By | September 9, 2011 61 Comments

Don’t think ‘choices’ and ‘mistakes’ are the same thing

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (retired)

How we define words and concepts helps us to see human behavior in a realistic way. When people make bad choices, and do bad things, things they know are wrong, they ARE still CHOICES, not accidents or mistakes, even though the consequences were unforeseen when they are caught and punished.

I’ve frequently heard people refer to what I consider to be deliberate and knowing “choices” as “mistakes.” In the sentence, “he made a mistake and robbed a liquor store,” my inclination is to scream, “NO, he did NOT make a ”˜mistake,’ he made a deliberate choice to rob a liquor store.” The mistake was he didn’t figure he would get caught, and he was wrong. He got caught and went to prison. The mistake, if any, was in thinking he would not get caught.

Wikipedia defines mistake: “A mistake is an error caused by a fault: the fault being misjudgment, carelessness, or forgetfulness. Now, say that I run a stop sign because I was in a hurry, and wasn’t concentrating, that is a mistake.”

Wikipeida also defines choice: “Choice consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them. While a choice can be made between imagined options (“what would I do if …?”), often a choice is made between real options, and followed by the corresponding action.”

Every living human starts making choices the moment we awaken each day. Do I get up, or do I stay in bed? Do I brush my teeth first or start the coffee? Sometimes our choices lead to unforeseen consequences that we do not want, but the mistake was in figuring out what the consequences of our actions would be, not in the choice we made, unwise though it may have been. The choice was a deliberate one.

Dickey Ray Chance

According to the public records held in the Marion County, Arkansas, Circuit Clerk’s Office concerning the investigation and arrest of Dickey Ray Chance for child pornography and Internet stalking of a child on July 19th, Chance is quoted as saying, “I realize what I have done is wrong and I am really sorry for the wrong I have committed. A terrible mistake on my behalf and  (I) wish that it had never happened.”

Chance’s behavior over a one-year period to carry on a sexually explicit Internet conversation with a person identified as a 14-year-old girl was a choice. The mistake was in judging the consequences of his behavior, and finding out that the “girl” was a Marion County sheriff’s deputy. He immediately lost his job, his benefits, his home, his wife and family, as well as his status in the community and his ability to make a living.

The unintended  consequence (being arrested)  of his behavioral choice  was a mistake, but what he did was a choice.

Making excuses

Many times the people we think have a high level of psychopathic traits will excuse their choices as “mistakes” in an effort to shift the blame for those choices off themselves. There is no doubt that Chance knew it was both legally wrong and morally wrong for him to carry on a sexual discussion over the Internet, or any other way, with a 14-year-old girl, yet he chose to do this action multiple times over a one-year period. This was no error in judgment; it was a deliberate choice. His error in judgment was in thinking he could get away with this behavioral choice without having any legal consequences, and without being exposed as a pedophile.

My psychopathic son, Patrick, knew it was “wrong” to steal, he knew it was “wrong” to kill, yet he made the choices to do both. The mistake he made, however, was in thinking that he would not get caught, even without making much, if any, effort to disguise who had committed those crimes. In fact, he actually bragged about his intention to kill his victim before he did so, and afterwards as well. The choice to kill her was just that, a choice, but the biggest mistake in his life was in not realizing that some other people, even among his petty-criminal associates who, while they may have been dishonest, were not full-fledged psychopaths, and would not view his choices as admirable and macho.

People high in psychopathic traits frequently make choices that harm other people, thinking they can get away unscathed by consequences for these choices. The man who decides to cheat on his wife, but when he gets caught, cries about what a “mistake” it was and how “sorry he is for having hurt her.” The person who steals something, then when caught cries about how they “made a mistake,” hoping the victim of their choice will give them unearned trust again and forgiveness for their “mistake.” The criminal bank robber or rapist wants the public to view his/her behavior as a “mistake,” almost an “accident,” that  happened rather than as a deliberate evil choice to do wrong.

The word “mistake” even indicates to me an “accidental” nature of an event, rather than a consequence of a deliberate choice.  When we choose to give unearned trust to a repeat offender of bad choices, the same way a parole board lets a bank robber out of prison early when he pleads “I’ve learned my lesson, it was just a big mistake,” we are also making a choice, and we will have to deal with those consequences of our choices. In dealing with a psychopath, I can almost guarantee it will be a mistake with consequences we won’t like.

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Joyce (aka Ox Drover),

I have been dealing with this issue myself. The spath was arrrested for “passing bad checks”. He literally told me that he “made a mistake.” I disagree because he has a history of this behavior. Unfortunately, in his twisted way of thinking (not wanting to think badly about himself, I suppose), he’s clinging to the “I made a mistake” take on his fiasco, always downplaying his actions.

Donna, did you actually just read my mind?

I just posted today some quotes from my ex hoping to make a list of possible common “spath-speak” for others to compare notes with, and that was one of the things he had said. Here is the list again in this thread, but I have moved the part about “mistake” to the top:

– She’s got trust issues! She keeps looking at my mistakes rather than at my track record!

