By | October 17, 2012 157 Comments

Disarray in the DSM-5

The American Psychiatric Association is in the process of updating its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the DSM-5. This is the “bible” used by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals to diagnosis psychiatric conditions, including antisocial personality disorder. Two members of the committee working on personality disorders have resigned, stating that the proposal displays a “stunning disregard for evidence.”

Dr. Liane Leedom and I had issues with how the first draft described antisocial personality disorder, which was why we conducted a Lovefraud survey back in 2010. Based on the survey results, we submitted Lovefraud’s  comment about sociopaths for the DSM-5. The description was since revised, but apparently there are professionals who are still dissatisfied.

If the professionals can’t agree, no wonder the rest of us are confused.

Two who resigend from DSM-5 explain why, on

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Ox Drover

I was glad to see that these two men stood up and were “counted” by not only resigning when they saw that staying was futile, but that they also “went public” with WHY they resigned.

I have “forever” been frustrated by the lack of reasonable consensus among psychologists and psychiatrists in diagnostic criteria and especially in the NAME of the disorder…yes, no wonder the media paints psychopaths/sociopaths as serial killers and when there are “Snakes in Suits” they are not recognized for the life-destroying demons that they are….they don’t have to shoot, stab or strangle someone to “ruin their lives” completely…only con and manipulate.

Frankly I don’t have any idea that the final product will be any better than the last one which left out the labels psychopathy or sociopathy all together and called what amounted to what we commonly think of by those terms as “Anti-social PD”–but even that was not exactly the same as S/P.

The “diagnostic codes” which are in use are more, I think, INSURANCE REIMBURSEMENT DRIVEN than anything else. When I first went to work in a family medical clinic as a Registered Nurse Practitioner and I got my very own insurance billing and Medicare billing number I wasn’t much interested in “which number” I used for an office visit as long as I got the patient’s CARE right…but let me tell you, the OFFICE MANAGER CURED ME OF THAT right quick!

I had to make sure that the codes matched up with what I did to or for the patient as well as what was charged either to the Insurance co, medicare or to the patient. Not doing so correctly could have put me in prison or given me huge fines.

I also think that in psychology, many of the “diagnostic” code fights and “criteria” for each Diagnosis is EGO driven by those who are on the committees.

My husband used to say that ” A camel is a horse designed by a committee…everyone has to put their own hump on it” I think the new DSM V is starting out to have a lot of “humps” on it but I’m not sure it will “run” very well in the Derby.



What a perfect ending to your post OxD. I love the camel comment.


I just read the article referenced above and the comments of the people who also read it.

It is truley scary. I have to commend the two men who stood with their integrity intact.


Donna, thank you so much for posting this article. One word: YIKES!

The “professionals” are trying to pigeon-hole individuals and the ONLY facts and data that are apparently collected are by the professionals who have “researched” these disordered people under whatever circumstances. They study the individuals under controlled environments and do not observe or interact with them outside of a “professional” capacity. How in the heck can they actually be so arrogant as to believe that there are a “set” of rules or criteria that a “disordered” person must meet in order to be properly diagnosed?!?! REALLLLLLY?!

OxD….LMAO! Holy shitballs – all the panel needs to do is to collect data from SURVIVORS of these individuals! They’ll never collect accurate data from the “disordered,” and they cannot (and, will not) admit this simple fact: predatory individuals can even fool the trained professional.

Donna has an extensive “database” of true experiences and polls that could be useful information for these professionals. I’m certain that other sources could offer the same type of information, as well. The DSM-IV and proposed DSM-V are simply insufficient with regards to “disorders” that involve CHOICES rather than organically-genertated responses or behaviors (schizophrenia, for instance). We know that a schizophrenic cannot help their choices and behaviors if they are severe enough and remain unmedicated and unsupervised. We “KNOW” this. But, there is NO medication, surgery, psychotherapy, religious epiphany, or New Age holistic approach that will even MANAGE behavioral “disorders,” much less CURE them.

What will it take for the “professionals” to simply admit that personality “disorders” are actually “conditions” and that they are, for all intents and purposes, untreatable?! Honestly, how hard is it for these professionals to accept the fact that they are not gods?

