By | September 11, 2011 80 Comments

When the towers fell, I already knew the feeling

World Trade Center

World Trade Center on September 7, 2011. Photo by Tracy Andersen.

Before sunrise on September 11, 2001, my rowing partner, Mary, and I, were already on the water for our morning workout. As darkness imperceptibly gave way to light, the bay was calm, the air was clear—an absolutely beautiful day dawned. We glided past herons and egrets, enjoying the quiet peace of Nature.

A couple of hours later, I was driving to a 10 a.m. meeting when I heard something on the car radio about a small plane crashing into the World Trade Center in New York City. By the time I reached my client’s office, all of her co-workers were standing around a radio. Both towers of the World Trade Center were hit, and the announcers were talking about a terrorist attack.

“What do you want to do?” I asked my client. Neither one of us knew the office protocol for terrorist attacks.

“I guess we’ll have the meeting,” she said.

So we did. But from the expansive plate glass windows in her conference room, I had a clear view of the flight paths into Atlantic City International Airport, which was about eight miles away, right in the middle of the busy Northeast corridor. Jet after jet was landing. None were taking off.

I rushed home after the meeting and turned on the television, shocked at the images that played over and over on the screen. A huge jet, loaded with fuel, crashing into the tallest building in New York. One tower fell, then the other. It was horrifying.

Was my family safe? One brother had an office in Lower Manhattan. My other brother was managing a construction project at Newark International Airport. My sister had flown to Hawaii a few days earlier. Gradually, when cell phone calls finally went through, I learned that my family was okay.

Thousands of other people weren’t so lucky.

Thousands of other people, through no fault of their own, had their lives ripped apart. People on their way to important destinations, people starting their day at work, were suddenly gone. The people who loved them were left to ask why.

Why did this happen? What had they done wrong? What did I do wrong? How am I going to survive?

They clung to hope, and then there was none.

I knew what that felt like.

A year earlier, I was forced to give up hope. I had been pursuing my $1.25 million judgment against my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery. I was convinced I would find the money, and it would right my life that had been so wronged.

Before meeting my ex, I had been going to work every day, having fun when I could, and hoping, along the way, to make a romantic connection. James Montgomery presented himself as the love of my life. In truth, he was a terrorist who intentionally crashed into everything I had built, and brought it down.

I was outraged. I was an upstanding, responsible human being. I had done many things right and nothing wrong, yet my life was ripped to shreds.

I sought justice. The court said I was right, and the judge in my divorce awarded me everything that was taken from me—$227,000—plus $1 million in punitive damages. I pursued the money until 2000, when I had no choice but to admit failure. I was not going to recover what I had lost.

I collapsed. I raged. I demanded answers from God. What had I done to deserve this?

On September 11, 2001, and in the following traumatic days, I couldn’t breathe. I viscerally felt the nation’s collective horror. I knew the outrage, the confusion, the fear, the hope and then the hopelessness. I felt like I was reliving how my own life had crashed, magnified by a hundred, or perhaps a thousand.

A couple of weeks after the devastating tragedy, I wrote a poem. It was all I could do.

One Day In September

By Donna Andersen

Tuesday the eleventh dawns like any other day
Sunlight breaks the grayness as we row upon the bay
Herons, gulls and egrets barely glance as we glide by
They’re the creatures, at this hour, that rule the brightening sky
These mornings are a treasure, Mary and I agree

Ten o’clock my meeting is all scheduled to begin
Everyone is staring at a radio as I walk in
The peak of New York City has exploded into fire
Thick, black smoke is billowing from our economic spire
Do we work? Do we stop? Are they getting out?

Message light is blinking where are you? Are you there?
Are your brothers in New York today? Is your sister in the air?
Cell phones are not working have you seen the awful news?
What on earth is happening? Has anyone a clue?
Yes, the TV’s on, but I can’t absorb the scene

News uninterrupted, it’s bad and getting worse
Crash into the towers the idea is so perverse
Ten thousand in each edifice had just begun their day
Now a pile of rubble and all I can do is pray
Let there be survivors, please; God, we need you now

Jet slams into shining glass
The hundredth time today
Another angle, another shot
Let’s review that play
But this is not a game

Fires burning, twisted steel, it’s such an wrenching sight
Sweetheart, please come over, I can’t be alone tonight
Earlier this morning it was birds that ruled the sky
Now it’s raining jet fuel why did they have to die?
All those lonely pillows in so many empty beds

