Last week, after publishing ThePsychoExWife.com and the First Amendment, Lovefraud received the following letter:
I want to commend you and thank you for your website. It is a service to all survivors and the people that love them and, if you’ll permit me, I do want to open a dialogue with you about some concerns I have about the site.
I have read everything possible about sociopathy from a graduate student perspective and from my own experience with a violent sociopath and several other moderate paths, as well as other random people and family members that fit various DSM criteria, I am concerned that your site is very black and white and that people will be misled to their detriment. As I am sure you know, sociopathy, like any other DSM diagnosis, is on a continuum and not all sociopaths exhibit or act out all path behavior, meaning each path is an individual and, although, they all have indicators, behaviors and thought processes that are similar they are not all the same and, most importantly, not all are equally dangerous.
I have been intending to email you for many weeks now but the piece on the psychoexwife.com motivated me to proceed. Borderline Personality Disorder is a very complex disorder, as all mental disorders are, and although it is related to sociopathy as the article stated, again, not all people under that diagnosis are equally afflicted and they are not usually physically dangerous to anyone but themselves—cutting, for example. In fact, many BPD people do not self-harm at all. People categorically need to protect themselves at all costs and I absolutely commend you and your site for the diligence in advocating that point but an ex-husband diagnosing an ex-wife without a medical degree is iffy at best and as someone who survived a VIOLENT (serial rapist) path and was labeled the “scorned ex-girlfriend” when I tried to report him, I am extremely wary of anyone or any public information that fosters the belief system that women that speak up against violence in a domestic situation are “psycho.” Isn’t that what your site loudly tries to expose? How we frame our dialogue is crucially important to our goals and success. Buying into the dominant paradigm to make our point hurts us more than we realize by reinforcing the belief that all women are potentially psycho and, therefore, should not be believed when they report domestic and sexual violence. I am very surprised by the position you took on psychoexwife.com. I would need a lot more information before I could take a side there.
My main point other than my comments about PsycoExWife.com is that most everything I read here and everywhere else talks about sociopaths lacking a conscience as an absolute—they just don’t have one period. Lack of conscious is certainly the defining feature, overall, in my experience, with paths but it is very hard to measure and most paths hide that with varying degrees of success so my concern is that most people without experience dealing with paths will not understand that there are degrees to which paths in general have or don’t have a conscious. A conscious is not a tangible thing you can see directly and it’s not that anyone has one 100% or 0%. The literature in general seems to always say you either have one or you don’t. I think that is misleading.
I appreciate the thoughtful concerns of this reader. Let me address the points that she brought up.
First of all, I was very surprised by the reaction of many readers to last week’s story about ThePsychoExWife.com. To me, the website is similar to Lovefraud—the main difference being that it is primarily about disordered women, rather than disordered men.
The email criticized Mister-M, the author of the website, for diagnosing his ex-wife as having borderline personality disorder, because he isn’t a qualified professional. Well, we do this on Lovefraud all the time. My ex-husband, to my knowledge, has never been professionally diagnosed. But I am quite comfortable with my conclusion that he is a sociopath. I am comfortable enough to write an entire book about it—Love Fraud: How marriage to a sociopath fulfilled my spiritual plan.
ThePsychoExWife.com advocates “low contact” with the disordered individuals. That’s “no contact” for people who have no choice but to interact because of children—essentially the same advice Lovefraud offers.
So why the visceral reaction to the article by many Lovefraud readers? Thinking about it, it seemed to me that some of you may have been triggered by the website. Readers commented that the name of the website itself was a red flag. I can understand that—you may have been accused of being the “psycho ex” by, of course, your “psycho ex.” You may have been subject to language similar to that used on the website. The articles are written with a sarcastic, “can-you-believe-she-pulled-this-crap?” tone. I have heard a similar tone in my ex-husband’s statements.
Thankfully, I’ve healed enough that I wasn’t triggered by the website. I will admit that I don’t know for sure who is right or wrong in Mister-M’s situation. But I interpreted the tone of his articles as utter frustration with a woman who he believes is not acting in the best interest of the children, and a court system that allows her to get away with it.
Underserved male audience
I do know that what he writes is perfectly plausible. We don’t get many men telling their stories publicly in the Lovefraud forum—probably because they don’t feel at home amid all the complaints and stories about disordered males. After all, the Lovefraud audience is 80 percent women who have tangled with exploitative men.
But I have communicated with many men privately. Through email and phone conversations, they’ve told me about the hell their ex-wives, the mothers of their children, put them through. They tell me of children neglected, emotionally abused, and yes, fed so much junk food that they are obese, and suffering ridicule in school because of it.
