Nolongernaive, I agree and my actual thought on it is that a “narcissistic PD” person is just a LOWER LEVEL PSYCHOPATH, it is just the first sign of the aggrandizement of self that makes other people NOT VALUABLE compared to the “self”—therefore it is okay to abuse them.
If you put The “psychopathic PD” on a scale of 1-10, the first “sign” I think would be that narcissistic/selfish person at “number 1” (the guy who eats the last piece of cake knowing you haven’t had any) on up to the Charlie Manson/Ted Bundy/Bernie Madoff at 10, who enjoys making others suffer.
Kathleen Hawk
14 years ago
tobehappy, I loved your post, and I really related to what you’re saying.
After I finally got the last sociopath out of my life (or thought I did, I actually identified a few more later), I realized that it was just going to be more of the same in the future. Or maybe worse because I was so broken down emotionally that I figured I was going to attract a bottom feeder who would just mop up what was left and finish me off. And I decided to figure out what was wrong with me — particularly what was wrong that I could imagine I loved this monster and continued to be involved with him for five years — AND FIX IT!
That decision turned out to be the greatest gift I ever gave myself. And the beginning of the first time in my life that I ever really made myself the priority.
Which was kind of surprising, because I was always trying to fix things in my life and trying to make the right decisions and trying to achieve something, despite being plagued with some psychological issues like depression and anxiety. But the reality was that I was always “about” other people. Whether it was trying to protect their feelings. Or investing in their lives in hopes that they would turn out to be the people I hoped they were. Or trading babying other people through their issues in return for them protecting and comforting me. Or being generous with them in hopes that they would see how that worked and be generous with me. My whole rule system was about all the ways I had to sell myself off in order to be accepted or even loved a little bit.
The really horrible and destructive relationship with the sociopath was, I realized as I discovered that I had not the faintest idea of how to counter his ability to live outside rules that I lived by, just a bigger and worse example of the way I’d lived my whole life. I was inviting abuse and exploitation. And I finally found a guy who was an expert at using both to further goals that had nothing to do with me.
You’ll love this. You know what he said to me while he was still in the seduction phase? That I was the most feminine woman he’d ever met. I was born in 1948. He was born in 1968. I thought it was about that, my socialization in the days of cinch belts, girdles and women who stayed in the kitchen. Woman who made an art form out of encouraging men in the belief that they were the masters of the universe, while the little lady kept his world running in the background.
And that was true, sort of. He wanted a woman who could be intimidated at the same time she was convinced that he needed her. A woman’s whose heart could be broken by thoughtless betrayals but who would stand by her man when he showed up with flowers and apologies. A woman who could be convinced that her future happiness depended on keeping him happy and helping him work out all his issues on her and her life. A woman who wanted to be needed.
My sister (who comes from the same family background and has her version of the same issues with men) once asked me, “Why do I keep getting involved with men who have Mommy issues?” It took years before I realized that it was becuase we were volunteering to be Mommy. And free therapist. And emotional voodoo doll. And neven-closing spigot of whatever kind of support they decided they needed next. Not even really thinking about checking out until so much damage had been done to our self-esteem and our careers and our bank accounts that we virtually had to start over every time we got rid of one of them. And start over only when after we’d spent an ungodly amount of time licking our wounds and trying to get back on our feet.
Well, I’m ranting here. And all I really meant to say was welcome to the wonderful path toward the exit from serial victimhood. I wrote a series of essays here on LoveFraud called “After the Sociopath, How Do We Heal?” They’re written from the assumption that we probably have earlier issues that made us vulnerable to these people. You might take a look at the first three or four to validate what you’re going through. (My name is on the list of authors in the skinny column at the left of the page.)
Warm best wishes and I look forward to reading more of your posts —
Kathy
tobehappy
14 years ago
Oxy…(I saw a license plate that said “Oxy” going thru the Lincoln Tunnel last night! lol…thought of you.)
It really isn’t about THEM anymore for me. I KNOW what they are….DISORDERED…whether Sociopath, Borderline, Bipolar, etc…..
Its about ME now. I built myself up in the past three years during each break up, but obviously not enough to stop allowwing myself to go back for more abuse.