Family and friends are safe, but I can’t catch my breath
Two degrees of separation keep me from knowing death
Mary’s childhood classmate was one who called his wife
From up above the fire, hoping vainly for his life
Never did I know him, yet still I feel the loss

Countless private tragedies just add to my distress
How can I stop crying, ease the tension in my chest?
My brothers at ground zero passed buckets hand to hand
The president promises that America will take a stand
I am just a writer, searching desperately for words

Holes punched in our confidence, life forever changed
But this I know from experience: Good can come from pain
Our hearts have been ripped open, yet open hearts can feel
Compassion for each other may be the gift of this ordeal
Pray it is a turning point in our human history

Search for justice underway
Portends a mourning dove
In the end, there’s love and fear
And fear is lack of love
Our caring may be our hope

Posted in: Donna Andersen

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Ox Drover


A very moving article. I am sure each of us also remember every moment of that day when we heard the news…

Your poem (a stanza copied here) I think sums up the event for us all 10 years out.

Holes punched in our confidence, life forever changed
But this I know from experience: Good can come from pain
Our hearts have been ripped open, yet open hearts can feel
Compassion for each other may be the gift of this ordeal
Pray it is a turning point in our human history


Thank you for posting your poem, Donna. and for reminding us it was sociopaths who terrorized us on that day.

At that time I was surrounded by sociopaths and didn’t know it, but I remember the reactions from them. They milked it.

My spath woke me up, “Wake up, the US has been attacked.”
I looked at the drama queen skeptically, “Yeah, where?”
“EVERYWHERE!” he replied.

But of course, where else? As I turned on the TV and watched, I remember the feeling of wonder. When am I going to find out this wasn’t real? But it just kept getting more substantiated. In the following weeks, I watched the news reporting the atrocities of the taliban on women. The brutal execution of women in a soccer field is the one that is recorded most indelibly in my mind. The spath said he had to tape it, so he could show it to people who doubted that we should go to war in Afghanistan. Now I know he had to tape it to watch it over and over because he got off on it.

My spath brother in law, called to tell me how he couldn’t help breaking down in tears throughout the day. He was hoping to feed on my emotions as well. He cares nothing for anyone and refers to human beings as “garbage” and “sheep” and he refers to himself as a “wolf”.

Though we are human and must respect our emotional reactions, it’s important that we don’t allow spaths to feed on them. They will pretend to commisurate, just to get our emotional spigots turned on. Watch for it. In your family, in your friends and on the news.


The spath fake killed the fake boy on September 12, 2009. ever the drama queen, perhaps she thought she wouldn’t get enough emotional response from people on the 11th…waiting until the 12th (starting the ‘it’s about to happen’ on the 10th, drawing it through the 11th when people were more emotionally vulnerable, and trumping the emotional level in the wee hours of the 12th.)

She has often claimed (in her various scams) to have been raped, traumatized, abused and molested by family members, pimped out by family members and lovers; suicidal, dead of cancer, and other diseases. And each time she does this she denigrates the true experiences of ‘real’ people.

She killed him when she did so that she could get the biggest bang for her buck – and leave her dupes with a twinned memory. She denigrates the memory of those who died on 9/11.


seems to me she was worried that the focus of attention would shift from her to the real tragedy of 9/11. Can’t have THAT!! She tried to upstage 9/11. spaths. they love drama and they have to be at the center of it.

Too bad they weren’t all at the trade center that day….
hmmm… that gives me an idea. A spath convention!! We’ll finally have them all in one place….

oh wait, I misread your post. She killed him off in 2009. I see. She wanted to commemorate the anniversary of the initial scapegoating on 9/11. So she brought her own imaginary substitute sacrificial lamb. Just like communion at church.



oh sky, you don’t know how many memories you tweaked, ‘So she brought her own imaginary substitute sacrificial lamb. Just like communion at church. ‘

no idea.


i just listened to this radio show. it’s about sacred ground as it relates to 9/11.
i hope that you can listen to the the podcast:


Donna, That was a powerful poem.


One Joy,
for me to find meaning in the experience of living with so many sociopaths, I had to look for something much much larger than myself.