I’ve always felt that Lovefraud underserved the male victims of disordered women. So I was glad to see that there was a website for them. And, reading the letters and comments that ThePsychoExWife.com received from its readers, they appreciated, and learned from, the forum.
I frequently receive letters from people thanking Lovefraud for saving their lives. ThePsychoExWife.com receives those letters too.
Range of behaviors
Now, about the other concern raised in the letter at the beginning of this article: The author is absolutely correct. Sociopathy is continuum. Sociopaths—and people with borderline personality disorder—are not all the same. Some are definitely worse than others.
Lovefraud makes this point in several places. In fact, here’s what I write on the What’s a Sociopath? page of Lovefraud.com:
Sociopaths exhibit a range of behaviors. In fact, Dr. Hare diagnoses them according to their score on a scale. So just as you could describe someone’s intelligence as ranging from smart to genius, you could describe a sociopath as somewhere between sleazy and serial killer. If you see sleazy, he or she may be on the low end of the scale, but they’re still bad news.
Our other Lovefraud authors have also addressed this point in blog articles. In Experienced clinician says psychopathy is a spectrum, Dr. Liane Leedom wrote:
The idea that psychopathy is a spectrum and that “sociopaths/psychopaths” vary in severity means that there is no real point at which “normal” stops and “sociopath/psychopath” starts. Any decision about where to draw this line (after gathering information on a large group of people) is in a sense arbitrary.
The idea that “psychopathic disturbance” (as Dr. Meloy calls it) is a spectrum can be very confusing. Many people feel a sense of relief when they finally figure out that the person who has harmed them is “a sociopath.” By “sociopath” they mean categorically different from everyone else, a different type of human. Now I am saying there is really no category, just an extreme on a continuum.
Then, a few weeks ago, Steve Becker, LCSW, wrote an article that really gets to the heart of the problem, called, The special problem of the “sort of” sociopath. He wrote:
There are individuals with whom I work, not infrequently, whom I’d describe as, in some sense, “fall between the crack” personalities. These individuals have sociopathic tendencies. They are almost always chronically abusive one way or another.
Although they may not precisely meet every criterion of the textbook sociopath, still they exhibit, often (and historically) enough, the kinds of sociopathic abuses (and rationalizations of their abuses) that make them sociopathic enough to be avoided as assiduously as the full-blown sociopath.
Interestingly, these individuals can pose worse dangers than pure, unequivocal sociopaths for the very reason that it’s possible to find features of their personality that do not conform exactly to the textbook sociopath’s, leaving one dangerously more optimistic that her partner may be capable of the change and personal growth worth the wait, and suffering.
I’ve put that last paragraph in bold text, and I’ve never put an entire paragraph in bold text on the Lovefraud Blog.
Yes, our email writer is correct. Sociopathy is not a black-and-white issue; there are degrees of disorder. But it doesn’t matter. Partially disordered people are still damaging, and you do not want to have them in your life.
This is Lovefraud’s main message: Sociopaths exist, here’s what they look like, and they are bad for you.
The shades of gray may be important for researchers or therapists. But the objective for the rest of us is simply to keep these people out of our lives. We certainly want to avoid the seriously disordered. But the partially disordered still have the capacity to make us partially miserable. I’d rather not be miserable at all.
Well, what I object to with the “Psychoexwife site” is that it names a SPECIFIC person, rather than a “generic X,” as is always the case on LF. In a situation like Donna’s or Oxy’s where names have been given, I think this is OK, as both of these instances involve serious criminal activity. (In other words, after a certain point “all bets are off.”) However, with this site, this guy is publicly demeaning a woman based on personality traits alone — and the fact that she gives the kids too much junk food!
(For the record, I completely agree with Safeguard: this fellow sounds AT LEAST as unpleasant as he makes his ex out to be. — Not that I’d want to spend much time with either of them!)
So there’s a big difference. Furthermore, the “Psychoexwife” site seems to me (after an admittedly cursory glance) to be nothing but the worst kind of “bottom-feeding,” mixed with appeals to the lowest instincts of everyone involved. At any rate, it’s very hard to imagine how anything constructive could come from this sort of shameless exhibitionism.
I can understand the temptation to behave in this way. However, as a child of divorced parents, I know quite well that there are often “two sides” to these stories. And in any case, this all-too-public forum is not the way that mature adults settle such things — especially when kids are involved.
PS I should add that I’m not sure whether he literally named her or not. But the fact that she’s now a public figure means that it amounts to the same thing.
I am SO grateful to those who are calling Mr.M out. With all due respect, I felt the Original Post implied that those of us, who clearly saw Mr M’s pathology, and how horrific TPEW site was, were somehow…unwell… and not accessing clearly due to “triggers”.
(OP:”Thankfully, I’ve healed enough that I wasn’t triggered by the website”).
