The American Psychiatric Association is in the process of updating its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the DSM-5. This is the “bible” used by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals to diagnosis psychiatric conditions, including antisocial personality disorder. Two members of the committee working on personality disorders have resigned, stating that the proposal displays a “stunning disregard for evidence.”
Dr. Liane Leedom and I had issues with how the first draft described antisocial personality disorder, which was why we conducted a Lovefraud survey back in 2010. Based on the survey results, we submitted Lovefraud’s  comment about sociopaths for the DSM-5. The description was since revised, but apparently there are professionals who are still dissatisfied.
If the professionals can’t agree, no wonder the rest of us are confused.
Two who resigend from DSM-5 explain why, on PyschologyToday.com.
This discussion is very enlightening for me, as is almost every discussion I read here! Thank you.
In addition to being a survivor of a “spath relationshit” (although I got lucky in the same way I did when I got a “good” cancer and only had a minor bout), I am a lawyer and part of my work is in child welfare. I work for my state, basically as a contract worker, and I can be appointed to represent a mother, father or child(ren). Since starting this work, I have joked that getting new cases is like playing Russian Roulette and I stand by this assessment.
Until about 2 weeks ago, I was representing a mother in a case with 4 children. I have concluded (and other observers concur although no one else has ventured to explicitly label her as I have here) that she is a psychopath probably also with bipolar or some similar mood/biochemical disorder. Representing her has been incredibly difficult in a myriad of ways. I considered asking to withdraw a number of times since I got this case in early 2011. I was recovering from my personal betrayal and she was difficult even without my feeling traumatized. I have talked about this case in therapy and in the end I decided I need to learn how to work with a spath client and not run.
A few weeks ago, we were slated for trial to terminate her parental rights. There was a settlement offered that I advised her to accept. It increasingly appeared that one way or another, she would try to blame me, or the state social worker, or the judge or someone for this happening. In addition, she was/is volatile and I was strongly advised by the agency that works with mothers like her that I needed to warn the other parties and the court officers that she was dangerous (after she made such threats in the presence of the agency staff). The settlement negotiations broke down to the point where I realized I had to ask to withdraw. I am grateful that the judge allowed me to do so. Another attorney was appointed for my ex-client.
Yesterday at the courthouse, I saw the attorney who took over the case. We talked about the case (and laughed with some gallows humor) in the lawyers lobby. I also apologized for dumping this horrible case on her (or anyone else). The new lawyer also commented that the judge shouldn’t have let me withdraw so late in the game but I believe he understood why it was necessary to keep things from being completely derailed. While we were talking, some other attorneys joined in and the conversation turned to the fact that we all suffer from PTSD effects from some of these cases. For such work, I am paid the handsome rate of $50/hour with no benefits and there is increasingly time-consuming fiscal accountability (for which I cannot be paid, of course).
I am in no way equating what we suffer as anything close to what family members and “loved ones” suffer from spaths but some of us in the field are negatively effected by these encounters too.
I have been reading Cappuccino Queen’s postings, most recently with great horror and sadness of course. I am struck by the recurring theme (in her posts and the comments) of the legal system letting down innocent parents and their children. Beyond the human element and my own quest to understand, I read this with great interest because I am trying to figure out how I can contribute to making things different in the legal system.
This discussion is posted on the thread related to the problems with definitions in the DSM V. If the mental health professionals are having so much trouble with definitions and treatment, what remedies can we really expect from our legal professionals?
I don’t want to take the discussion away from helping lovinglem but this seemed like the best place for me to pose these questions.
How can we fix our legal system(s) so spaths can’t use it to further victimize others? I welcome any thoughts from the group and hope this doesn’t detract from others.
20years,
Oh if you were only correct! I wish that was our first and only experience with reunification….. The first one was a woman I feel with all my heart should be behind BARS! My dd at age 10 was ordered to this womans office who had a PHD (?) and was 70+yrs. old. She was “smitten” with psycho and he fed it. He said “I’d be honored if RT would marry me”!!! Dd responds, “why don’t you two go do that and let me outta here.” Yeah right! He was 40 yo. and coming in a half hour early every week to PRAY! The devil PRAYS/PREYS?! The woman wouldn’t let anyone but her, dad and dd on the property during the meetings. Dd would run away when father bad mouthed me, all my family and any of his family that wasn’t siding with him. When dd wasn’t running, she was locked in the office by a keyhole deadbolt. Dd was found 2 stories up hiding in a tree she climbed she named “Wolly” (the only thing she trusted there for a while), dd ran into a trauma counselors office in the complex crying and begging for help, stating nobody would help her and nobody would listen to her or her mommy. She entered that office because there was dog and she thought it meant a good thing. That person gave her back to the RT saying she could get through this. She almost jumped through a plate glass window and was repeatedly threatened to be arrested for not abiding by a court order by RT and biohazard???!!! Kids don’t understand that! She had never even been to the principals office at school and they were calling her an evil child and demon seed, mean, rude etc. She was told God will kill her by illness if she didn’t forgive her father. I could go on and on.