I found it in Rene Girard’s philosophy. He wasn’t really a philosopher. He was looking for a commonality in the great works of literature. He wanted to know what they had in common. There is no soundbite to explain what he found, but if I HAD to say one thing, I’d say: spaths.

Girard doesn’t write about spaths. I don’t think he has a clue about them. He writes about mythologies and primitive societies.

I stumbled upon his works because I was looking to understand why my spath wanted to punish me for his hatred of his mother. What I found was a description of primitive people, their mythology and their behavior, which ABSOLUTELY mirrored the behavior of spaths! I can see no difference.

When you described what your spath did on 9/12 – you confirmed it, once again. It’s hard to describe, and many people may not quite see the corrolation. Rene Girard is not the only one to describe it. Lloyd Demuse calls it the hysteroidal cycle. They become hysterical in cycles and they need drama so that they can reach catharsis. The sacrificial lamb is brought in. Sometimes it is real, sometimes imaginary. It doesn’t matter too much, so long as the trauma is commemorated. A dramatic re-enactment brings the crowds to hysteria and catharsis, then they mellow out and go home again. The sacrificial lamb redeems them, by being a scapegoat. Their sins are on the scapegoat and they feel relief by blaming the innocent.

Sick huh? it’s human history re-enacted over and over again.


sky – and although i have not had the life experiences of the fake boy, perhaps i identified with him because he was the scapegoat, loved him and wanted to care for him because he was the scapegoat. how terribly abnormal of me.

btw – i see no evidence of the scapegoat existing in buddhism…where there is no diety (the buddha is an internal concept, not an external one: ergo, no sin to be created, punished and absolved by scapegoating). I will ask my root teacher about this one also.)


morning onejoy,
that would be very interesting to research. I might do a quick google on buddhism and scapegoats or sacrifice.

Girard’s theory about the sacrificial lamb is that Jesus came to reveal this hidden scapegoat mechanism and put an end to it by allowing himself to be sacrificed, though obviously innocent. But, it didn’t work. The spaths, just inverted it and kept right on going.

But supposedly, the Gospels are all about revealing what was hidden. I can see that Jesus continually spoke about hypocrites – almost non-stop.

There is something about the scapegoat which tugs at our heart strings. I am that way too.

Spaths, on the other hand, when they see a scapegoat, they get bloodlust.

My spath brother tugged on my heartstrings since he was a little boy. My spath mom tried to make him the scapegoat and abused him worse than the rest of us. I think she was trying to get revenge on my N dad for cheating on her.

Ironically, the only reason I know about the cheating (believe me, I would never have IMAGINED my father doing such a thing) is because my brother remembers my mom saying to him (as a 4 year old), “look at your father, he comes home with his underwear on backwards”. I asked my mom if this was true and she laughed and said, “yes”.

Because she is a spath, my mom transferred her hatred of my dad towards his son. Now the son is a spath too.

I’m not sure, but I think her issue with me is that I loved my spath brother so much (we were only one year apart).


good orning sky – i should have added, also that there is no sin, only karma – nothing to be scapegoated about. We live with our karma,we burn it off, all the while creating more karma (which by definition is not moralistic, right or wrong – it is just ’cause and effect’). No sin = no scapegoat.

when we are little we will love all sorts of toadly things…either those already formed or just developing.


btw – as time went on the spath used to talk will disdain about the ‘fat old man’ who was supposedly the boys partner who died of cancer (when i started writing to ‘him’)…turns out spath is fat and old. can’t find a pic of her husband but….

she also talked about this couple that were the bf’s relatives – who lived in the US – (interestingly enough a short drive to where she really resides). makes me really uncomfortable as she had pics of the ‘boy’ visiting said area…makes me think she has actually met him (through his work – wcich she buys) befroe she started stealing his life – or while.

gonna go puke now.


Thank You Donna for the poem. I think we can all resonate when we look back and remember how the spath pulled the rug out from under us.

You were very fortunate you were able to prosecute James. I can remember I had a very strong case for prosecution against my spath but in the early 80’s little could be done.

Now in this day and age I believe with the right attorney I could have made waves and even brought his mother & long-term girlfriend up on charges for being accomplices in the wedding scam mine pulled on me.

Of course I didn’t lose anything near the amount you lost but it was bad enough how he scammed me due to the fact I was a self supporting single mom with 2 small kids and no child support coming in.

