Thank you for that. Good to see you back.
Speaking up,
Not sure if the site is up or down….but it was SAM ALL OVER IT and its purpose was to SELL HIS BOOK. He is a monster.
His phony “Doc” and everything about him is a con…and that site was as well, but when you dont’ know anything about anyone, you accept things at face value. I no longer accept things (or people) at face value.
I am CAUTIOUS, and I look for red flags, and if I see them I HONOR them.
Sure, I would like to find “true love” again…but I am not going to “take a chance” on someone who is waving red flags.
A guy who used to post here a lot and only does once in a while now, Matt, is an attorney, and he got involved with an ex con who took him for a ride financially and emotionally. He got loose from the guy and is now in a stable relationship with a normal guy. He had the 4 “tions” that he had to ahve in a relationship after that bad one.
Educa-tion
Transporta-tion
habita-tion
And I can’t remember what the last “tion” was but it meant “had a job” LOL
My own list of “requirements” for people in my life, lovers or even friends are
HONESTY, COMPASSION, RESPONSIBILITY, etc.
If a person is dishonest, why would I want them in my life?
If a person is not compassionate, why would I want them in my life?
If a person is not responsible, why would I want them in my life?
Sure, no one is perfect, we all do and say things we shouldn’t but over all, a person who shows that they are not honest, compassionate and responsible are not the kind of persons you would want to have an intimate relationship with.
I dated a guy a few times that I thought was a “great match” for me, lots of things in common, and a widower…but then he showed he was NOT RESPONSIBLE….at the time I had a little plane, hadn’t been flown in a while, and had no insurance and wasn’t “legal” (no annual inspections etc) and he wanted to take it for a “joy ride”—kept insisting he would not crash it. I kept saying “NO! it isn’t legal” and I realized he was not responsible. No responsible person would drive a car without insurance much less an airplane, and who would I be if I ALLOWED someone to drive my car without a license or insurance? Much less an airplane that may or may not have even been safe to fly after sitting for a couple of years?
Well, didn’t hear from the guy for a while, then one day he showed up at my door step “just in the neighborhood and thought I’d drop by” sort of thing…just casually mentioned he had gotten married 4 months before and it wasn’t working out…DUH??? I cut the visit short and haven’t seen him since, but his showing up again after his marriage made me realize just how VALID my perception of his irresponsibility was.
I could name 50 different times I have honored the red flags and been so grateful later that I did. When people cross boundaries or try to, we need to honor those boundaries and realize that it is up to us to listen to our guts! The RED FLAGS of people’s behaviors tell us something about their characters.
That’s what LF is all about is helping each other learn these red flags and realize that we have to protect ourselves before we get into trouble, rather than clean up the mess AFTER.
I left this thread to do household chores before a doctor’s appointment and found that I was TOTALLY lost when I returned! I’ve read all the posts (whew!) and “an explanation post” of Andrew’s was mentioned. Can someone please tell me which post that is? The ONLY thing that I can find from Andrew is the email that DONNA shared. IF the email message is the ONLY communication from Andrew, it seems that we certainly share very different interpretations of it!
I may get banned indefinitely from Lovefraud for what I am about to write but I have the best of intentions and pray that it will provide those who are struggling with some hope. And, ANDREW, if you’re lurking here, I hope you will find this helpful in understanding where Caroline is coming from. I’ve never had the ability to be brief and hope that some of you can bear with me long enough to read all that I’m about to write.
No, I haven’t forgotten how I felt when I learned I had been duped by a sociopath and NEVER will. Nor have I forgotten when my hurt turned into the worst humiliation I’ve ever felt in my life, the loss of dignity, questioning my sanity, suicidal thoughts not due to the hurt but the humiliation of having to face people after “allowing” myself to be deceived SO badly, the insult of my intelligence, feeling that my co-workers and everyone else surely now viewed me as incompetent, the TOTAL lack of support and understanding from my friends and family who told me to get over it, questioned WHY I would shed a single tear over a man like him, and my BEST friend scolded me in a very harsh manner by telling me to STOP acting like a victim because I had not been RAPED! And, it seemed that nearly every day during this time, a well-meaning friend called with a new story of deceit regarding my “perfect loving husband” of 8 years. The hurt left quickly but the stories led to deeper humiliation as did the lack of support from others and I suddenly found myself enraged to the degree that I honestly FEARED what I might be capable of. I had never felt that way in my life and kept asking myself WHY I felt the way I did. I actually toyed with the idea of killing the man and then myself and fantasized about slow torturous ways of punishing him! I never admitted that to anyone except a counselor because I realized after learning about my ex’s outrageous behavior that he surely had a lot of enemies and I certainly didn’t want to be the prime suspect if something should happen to him! And, I did NOT and do NOT believe in violence because I was a victim of it for many years.