TOWANDA for the two members that resigned!!!! That took a lot of courage, conviction, and integrity and these qualities are SORELY lacking in such an ego-infused profession.

Brightest blessings!


As an aside, I actually SNARKED and SNORTED (thanks, OxD!) over the statement that said that the conclusions were “unreadable!” LMAOLMAO!!!! Has anyone ever actually READ a psychological or psychiatric diagnosis?! Of those who have, who was able to clearly understand the language? It’s psychspeak that is reserved – RESERVED, I say – for a private and secretive “society.” Laypeople aren’t invited to understand the language, much less, interprete it.

Really this situation may not have a solution.

As I consider it now, it seems that using the word “Evil” in the DSMV would be the answer. It’s a word that actually encompasses all of the behavior and conditions in the Anti-social PD. Evil is the only thing that describes it all.

But then I remember that I read, “People of the Lie” in 1984 and the word “evil” is what made me discount what I had observed in my spath. He was so nice, how could he be evil? Just because he lied all the time, didn’t make him evil.

Now, I’m of the opinion that a description which doesn’t include the words “shame and envy”, will fall short of the mark. Yes, evil is also spot on, but too many people have an aversion to it. Just like I did.

Well, we are getting closer just by virtue of the dialog. There is hope.


Skylar, you wrote that you don’t believe that there is a solution to this situation, and it struck me like a thunderbolt as to why what you’ve just typed may be a fact.

There is no “solution” to these “disordered” people. So, how can anyone expect to produce a “solution” to even define them? I don’t believe there are enough nouns and adjectives to use as descriptions of their behaviors.

“Evil” is apt, 100%, but most people associate this word in a religious or spiritual context. People can’t just “be evil” without there being some sort of otherworldly reason – if that makes sense.

yes, evil is the only word that fits. yet evil is also ephemeral. We don’t understand it, so we go back to psychiatric definitions, ASPD,, psychopathic, etc… but they don’t encompass it entirely the way that evil does, so we go back to evil.

It’s painful. it really is. to have experienced something with no name.

Ox Drover

Sky your last statement made me think about “No Name City” in “Paint your Wagon” LOL Yea, that’s what we have experienced is something with NO NAME as far as psychology has…yet it does have a name it is EVIL. We have experienced dealing with people who are truly EVIL.

kim frederick

Interesting. Evil, is something with no name….This brings me back to my (limited) study of Trauma Literature, which holds that trauma leaves the victim speachless. Therefore, the “Literature” of trauma, is always expressed in a disguised form. It is always express through symbols, and or Allegory, and is always veiled……
I believe that is what Horror is…why we have horror films. It is a way to examine evil, and trauma, without really naming it, because we have no real language to do so, and it will always be expressed and repressed, simultaineously. (Never, could spell.)
Yes, evil, is that which can not be named.

kim frederick

I know not everyone is interested in Literary Theory, and, not everyone is familiar with Virginia Wolffe, but, for those who are interested, this is good stuff, about the effects of trauma on the psyche and how it is expressed in language.


Honestly when I read their email, it reminded me very much of the convoluted mess they have made of the laws and the wording being picked apart and redefined to the point of no law being law any longer.

STOP IT AMERICA! That get back to the basics has a whole new meaning.

What about the dilation of the eyes and brain scan information through science? We all know that black stare of the pychopath. The souless eyes that homicide investigators call the 100 miles stare or is also referenced with sharks eyes, snakes eyes.

It seems there should be some substantial clues by now to get to what we know to be true.

Like OxD brought up big pharma medications for ALL and ANY normal human behavior and forget those inhumane ones as everyone is the same deep down inside. NOT!


I read the article, too, its comments, and the above comments.

More and more I believe that so much of the “authorative” practices in the world are predicated first on personal, financial gain. Therefore, I am wondering if those remaining on the committee are there not to be helpful, but for the prestige that they hope to capitalize on in the future.

When I was married and living in Norway, I miscarried twice one year apart to the day. I went to a MD, told him that I was depressed, and asked if I should see a therapist.