Some days when I contribute to the threads here I have to take a break from LF for a few days because I get so overwhelmed by grief thinking back on how mine used me and never had any intention on establishing a permanent marital relationship.

What really blows my mind was his mom & long-term girlfriend.
He was sick but they were co-conspirator’s and went along with the sham and these 2 women supposedly had normal mentality.

Like James, mine also swept me off my feet and professed total love for me. I had never had such a relationship like it before but he was love bombing me and I was too young and stupid to see the truth let alone be aware of a “sociopath” and all the baggage that goes with it.

On another note, my cousin a financial broker made it out of the twin towers alive because his office was on one of the lower floors. Since 9/11 he is a changed man almost as if his spirit was broken. I know he’ll never be the same. He witnessed so much carnage but he’s grateful to God he’s alive.



Some things we experience in life do change us forever. So sorry to hear about your cousin, but thank God he made it out. My church had a phenomenal service this past weekend commemorating 9/11. It was unbelievable. The lead Pastor interviewed a firefighter from one of the rescue squads in NYC and he was the ONLY ONE to survive from his entire unit. He gave a very, very detailed account of what happened that day…it was very moving and surreal. His lungs collapsed 16 months later from everything he breathed in that day and he retired from the fire department and has spent the last ten years just spending time with his wife and children.

Ox Drover

Joanie, PTSD from significant trauma does take a toll on “survivors” and it sounds like your cousin is one of those. I saw interviews last night with survivors and people who worked in the rescue there that day and other days and to a man/woman they all had PTSD.

Those of us who were inland, hundreds if not thousands of miles away, still had a traumatic experience through viewing it live on television, enough so that we still retain the “visions” inside our memories. I don’t know a soul who was old enough to remember that day that doesn’t remember that day, what they were doing, and what they felt. It is the “pearl harbor day” of our generations, along with the day Kennedy was killed and a few other significant events.

For those of us who had our PRIVATE HELL with the psychopaths, we also have memories of those traumas as well. We may never remember an “ordinary” day or what we did or the date, but we will always remember the “significant” days of tragedy. I hope your cousin can recover but sometimes it takes active therapy to recover from any tragedy of this proportion, that is what LF does for us, “trauma recovery therapy.” It really doesn’t matter what the REASON for the trauma is, it needs processing pretty much in the same way. Learn about trauma, what caused it and what might prevent it in the future and then process it internally.


Yes, 9/11 was the work of real psychopaths. They have not been caught though. Watch this documentary to see the extent of this truth:


great link, freedomfare.
The collapse of the 3rd tower was a classic sociopathic tell.

It was an “in your face” tell that dares you to believe the truth, because they knew that people would rather believe the lie. Only humans who have experienced a psychopath can see it.


I just finished watching that video, it really is phenomenal, but it’s over 2 hours long! It was well worth it for me, but if you can’t spend the 2 hours, I recommend the last 25 minutes. Stream the entire video and then move the cursor to 1:54 and start to watch. Everything they describe about the psychological states of trauma is exactly what we have experienced here on LF. They explain cog/dis and denial. It was riveting.

thanks freedomfare

Ox Drover

I may be going to be “flamed” here for this opinion, but I do not think the men who planned or executed the 9/11 attack were necessarily psychopaths, but put out that they may have been Zealots, but not necessary psychopaths.

Not every soldier or spy for a cause they believe in is a psychopath (though of course there are always some soldiers or spies who ARE psychopaths) but in the accomplishing of that they believe is a legitimate mission they know that the deaths of many people, some innocent non-combatants, will die, but they believe that the mission, the war, etc. is worth it.

Look at the pilots of the planes who dropped the bombs on Japan to end World War II. Are those men psychopaths? Their bombs resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of mostly innocent victims. Does that mean they had to be psychopaths? I don’t think it does. Does that mean their bombs didn’t kill innocent victims? Of course not.

I think Zealots (Wiki definition: Zealot (from Greek ζηλωτής – zelotes, “emulator, zealous admirer or follower”) can be anyone who has been “brainwashed” or totally convinced that their “cause” is just and that they must fight for that cause in any way that is necessary for it to prevail.

There are zealots for many causes….the aniti-animal research zealots who go and break open research labs and release the animals, the anti-abortion zealots who go bomb abortion clinics, and so on. Soldiers who go to war against another nation and believe in their causes.