– What are your dreams?
– If you didn’t X then I wouldn’t have to Y all the time.
– You are weak. / I see your weaknesses.
– I will kill myself if you don’t”..
– I am being so nice, you bitch!
– It’s very hard for me to deal with your unstable behavior. I have to treat you like this.
– Please, don’t hurt me.
– Oh, come on, I would never do something like that.
– I can’t believe you think I would do something like that!
– Admit that you just are not compassionate enough to forgive me.
– I am just like you.
– I am you now.
– I am a mirror. I just reflect your beauty back to you.
– What you see is not me, it’s you.
– I am God.
– I am Jesus.
– Me, Me, Me!
– My life used to be just about Me, Me, Me, but now it’s all about You, You, You!
– I wish I could respect you, but I just can’t because”.(fill in with ANYTHING)
– All men are like this.
– No other man would put up with you as well I do.
– You are lucky I am so forgiving. Any other man would kill you for this.
– I need the facade because I am afraid.
– I lie because I am afraid
– I lie because these people do not deserve the truth.
– If a woman allows a man to treat her that way, then she deserves it.
– I will never judge you.
– The best form of government is fascism, with me on top. Then I could protect people from all the evil they don’t know exists.
– I have no emotions. I love no one. You are the first person I have ever felt an emotion for.
– I am afraid you will never understand what I gave you, give you, will give to you.
– You are a lower being than me.
– I have a code. No animals, children, or women.
– There is no man in the world who could love you if he knew who you are. You are lucky I do.
– He tells me we can’t trust you (talking about himself)
– I suffer from horrible things that you do when you black out.
– If you really loved me, you would lie to me.
– I love you more than you love me because I am willing to lie to you to make you feel safe.
– You are selfish because you always insist on being honest.
– I hate porn. I really hate it. It objectifies women and it makes me sick. I only watch it for educational purposes. I don’t actually get off on it. I’m just trying to learn from it.
– I won a debate at Yale about porn. The women were arguing that it liberates women and I was arguing that it objectifies them. The judges agreed with me. I got first place.
– I’ve been with about 150 prostitutes.
– I am a virgin.
– I manipulated, played, and lied to you because I loved you and that made me scared, so I had to.
– You should stop talking to that stupid guy. He’s trying to brainwash you into thinking men respect women. He just wants to sleep with you.
– If you were a virgin, then I could be nice to you, treat you well, and give you everything you need.

From Skylar’s:

– No one will EVER love you.
– Love should be unconditional.
– You must respond CORRECTLY.
– You interrupted, so I have to start all over again, from the beginning.
– You didn’t answer the phone!! ALWAYS answer the phone.
– Do you think I’m inconsiderate?

Skylar, by the way, I am cracking up over, “You must respond CORRECTLY.” That is hilarious.

Also, this one, “You interrupted, so I have to start all over again, from the beginning.” This one creeps me out because I used to say that to HIM all the time!!!! Almost those exact words. However, I was saying this because the WAY and the TIMING he would deliberately butt in, and the input he’d blurt out would make my head feel like all my thoughts just got shaken up and I couldn’t remember anymore what I was trying to say. He knew this, so whenever I was on the brink of making a valid point, he would blurt something out that would send my head spinning and I’d say almost exactly that above….but usually I couldn’t piece it all back together again because I’d be so confused by whatever he’d just said that I couldn’t see my own thoughts anymore.

kim frederick

Can I add a few?

I was only joking.
How was I to know you’d take me seriously?
You are too sensitive.
It just happened.
I apologized.
That’s all water under the bridge.
Nobody wants to listen to your drama.
All I want is a little gratitude.
I’m done talking.
Your problem is that you don’t know how to negotiate.
You’re crazy.
You’re stupid.
You’re a bitch.

kim frederick

Oh, and of course there’s this one:
You just don’t know how to treat a man.

Kim, “I apologized” must be a classic.

My father used to always say, “Hey, no one is perfect.”

That was his excuse EVERYTHING line.

Also, “How was I to know you’d take me seriously?”

What a head trip! Total spath-speak! I have HEARD that one too, almost exactly. Did you answer like I did by saying, “Well, EXCUSE ME for BELIEVING YOU. I didn’t REALIZE that I was supposed to take your words as MEANINGLESS! Yeah, that makes A LOT of sense. Then don’t get PISSED next time you say something and I DON’T take you seriously!”

kim frederick

Yep. You stand ther gaping in wonderment. A real WTF moment.

“You just don’t know how to treat a man.”

Heard that one too. They really do all read the same book. I think this one is supposed to mean: Don’t you know that you are my slave and any behavior which suggests that you think of yourself as human is considered deviant and must be punished by God….oh, that’s me, by the way.


Oxy ~

Mistakes can be corrected by using the eraser at the top of the pencil. Everybody makes mistakes, that is why the pencil comes with an eraser. Making bad choices is part of the learning experience, that is how we learn to make good choices. The S/P does not see that connection, they NEVER learn.

Interesting, after the P/daughter started going to therapy (court ordered ofcourse) she learned the lingo – her catch phrase became “I made a bad choice” – she continues to make the same bad choices, but at least she learned something from the therapy.

When I told my ex that his threatening to hurt my cat if I didn’t stop, “Playing the silent treatment,” with him was EVIL and HOW DARE him threaten to hurt my cat, he said, as if this was a totally logical answer:

Of course I wasn’t really going to hurt your cat! I was just saying that because it was the only way to get you to do what I wanted. You know I’d never hurt him, god. Why are you labeling me an animal killer? You made me say that because you were playing the silent treatment and I had to stop you!

Yeah, I did “play” the GAPING jaw “treatment” a lot, because there is really no way to answer this (and almost everything he’d ever say) without screaming and looking like a lunatic.

Milo…”I made a bad choice.”

My goodness. Like a robot.

kim frederick

Love the eraser analogy.
I wrote this years ago:
The little god of white-out cleans up all your sins!!!

I was so in denial that I whited out the truth, in order NOT to deal with it…it was just too overwhelming. Eventually though, the tsunami came.

kim frederick

Yeah. As if he had a right to MAKE you talk to him. As if you didn’t have a choice in the matter. Who the hell do they think they are?

Ahahaha Kim you are hilarious! Who the hell do they think they are!!! Yes, my thoughts exactly.

But, unfortunately, I think we know the answer. They are apparently God and we have failed to comply.

On that note, he did think that I had the right to kill him, and whenever he told me that, I got concerned for HIM and told him that he should love himself more and value himself more and that I certainly do NOT have the right to kill him!!!! What the heck! Clearly this meant he thought he had the right to kill me. That part I’ve come to terms with. What I cannot fathom is that he thought I also had the right to kill him!!! That baffles me. At least he was consistent in his insanity and didn’t have a double standard on that particular topic. But it’s truly a crazy scenario. There isn’t a shred of logic and I was mind-boggled to the point of inertia too often.