In the meantime, crazy Phd RT was sending letters to the judge that I was parent alienating when in fact I was NOT. The courts ordered me into counseling “to fix my problem” and the child into separate counseling “to find out why she is so hostile toward the father” (prove mother was alienating). Luckily at this point I had already applied for a child advocate to take our case. Due to my crazy legwork , begging and pleading along with testifying and getting my name and story out to every venue I could, the child advocates office happened to temporarily have someone I could see and someone the child could see and it saved me some money but not before our lives were destroyed. After all this, I was found to be an excellent mother and NOT alienating mother and the child was found to be alienated but by the father himself! Due to crappy representation (my attorney), the judge never heard this and I was sanctioned thousands of dollars which I agreed to in exchange for getting rid of RT and getting a new RT. That is when I found the one who specialized in childhood trauma.
Wew!! Thank you for appreciating the details. I always hope something I did working day and night for over 3 years can be something that helps someone or anyone.
Biohazard psycho (diagnosed) left that last meeting! We went to new RT for a closure meeting as I worried about dd having guilt or some such thing in the future for running him off and biohazard refused to pay his part as he was not included. He kept telling her I needed to be in his meetings with HIS DAUGHTER and she told him NO. This is between you and your daughter and that is how the court order reads. She explained this was not couples counseling so he threatened to have a hearing to question her credibility. Then he said he wanted another meeting with dd. Good RT wrote a letter telling the judge and asking for his guidance and validating the childs feelings while also confirming what I said happened in the prior RT’s office. The judge filed it and I found out 8/21/12 that the judge basically blew it off. It showed the child was abused by the process. This woman said she would NEVER file anything stating I alienated the child. Dd is now 13. That part went on for over 2 years.
Sparklehorse,
I can’t imagine what it’s like to be in your shoes. With that said I commend your attempt to “stick it out” and find a way to work with a spath client. You sound similar to the psychologists/psychiatrists who want to learn to work with them. I just believe it is impossible many times.
Lawyers have a mindset of everyone deserves a lawyer and to be represented from their point of view, I would say in a family court matter. In criminal court it is different as cases are supposed to be based on facts and evidence.
#1. No psychologist or court facilitator should have immunity. They should be answering to someone as they hold a license which have clear ethical guidelines and they have not earned such protection. Too many of them are considering immunity to be a free insurance policy and have no integrity in their quality of work. There is no ethical standard and it appears it went by way of this statute. There’s no accountability in their horrid positions they place children in. The immunity statute in my state was written by an attorney who worded it in a way as “absolute immunity” and only the highest callibar of honor should have this protection.
#2. Men and women are not equal. They are both needed as are the sun and the moon to reproduce but they are not the same. I could name several scientific reasons I say this and I can name several common sense reasons this is true. A woman is having a period monthly which is a physiological process of the body and procreation. The woman does not have to have an orgasm to reproduce. We need to be ovulating which we also do monthly normally. We then grow the baby inside our body for approximately 9 months. We give up ourselves to the child. (we take on so much risk that is minimized by this current backward model of law) The father doesn’t. By nature the child is able to live drinking milk from our breasts not theres. He goes about his life and hopefully starts to bond with the IDEA of parenting and a new baby. Once the child is born the fathers vested interest is some ejaculated sperm unless he in fact made some financial investments during the baby developing inside the womans body. The courts are leaning to EQUALITY when it just isn’t so.
If the mother takes her role seriously and takes care of herself and the baby from conception out, she should be given credit for this. That baby is bonded to her in a way it just can’t be yet to the father. I believe many men fall in love with the idea of a child being conceived and then born. I also believe they are most likely part of the 80-90% of custody cases decided without legal interference. If there is a custody battle/war going on, someone is probably being unreasonable (only 10-20% of custody cases end up in litigation) or there me be substantial assets to be divided in a divorce situation.