As I’ve said before, it was a counselor who saved me from MYSELF. After the educated me to the best of his ability about sociopaths and suggested Lovefraud, I had to come to terms with much more than my ordeal with my ex spath husband’s behavior. Finally, I learned just what it was that was “wrong” with my mother after 46 years of abuse from her as well as face the fact that she most likely was responsible for my father’s untimely and questionable death 30 years ago, and also, just what it was that was “wrong” with my first husband of 15 years that made him an abusive alcoholic whose beating me seemed to be his fav sport and who later committed suicide and ATTEMPTED to take my son and me to the grave with him. After realizing that these two people were full blown sociopaths, my last ex was small potatoes.
Also, I posted a few months ago about the behavior of my son’s girlfriend, the mother of my only grandchild, whom I believe to be a full-blown sociopath and finally stopped posting when it seemed that most of those responding to my post felt that my son was a sociopath, too, mostly because of the behavior HE was displaying under the influence of the spath girlfriend! I have to ask all of you, did you become the person that the spath in YOUR life wanted you to be? I did and that does not make ME a sociopath. They gain complete control over us as well as attempt to consume our very souls. That steal our identity in a fashion that no identity theft protection can prevent!
I raised my son to be a caring and compassionate person. He also witnessed the great lengths that I went to in an effort to either “help” or “fix” the broken people in my life including his own father who he still carries a great deal of guilt over his death because he has never been able to bring himself to grieve for the loss of him because the man made our lives a living hell! Now, that my son is older, he seems to be able to understand that his lack of grief is “OKAY”! However, much like I once was, he does NOT the ability to recognize an spath because he spent most of his life exposed to a father and a grandmother and sadly views spath behavior as a bit of an inconvenience but NORMAL at the same time as I once did! After learning that my mother is a sociopath, I no longer had to question WHY I managed to marry two! Society teaches us that there is nothing greater than a mother’s love so of course, in my mind, any man or ANYONE who treated me like my mother HAD to love me!
After having said all that, I can’t stress enough how I had to come to terms with WHAT it was about ME that made me a magnet for sociopaths once I learned how to better recognize their behavior. I could have spent the rest of my life being outraged by their behavior and treatment of me and continue to be a victim or I could focus on changing the things about myself that made me a target. I chose the latter. And, yes, it took some time to realize that I needed to work on myself. At one time, I even resigned myself to spend the rest of my life alone although that decision stemmed from fear of my own judgement because I just KNEW that I’d snag another sociopath. I never REALLY wanted to be alone. I stopped reading everything I could get my hands on about sociopaths and posting on Lovefraud and I told my counselor that I wanted to work on ME. In no way am I suggesting that people STOP educating themselves or seeking support from Lovefraud but I was OBSESSED with the topic of sociopaths for awhile! It was only after realizing this, that I started to make progress. But, I couldn’t have done that without having learned about sociopaths FIRST. I am no longer a people pleaser without the word NO in my vocabulary and am out of the “fix it” business. I’m still a compassionate person and willing to help others but had to find the proper balance. And, it was actually pretty easy once I set my mind to it…if a person asks for help over and over again and makes no effort to help themselves, RUN! And, it’s also not that difficult to recognize someone that blames EVERYTHING that has ever went wrong for their poor misfortunate selves on others, RUN! And, if an unreasonable request is made of me, NO is the answer.
My point is that you WILL recover, and learn to recognize spaths and other similar personality disorders, and in time, come to trust others and yourself enough to develop healthy loving relationships with the many good people in this world. It’s scary, but I think you’ll be surprised by how much you’ve learned from your own and other’s experiences and how you’ll be able to recognize the “bad” people .