Who the hell do they think they are!?


Kim ~ the little god of white out – I like that and will use it.

Panther ~ a robot correct, that is actually the way she says it – just like a robot.

I once talked to her probation officer who told me, your daughter said, “she made a bad choice”. I informed the woman that my daughter’s life is filled with bad choices. To my shock and surprise the woman replied,” I already got that.”


They are all from the same evil mold.

My x once said..”Oh, if I cheated on you, THAT would make me a ‘bad’ person?”


He always said..”I’m not a BAD MAN”.

A g/f of mine who was involved with a ‘badman’ always said the same exact thing!!!!

I swear they are like animals of the same breed. You know how certain breeds have certain personalities, traits…

Sociopaths are a different breed. All the same..Think the same…use the same manipulative tactics and words.

Scary, isn’t it?



It is scary, BUT, they are much easier to detect when they have the same traits and that’s good for us!


I have to share a couple of mine too.

Stalker ex1 (10 years ago we broke up and he stalked me for 7 after):
-You have to be lying, because you cannot be that smart.
-You will never be rid of me.
I blocked out the rest of what he said, didn’t want to waste space in my brain over such a sick person with sick words.

My ex husband’s favorite was:
-I don’t know…..
When asked what he was doing with the $900 a week being spent at Circle K…”I don’t know.” When asked why he took my credit cards, after we had separated, charged them up and then hid the bills from me…”I don’t know.” When asked why the bank account was negative…”I don’t know.” (He made $96,000 a year & I had money too!) Always, with a sad, puppy dog look on his face as he put his head down.

Now, my last ex #3 was the doozie. He never stopped amazing me at the shitty things he came up with:
– I am a pretty good guy.
-You do not like anything I like
-I only lie about drinking, stealing, doing drugs
-I would never steal
-I saw this motorcycle X and I am going to steal it
-I don’t drink or do drugs
-I am not as bad as you say I am
-I am not a bad person
-You are crazy
-I am jealous of you
-You are a psychopath
-I am sorry. I made a mistake. Just drop it.
-That was yesterday, quit bringing up the past.
-She was not pretty, so it is okay that I spent the weekend with her doing coke
-Buy me a motorcycle for $5k. I will pay you back.
-I am looking for a job. Well, not looking but one of my friends will give me one.
-I can’t pay rent because I have to get my car going.
-(car is going) I cannot pay rent because I need to buy a motorcycle
-You are an idiot
-You don’t understand
-You are just a b*tch, C…etc…
-I hope I never meet my kid, because it will have been raised by you, and it would be like you. My reply,” You mean not a sociopath.” And those were the last words I ever said to him in person. You should have seen the look of shock on his face after I said it. It was priceless!

I was pretty embarrassed to have been with 3 spaths in a row. I also wasn’t sure if my exhusband was one or not, until last week. He is a long story, and I do not want to get into that one now.
I couldn’t figure out how I kept ending up with such horrible bfs. They are all from 3 completely different walks of life. I blamed myself, and said I had a horrible choice in men. I just couldn’t figure out how to find a decent one. I even stayed single for years in between, because I was too afraid of picking another nut case.
My counselor, (I dumped him bc he put up a ton of red flags to me. He threw a fit if anyone even held the door open for him, because he said that they were just trying to get some pleasure out of being “nice” and that it wasn’t about him. WTF?) told me that I picked these guys because they seemed familar to me. They were like the people that I grew up with. One problem, I did not want anyone like my parents. I knew the things they did were wrong, and I did not like or agree with them. I tried to pick people who were not like them. Anyway, it all came down to my fault for being with them in the first place. So, naturally I blamed myself, but still could not figure out how in the hell I ended up with them.
It finally dawned on me…They charmed me. I wasn’t trying to pick sociopaths. I was trying to pick loving, caring, kind people in my life. Now, I know about the red flags and coming on too strong. I did not know any of this stuff before. So, it all makes sense, NOW. lol.
I have my whole life ahead of me, and the lessons I have learned from these spaths might have saved me from years of pain with my spath family members.
I know I am really chatty right now, but getting this bottled up mess out is really helping me. I am starting to feel a huge sense of freedom from the hurt and guilt and confusion. Lf is the only place I actually feel safe to discuss this stuff. It seems no one else understands or even cares to understand.


Ox Drover – Thank you for this post and I am sorry about your son.


From what I’ve read, the reason we are attracted to and put up with the freaks is because we pick people who are familiar to us from our childhood.

I never would have agreed with that, before I learned about spaths, but now I do. My spath wore a mask of a liberal, feminist, soft-hearted type, who loves animals. He was a musician, a free spirit, and a genious with mechanical things.

My father, the N, seemed like a raging ego centric, macho, responsible, money obsessed, jerk, who hated animals. I vowed never to be with anyone like him.

My spath brother was charismatic, tough and seemed to be perpetually wounded and needing to be saved.

I think it was my brother that I saw in my ex-spath. But it doesn’t matter, because in the end what they all are is controlling narcissists, with grandiose personalities and that was all I knew and what seemed familiar to me, so I felt comfortable with it. I didn’t know there was a word for it, or that it was a cluster of behavior patterns.

I’ve had 3 german shepards in my life and I noticed a funny thing about them. When they encountered another german shepard, they get very excited. Much more than when they encounter any other type of dog. I wondered why. It’s not like they look in the mirror and know what they look like, so why would they get excited to see a dog that looks like themselves? Well they are just dogs and I’m sure that they don’t even realize that they are extra excited, but it is obvious to me. I finally figured out that they are reacting that way because they are remembering their siblings from their litter and their mother. The look was imprinted in their memories and that’s what is familiar to them.