He snapped back that of course I was depressed. I lost two babies a year apart. He’d be a lot more worried if I weren’t depressed. He said that depression was a natural part of healing and that I would get over this. If not, I had another problem and to come back because we’d look at what I needed then. For now, he was going to let nature take its course.

I was so taken aback. It had never occurred to me that being depressed was normal and that I didn’t need any treatment. I needed time to heal.

I still think it wouldn’t have hurt to have spoken with somebody.

Natural process or not, if you don’t know what is going on or if there is an end in sight, it definitely helps to have knowledgable guidance. I’m not somebody who puts a lot of faith in old wives tales or wisdom, which is what I think we’re left with when there is no scientific, research-based information available. I still think that I can benefit more from authorities wiser than the village witch doctor.

These authorities on these committees…when they’re pressured to publish or perish and put titles after titles, then everything becomes all about them. Chances are very good that what I’m going through isn’t high on their list of priorities.

So how do we benefit? From pearls of insight that fall from their self-erected, narcisstistic totem poles in their honor?

Why is it always “all about me, myself, and I”? Doesn’t ANYBODY care what happens to others? Obviously, yes, or these two Americans would not have resigned from that committee and Donna, Liane, et al wouldn’t have written what they did.

kim frederick

After my first Daughter was born, I went for my six week gynocological exam, and was discussing contraception…I told the Dr. I didn’t like “the pill’, because it gave me headaches. He snapped, “well, what do you want, a headache, or to get pregnant again?
Jerk. I was 18…a woman, and needed some guidance. He was a Dr, and God. He had no time to educate me, or help me find an alternative to headaches. His time and expertise was far to precious for the lowly likes of me.
Yep. Narcissist.

Oxy and Kim,
the idea that this condition has no name, yet it has so many names, reminds me of the “Harry Potter” books. Voldemort is he whose name shall not be spoken. So they call him all kinds of other names but don’t use his actual name most of the time.

IMO the books are about spaths. Half the wizard population is evil and working for Voldemort, the uber spath. Reminds me of my life. ick.

thanks for the Virginia Wolff link. It was very interesting.

About your doctor, he was probably financially invested in the manufacturer of the pill. He wanted to make sure the stock price stayed high.


Kim Frederick, I appreciate your reference to why we actually have horror stories, movies, books, etc….to examine its effects and explain “horror.”

I had a very heated discussion with my son several months ago about too many “horror” movies, etc. I was in a “bad space,” that day (probably the whole month) and I snapped at him that I was living a true-life-horror story. There’s enough real-life horror out there that simply defies explanation.

With regard to this definition and diagnosis, my personal opinion carries as much water as a strainer, but my belief is that there must be another word that correlates with “evil” that doesn’t carry the heavy other-worldlyness or spiritual undertones. EVIL – yes.

As bizarre as it may sound, the exspath wasn’t particularly overtly “evil,” at all. He developed a pretty good facade. But the things that he chose to do were absolutely evil, on every level. I think that the basic ingredient to this “disorder” is lack of remorse or conscience.

And, for crissakes, let’s STOP calling it a “disorder!!!” This goes all over me because the term, “disorder,” suggests that it can be magically RE-ordered – that there is a definitive lithmus test that will turn a strip of paper orange if the urine is issued from a sociopath’s bladder. “Disorder” also suggests that there is a means to “treat” and “manage” what these people do. Yeah, there is! Spath Island! That is the only method of “treating” these predators by removing them from society and place them somewhere so that they cannot harm others.

It’s all about money, egos, and the secret language of psychspeak.

kim frederick

Well, don’t you think, “Rosemary’s Baby” is a disguised account of the un-speakable horror of having a sociopath for a child? It is veiled in the horror genre, as something super-natural, something outside humanity…it both reveils, and conceals the truth. It presents the truth in such a way that it is seen as fiction, so it innoculates it.
“Rosemary’s Baby” will be viewed differently by the person who views it as metephor, or symbol for something the general public can not accept. Just sayin’.

Ox Drover

Kim, Greek Tragedy is essentially “horror” plays….and old Willie Shakespeare wrote “horror” and most books have bad guys and good guys…even “comedy” is seeing someone walking, seeing the banana peel, and knowing the man is going to step on it and break a leg.