#3. What is the history of the two people involved in this dispute? I know how to look at the stablity and risk of a person on the front end (risk assessment) and was successful using some very simple guidelines. 1. How long have you been at your residence? Own, Rent? (a minimum of 2 years is good) 2. How long have you been at your job even if that job is a stay at home mom? (minimum of 2 years is cause for stability credit) 3. What is your occupation? 4. Do you have any criminal record? Driving Record? 5. Credit score? 6. Primary caregiver of the children since conception? 7. Mental health history (and maybe not all in that order)
These are basics that expose stability or a lack there of. They also give a general idea of the basis of character potentially. DNA, when children are involved does not make a parent nor does it make people equal until the above assessment has been made. Parenting is a verb not a noun. I find the more a parent believes it’s a noun, the more trouble you will have with that person.
The above list is also some of what got destroyed in my life by dealing with a diagnosed anti-social personality in the family court.
These are just my first thoughts. Nobody has ever asked what I would change. I am sure I will wish I mentioned others things as your question sinks in. I am grateful you care to ask.
PERJURY TASK FORCE with maybe a flat fee for each lie you are caught in and your case should be amended with the truth post haste even if it means a change of custody. Jail time if you reach a certain # or if the perjured statement impacted the children adversely. In my case, the psycho lied from start to finish on affidavits. I didn’t.
Sparklehorse,
I hope the above is the type of answer you are looking for. There is one more thing,
If a custody decision is decided by the courts (remember only 10-20% go to court in my state) then all parties involved, judges, lawyers, court facilitators and anyone paid in the custody case should be named publicly. This way if any injury or harm comes to the child/ren it would be easy to track who is a part of problem and not part of a solution.
I would like to hear your input regarding my thoughts.
Thanks again for caring to ask……..
lovinglem,
I wanted to pull you down here so you didn’t get lost up there in that offshot of your post. I couldn’t help but answer as I have been wanting someone to ask that question for quite some time. (as you can tell….) I am frustrated for all of us and especially when the worst case scenario occurs like what has happened to Cappiqueen.
Sorry for getting sidetracked.
Eralyn,
No need to apologize whatsoever. Everything I read here helps and if my posts lead to other topics being discussed which will help others, I have no complaints!
Thanks so much to all of you who posted advice for me. I am taking it all in and processing it. I agree about not sharing your true feelings with a spath. It’s just so hard when you’re dealing with children. They should not have to learn “gray rock” but I do understand why it can be necessary.
Thanks for explaining the “victim impact statement.” Maybe my christian therapist can work with her on something like that, but my ex would never meet with him and he would likely deny everything the child said.
Yes, I have three children. My 10 yr old is the eldest. They do all visit him together but the eldest would like to never see the man again, and the middle child will not go on visits without the eldest. The younger two don’t seem to be as effected by his callousness. I think they are still easily won over by the stupid tokens of love he offers; toys, treats and movies.
Sparklehorse,
A big problem in the family court system is that judges generally don’t give a rat’s ass about emotional abuse that these spaths perpetrate. And children’s wishes, fears, and feelings mean nothing in family court. I mean, when a kid is shaking in fear and threatens suicide if he has to visit his dad, a judge should seriously consider the child is abused whether or not he has bruises. (A friend of mine has a son who HATES to visit his dad and has threatened suicide because he must spend weekends with a man who makes him sleep on the floor, doesn’t feed him, hits him (but not hard enough to leave bruises, etc. The kid goes to a therapist and all of this is documented but the judge DOES NOT CARE. Another child I know is forced to spend weekends with her druggie dad. Children don’t really matter in the family court system. All the talk about “best interest of the children” is a bunch or hogwash.
There’s too much of a push in the family court system to brainwash us all into believing that in every case, both parents are equally fit and equally deserving of custody. I went to a parenting class in which a man described how his ex wife was living with a guy who was suspected of at least two murders and a body had been found on his property. This man’s children were with the ex wife on this property with this suspected murder. The facilitator of the parenting class told him to “Lose the window and gain a mirror.” She must have said that 25 times in a 5 hour class. We were implored over and over again to never bash the other parent, to consider the other parent equally fit and equally needed by the child NO MATTER WHAT THE OTHER PARENT HAD DONE. It just didn’t matter. One woman was still married but her husband was having an affair and was taking their son along on his dates. She too was told to “Lose the window and gain a mirror.” It’s no holes barred in family court. Unless a man beats his child to death he will be given free access.
Also, women who are emotionally abused by these psychopathic men are often seen as unstable and unreliable in the family court system because like I said before, the judge does not give a damn about emotional abuse.
Sparklehorse, I am also grateful that you care enough to ask. Things need to change.