Ox Drover

WOW! Guys, great conversation!!!!

We are responsible for our CHOICES, but the psychopaths LOVE BOMB us at first so that it appears that we are making a good choice to attach to a good person (kind, loving) but now that we are learning the consequences of this type of CHOICE we are seeing that psychopaths can FAKE good behavior for a short time anyway….so we learn that we should not give our trust TOO SOON to someone who seems “too good to be true.”

It is a mistake to trust someone too soon. So we must petition the “little god of white out” to erase our “sin.” YEA, MILO, I LOVE THAT ONE!!!!

Good points guys!


I believe psychopaths look at us and they mirror ‘us’ in the beginning. Deep down, they hate themselves and they want to reflect back all the good in us. They can only keep up the act for so long until their true colors show. It’s their self-hate that is their demise.


Sky, it does make sense, but I have issues with the first two spaths that don’t go along with that. It is confusing for me.

The first 1 (stalker), was nothing like anyone in my family. He was so different, that it always seemed kind of tense when he was around them. They didn’t care for him, and he didn’t like any of them (well except for the 2 spaths that helped him stalk me, but that wasn’t until after I left him.) . I didn’t know how scary he was until after I left. Before, he just seemed to be turning into a complete jerk, and I left pretty quick. I did not let him treat me like crap (like I did the last one). He was the most dangerous, as he did plot to kill me and my kids.
Also, I was never madly in love with him. It just wasn’t there, and probably because I hadn’t gotten over the man I loved before him. I loved my bf before stalker so very much. In the end, my family ran him off, and I was young and dumb (we both were). We had been good friends before we were bf/gf, and we did at least stay that way after. I think a part of me will always love him.

My ex-husband was also nothing like my family. He came from Ireland, was an engineer, happy, bouncy, fun to be around. He seemed so innocent and everyone trusted him. Too bad I did. He ripped about $30K off of me and $20K from my mom. He also informed me (after we were divorced) that he tried to get his ma to refinance her house so she could give him money to buy a new truck. He had asked me for money during this same convo, in which I laughed so hard.

Neither one of those two were familiar to me in any way. Still even now, I cannot figure out how they could be.

Now, my last ex was a lot like my family. He fit right in with them. They liked him except a couple of the spaths found an excuse of racism (my ex is 1/2 sioux indidan), but still they were nice to him. He was a strange mix of my brother, my dad, and mostly my mother. Talk about a nightmare of a person! LMAO! His family is even a lot like my dad’s family. I did not know this information at first, and after I slowly found out I knew what I was in for. I had a plan to carefully get away so I didn’t get hurt (physically) from him. My gut feeling didn’t like him from the beginning, and I knew better than to not listen. I thought I was being paranoid, and I should be more understanding. I was in a bad situation, so why shouldn’t I be more understanding of someone else’s? STUPID ME! LOL! Always listen to the gut!


Skylar, to follow up on your post, you said this:

I’ve had 3 german shepards in my life and I noticed a funny thing about them. When they encountered another german shepard, they get very excited. Much more than when they encounter any other type of dog. I wondered why. It’s not like they look in the mirror and know what they look like, so why would they get excited to see a dog that looks like themselves? Well they are just dogs and I’m sure that they don’t even realize that they are extra excited, but it is obvious to me. I finally figured out that they are reacting that way because they are remembering their siblings from their litter and their mother. The look was imprinted in their memories and that’s what is familiar to them.

I believe this is very true, and you see it in human beings too. How many people pick dogs who look like themselves?
How many married couples do you see who look like they could be brother and sister?



my family never liked my spath, but they were nice to him and treated him well. He impressed them by fixing things that nobody else could. He was very handy, which nobody in my family (except me) is.

The similarities that our subconscious is picking up on, are not on the surface. I think it is more about the way they interact emotionally with us. Actually, I believe it is their manipulativeness that we find “attractive”. My spath was very protective of me, it appeared. My parents were also very protective, of me, or so they made it seem. They even commented that spath would always take care of me. This was the big lie. Both my parents and the spath wanted only to control me. They also wanted me to suffer. Spath was poisoning me, literally and my parents were emotionally toxic. All this stuff went under the radar, so often times, we don’t see but we feel what is happening. Controlling behavior was presented as protective and concerned. That made it seem like love. So that is what was familiar and attractive to me.

Lone Wolf

Hi guys

I have really missed LF! I have been away for over a month with only occasional net access…am back to London in a couple of days and hope to be participating more. Still not quite up to telling my story but this list of psycho quotes is a great idea i think..helps us to see how our psychos are not unique which helps in feeling less isolated..

A couple of mine from evil sis..

You always exagerrate!
You have always been so theatrical..
Don’t be so melodramatic!
You were always a sensitive child..
You were always crying…you were pathetic..useless…

But also she has said..

You were a knife criminal..people feared for their life…!!

Err so i was both a cry baby incapable of anything AND a dangerous criminal…truly i had a much more interesting childhood than i have memories of….

A lot of what they say contradicts itself but they seem so convinced of each thing they say..i guess what they are truly convinced of is their total overarching sense of entitlement…

I have had enough of them..which is no bad thing. 🙂


I am laughing hysterically over here! You are so funny! Your ex is such a moron! Which one? All of them. The “I don’t know” guy was just priceless. I cannot stop laughing at that. And then, “That was yesterday. Quit bringing up the past.” That just floored me. HILARIOUS! And I thought mine was ridiculous when he said he’d been good for TWO WEEKS (that part said really dramatically) so why am I still hung up on stuff he did for the past year? He has CHANGED (dramatic again) Look at his track record! He actually said, “It’s been two weeks and I haven’t done anything wrong! Admit it that I am a perfect angel and you just don’t have enough empathy and compassion to forgive me!” Priceless.