Here are a couple of examples of what I think are “extreme” examples of zealots where only one person was harmed, their child, but they SINCERELY believed they were doing right.There is a couple in prison right now, (I read about it last night) who were vegans and they fed their baby on soy milk and apple juice until he starved to death at age 6 weeks, and they are in prison now. Another couple have just been charged with killing their child by not allowing him to have medical treatment, but preferring “faith healing” when the child was born sick and weak.

These two sets of parents were unwise, misguided in my opinion, but they were SINCERELY following their belief systems to the best of their ability. Yet, our society says that even if the parent is sincere in their beliefs that if the beliefs are harmful to the child that the State has a right and a DUTY to preserve the life and health of the child.

Just like those parents who willingly gave their children to be the multiple wives of Tony Alamo and Jeffs at an age in which the child was not able to legally consent to such an arrangement. Those parents were SINCERE in what they did, they weren’t probably psychopaths, although I believe the damage they did to their children was massive.

I firmly believe from reading very good biographies of them that Hitler and Mao were psychopaths, and some of their leading henchmen were also psychopaths, but not every Nazi was a psychopath, and not every Communist Chinese was a psychopath, even though they may have followed the “party line” in the things that they did.

So not everyone, even those who do things that result in horrible damage to individuals, to groups, or even to countries, is a psychopath no matter how big the damage that is done.

I totally disagree with the rabid Muslim teachings that all kafirs (Wiki definition: Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic term used in a Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as “unbeliever” or “disbeliever”, or sometimes “infidel”. The term refers to a person who rejects God or who hides, denies, or “covers” the truth.) must die. I totally disagree that anyone who doesn’t believe as I do must be punished or die. But that does not mean I will or think our country should stand around when zealots of any kind attack individuals or our country as a whole.

I don’t doubt for one minute that some of the higher up zealots use this zealotry as an excuse for power and control of others to do their bidding, but at the same time, I think some of the “soldiers” in their armies are simply misguided, but sincere individuals who have been convinced that their violent acts are for the “greater good of the greater cause.”

The various inquisitions were religious zealotry at its finest and thousands of people were tortured or burned at the stake for their “hearsay” against the prevailing religions and I have no doubt that some of those who were burned were my ancestors and some others of my ancestors were the ones who lit the fires.

While “western” cultures have more or less grown out of this religious zealotism, other cultures are still mired in this “believe my way or die, infidel!” Changing those cultures mired in religious or social zealotism is a big job and I do not believe can be accomplished by force, but only through education and will take several generations (at best) of exposure to other ways of thinking.

In our own culture, women have had the vote for less than 100 years, slaves have only been free for a 150 years, so it takes time for cultures to change and internalize new ways of believing.

In the meantime, we must protect those children from parents wo are zealots and we must protect our cities and our country from religious or political zealots, we can’t just throw up our hands or throw flowers at them any more than we can against the psychopaths, but not every zealot is a psychopath either.


Thanks for the comments skylar,
Yes, the last part about why people refuse to accept the truth is the most intriguing. I have always wondered why my sister who is married to a psychopathy refuses to see the truth about him. I liked the part when someone told Richared Gage: “I would not believe what you were telling me even if it were true.”!
Amazing! Is not it? (see frame 1:53)
This is exactly what I felt my sister was telling me every time I told her a fact about her husband. I could not make sense of her denial until l read about psychopaths.
It took a psychopath to excute such a perfect lie with total disregards to the damages done to the lives and feelings of all those who were affected.


To Ox Drover,
Hi Ox Drover,
Good comment but did you watch the documentary?
I got the feeling that you did not watch the video because your comment did not address what is in this new documentary..

Ox Drover


No I did not watch it, I have limited amount of Gigs on internet so can’t watch videos as it EATS up megabites….

My comment was not just about 9/11 attack, though, but about all zealot attacks and wars where it is “Us” against “them” which justifies taking actions (killing people) that soldiers must make, or even the sticking to your beliefs about veganism or medical care when your child dies as a result. Not ALL people who are zealots are psychopaths even if what they do as a result of their belief system results in someone else dying.