And, finally, back to Andrew’s email and explanations behind my interpretation of it. He writes: “I recently met a lady out of the blue after I had sat at home alone for 2 years. (HE’S LONELY) She is the victim of a sociopath—reads & posts on the Lovefraud site trying to heal. She says she can’t tell me all the damage done & I don’t need to know—it’s her business unless she feels she needs to share. (NOT GETTING AN EXPLANATION FROM HER AND DIDN’T SEEM TO PRESSURE HER FOR ONE…PROBABLY HAS NO IDEA ABOUT THE DAMAGE A SOCIOPATH CAN DO AND IS LOOKING TO UNDERSTAND IT FROM LOVEFRAUD WHERE SHE TOLD HIM THAT SHE WAS GETTING UNDERSTANDING…MEDICAL DESCRIPTIONS FOCUS MORE ON THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A SOCIOPATH AND CERTAINLY NOT THE IMPACT ON THE VICTIM LIKE LOVEFRAUD DOES.) She had cabin fever—had to get out for a night—hence our meeting. Well I had basically given up on finding someone until I met her. (SUGGESTS THAT NO ONE HAS REALLY GRABBED HIS ATTENTION UNTIL SHE CAME ALONG). We instantly clicked. It was so good for 3 weeks—making plans of fun things to do. (LED TO BELIEVE THEY WOULD BE SPENDING MORE TIME TOGETHER IN THE FUTURE) I thought it would help her heal—to go have fun again. (SEEMED TO WANT TO HELP HER HEAL…HAVING FUN SEEMS REASONABLE ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BELIEVE THAT…BUT BY SAYING HE “THOUGHT” TELLS ME THAT HE REALIZED IT DIDN’T AND IS NOW SEEKING ADVICE ON HOW HE CAN HELP. I DON’T THINK HE REALIZES THAT THERE’S NOTHING HE CAN DO TO HELP HER HEAL.)
I think she started liking me too much in that short period of time—got scared & slammed on the brakes. She says she needs time, but truly values my friendship & adores me. (ANDREW IS QUOTING CAROLINE HERE…HIS SENTENCE BEGINS WITH SHE SAYS AND I BELIEVE HE CONCLUDED THAT SHE STARTED LIKING HIM TOO MUCH BASED ON HER OWN WORDS) I’m trying to give her “time.” It’s so hard when she lit up my life for a while. (HE FEELS THAT SHE’S SPECIAL AND ANXIOUS TO ENJOY HER COMPANY AGAIN…HE MISSES HER.)
She wants to see me again, but doesn’t know when. (HE’S NOT READY TO ABANDON THE IDEA OF FUTURE INVOLVEMENT WITH HER BECAUSE HER SAYING THAT SHE WANTED TO SEE HIM AGAIN LEFT HIM WITH HOPE.)
I have no motives other than to get to know her & help her get over the past. She might just be the one if we spend the time to know one another. (AFTER READING OUR HORRIFIC STORIES, HE PROBABLY FELT THE NEED TO STRESS HIS MOTIVES. AGAIN, AS OF RIGHT NOW, HE SEES HER AS SPECIAL BUT ALSO IS SAYING THAT HE NEEDS TO KNOW HER BETTER, TOO. IF HE HAD OF LIMITED THIS STATEMENT TO HER GETTING TO KNOW HIM BETTER, I WOULD DEFINITELY SEE THAT AS A RED FLAG.)
I have read the Lovefraud blog trying to understand—some really sad stories. (HE SAYS THAT HE IS “TRYING” TO UNDERSTAND WHICH MEANS THAT HE DOESN’T BUT ACKNOWLEDGES THE SADNESS IN WHAT HE HAS READ).
What should I do? (A SOCIOPATH WOULD NEVER NEED TO ASK THIS QUESTION!!!!! THEY KNOW DAMN WELL WHAT TO DO! AND, THEY DON’T WASTE TIME ON AN UNWILLING VICTIM…THEY MOVE TO NEXT ONE AND USUALLY HAVE THE NEXT VICTIM HOOKED BEFORE THEY LEAVE THE PREVIOUS ONE OR SOMETIMES HAVE SEVERAL VICTIMS HOOKED AT THE SAME TIME.)