Yes, they all read the same retard book.

kim frederick

Sky,my experience is much like yours. I was always attracted to controlling men. They seemed so strong and self-possessed and I believed they would take care of me. This taking care of me wasvery, very important, because I had an underlying belief that I could not take care of myself. That came directly from child-hood and a very contollingmother. She sheilded me so much that I never was allowed to experience the things that people experience when they are growing up that lead to a feeling of mastery. She was also a real obsessive/compulsive typ, so she was a real perfectionist, and believed that only she knew the best way to do something, so she usually did it, and I never learned how, or if I did, I didn’t think I’d done it very well.

So I marry who I used to refer to (in my own mind) as, Mr. Clean, the OCD miltary macho guy who was going to take careof me….ahhhh no…not so much.

He rearrainged my cabinets, told me how to cook, stood behind me as I hung clothes on the line and crtisized how I was doing it…decided what brand of everything we’d buy…dictated EVERYTHING.

I felt wiped out and erased.

What I didn’t know was that all those control issues were coming from a place of very little control, and a lot of insecurity. It must have been a tornado inside his psyche. Ha.

So, for me, it comes down to growing up, and learning how to take care of myself.

The funny thing is, I went from super macho x control freak, to super irresponsible drug freak who thought I would take care of him!!! I was still trying to figure out how to take care of myself. But it’s not at all unusual to go from extreme to extreme…It’s just one way of trying not to repeat the same mistake a second time….but it’s still a reflection of the issue at hand. LOL. And through both of these relationships ran my trauma bonding that probably started in childhood.

I did not come from an abusive home. That’s part of the reason it’s so hard to accept. It was incredably disfunctional though.

My Dad had a one-room little house built in the back yard for my Grandfather who lived with us til I was about 5. When he went to a nursing home, my Dad usedit as his man cave. He would spend his time out there drinking by himself, until it was time for dinner.

My mom stayed up all night, reading, and went to bed aboutm an hour before my dad got up. He’d head for work and I’d get up and get myself off to school. My mom would get out of bed at about noon or 1:00, and she’d leave the house andgo shopping or whatever, about an hour before I’d get home from school. She wouldn’t return again til around 7:30 in the evening. We never ate dinner till 10:00 at night. By this time my brother, who was 12 years older than me had been drafted and was overseas. So, I was home alone, alot. I don’t remember feeling much about it at the time, but after I married firstspath, and he would sit in the bar up until bedtime, when he’d come home, looking for sex, I remember a certain feeling comingover me at about the time the sun went down, and it was time to cook dinner. It was a sadness. I had that reaction for many years, and only recently have connected this family of origen dynamic to the fact that all my significant others left me alone justlike that while they ran around and played. And I just stayed put, waiting for them to come home, and love me. It still makes me very sad, just to think about it.

kim frederick

It’s obvious that we didn’t have a family….we had two parents avioding any contact with eachother, and both of them avoiding contact with me.

I think I was looking for a family my entire life and never really found one.

Wow Kim…what a story. And I don’t even want to go there at this moment, but you’ve nailed some of my own issues as well.

By the way, your ex hubby sounds extremely annoying. Sounds like you needed a GIANT fly swatter for him.


That last paragraph you wrote is word for word what i had to experience with my ex. he would do this to me everytime i had something to say. or he would start a conversation with me just so he could do that to me when i had to respond back to what he was telling me. he did this to me for hours and hours non stop with not even any let up of only a minute or two. he was trying to drive me crazy and usually i would come to a point that my mind was so jumbled up i couldn’t even litterally form a single word from my mouth to be able to speak. then that is usually when i would have to sit and curl myself up and start to rock myself like you rock a childand then my mind would start to shut everything out. my hands are shaking as i type this. it’s hard to explain what my mind would do, i guess you would call it shutting down. i think back on that and it really is a miracle i still have any sanity.


sorry, i’m talking about the paragraph you talked about him interupting you and confusing you.

Marcy! Yes, I understand EXACTLY what you mean!!!! I would do the same thing, even the rocking! I’d be on the floor with my head in my hands and wanting to scream. Not being able to form a single word from your mouth YES this is it! I totally understand!!!!!

To top it off, when I’d shut down, he’d go apesh*t and start screaming, telling me that I was now playing the “silent treatment” but really I couldn’t speak if I even wanted to!

Your hands are trembling as you type that….I really know where you are coming from….the thought of this makes my heart pound again and I remember so many times thinking I was the evil one because when he’d start screaming at me and accusing me of playing the silent treatment, I’d get the overwhelming desire to start punching him until he shut up. Or stopped breathing. I didn’t care. I just wanted him to stop. Then I felt so much shame for these thoughts. I don’t know if you read above, but he threatened to hurt my cat once because I was in that state of silence that you describe.

To this day….I still have those thoughts….and since he actually DID do something to my cat, I am always reminding myself that it won’t help anything for me to go back there and find him.

Deep breath. Okay, we are breathing. We are out. We are healing. One day at a time. I guess we need to release this energy though, and LF is the best place for it.

Actually worse even than his screaming sometimes was when his voice got really low and dramatic….this icy cold dead tone as he’d threaten to do something horrible.


Hey Panther, 2 weeks is good! What is wrong with you? ROFL JK!!! My last one, would say how wonderful he was because he “was good all week.” What was wrong with me for not being able to see how truly wonderful he was? Umm…His week consisted of 5 days, because the weekends didn’t count. I am not sure why as he refused to work and had to mooch his beer and drugs off of his “friends”.
He also got insanely disillusional while drinking sometimes. He became very paranoid and thought every one hated him/ was out to get him. His excuse for not getting me a V-day present (note- he never once got me any present for anything so why he had to make this up idk), he was drunk two nights before Vday and.. get this lmao! I “kicked him in the throat with my steal toed boots!” Then it turned into I “kicked him in the throat, jaw, and chest with these same steal toed boots”. I asked him why he was still alive if I did such a thing, and why he had not one mark. I am a strong woman, and I have worked in the construction industry all my life. Now, if I had kicked him, he would have been in pain. If I kicked him in the jaw, he would be wired back together. If it had been the throat, he would have died.
You want to know what I really did?! I told him to take his drunken ass out of my damn house and never come back. He had woken me up in the middle of the night, and it took me a few minutes to realize I had just let the drunk loser into my home. He also woke up my kids.
Yup, I think a lot of spaths do have rocks for brains, at this point. My ex with his “I don’t know” really had me fooled. I really just thought he had some sort of brain damage and was an idiot. That idiot sure has scammed a lot of people though.