Jerry Springer is a successful TV producer because PEOPLE LIKE THAT KIND OF SHIAT!

Some of us learnn from it though, after we LIVE IT.

kim frederick

Yeah, Ox. And what about Jerry Springer? Talk about decadance. This tripe is presented as if it’s the norm. Trash. Jerry takes the stage and interjects humor…he actually pokes fun at the drama, but, nobody seems to get that they are being spot-lighted as freaks, and the masses eat this up like dog’s eat excrement. Jerry’s final moment, resurrects him as a pillar of society who can give guidance to the poor pitiful lost souls, he has just exploited? WTF?
This is a characture of the grotesque, to be sure.


oh jerry is laughing all the way to the bank – it’s all about GREED…greed for more money, more more much money is enough, how much money does one need? then it spills over to power and more money gives more power. sic world

Ox Drover

BTW Kim, a few years ago my son D worked as production crew with a couple of indy movies and met some actors who had been ON the Jerry Springer show and on Judge Judy…it is FAKE!~ Those are the only two I know for sure, but my guess is the rest of the “judge” shows are also fake…and I’m not sure that Dr. Phil is all that straight up “real problems”—

I do realize that there ARE people who live like the “trash” on those shows act—and I do know that there are people (like me) whose life is a freaking soap opera to the point that her new therapist thought she was a paranoid nut job until she brought in evidence and a witness…ditto my attorney I hired to protest Patrick’s parole. LOL

And hey, Donna’s life is a real LIFE TIME MOVIE….What can I say, I would qualify for Jerry springer’s show and I wouldn’t have to fake diddly.


Yeah Oxy , be sure and take you cast iron skillet with ya when you go on the Jerry Spranger show. lmaorotf

Ox Drover

Well, I’ll be taking my skillet with me soon, but not to the springer show. Son D and I are taking the mini-donkey foal, Jack Ass and dressing him up in a pack saddle and baskets with skillets and even a pair of long handled underwear and taking him to a middle school history day. I’ll be wearing my “walking cast” still but will be WALKING on it (starting Monday) and I’m stoked to be back in business with the living history events for this fall. I know the kids will love little Jack and there will be a big giggle go around when Son D pulls the long handled underwear out of the pack basket to show the kids what is in them. LOL


Truthy, you’re right. It isn’t a disorder exactly for the reason that you gave – people are going to think the person can be put back into order somehow, like through therapy and/or with lots of love and understanding.

I’m at loss as to what to call them. Yes, they are evil, but that’s a subjective term so it’s not a good description. People define evil differently.

Scum of the earth works for me, but I don’t think it would be picked up as a medical term and it’s insulting to the real, one-cell scum that are on the face of our planet.


G1S! LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Diagnosis: the patient has exhibited symptomatic scum of the earth tendencies and scum of the earth predatory idealizations, with the exception of the single-celled reproductive cycles. Patient has indicated that childhood amoebic behaviors were exacerbated with paramecium abuse and planktonetic impulses.

(SNORT) LMAO!!!!!!! It has just occurred to me that, though single-celled organism may “lie” through mimicry and camoflage, they don’t manipulate their quarries’ emotional stability to snag and feed.

Brightest blessings


Truthy, thanks.

Am laughing here, too. Very funny what you said.


Okay, maybe someone can explain why I’m so giggly, today. I got an email from my attorney, first thing, that the exspath flatly rejected my divorce settlement because the alimony was considered “unsustainable.” LMAO!!!!!!!!! A man makes 60K per year and alimony is somehow “unsustainable?!” WTF?!?!!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! Oh, my goodness, the Dance Of The Spath continues! LOLOLOL



Now if only we could hold that mood through the whole darn process!!!

Remember the post of walking through the office with a smirk on your face and it making the spath mad?

Laugh ON!


Honestly, it’s insane this divorce process. Just pay the TWO DOLLARS and end it! Defend one’s self against the things that he’s done? REALLY? And, apparently, his attorney is quite confident about the outcome.