Again I beg to disagree…
Some points I call into question regarding the OP:
“To me, the website is similar to Lovefraud—the main difference being that it is primarily about disordered women, rather than disordered men.”
The two sites couldn’t be more different. I would never want someone to claim that I was “like” that. ~Shudder~
“ThePsychoExWife.com advocates “low contact” with the disordered individuals. That’s “no contact” for people who have no choice but to interact because of children—essentially the same advice Lovefraud offers.”
At LF the sanest advice is not just, No/Low Contact. Here we learn NOT to focus on the spath 24/7, relive every ugly, minute interaction, rail and rant, and spend every day, totally focused on our ex. On ONE disordered individual. Ala Mr. M. He simply CANNOT let go of the need to PUNISH his EX! He is RELISHING in this latest turn of events. Where is his EMPATHY for his CHILDREN now that this is public? Nope it’s all still all about him and how HIS rights were violated!!! He’s gonna stand up for the masses and his kid’s will just have to be collateral losses… Parent of the year INDEED! 🙁
“I’ve always felt that Lovefraud underserved the male victims of disordered ”
ThePEXWIFE is NOT a blog for male victims. Of this I am certain.
S
I would also add that this whole thing represents yet another erosion in our cultural life between the “public” and the “private” — a distinction once pointed to by that now quaintly obsolescent standard — “good taste.”
Hello, Everyone,
I am very pleased to be the author of the comments that spurred this discussion.
I absolutely was triggered by the title and creepiness of the PyschoExWife site and I am glad to know I was not the only one. Someone commented that it is often both people that have personality disorders and I couldn’t agree more and, as someone who survived a violent path, I have to admit to my own issues that led me to engage with that person (of course, not knowing he was a violent criminal). I think it does a disservice to all people healing from paths if we avoid discussing why we were hooked because in my view it does not make us culpable for being victimized, it just helps us to see where we need to strengthen and grow ourselves.
Besides the PEW site, I have been concerned for as long as I have been studying sociopathy that some people could be being misled by the black or white, you’re either are a 100% path or not, with a conscious or without. I absolutely agree with Donna that regardless of the degree of sociopathy, paths in any configuration are to be avoided at all costs, but that is my point- just because your path isn’t 100% a path, doesn’t mean s/he is not dangerous psychologically, physically, financially, etc. Paths are notorious for playing their victims and everyone around them. It’s too easy for some people to dismiss path behaviors (if they even know about them) when that same path washes the car or takes the cat to the vet on ocassion. When we as a community of peer educators do not give people the range of behaviors to look for, including the exceptions, we lead people astray. As we all know, the bag of tricks of the paths is quite large and being the one who helps out in a pinch is often their first and best trick. My so and so can’t be a path because they did blah blah really great thing last week. Neighbor so and so couldn’t have abused you and/or be a path because they’re just too great of a guy!
“Even more amazing is the fact that when psychopaths do get exposed by someone who is not afraid to admit that they have been conned, the psychopath is a master at painting their victims as the “real culprits.” Hare cites a case of the third wife of a forty year old high school teacher:
For five years he cheated on me, kept me living in fear, and forged checks on my personal bank account. But everyone, including my doctor and lawyer and my friends, blamed me for the problem. He had them so convinced that he was a great guy and that I was going mad, I began to believe it myself. Even when he cleaned out my bank account and ran off with a seventeen-year-old student, a lot of people couldn’t believe it, and some wanted to know what I had done to make him act so strangely!”
Again, my thanks and gratitude to Donna for this amazing site and I agree with the majority of the comments about how this site is vastly different from the PEW site. This site does not focus on revenge. It focuses on education and healing. Also, as another poster stated, in Donna’s situation there were criminal charges, which does make the matter of public record. And lastly, although, there are women paths, the majority of paths are men and the vast majority of violence on the planet is committed by men. I certainly understand the desire to be inclusive but PsychoExWife is intentionally playing up stereotypically, culturally accepted negativity about women and should not be included here.
“Now I realize that all spaths do stuff like that. they all are obsessed with ingratiating themselves with authorities.”
WOW skylar
exactly describes my (once-criminally active) ex! no matter where we lived he became first name basis with the cops quickly. bragged about being their friend. of course he wanted everyone to like him as he hates himself (i really do believe this, but i wud hate myself too if i were him) and craves RESPECT more than sex even. i have a friend with a bf of 2yrs who also is on first name basis with cops. she tries to tell him NORMAL ppl dont know all the freakin cops in the region and its NOT something to be proud of…
this site is sooo needed to be able to pick up on stuff no one else believes and is SO typical of spaths. we feel so alone in a normal world where ppl dont “get” our experience. they just have no idea wat a hell it is.
whybother:
Bravo!