Ah you did it again! I am cracking up!

Actually, they are retards. I have decided this. My mother had an in-home daycare my whole childhood, so I grew up around a lot of kids. I know how they reason and argue, and I can say for sure that I have argued with 5-year-olds about who gets the blue cup and seen more rationality displayed than most of the arguments I had with him. Even a 5-year-old can grasp that just because they WANT the blue cup, doesn’t make them entitled to it. All you have to do is explain that someone else wants it too, and they immediately realize that they are not the only person on the planet. Sure, they will still try to reason with you, but at this point it’s from the position of realizing that other people exist and have a right to have the blue cup as well, so they want to negotiate with you and hope to get it. SOME even drop their claim and agree that the other kid can have it today if they get it tomorrow. Try that with an spath. Just try it. There will be little pieces of blue cup ALL OVER THE PLACE by the time you’re done, because if HE ain’t getting that blue cup, ain’t NOBODY getting that blue cup!

This is retardation. It’s got to be.

Or how about this logic. He would say in the same breath something along the lines of, “I have lied to you for our entire relationship, I know. And I’m sorry. But you are emotionally abusing me by subjecting me to all these questions now and expecting me to have to prove all these stories I told you about things I did 15 years ago. You are very controlling and have unrealistic expectations of me. This is abusive!” That is not word-for-word but it’s close. What was I asking him to do? Well, he claimed to have an award from the United Nations, Yale, and Oxford, plus the highest SAT score in his whole country, in addition to a Kickboxing Championship and Bastetball MVP award. He also claimed to have modeled for Calvin Klein. When I asked, “Where are these awards? Can I see them? And where are your photos?” He told me I had unrealistic expectations of him and was torturing him with my unreasonable demands.


it is a form of retardation, but only in the emotional aspects of their brains. 5 year olds are way beyond some of these spaths, who are emotionally arrested closer to the age of 1, if that. They are so determined to be placed on a pedastal of admiration and to be served and loved unconditionally. Just as you would an infant. I’m surprised they don’t ask us to chew their food for them.

But what is even more amazing is their envy. If you had a million dollars and gave 999,999 to them, they would envy the one you kept. And kill you for it.

My spath said he hurt his back and it wasn’t getting any better. He laid around moaning and expecting servitude. Then he would see a “back machine” gizmo on TV and demand that I buy it for him. I still didn’t know what he was, but I had figured out how to derail him. I told him, “you don’t need that back machine gizmo, I’ll BE your back machine for you.” So I positioned myself with my back to him and his calves on my shoulders, similar to the way the back machine would have functioned. Then I did little abdominal crunches, which lifted his butt off the couch. I asked, “how does that feel?”

He replied, “that feels good, it’s helping.”
Then I said, “perfect. Now your back will get better and I’ll get abdominal exercises and a washboard stomach by the time, you’re better.”
There was silence, for a minute. Then he said, “I’m better now. You don’t have to do it anymore.”
LOL! My servitude displeased him if there was any chance of my gaining anything from it. They are SO SO SO SO PREDICATABLE.

Anyway, he stopped whining, he stopped demanding I spend money on the back machine. And was all better the next day.

Envy is the core component of their personality.


Hi Panther,

I didn’t have time to respond to you the other day (and I’m a bit rushed now), but let me give you my quick “two cents” on a few things.

First of all, don’t tell anyone about being spathed – at least no “new” people. Don’t lie about it, but don’t feel obligated to bring it up either. As far as I’m concerned, there’s no need to “define” yourself by what you went through with this guy. You’re probably not ready for a new relationship at this point, but even when you are, it will just muddy the water if you give the new guy too many details. If it were me, I might just say, “He was a jerk, it didn’t work out” – or something like that. Some people will probably disagree with this, but I never even bring up what happened to me as far as “new girlfriends” are concerned. I don’t know why exactly, but it just seems to work better that way.

Next, don’t worry about being a “Salem Witch Hunter” for the time being. In fact, for about a year or two, you should imagine yourself as the “Grand Inquisitress of Spaths,” who is going to auto de fe anyone who so much as looks at you funny! Of course, it isn’t healthy to ALWAYS be like this, but I think the danger now lies rather in undershooting the mark than in overshooting it. (Again, many will disagree with this, so take that for what it’s worth.)

Finally, the real $64,000 question from my perspective, is how in the hell you ever came to think of this guy as your “soulmate”? In other words, you list the disgusting things he said to you as well as his repulsive behaviors – and I’m constantly shaking my head, thinking, “Okay, so where’s the soulmate in all of that?” Indeed, my very strong impression is that this built-up image of him was entirely the coinage of your own brain. In short, projection and more projection!

At any rate, perhaps it would be wise to go into your next relationship with more modest expectations (i.e., especially in light of your apparent tendency to over-idealize and “poeticize”unworthy people, etc. – something I used to be guilty of as well). I’ve said this before, but I think the whole “soulmate” notion is very dangerous, as it creates an exaggerated idea of what other people can do for us. In the end, we don’t find “salvation” or happiness through other people – we find these things in ourselves. And whether we happen to meet another like-minded person on our journey of self-discovery, well, that is more of an afterthought than anything else.