Be very suspicious of that confidence!! They are professional actors. Mr. Spath and his sidekick phony pastor/(formerly) licensed psychologist wanted me to believe I would be paying their attorney fees and publicly humiliated (now is that a Godly thing to do?) if I followed through with my legitimate complaint to the board of behavioral health. Low and behold, no attorney fees for me and no more than usual public humiliation from him and psychologist no longer has his license and he closed his home church down!!!

Have a bath and think about if it’s just game…….


I better check myself. I think I just gloated and I get slapped pretty bad when I do that……!! oops… I’ll settle down..



I am very interested in literary theory. I watched about 30 movies (on purpose) about spaths. I was amazed at how consistent the spaths were portrayed. I mean, consistent with how WE on LF know them to be. I never really saw them before.

So now Ibelieve there must be theory behind character development and literary theory. All this stuff I never saw before and now there it is.



Kim is definitely the expert on literary theory. She knows her stuff. She was the first to help me understand Girard’s theories because she had read Violence and the Sacred (it’s not an easy read and everyone needs help getting it.)

What you are doing is what Girard did when he developed his theories. He was researching the differences in the great classics and instead he stumbled upon the similarities. He noted that all the great stories had certain elements, specifically: mimetic desire. envy. scapegoating. trading places, etc…

He never said it, but once I read his theories, I knew he was talking about spaths, whether he knew it or not. He was certainly talking about human nature.

One of his books is titled, “A theater of envy” and it dissects Shakespeare’s plays to reveal the role that envy played in those dramas. I’ve only read one chapter but I could see that he was really hitting the notes.


This really spoke to me, as did Linda’s article on her dream. I have been having a waking fantasy lately, where I am in the mandated family therapy session (thankfully, these ended a year ago) with my 3 teenage children, exspath and his spathwife, and the therapist. In this fantasy/dream, I am bold and speak up to say: “there is an elephant in the room, and I am going to name it and focus attention on it. An “elephant in the room” means something forbidden to mention, so we pretend it is not there and that it is not the cause or overarching contributing factor to the reason we are all gathered here. I know that I am not “allowed” to name it but I’m going to anyway, because if I don’t, then I am colluding in it. I’m not going to collude. As well, this therapy is just a pointless charade, without the naming of the real problem. My ex-spath has an undiagnosed and untreated personality disorder, and that is the problem. I should know: I was married to him and I’ve known him for 20 years. I know all the traits because I have studied it and lived with it. I have interacted with him and observed his interactions with others. It is undeniably true. I am going to say that even if I am not allowed to “diagnose” him, I AM allowed to NAME THE PROBLEM. It is not that I am blaming him for having a personality disorder, but I will not stand by and continue to allow the rest of us to be blamed for the effects of his behaviors, due to his undiagnosed, untreated condition. Without naming it, we are barking up the wrong tree, colluding in shifting the blame to the rest of us, and it is harmful to all of us, including him.”

So that has been my fantasy. It always ends badly. Usually he just laughs and shrugs and rolls his eyes at me, and the therapist “tsk, tsk’s” me because I really am NOT allowed to speak of such things. The spathwife looks at me with condescending pity.

But I and my children are empowered and feel only relief.

So…. I do think it is powerful and necessary to speak up and name it. I see no problem calling it “Evil.” That is what it is.

It is a great shame that we as a country have allowed ourselves to become so uneducated that we cannot hear the truth when it is spoken, because our egos get in the way. “oh my gosh! she just said the word “evil!” she must be one of those crazy, ignorant Christian people! She has gone off the deep end. We cannot possibly respond to her with anything but nodding our heads politely at her and then excusing ourselves at the first opportunity….”


I’m new here. Sorry if this isn’t exactly relevant, but can someone help me find something I saw on lovefraud dot com a few months ago? It was a list of the top ten lies psychopaths tell in order to defraud their victims. A few of the lies were; 1. Ex Military, 2. Wealthy, 3. Unmarried; and the 9th one (if I remember correctly) was, Born Again Christian. This is one of the lies my ex told me to suck me in. Thanks.