THIS IS IT now. Enough is enough. I am FREE now. Now its up to me to change.
nolongernaive
14 years ago
Kathleen, I love the part of your post about exiting serial victimhood. That is what I did finally and it feels liberating and exhilarating at the same time. Working on my self esteem is THE key. I may be overweight right now but I am so lucky for a lot of other reasons. I can always lose it and I’m working on it, but the ex socio will always be a toxic,evil, loser-and I am peaceful and content for the first time in years. I want everyone on lovefraud to feel this good! 🙂 🙂
Ox Drover
14 years ago
Dear Kathy,
I love it!!!! Great post above! There have been some profoundly healing articles and posts here lately. The one I did on 1001 Things I did wrong is so true too, and I bet we both could list at least 999 of the SAME things we did wrong. Thanks for listing some of them out! (((Hugs)))) I’m SO glad you are back posting the last few days, dang I miss you when you are gone!
Kathleen Hawk
14 years ago
nolongernaive, you know you’re going to called on this overweight thing.
Overweight says who? You are the perfect weight for what you’ve beening doing. Learning to understand and protect your boundaries. Weight is insulation against the cold and upholstery against the sharp corners of life. It’s a personal pantry to keep us going when times get tough. It’s a way to get more grounded and demand more space when we need time to process. And it’s evidence the you’ve been self-comforting which is a good thing.
You are a beautiful example of a person who’s been healing. The weight serves a lot of purposes. And you might consider loving it for all those reasons, rather than using it as something to dislike about yourself.
I read some wonderful things recently about how we are not our bodies, but our bodies are the vehicles we are given to support and surround and nurture our spirits. Your body has been helping you through this transition. And though it might not seem like the best thing (until you think about it), it is also a message to the outside world that you are not volunteering to serve anyone else’s fantasies, you want to be loved for who you are. Anyone who criticizes you for it is showing their own prejudices and the limitations of their ability to support you as a real person, not a Barbie doll. And it’s nice to know about these things before you get further involved with them.
When you’re interested in more active engagement with life, you’ll get more active. You won’t have to beat yourself up about anything. It will just happen.
Meanwhile take your clothes off and get in front of a mirror and think about how Rubens would just drool over you. And he was a gorgeous man, cultured, hardworking, wildly successful and with two great marriages (his first wife died). Don’t be intimidated by the “rules” of the fashion industry. There are lots of versions of beauty and there is nothing more magnetically appealing than the self-confident glow that comes from liking yourself exactly as you are.
Sending the kind of big hug that wouldn’t be nearly as much fun if you were skinny —
Kathy
tobehappy
14 years ago
THANK YOU, Kathleen…HUGS
Last year when I went through the paralyzing shock that he was being unfaithful, and I unraveled the confusion, and started to heal and move on…I went back to the insanity.
The second time I went back, due to the difficulty I had breaking the “bond” with him…(betrayal bond), I had a song, by Leona Lewis “Happy”….(which is where I got my name here! lol)…and now my song is by Beyonce “LISTEN”…
It says it all ..where I’m at right now. I AM moving on now. I don’t know how to…but I know what I CANNOT do…what will set me back.
I am taking care of me…again…more and more. Listening to music to give me strength…eating right…talking to my sister who totally understands….spending time decorating with my girls…and reading posts on here.
Last year, I not only read your posts on “healing” …I took notes and read them over and over.
I came a long way, and now my journey to find peace and inner strength and self love continues.
Thank God for you and others on here..the support is priceless!
nolongernaive
14 years ago
Kathleen-thanks. I do think that the fat was insulating from hurt. I realized something though when talking to a friend. We were talking about this married socio guy that we work with who admitted to me that he cheats on his wife. He has taken to falling over himself trying to help me out and do favors for me since I am a single chick. My friend said that he is trying to wear you down and get you into an affair-like the others in his life. I always thought, no-I’m 110lbs overweight and he is super physically fit, so he’s not interested in me. That’s when I realized that these guys will screw anyone and they use your low self esteem against you. I was the other woman with my ex and he was able to pull the con because he used my low self esteem against me. He flattered me so much about me being the most thing he’d ever seen. I am SO ashamed that he pulled me in that way and it won’t happen again.
I told Oxy in an earlier post that I had a beer with him one night after work. Another co worker was supposed to be there and cancelled. I still went because I wanted to know if he really was what I thought he was. That’s when he admitted to all the cheating on his wife. I don’t know why he had the nerve to think that I would think that all that is OK. Anyway, he texted last night-on Saturday, when he is home with his family-totally inappropriate. Needless to say, I didn’t answer it.