Okay, gotta run. Just wanted to give you a bit more “food for thought!”

Lone Wolf


I am so sorry spath actually went as far as hurting your cat. That is the lowest of the low. I..would want to kill spath if that were me. I admire your stoicism. Stay strong. xx

Skylar, you are funny today too. The one dollar envy example is disturbingly accurate. I don’t know how it’s possible that I spent more of my own money on him than I did myself. I didn’t even have enough money to meet my basic needs, and he was throwing temper tantrums when I didn’t buy his unemployed butt an iPod. I would rather live with a toddler in his/her terrible 2s for the rest of my life than an spath.

I am also surprised they don’t ask us to chew their food for them. It’s really unfortunate that we are able to relate on this. I wish this were a room full of crochet enthusiast chatting about needles and thread. Instead we are all….just so many people….who all dated the same man….I am convinced this one guy is like Santa Claus and just was able to date us all somehow. He is about as real as Santa too. At least Santa leaves presents. Sociopaths just eat the cookies and then set the house on fire.

Lone Wolf, I DO want to kill him. He was probably hoping I would or something sick like that so we would be bonded for life.

Constantine, you are only hearing about the year after the love-bombing, that’s why. He was a perfect angel for the first 6 months. Speaking of animals, he even had a cat, which actually came into his life suddenly after I did. I now realize that he got the cat because I had a cat. He always made a big display about petting dogs we passed to demonstrate that he “loves animals” as much as I do. The first 6 months that I knew him he was like my hero, he swept me off my feet with roses and romantic text messages ALL DAY (red flag I missed), and all his speeches about feminism. YES feminism! He presented himself as a feminist and made strong arguments against his own true beliefs (which I only later discovered). He love bombed me to high heaven, to say it in a few words. He love bombed me to smithereens. And remember too that he swooped in after his best friend, spath #1, had slept with me and then dumped me cold after telling me he loved me. Then in came spath #2 saying how he was going to kill his friend over how he had treated me, that I was such a valuable, beautiful creature, such a GOOD PERSON bla bla bla. He caught me when I was weak. I thought he was my soulmate because he studied what I wanted and became it to the T. He was into art, music, philosophy, humanism. He was attentive, a good listener, patient, understanding. He looked deep into my eyes when he said he loved me. He cried in my arms and told me that he had been looking for me all his life and then begged me to please never hurt him, because he was like a baby in my arms.

He manipulated my emotions into thinking I had found my soulmate, like a demon showing up on my doorstep as a puppy that grew quickly into a protective, loyal, and loving dog, and then tried to kill me.

Everyone it’s really late here and I’m exhausted. I am going to sleep now.

Catch you all later.

Thanks for your view Constantine.



yeah Panther,
I know it’s funny, but it’s one percent true about what happened. It’s funny in hindsight, and when I was playing with his head, I felt quite satisfied to “one-up” him, but there was another feeling I had at the same time. It’s hard to describe it. Maybe it was a WTF? feeling. And also a feeling of disgust. Yes, that was it: disgust. I found it disgusting that he could hate me so much, that he wanted to see me suffer. Since there was no reason for it because I had loved him with all my heart and was willing to literally bend over and strain my back to make his back better.

This is a critical element about spaths. You see, most people think that for a spath to want to hurt you so much, you must have done something to deserve it. They assume a fiery relationshit with drama on both sides. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. I gave and gave, he took and took, and he hated me for it.

Yet, I overlooked it. And now I know it was because my family was the same way and I was forced to overlook it then. I thought it was normal to be so disgusting. Yuck. I don’t anymore.


It does sound like the same man! Sky, my ex was a musician (damn good too), spiritual (okay that turned out to be a complete joke), sensitive, blah blah blah. He also hurt his back, but that was when he was with his ex, and she had to “take care of him”. He always whinned about it to me, but I have a crappy back so he got no where with me. I told him, if you rub my back, I will rub yours. He refused to give me more than a 3 min back rub, so that is all he got from me.
Panther, my ex wanted me to buy his unemployed ass all sorts of stuff, too. I didn’t, though. I told him to get a job and take me out once in a while, well after he starting supporting himself instead of living off of others.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize I was mean to my ‘ poor’ spath the last half of our relationship. I was very nice and went along with his crap up until the point I felt like he was using me. That was also about the time he started being mean to me. He was oh so sweet and loving before that. He acted like I walked on water.
So, him and his family (they were all the same, sucking and using everyone dry around them) for something (ie a ride, money, beer, anything) and I would say no. That really started pissing them all off. “Can I borrow X?” “no.” It soon became no, no, no…. And then I would ask him why he never ever took me out. Why did he expect me to take him out and pay for things? Why did he not work? Why did he think he was special and could mooch off of everyone? I told him I thought he was a total user and had no real friends, since he only wanted to see them when they had something (ie beer coke) he wanted.
I started calling him out on everything. He kept getting worse, too. The things that came out of this man’s mouth in a matter of months became more and more shocking. He started talking about how he was going to start stealing and robbing from his neighbors, because “they had so much and he didn’t.” I told him because they freaking WORKED! I told him that most of them had gone to college, and spent years working for what they had (he lived in an older ppl upper mid class neighbor in a home they inherited from his gma.), and that he could have done the same. I told him it was his fault he wasted and continued to waste his life away.
I also kicked him out of my home or got up and left when he started being mean to me. My big screw up was feeling sorry for him and letting him come back into my life each week afterwards. That was before I found out some ppl were permanently broken.
I should have been done for good way back when it started. I knew something wasn’t right with him from the beginning. I can say that by the time it was over, he made me sick. I think I hated him. I was so happy when he was gone.
I think I felt more sorry for him being so damn stupid. No intelligent person says or does the things he does. Yep, 5 year olds are more intelligent, understanding, and easier to deal with than spaths! I would take a kid, in the mist of a terrible 2 or 3 tantrum, any day over a grown spath!