Hi there, welcome to lovefraud. I don’t know the list that you’re talking about. Those lies sound about right. My Ex-Spath lied about his wealth, home ownership, marital status, military background. I think they study their victims and figure out what shit is most likely to stick. I don’t know about Born Again Christian but it probably fits.

I am sorry for what happened to you, but I am glad you found LF as you will get support here.



20 years

Your post made me laugh out loud. Wow, do I relate to THAT elephant in the room!

A few weeks back I had a brief conversation with my spath. I reminded him that he once called me a narcissist. He hung his head and said, “We both know that I have problems”. I didn’t know what to say and didn’t want to offend him, so I changed the subject.


Even when I know it’s a spath, I don’t really “know” it’s a spath.




Thanks callmeathena. I was hoping to find the list to print for future reference. That list was an eye opener for me because it listed one of his most blatant, but well played out lies; that of being a born again Christian. Nothing in my life had prepared me for the possibility that someone would fake (and fake well) being a Christian in order to trick a woman into marriage. Who would ever thing a person would do that? And why?????

It didn’t take long for me to figure out why he did it, but it took me 12 hellish years to gather the courage to get out because he used threats and intimidation (mostly about custody) to try to get me to stay in the marriage. And of course he lied, lied, lied throughout the marriage. Ruined me financially. He also lied about his past and his lifestyle, drug use, alcohol use, pornography. He told me I was the crazy one, that he loved me but that I was so unstable that I wouldn’t know what love was if it slapped me in the face, even though he consistently treated me with such blatant disregard for my most basic needs, like refusing to get out of bed when I was in labor. But I was supposed to believe that he loved me but that I was just too unstable to see it.

He threatened to paint me as unstable, rage-a-holic, psychotic, etc. if I ever tried to leave him so that he get the kids.

Oh, and he’s a licensed psychologist by the way. He used to suggest that he knew all the judges in town (and he does) and that they would believe him because he’s a doctor.

What a mess I made of my life by believing his lies. I feel like I’ve lost 14 years of my life; the year we dated when I was unknowingly being sucked in by his lies, the 12 horrendous years of more lies, emotional abuse and threats, and the year long divorce battle which was of course UGLY. Isn’t it always ugly to divorce one of these men?

I’ve only been free of him for 30 days, so the healing process is just beginning. I guess I’m still trying to make sense of it all; mainly how I got scammed and why I believed him? And how do get over the grief of throwing away so much of your life for someone who’d burn you alive and die laughing about it?



Well, I am so guilty of covering for my exspath all these years.

Let me rephrase that: I take responsibility for colluding in his behaviors, because I didn’t speak up.

Yes, I was afraid of offending or hurting him.

Yes, I was afraid that I was not qualified (i.e., have a mental health license) therefore “allowed” to speak up and name this thing.

Yes, I didn’t really understand what personality disorders “look like” even though I lived with it and read all those books… it took me 20 years for it to sink in and to get it!!!

So now that I know, and part of “taking responsibility” is realizing what part I played, and resolving to do it differently from now on. So far, it is just in fantasy form. 🙂

But I just did something new, just this week. You see, he has been using the only manipulative tool he has left, with the kids: money. I finally fixed that one. I went to the school and told them (in somewhat veiled terms because I knew they wouldn’t REALLY get it) of the challenges, and I said, “my ex and I have a legal agreement where I pay 25% and he pays 75%. Can I please just pay you directly my 25% and you can either go after him for the 75% or grant some financial aid?”

And they said YES. And they said, “from now on, Ms. 20 years, you need not worry. We will HANDLE IT FOR YOU.”

So — NO MORE!!! No more going to him to beg for money for the kids’ education (we are talking SAT fees, field trip fees, textbook fees, AP test fees, etc.).

Some of the burden has finally been lifted from my kids’ shoulders. I’m a grownup and I can take it (I’m so darned tough and it’s so darned unfair how tough I have had to BE) — but I find it very hard to watch my kids suffer.

They can take this battle on when they are adults, but for now….

Yeah, I’m so sick of covering for him and pretending that “it takes two” and doing my 50% to make things work (more like 100%). It makes me very tired.

you ARE tough. I can read it in you. Your backspath was well played. Congrats. I also like your fantasy. I have many similar fantasies all day long every day!