I watched the video about the buildings collapsing, being the result of a controlled demolition (according to various building experts). Boy, I never imagined that there could be more to the story – that the buildings could have been deliberately destroyed, not coming down due to planes flying into them. After watching the video, I have many questions – who was responsible for placing the bombs and WHY? Anyone who created so much carnage is absolutely evil, no conscience whatsoever.


you know when freedomfare posted that vid i thought things might go sideways on the blog – we often get into trouble around certain topics. I gotta say, i a muy impressed with us all. 🙂

I watched the vid. I have always thought that the buildings fell very oddly – not like anything i had seen before. And i know there is AWLAYS more than the ‘official’ story to anything that affects a country as deeply as this did. I do suspect there were bombs in the building and that the planes were for effect. I have no idea who set them, nor do i care to conjecture.

What i do know is that it has changed so much of how countries interact with one another. that scapegoats have been created and will continue to be created in all possible ways. it has changed the focus of world governments (smoke screen for what???) and the everyday fears and experience of many.

it’s always about who benefits. follow the benefit and find the players.


something very bad just happened in Canada. A fellow tried for half an hour to get someone to call the police as his friend had fallen in the river. people refused to call, refused to lend him their cell phone, etc. his friend was real, he died. i heard a short interview just now, with the woman who did call the police. my heart just broke. the man was a person without much means and unkempt. he was native. i can’t tell you how this feels. i am angry sad aghast. The people who refused to make a phone call should be charged as accessories in his friend’s death. this is disgusting. fucking racist classist shit.


i am going to write his friend and his friend’s family when i can find some contact info. this is so awful.

Ox Drover

Dear One/Joy,

I started to watch the link, thank you for posting it, but I couldn’t make myself watch it because I knew it would raise my blood pressure that people are this uncaring. Thanks for posting it for those of us who CAN watch it though.

I didn’t watch the documentary on the way the towers fell…I did think they fell sort of like those that are intentionally demolished (I love watching those intentionally demolished buildings come down) but at the same time, I also believe the planes COULD have very well brought them down without any other explosives being involved and I’m not going to go off on some tangent about conspiracy theories. I don’t have enough information or proof and no way to get any, to change my mind about how the buildings did come down.

So ALL I can say for sure is hijacked planes flew into them, and the buildings fell.

While the men who hijacked the planes have been identified as Zealot Muslim terrorists by out government, actually, I think that is probably true, but even being a zealot and willing to do some terrible things to our country doesn’t necessarily qualify them as psychopaths I don’t think. They are doing what they have been taught is RIGHT to people that they think DESERVE to die, so just as there can be psychopaths in the armed forces of any country, just being in the armed forces and willing to kill for your country and your cause, doesn’t necessarily make you a psychopath.


I agree re your last sentence oxy. I put this in the box with your stance on capital punishment. although we do have different opinions on that one, yours is more considered than mine.

i am still a bit in shock about the man who tried to get help for his friend. not shocked at the racism or the classism, but at the horror of it and the effect of the classism and racism on these two men, and other native folks. i know that i would be the person making the phone call. i don’t doubt that. but i also know i would be the person punching the noses of those who didn’t. i hope they feel like shit.


tomorrow i go for my intake appt at the abuse and trauma centre that grew out of our local sexual assault centre.

today i went for another infrared sauna, and yesterday was neurofeedback – and for 2 of these appts., i left work. taking care of my health. i have to get over this last mold exposure – coupled with the other body break down stuff this summer, i am flaming fatigued. i need my energy back. so i am working for it.


One Joy,
I read the article, it is upsetting! Such a shame that people are so uncaring.

I did not watch the vid of the towers collapsing. I’ve seen it a lot with husband’s stuff. Don’t want to watch it NO MO’

I’m glad you are taking care of yourself. I know you’ll be back on top in no time, by the sounds of it. 🙂

Ox Drover

Dear One/Joy,

I agree with you on that stance about being angry at those people who did NOT make a phone call to the police. THAT IS JUST TERRIBLE!

I actually dont’ know what your stance is about the death penalty. I have considered it from the time I was a kid actually, since I lived in a state where people were put to death on a fairly regular basis.

I remember when I was in the devastation stage after my son was arrested for murder that I didn’t know if he would be charged with a crime that might get the death penalty and I kept thinking “oh, how horrible if they were to put him to death.”

Now, actually, it would be a relief to me, but I have NO doubt about his guilt.

The recent release of the “West Memphis Three” from the prison in my state after 18 years (one of them off death row) for a crime it is pretty certain they did NOT commit, I have changed my mind about the death penalty. Texas also has released quite a few men and several from death row that were not only “not guilty” but were INNOCENT. O J Simpson and Casey Anthony are “not guilty” but they are NOT INNOCENT.