Donna’s statement: “In the thousands of emails that I’ve received, this is the first time someone has asked this question (which I’ve paraphrased) how do you approach a potential romantic partner when that person has been burned by a sociopath? I appreciate that fact that Andrew cared enough to ask the question.” DONNA SAYS THAT SHE HAS RECEIVED THOUSANDS OF EMAILS AND NO ONE HAS EVER ASKED THIS QUESTION. I CAN BELIEVE THAT BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE DAMAGE THAT A SOCIOPATH CAN DO RECEIVE ABSOLUTELY NO UNDERSTANDING, BELIEVE THAT IT IS THE VICTIM THAT IS CRAZY WHEN WE START REFERRING TO SOMEONE AS A SOCIOPATH, AND IN A LOT OF CASES, SEE US AS DAMAGED GOODS AND RUN AS FAST AND HARD FROM US AS THEY CAN! I BELIEVE THAT ANDREW IS A COMPASSIONATE PERSON AND REALLY ENJOYED CAROLINE’S COMPANY, BELIEVES THAT HE WILL SEE HER AGAIN BECAUSE SHE TOLD HIM THAT SHE WANTED TO SEE HIM AGAIN AND HE WANTS TO EDUCATE HIMSELF TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE DAMAGE AND HOW HE CAN HELP HER HEAL. HE’S ALREADY LEARNED THAT GETTING OUT AND HAVING FUN DIDN’T SEEM TO BE THE ANSWER. AND, DONNA OFFERED HIM ADVICE AND ASKED US TO DO THE SAME AND A LOT OF US ATTACKED HIM FOR ASKING HOW HE COULD HELP. I WOULD HAVE GIVEN ANYTHING IF SOMEONE HAD OF CARED ENOUGH TO ASK SOMEONE AS KNOWLEDGEABLE AS DONNA HOW THEY COULD HELP ME HEAL FROM MY EXPERIENCE WITH SPATHS RATHER THAN ACTING AS THOUGH IT WAS NO BIG DEAL AND THAT I HAD LABELED SOMEONE AS A SOCIOPATH TO GAIN SYMPATHY!
However, knowing that Caroline was targeted by a sociopath also tells me that she is most likely a very compassionate and caring person. I have to wonder if her kind words to Andrew regarding how she felt about him and saying that she wanted to see him again but didn’t know when was really her way of telling him that she isn’t interested in him. IF that is the case, I hope that Caroline will eventually be able to focus on herself and make some changes that will enable her to overcome the fear of disappointing others. I mean no disrespect to Caroline, but base this on the type of people that spaths usually view as easy targets. They take full advantage of caring, compassionate people who enjoy making others happy. It is we who have to learn to distinguish the difference in those that deserve these things from us and those who do not.
OXY! Again, we disagree! LOL! I say this with humor because although we usually have very different viewpoints, your posts ALWAYS make me take a step back and re-evaluate aspects of my own views. It’s people’s differences that make the world an interesting place but can also create a lot of conflict if not respected. I want you to know that I certainly respect you! Are you a pilot? I ask this because my husband is a pilot and we have a small plane. I totally understand about the nut that wanted to fly your plane when it wasn’t legal. Also, did he have a death wish or something? Ain’t no way, my husband would fly a plane that hadn’t been inspected in two years and he’s been a pilot for 30 years! And, he never takes off before doing all the necessary checks even if he refueled it the previous day! Are you SURE this guy was even a licensed pilot? He sounds like an overgrown kid that had been playing with a simulator too long! And, show up on at your door to let you know that his marriage isn’t working out? Geesh! Glad you sent him on his own virtual flight!
Tami, there are TWO posts by “andrew” on page 1 of the comments. You need to scroll down, almost towards the end. In any case the “email” in the article is a watered down version of what andrew posted in this thread later on as an explanation on page 1. The “email” in the article leaves room for the interpretation that the woman was only just pulling away and leaving the door open for another date and that they were still communicating. The explanation in Andrew’s comments reveals that the woman was neither unclear in her actions nor her words, and reveals that the door was already closed for over a week.