Lone Wolf


I hope you slept well.

I can see that short tho my prior post was, I did not make my meaning clear. i mean to say that whilst of course, you might want to kill him -as i would- that you were stoical in choosing not to do that.

The contrast between the harm they do and our patience and stoicism in response is really does feel as if we are alien species sharing the same planet.

Ox Drover

Quote Constantine:

“I’ve said this before, but I think the whole “soulmate” notion is very dangerous, as it creates an exaggerated idea of what other people can do for us. In the end, we don’t find “salvation” or happiness through other people ”“ we find these things in ourselves. And whether we happen to meet another like-minded person on our journey of self-discovery, well, that is more of an afterthought than anything else.”

TOWANDA!!!! Connie! How true, how TRUE!!!!! Happiness only comes from within ourselves….otherwise it is not really stable because it depends on something outside ourselves….and then it can go away, be stolen, vanish or in some way be lost. Only that inner happiness and peace can never be taken away.

I ultimately let my happiness DEPEND on my husband, and when he died, I lost my everything. He didn’t deliberately die, frankly I’m sure he would have chosen to live that day if he hadn’t been so terribly injured, but he didn’t have a choice.

Now I can ENJOY my relationships with others, but my life doesn’t depend on it. Just like my relationship that ended last January with my “best friend” for 30+ years. She was a BIG part of my life, and I still have wonderful memories of our relationship, but it ended, I’m sorry about that, but it did not result in my happiness ending. My happiness did not depend on my friendship with her. My happiness depends on me.

My relationship with my son C essentially ended a year and a half ago, but though it was very painful to end that relationship, my LIFE AND HAPPINESS did not depend on having a relationship with him.

Just like Kim said, when I was a kid I wanted someone to take care of me, and ended up growing up to be a care taker of others myself. Now I take care of myself. I can SHARE with others who care for themselves, but I know I can not TAKE CARE of them and ultimately, no one can take care of me!


OMG! I sat in that exact same position; down on the floor with my head in my hands as far into a corner i could get because like yours my ex would flip out at me when i got like that. he would be screaming at me too, but instead of saying i was giving him the silent treatment, he would be screaming at me to ANSWER HIM. i never thought it was me who was evil. i knew it was him. he would look at me and omg the evil that looked out at me, like someone who has a evil demon inside possessing their body. i would have to cower into a corner as far as i could fit because next came the pulling my hair and the punching. i’m sorry he hurt you cat. i have deep love for animals. i lost my dog Lucy to cancer 5 yrs ago. i didn’t stop crying for 3 yrs. now i remember the happy memories of her life, i had her since she was born, and she was only 8 when she was taken from me. but i still now and then will find myself crying sometimes because i miss her so very much. i copied the words to the rainbow bridge story on here and have it hanging on my bedroom wall now.


Ah, the “path lingo”. The aforesaid phrases are all too familiar. And I might have a few of my own.

It isn’t my fault you’re too stupid to understand what I’m saying.
I DID tell you. YOU weren’t listening.
I know I make mistakes sometimes. I’m only a demi-god.
It/he/she/they/you belong to me.
(After making someone cry) I maintain that she lacked sense of humour.
I don’t care.
I don’t want people to do what I do. I want them to do what I tell them to do.
People are pathetic.
People are stupid.
The common man is a fool.
I am better/smarter than everyone else.
I’m not gloating. I’m simply stating a fact.
Gun for hire would be such an interesting career.
Leave, you say? Go ahead. I’ll find someone worthy of my time.
Why don’t you spend more time with me?
Leave me alone.
Hm… (Ignores)
You see? That’s why people judge you.
If you only listened to me, this wouldn’t have happened.
Oh, I’m sorry I offended your poor widdle feelers. I guess somebody should’ve told you the world isn’t full of rainbows and fluffy bunnies.
You’re so naive.
Every time you say that, a little part of me dies inside.
Yes, but no one cares what you think, so we’re going to do what I want to do.
You had it coming.
You shouldn’t’ve poked the bear.
You’re such a child.
You’re such a spoiled brat.
Why do you love me? Why?
But I make up for all my flaws with my proficiency in the sac.

I know two psychopaths who are dating … each other (although, they deny it). They have, uh… some rather interesting conversations.

Meyers, can you get a recording of those conversations? They must be hilarious…..

This creature you’ve quoted above…wow. What that a female spath? Sheesh, they are certainly not any better. I’d love to throw her at my ex like a grenade and let them spar like Gladiators.

Sociopath claims to be cured:

Interesting…and recent….I am tempted to respond to him….I’m so curious what he did and if he’s telling the truth.

Lone Wolf: Yes, the stoicism on my part was hard. VERY hard. I wasn’t only stoic because I didn’t have a mind to do something to avenge my little baby (my dear cat whom I loved very much), but because I was so afraid of him after realizing what he was truly capable of that I didn’t think it was even worth the risk to get close enough to him to kill him. He’s a lot bigger than me and probably would have won. But I have killed him in my head many times, after torture. In the end, the contrast is very staggering. I didn’t do anything to him…I just left him so that nothing and no one else that matters to me is compromised by his complete inability to have any morals whatsoever.

The hardest part in the end is knowing that I saw the signs and didn’t heed them, and as a result, I endangered a helpless animal that was reliant on me for its livelihood. I made a bad decision in staying with this guy, and someone I loved got hurt. I feel tremendous guilt for this. That cat trusted me the way an animal does…you know…when they would just let you do anything, hang them upside down, snuggle them for hours, take them to the vet without panicking. He really trusted me to keep him safe….and I let the devil in through the front door of our safe home. I am tormented by guilt over this and wonder every day if he is even still alive. I cannot bear the thought that he may have suffered in any way. Even to be away from me I know would hurt him, though, because we had a strong emotional bond and the cat would miss me. We were very close.

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