Just the thought of an innocent man or woman being put to death for a crime they did not commit bothers me a lot. I also know that prison is no cake walk, and I think if prison for LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE were used more often for repeat and violent offenders and some of the people who are not psychopaths were released to community service etc. we could decrease our number of inmates and the cost to keep them…as well as cut down on a VAST amount of crime on our streets.

Partly because of Patrick I HAVE given a great deal of thought and study to our penal system and how it works—or doesn’t work, as the case may be! I don’t claim to know ALL the answers, not really even all the questions, but I do know that what we have is NOT WORKING WELL…especially where psychopaths are concerned.

Ox Drover

ps One/Joy,

Glad you are taking care of YOU! Good job! You are continuing to sound sane, even with the illness and the mold/roomie thing, it didn’t drop you to the bottom of the insanity pit! So TOWANDA for you!!!! Keep on taking care of yourself.


Hi Oxy,
I wrote before, but I don’t think you saw it. Did you get the book “one hundred years of solitude” yet? My husband is reading it and finding it difficult.

I ordered the books that you and One Joy suggested, but it’s taking forever with the inter-library loans…weeks! I’m looking forward to reading the book you suggested by Sams. All of them had to be ordered…none on the shelf. It’s been at least two weeks…Guess I need to call them.


Hi Ana – how are you tonight?


Hi oxy – well, i live in the land of no death penalty.

As a young teen I (and my whole family) got caught in the middle of a gunfight between a criminal and the police in the middle of a 4 lane highway. I saw a police officer take a bullet up close and personal. Since that day i have felt that there needs to be some way to protect the police. And the threat of the death penalty can be a deterent. This fellow opened fire on the police. He was surrounded (trapped) and he just started shooting. okay, so now i know that a lot of cops are spathy. and i know that things are not so black and white.

i think your views are well considered. I see that we need a major overhaul of our justice system; locking certain people up and throwing away the key; treating others in a different way (ie community service, and giving them tools to be in society); and capital punishment for others.

i’d like to see DUI offenders get criminal sentences. I’d like to see pedophiles receive cap punishment. Same with rapists. And when we develop a reliable genetic test for criminal spaths – I’d like them to get life imprisonment regardless of the lack of severity of the crime, and death for any of the other crimes i have cited, save the DUI (although…it’s a damn weapon). If someone beats their spouse or children I want to see fast and hard criminal sentences.

I think a lot of drug time is a waste of time and a waste of money. Possession of personal use amounts should be legalized. and i want to see legislation that criminalizes love fraud.


Hi One Joy,
I’m good. Thanks for asking. I’ve ended my therapy after eight months. I don’t need to go back. I’ve learned that if I run into spath anywhere..I have the right to walk away.

I do NOT have to talk to this woman ever again. If I see her in public (which I was so worried about), I can just say, nope, ain’t going to happen, this conversation. Walk away.

So, I did get help from this therapist. When I listened to Donna’s radio interview I could feel some tension in my belly because they just never pay for their shit. They seem to go on and on and we are left cleaning up the emotional mess. I don’t know.

My emotions are upset cause my lil girl cat is sick, sneezing and watering eyes. Might be time for the vet soon. Oh, she know’s the word “vet” so we have to spell it in front of her…lol


i’d also like to see criminals held financially responsible for their victims: for their medical bills, for counseling, for other services that would allow these folks to re enter work, etc.


Ana – i used to have to spell s-n-a-k-e in front of my grey mister as he was not at all fond of the idea of our getting a s-n-a-k-e.

does she have allergies?

I used to get QUITE worked up about the ongoing nature of my spaths cons – she gets caught and still rolls forward. she gets publicly exposed and still rolls forward, she cons her best friends child, and still rolls forward – this is what makes me want to whack her. I can handle the damage she did to me, but she is still out there doing it, and she has been doing it for decades…and some of the people she conned decades ago still fear her. yup. death penalty all round for the spaths would make me happy. and quite literally i would be willing to live with the karma of doing it myself.


One Joy,
Oh, I don’t want to actually kill her. Just HARM her, that’s all. Why should she enter the spirit world, nah, I’m all for harming but not killing. I should not be, but I am looking her up on google to see where she really lives. Of course, it’s under an alias.