This is what I surmise from the info from the email as well as the later explanations of the situation by Andrew: She started dating him under the condition that it would go slow. He agreed to that in words, but seems to have dated her frequently in those 3 weeks or made attempts to communicate with her often in between the dates. His actions were not ‘slow’. She then decided to put the brakes on it. If he didn’t take it slow as he had first attested he would, she would ensure that at least she would take it slow. So she canceled the next planned date and mentioned “time and space” (to be left alone), and left the door open for a new date a week later. Andrew agreed to give her “time and space” in words, but in actions he emailed her several times and texted her in the morning and the evening. Again Andrew said one thing, but acted opposite of it. Caroline did not respond to the emails an texts, ignored them, so Andrew pressed on and asked her what “time and space” actually meant. She eventually told him that it means “no contact”. And that was the last communication from her. By the time this article was written, the “no contact” boundary by Caroline was already a week in effect. And what happens? Andrew writes several emails to Donna asking for help, and Donna suggests to write an article about advice for people who start dating a survivor. I think Donna was under the impression that Andrew and Caroline were still communicating and in contact with each other… but just taking it slow (just like you have this impression Tami). While the subject is of great importance in general, it probably would have been in the best interest for everyone involved if it had been kept general, rather than springing from a particular case (albeit anonymous in name), because now it ended up violating Caroline’s last set up boundary: no contact. The overall result is the story of someone who agreed to boundaries in words but not in action several times, until now, because Andrew hasn’t posted anymore (which is commendable). To me it doesn’t really matter why Andrew’s actions did not fit his verbal agreements (there can be all sorts of reasons while he may still be a good, empathic person with the best intentions). The fact remains though that was his behaviour while dating a survivor, a survivor who does not seem to have a problem anymore with making sure her needs will be met (via gradual boundaries) and recognizing she cannot control the actions of other human beings.
The best advice for anyone dating someone else, survivor or no survivor, is to respect boundaries not just verbally, but in action. If someone wants ‘slow’, you actually go slow. You have a date once in a while (no more than once a week) with little or no communication in between, except perhaps one phone call. And you date to establish a friendship, not to establish a romantic commitment. If someone wants ‘time and space’, you actually give them time and space and do not communicate with the other until the projected time you can. People usually give a head’s up when they think that might be, while they’re requesting for time and space. They will say that right now they have to focus on some project in their life (a job, exams, a move, their child’s needs, etc) and when they estimate this project will be finished or running smoothly. You don’t contact them until that projected time and do your own thing.
When I received a love declaration of my biggest love so far of the past in April, I told him I found it beautiful and was open to it, but I needed time and space to further heal and rebuild my life and that I could only commit to myself for the next months: a move and exams. He respected that and did not contact me until the timing I had prospected. He went on to use his time to heal for himself and make some important decisions for himself, and he did that wisely. In the end, it is now clear to both of us that our life paths will not join together romantically even if we love each other, because it wouldn’t be right for many reasons, one being that one of us would have to supplant our life at the other side of the world. He won’t be able to ‘serve’ life as he feels he must in Belgium (He’s from the US). And I know for several years I won’t ‘serve’ life as I feel I must in Mexico where he’s planning to live now (though I used to think so half a decade ago). But I am absolutely sure that I can trust him to respect me as much as I respect him and we will remain friends, exactly because we respect each other’s decisions and boundaries, irregardless of our perceived loneliness or passion for each other.
I remember not as much that people thought your son was a spath, but rather that as an enabler and his own alcoholic past he was keeping you involved in a toxic way too. I believe the cousin of the ex-spath I was with is a good woman, but she enables him – she would experience abuse of trust by him as well and then be agry but ask me to talk to him and make him see some sense, and when he betrayed my trust she would do anything to “shush” me, not believing it or asking me to do it for her, etc… Even when last Easter he was at the point of marrying his new woman (a year after I realized the thruth and hadn’t been in contact with him for a year) she tried to manipulate me in this way, even claiming that to her I was still the best woman for him in her eyes. And why did she do this? Because I had exposed him a long time ago on a website, and he and his bride-to-be didn’t want Brittish authorities to stumble upon it in order to authorize his green card. She wanted me to get rid of it. Good and empathic people can be manipulative as well. It’s not just something only spaths do. Chances are VERY high that good and empathic people who are involved with a spath and enable them will manipulate others as a part of that enabling. That makes them toxic for as long as they are involved. I blocked the cousin from communicating with me ever since.
Tami, I’ll promise you one thing, a spath do ask questions on what they can do. When their tactics doesn’t work, they seek answers to how to make them work. They change tactics very often and when they can’t find their entry they search for another. I know this from experience. My ex, the same day he discarded me, he asked me how he could get a new girl to attach herself to him by using sex as a weapon. I almost dropped dead when he opened his mouth. I was in total disbelief, I was his girlfriend, he’d just said he wanted to marry me, and THAT question popped out of his mouth! Maybe it’s mostly the younger spath who ask questions because the older ones are more experienced, I don’t know…