I see your point in what you’re saying. The only thing is that since I am 110-120lbs, it is holding me back from the career that I want and it is also putting my health at risk. I am a nurse and I know that it puts me at risk for cancer and diabetes. I also have a back injury from moving a 400lb patient and my job requires me to wear a lead apron all day that adds almost 20lbs to my weight. My joints and feet hurt so bad from the pressure. I also have to get clothes in the fat girl section now and that’s really hard. I also have to pay more for health insurance since I’m overweight. I appreciate that I was comforting myself and insulating myself from abuse but I am trying to become a cop as soon as I get fit and pay off my bills and wearing a size 42I bra is not at all conducive to wearing a bulletproof vest. I feel almost completely healed now and I want my self esteem back. I don’t need the fat anymore.
Ox Drover
14 years ago
Dear nolongernaive, I laughed at the “size 42 I” bra, LOL I can relate to that for sure! I’m “only” 60 pounds over weight, well actually now 39, but I finally GOT SERIOUS about my weight gain and about the high blood sugars and high blood pressure when my feet started to swell. Don’t know if you read what my cute and SLIM internist told me though, she said “Well, do you think it might be your sodium?” I said “Nah, COULDN’T be the high sodium, I’ve eaten salt out of the shaker since I was a kid!” She said “WELL, YOU’VE NEVER BEEN THIS OLD BEFORE!” LOL
Don’t you hate it when they are RIGHT!? I wanted to gobsmack her off the stool–but she was right, of course! I got on the American Heart Association web site and looked at the lower sodium recommendations and I’m having to relearn how to cook and eat, and calculate sodium, but with a HEALTHY calorie restricted diet (1200-1600 calories) and sodium intake of 1500 mg or less, I am losing weight, feeling better, normalized blood sugars, and blood pressure without any medication.
I am taking care of MYSELF NOW! It wasn’t like I didn’t KNOW what I should have done, but I was in denial about THAT PROBLEM while I was dealing with the other ones. It is easier to take care of 1-2 problems at a time, and when you have a bunch of them to address you can’t focus all your energy on every one at ONCE. So I think you are doing well to get to where you are now, so when you are ready, you can focus on the weight issue and I know you will and will succeed in doing it.
I quit smoking (one thing I focused on until I got it done) now the weight and sodium and that is becoming a LIFE STYLE CHANGE not just a “diet!” I’m starting to feel some renewed self confidence and pride in accomplishing taking care of me!
nolongernaive
14 years ago
Oxy-I get how you feel on that. I love what your doc said. Now that the relationship part is resolved, it will be easier to lose weight. My stress levels are way down and I’m starting to sleep better. The doc put me on appetite suppressant pill for awhile but I felt crappy on it and I quit and I didn’t really lose weight because I didn’t want to eat at all, yet I was feeling so hypoglycemic all the time. My ankles are swelling too. I’m not getting enough water in. I’m going back to the doc after Christmas to get a thyroid panel cuz I am symptomatic of hypothyroid. After Christmas I’m starting the exercise weight program that I bought last January and couldn’t use. I was making too much noise in my second floor apartment and it was bothering people. I am also walking in the 10K for the police department fundraiser on the 18th. Two years ago, before the spath, I ran most of it. On 4/1/08 I also quit smoking and ballooned up in the weight and just got bigger and bigger. Part of it was depression right after the breakup. Since my emotions feel great now, I am excited to start working on my fitness. I don’t thing about is so much as weight/diet but I can’t run after bad guys when I’m like this and I need to get of the boobs. Congrats on quitting smoking too. I quit for the spath and it was the only good thing that came out of the relationship!
2BHappy, Your post is PROFOUND WISDOM–TOWANDA!!!
Nolongernaive, I agree and my actual thought on it is that a “narcissistic PD” person is just a LOWER LEVEL PSYCHOPATH, it is just the first sign of the aggrandizement of self that makes other people NOT VALUABLE compared to the “self”—therefore it is okay to abuse them.
If you put The “psychopathic PD” on a scale of 1-10, the first “sign” I think would be that narcissistic/selfish person at “number 1” (the guy who eats the last piece of cake knowing you haven’t had any) on up to the Charlie Manson/Ted Bundy/Bernie Madoff at 10, who enjoys making others suffer.
tobehappy, I loved your post, and I really related to what you’re saying.
After I finally got the last sociopath out of my life (or thought I did, I actually identified a few more later), I realized that it was just going to be more of the same in the future. Or maybe worse because I was so broken down emotionally that I figured I was going to attract a bottom feeder who would just mop up what was left and finish me off. And I decided to figure out what was wrong with me — particularly what was wrong that I could imagine I loved this monster and continued to be involved with him for five years — AND FIX IT!
That decision turned out to be the greatest gift I ever gave myself. And the beginning of the first time in my life that I ever really made myself the priority.