Every year in this state you have to reinstate your massage lisence…of course she hasn’t. those rules don’t apply to her I guess. It pisses me off because she does not follow any of the rules, yet still practices massage. UGH! You know that she only takes cash…lolol just had to add that in.

Ah, my lil girl cat. Yep, she’s got allergies all right. She won’t let me put a warm cloth on her runny eyes…and tonight she hid under the bed cause she thought I was gonna take her to the v-e-t- lol


awww, poor kitty.

can you report her anonymously? a little spath back? you can cause her a bit of trouble. she might have to leave the state. no more ‘happy endings’. (just had to add THAT. LOL)

Ex Umbris

The death penalty for them? Could we even do that? 🙁


Ex Umbris – i don’t quite understand what you mean.


sorry about your baby kitty. Is she an indoor or an outdoor kitty?

there is something semi-spathic about people who can turn away a person in dire distress. Sure, there is the possibility that it is a conman doing the pity ploy, but it’s so easy to deal with it since he was only asking for a 911 call!! I mean, even if it had been false, the caller could have reported the man for his harrassing behavior.

We had a spath cop kill a native american man point blank.
He was a wood carver so he was routinely seen walking around with his carving knife and a piece of wood. As he crossed the street, the cop turned on his blue lights and got out of the car and stopped him on the corner. He moved just out of range of his patrol car camera, the pulled out his weapon, yelled at the man to drop the knife and waited about 7 seconds before he shot him 4 TIMES. Autopsy shows he wasn’t even facing the cop.

If you listen to the cop after the killing, you can hear how calm he is. He felt nothing.

BTW, the cop got away with it. spaths always do.

Seattle cops kill and beat up people so much that the feds have sent in an investigator. It will be a spath investigator and he’ll just say everything is fine.


Sky – i know about John Williams – it is so similar a killing. Based in racism, classism and ignorance.

we can only make sure we don’t lose our compassion.


as to your question about who would do that and why: a spath would and they would do it for the drama, the control, the money. (there is interesting information out there about the lease and the insurance that was purchased, just prior to 9/11.)

But mostly for the drama. In the end, they got what they wanted: the sheeple are more scared than ever, they started a war, we allow them to fondle us at the airport (there always has to be a sex angle with the spaths) and the economy is in shambles. All this happened right after we climbed up on that pedestal, during the 90’s economic bubble. But of course, so we would have further to fall.

Ox Drover

Ana, nah, haven’t gotten the book ordered yet, flat forgot it but will get that done here shortly.

It is just easier to order them off amazon dot com for me and have them (used) sent to my house since it costs $10 or more in gas to drive to town and back to the library. This way I can read at my leisure as well. I share them with friends when I am done unless I keep one to reread. Thanks for reminding me.

Ex Umbris

one/joy – Idk. I’m sorry, forget I said anything.


Hi everyone,
I did not post the link because it was irrlevant. I posted it because it is too relevant. Let me ask you this: “Why is not psychopathy recognized as an illness?” Because it is considered not only normal but also the mark of the smart, ruthless, successful business and political people.
If psychopaths are attracted to power, control, and the manipulation of others, where do you think most of them will end up? Either in wall street or in the capitol!
As I said earlier, I have a sister who is married to a psychopath and I only learned that psyhopaths exist after a lot of painful experiences, reading, and soul searching. But I have learned also that the issue of psychopathy is more than just a few mad peopele screwing up the life of a few innocent people. It is more than this. It could be a whole culture that is built around the notion that as long as you get what you want, you are fine regardless of what you do. This is why we live in a culture that refuses to recognize or address the issue of psychopathy. What is the use of trying to expose and fight the small psychopaths when we refuse to acknowledge the existence of the big ones?


This is why I’m here on LF learning about spaths.
Sure I had an uber spath and my family of spaths, so it’s very helpful to learn about them.
It would be great to prevent the uber spath and my spath family from hurting more people, but what does that matter when the spaths are running the world? It is in learning about the small spaths that we can see the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR on the larger stage. The spaths need drama, they have cycles, they need sacrificial victims. They call them INFANTry, but King Herod didn’t bother with that, he just called for all boys under age 2 to be killed. It’s been going on for eternity and we have to wake up to it.

Freedom, I hope you read “Sacrifice and the Sacred” by Rene Girard. You may find it informative.

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