Fantasies about telling the truth. Why would we even need to FANTASIZE about telling the truth? Shouldn’t the truth simply be TOLD? I WISH!

But in this perverted landscape we call our world, the truth is a shameful thing and the one who speaks it is the one who is made to feel shamed.

That is what Rene Girard means when he says, the foundation of culture was a murder and a lie. My spath-husband-stealing neighbor was right when she said, “Skylar, EVERYBODY lies.”

Well, just about everybody. If you don’t lie, they turn on you.

welcome. Sorry you needed to be here, but you will find it a very enlightening place to be.

That is how we all feel at first. The spaths INTENDED for us to feel that they had wasted our lives. 25 years down the drain. But it is up to you to find meaning in that time, so it does NOT become lost time.

Here on LF, you will learn all the things the spath intended to take from you. Time, your money, your life, your soul.

Since he got the money, don’t give him the other things. Keep reading and you will learn more about how to protect those things.


Yes, there has to be a pathology behind my truth telling (at least that’s the impression I’m given). You know, like an angry ex-wife thing. If I don’t want to appear to be just a nasty, vindictive (stereotypical) ex-wife, then I am left with — what role?

To play along? Well, I now believe that is collusion and I’m not going to do it.

Yet, I don’t want to make others uncomfortable by airing my dirty laundry. I was not brought up that way.

I hate the position this puts me in. To play along (yes, I read the book The Good Divorce and yep, that’s why I tried to do/live), but if I do that, you see, I’m LYING just as much as he. I can be as polite as you please, but it’s still LYING. (it is polite to lie, and rude to tell the truth?)

to tell the truth: then I risk offending others or turning them off and they don’t want to be around me anymore. Or they admonish me to stop (telling the truth!). To silence me.


Well, I read the Psychology Today article linked here, and man, this is so sick. Truly, all they needed to do was ask us. We are the ones who know the truth, better than anyone. They must not care to know, then. Or… they know, but they want to keep the truth hidden. ??

I’m glad to hear that two people had the guts to speak up and leave, rather than collude.


20 Years –

Nice one with the school. Woo hoo for you! You know, even though we read books and we’re here on LF talking about it every day, it’s still hard to believe when we’re looking at it face to face. There are many personality disorders, but none embody EVIL like the sociopath. It’s disorienting to somebody who is filled with God, and you are, whether you realize it or not. HUGS to you!


I’m with Skylar on this one. It’s not 14 years down the drain.
I really believe that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.
As a result of my five year spath experience (and he’s probably not gone, so, maybe 6, 7, 8 years?) I have learned so much about human nature, about literature, about my family of origin, about why I was an easy victim, about humanity, about my faith in God….I am a changed person, and I have found my faith, and I have found wisdom.

Just for the record, when I first read Donna’s piece about this being her spiritual journey, well, it didn’t resonate with me. I was raised catholic and didn’t go to church for decades. But this whole experience made me question if there is a God and help me find my own beliefs.

So please hang in there lovinglem, and make this an opportunity. If you can, get a therapist, and read everything on LF, read every book mentioned on this site you can possibly read (the library is awesome), and you will find your way.

You may find ways to leave breadcrumbs to others about the truth about your spath – his true colors. Most can not hide their tracks succesfully. Other women may come out of the woodwork, or, other people he has lied to, and cheated. The truth will likely come out.

Take care of yourself, and let him rot in his shit.

Hugs to you, lovinglem.



Thanks skylar and callmeathena:

I know I have to change my own perspective. Instead of 14 years lost, I need to think of all that was gained. I have 3 amazing kids. Wonderful friends. A steadfast faith in God that I never would have had if I had not endured all that I had endured. When I focus on those things, I do okay. And yes, I want very much to help other women who’ve suffered. That would give some value and some meaning to the pain and loss that I’ve suffered.

I just found out that he’s dating already. (We’ve been divorced only a month). I feel so scared for that poor unsuspecting soul. Please God, don’t let him destroy another life. Is there a safe way of letting her know? I doubt it.