I was a bit crude in my response to sparklehorse describing bluntly my point on the differences of mothers and fathers. I didn’t mean to offend. lol….I was on a roll……
Sparklehorse,
Unfortunately, there are too many Narcissistic/psychopathic lawyers, judges, cops, doctors, PhDs etc. and dealing with those people who have “good masks” is difficult beyond belief and they can “snow” just about anyone.
Then there are the low-life criminal psychopaths that are easy to spot.
But, the “belief system” that PARENTS HAVE RIGHTS is a crock of carp! Rotten Carp! Children should have the RIGHT to nurturing parents. Unfortunately, it is difficult to tell when a parent is a well masked psychopath and so dealing with that is impossible.
A blogger here, Milo, has custody of her grandson, the mother is a hooker, a druggie, a liar a thief, and on and on, and yet the COURT tried to “reunify” the family of her and her child who is living with the grandmother. The child is a “special needs” child. Thhe GAL appointed to represent the child was ALL about taking the child away from the grandmother and putting him into a foster home so he could be “reunited” with his egg donor.
Well, the bills kept going up and up for the GAL and as long as she kept the pot stirred, she kept getting money. Well, the egg donor didn’t have a cent, or actually even a home, but the Grandparents were forced to pay almost 100% of the GAL’s outrageous fee. As far as I am concerned that GAL was a psychopath MILKING THE SYSTEM for her “fees”
It happens all the time. There is the old saying that “99% of the lawyers give a bad name to the other 1% of honest ones” LOL And sometimes I wonder if that is not true.
When a psychopath or someone high in P traits gets into a position of power—a badge, a PhD or on the bench…they keep the fight going and the fees go up and up. The kids are the ones that suffer.
Dr. Amy Castillo told the judge that her X had threatened to kill the children to get back at her, but he gave the guy UNsupervised visits and guess what? on the FIRST visit he killed the kids.
At the time I read that, I thought that kind of situation must be RARE, but a few minor searches on the net will show you dozens of cases of just that sort of thing. So what happens to the judges? NADA! What happened to that GAL? Nada, she got her blood money from the grandparents and the child is fortunately still with his grandparents who are no longer able to retire at 65, but must keep on working to keep insurance for the boy, and to provide him a home etc. while the mother goes skipping off to violate more laws and HAVE MORE CHILDREN TO NEGLECT and more folks to con.
I could go on and on about parents here on LF who are living in TERROR of the same thing happening to their precious children that are COURT ordered to visit with abusive DNA donors.
When I read about these legal abuses, I just want to throw in the towel. But I won’t. Thank you everyone for sharing. There has got to be a way to document and disseminate videotape of these abuses so that the general public begins to KNOW the evil that is being perpetrated.
If you have not seen “The Changeling” you should. it is a true story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling_(film)
Unfortunately, when we watch these films, it seems as if it is a rare event. It is not. The injustice and spathticity is the same, though the details may differ. When I think that I watched the film with the spath, I get chills.
Lovinglem,
I wanted to address some of your questions. First of all, it is not too early to teach gray rock. In essence, gray rock is about BOUNDARIES. Children need to learn that most of all. If I had had boundaries, I wouldn’t be here blogging with you today. Boundaries on your emotions means that not everyone is entitled to your emotions. YOU get to decide who receives your emotional responses. There are many ways to implement gray rock. It simply means that you don’t have to respond emotionally, you don’t have to give vampires something to feed on. It’s never to early to learn how to be boring.
You were saying that your exspath is a psychologist and a genius. Yes, many of them are extraordinarily smart, with hi IQ’s. But you know what my exspath used to say about his ingenius friend with millions of dollars and several patents? he said, “Steve is the dumbest smart man I’ve ever known.”
“Well, Spath, so are you,” I thought.
They are very easy to trick, actually. They are story driven characters and when they tell a story, they believe their own story. They get so carried away with it that if you pretend to believe it, you can add to it and get carried away too. Then the spath picks up where you left off. He will actually add to whatever rope you gave him.
Whatever story they tell, (and they never stop telling stories), just go along with it and raise it up a notch. This is called, “selective gray rock”. Then maneuver it until you end up where you want. This worked for me before i left the spath. It gave me time to prepare my exit.
It’s an unpleasant way to live, I’m not going to kid you. But it does help put you back in a position of some power. Never underestimate a spath. They have no limits.
Excellent post skylar.
Thanks so much.
I am going to pass parts of it along to someone
I know of who could really use hearing what you
have said. xxoo