I, too, was “triggered” by the psycho ex-wife site, and though I have worked hard on my own healing, I couldn’t help but shudder over that site. My ex’s first wife was referred to as
“PBH” (psycho bitch from hell) by my ex…. he even called her that in front of their son. He accused her of everything and degraded her constantly. I felt sorry for him because of all she had done. As time went on, I wanted a relationship that wasn’t centered on his hatred and anger of PBH, but one where we discussed something (anything!) other than what she was doing and why she was doing it (always to antagonize him, according to him).
I got out of the relationship, but prior to getting out, I gave birth to a beautiful little girl. Gaining custody of my child has become the central focus of my ex, and I am now the psycho ex. He has degraded me publicly, in court documents, and in court he lies and makes accusations that never are proven (all so general, I can never prove them to be false). Every person he comes in contact with is bombarded with his “proof” of what a horrible person I am and how psycho I am.
I have done everything in my power to disengage, and we now have no contact, but that hasn’t lessened his anger and obsession, if anything, it has gotten worse. We had another hearing last week, and despite the fact that he only sees our daughter 15% (he was ordered to have 20%, but he cancels at least one 32-hour visit a month). His motion was to have one of her parents “deleted” from her life because he hates me so much. The judge actually bought into this and has ordered the court clinic to determine which parent be removed from the childs life. As if that isn’t going to damage my daughter enough, he also wants all family members of the removed parent also eliminated from her life.
Oh, but don’t worry, according to him, I’m so crazy and worthless, my daughter will be just fine never knowing or seeing her sisters or grandmother again. He and his new “loving” fiance will take care of her. Of course, his loving fiance lives out of state and has no idea how he will control her thinking and all aspects of her life once she lives with him full-time, but all of us here on LF know that it won’t be long before she is discarded and his hatred of me will transfer to her and she will then take over the role of “psycho ex” that is ruining his life.
But for now, it is me. Everything that isn’t perfect in his life is somehow my fault. I live in fear of being accused of something I won’t be able to prove I didn’t do (does anyone else stop at drivethru’s just to get a time-stamped receipt to prove where they were??)…. I have two years of these, just in case…. so after all his antics, maybe I am a bit psycho, but have I done anything to deserve the public shaming and possible loss of my child? Absolutely NOT!
I’m surviving and still refuse to join in the game. I tell the truth about the situation and hope that one day the truth will prevail… I just hope that my daughter doesn’t pay the price for me choosing to take the high road!!
I try to be really fair, and I naturally see both sides of things. (Sometimes not a good idea when you do something like that and you are dealing with a disordered person. I am working on that, though.)
So, I went to the psychoexw after reading the article here a few days ago. I went there thinking about what a poor guy this was, and how awful his ex must be. Most of my serious problems come from female Spaths in my family. So, I was a little skewed onto his side before I went to the site. The name of it didn’t bother me much, either.
It didn’t take long before the red flags were blaring in my face. The whole thing started to make me a little sick as I read. (No, not my pregnancy hormornes as I am past that 😉 lol.)
I think unless you have seen something like this play out irl (not online), or been either in the middle, or on one of the receiving ends of it, it might be very difficult to understand. I have been in the middle of something like this (too old for the internet to have been in the middle), and I have seen other ppl pull crap like the psychoex site in other ways.
I do not think I am able to actually believe what this man and his new wife are saying at all. There are way too many little and big things on their site that I have seen and heard from a spath mission to destroy that make the whole site look UGH! You would not believe the lies I have heard about victims and been on the receiving end of (by the same spaths).
I guess I need to share a couple of stories about my spaths, and new understandings of how things really are. I was confused before, but with all the new information and events that have been happening, I finally get it. Big kuddos to LF! LF has helped me to truly understand and open my eyes to a lot of things in my life. This is a very supportive forum for both women and men alike that are in many different situation with both male and female abusers. It is my lifesaver (and not the jelly ones). The psychoex is not anything like LF!
Hey,
Do we not have any lawyers on here or anyone with lawyer connections that may be able to help Irishsuds out with this? It would be so wrong for her to lose her baby! I have watched the courts, countless times, give the children to worst parents, yet not allow the loving good parents to be in the child’s life. It makes me sick!
Irish, if I were a lawyer I would so help you! I am so sorry you and your baby have to go through this! HUGS!!!!!
Dear Irishsuds,
Welcome to LF and I hope that you can stay strong for your daughter’s sake and that the courts do ultimately see the truth. God bless. Keep on reading and learning, knowledge is power!
Jen, I agree with your assessment of the PEW site….I’m not really sure who is disordered in this couple, but At worst it is BOTH of them and the kids are the pawns.