Ox Drover

Dear Lovinglem,

Welcome to Love Fraud and to learning that YOU ARE NOT ALONE, AND YOU ARE NOT CRAZY….and you will heal. He may be a psychologist but you can read and learn and find out just what kind of scum bag he is and how to combat him.

You are STRONGER than you know and there is a wealth of information and support here. This is the BEST site on the net for the caring and support from great people here.

We are a saddened group right now because one of our bloggers just lost her baby boy, Cappachhino queen’s son was lost on an unsupervised court ordered visit to her X. Plus two other members have been diagnosed with cancer, but we ARE here for them and we are here for YOU so chime in anywhere any time. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, SO GET YOUR POWER BACK! (((hugs))) and God bless.

ps. yes they will hide behind God, and all manner of other “good” things and good works but when the mask slips and you see Lucifer back behind that mask and know it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, you get as far away as fast as possible and NO contact except what is ordered by the court. All communication via attorneys or e mail. (BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY)

Don’t listen to any “I love you’s” or anything else ONLY SPEAK ABOUT BUSINESS. Don’t let him push your emotional buttons.

God bless.


Thank you so much Ox Drover.

I am so, so sorry about cappachhino queen’s son. I’ve read some of her posts regarding court ordered visitation and that lousy social worker. I’m just sick to my stomach to hear that she lost her son. How is she doing? How did you all find out about it? I’m sorry also about the ladies who’ve been diagnosed with cancer. It’s just so unfair, but we do live in a world which is injust and corrupt. I pray for all three members in this terrible time.

Yes, you’re right about the “mask.” I wish I would have trusted my gut. I saw that mask slip a bit two weeks before the wedding but I rationalized it away because nothing in life had prepared me for what a sociopath is or would do to get what he wanted.

Thanks to all of you who have welcomed me so warmly. I really needed that.

Ox Drover

DEar Lovinglem,

NONE of us listened to our guts, I think that 99.9% of the people here (I just made that statistic up) would say we had a “gut feeling” but we ignored it. I know I had 100s of gut feelings in my relationships with people high in P traits, or full fledged Ps…I had a gut feeling but didn’t act on it.
Don’t beat yourself up over that. The masks are good, and we don’t expect what’s behind it.

AThena, your WTF moment made me think of mine, I CAUGHT a “friend’ STEALING FROM ME–IN THE VERY ACT OF STEALING, and I CRIED for 3 that is THREE days because I was afaid I had EMBARRASSED HER BY CATCHING HER STEALING. LOL ROTFLMAO now at myself. What the Fark was I thinking?

Well, what she stole from me was not worth much, but what she TAUGHT ME IS PRICELESS….I learned from her to SET BOUNDARIES and to start to enforce them. You know that is truly something priceless. She is out of my life now, and without me to mooch off of and others to mooch off of she is leading a very pitiful life. Funny thing is that she had choices, she had beauty, intelligence, talent and a lot of other things that people wish they had and she blew it all way….but her father was a P, no doubt about that, and her son (only child) is a bi-polar psychopath as well…so there’s a lot of genetic stuff going on there, but even with the genetics, just like my son, she HAD CHOICES…she chose bad ones.


Does it surprise anyone that there is “controversey” within the psychiatric community about psychopathy?

As far as I am concerned this group of professionals perpetuate the growing numbers of this pathology in our culture.

We are indeed asking the fox to guard the hen house.



It makes me wonder what those 2 men that walked away would diagnose the other members of the committee with……..

It also has me wondering if they all wondered that while sitting there with a bunch of head docs…lol


Thanks again Ox Drover. It is comforting to hear someone say in essence that I’m not an idiot to have been taken in by him. I guess you’re right, we all ignored that “gut feeling.” I wonder why we do that. I don’t think we are taught in our society to trust our guts, are we? I know I am going to teach my children to trust their guts. Speaking of which, my eldest dd has a visceral fear of her father. I think she sees right through him, and her gut tells her to fear him. But what can I do? I am required to bring them for visits with him per court order. There’s no way around that. He asserts that *I* am making her be afraid of him. BS. Her own gut is telling her to fear him.

Is it okay to ask off topic questions on this site?

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