Which was kind of surprising, because I was always trying to fix things in my life and trying to make the right decisions and trying to achieve something, despite being plagued with some psychological issues like depression and anxiety. But the reality was that I was always “about” other people. Whether it was trying to protect their feelings. Or investing in their lives in hopes that they would turn out to be the people I hoped they were. Or trading babying other people through their issues in return for them protecting and comforting me. Or being generous with them in hopes that they would see how that worked and be generous with me. My whole rule system was about all the ways I had to sell myself off in order to be accepted or even loved a little bit.
The really horrible and destructive relationship with the sociopath was, I realized as I discovered that I had not the faintest idea of how to counter his ability to live outside rules that I lived by, just a bigger and worse example of the way I’d lived my whole life. I was inviting abuse and exploitation. And I finally found a guy who was an expert at using both to further goals that had nothing to do with me.
You’ll love this. You know what he said to me while he was still in the seduction phase? That I was the most feminine woman he’d ever met. I was born in 1948. He was born in 1968. I thought it was about that, my socialization in the days of cinch belts, girdles and women who stayed in the kitchen. Woman who made an art form out of encouraging men in the belief that they were the masters of the universe, while the little lady kept his world running in the background.
And that was true, sort of. He wanted a woman who could be intimidated at the same time she was convinced that he needed her. A woman’s whose heart could be broken by thoughtless betrayals but who would stand by her man when he showed up with flowers and apologies. A woman who could be convinced that her future happiness depended on keeping him happy and helping him work out all his issues on her and her life. A woman who wanted to be needed.
My sister (who comes from the same family background and has her version of the same issues with men) once asked me, “Why do I keep getting involved with men who have Mommy issues?” It took years before I realized that it was becuase we were volunteering to be Mommy. And free therapist. And emotional voodoo doll. And neven-closing spigot of whatever kind of support they decided they needed next. Not even really thinking about checking out until so much damage had been done to our self-esteem and our careers and our bank accounts that we virtually had to start over every time we got rid of one of them. And start over only when after we’d spent an ungodly amount of time licking our wounds and trying to get back on our feet.
Well, I’m ranting here. And all I really meant to say was welcome to the wonderful path toward the exit from serial victimhood. I wrote a series of essays here on LoveFraud called “After the Sociopath, How Do We Heal?” They’re written from the assumption that we probably have earlier issues that made us vulnerable to these people. You might take a look at the first three or four to validate what you’re going through. (My name is on the list of authors in the skinny column at the left of the page.)
Warm best wishes and I look forward to reading more of your posts —
Kathy
Oxy…(I saw a license plate that said “Oxy” going thru the Lincoln Tunnel last night! lol…thought of you.)
It really isn’t about THEM anymore for me. I KNOW what they are….DISORDERED…whether Sociopath, Borderline, Bipolar, etc…..
Its about ME now. I built myself up in the past three years during each break up, but obviously not enough to stop allowwing myself to go back for more abuse.
THIS IS IT now. Enough is enough. I am FREE now. Now its up to me to change.
Kathleen, I love the part of your post about exiting serial victimhood. That is what I did finally and it feels liberating and exhilarating at the same time. Working on my self esteem is THE key. I may be overweight right now but I am so lucky for a lot of other reasons. I can always lose it and I’m working on it, but the ex socio will always be a toxic,evil, loser-and I am peaceful and content for the first time in years. I want everyone on lovefraud to feel this good! 🙂 🙂
Dear Kathy,
I love it!!!! Great post above! There have been some profoundly healing articles and posts here lately. The one I did on 1001 Things I did wrong is so true too, and I bet we both could list at least 999 of the SAME things we did wrong. Thanks for listing some of them out! (((Hugs)))) I’m SO glad you are back posting the last few days, dang I miss you when you are gone!
nolongernaive, you know you’re going to called on this overweight thing.
Overweight says who? You are the perfect weight for what you’ve beening doing. Learning to understand and protect your boundaries. Weight is insulation against the cold and upholstery against the sharp corners of life. It’s a personal pantry to keep us going when times get tough. It’s a way to get more grounded and demand more space when we need time to process. And it’s evidence the you’ve been self-comforting which is a good thing.
You are a beautiful example of a person who’s been healing. The weight serves a lot of purposes. And you might consider loving it for all those reasons, rather than using it as something to dislike about yourself.
I read some wonderful things recently about how we are not our bodies, but our bodies are the vehicles we are given to support and surround and nurture our spirits. Your body has been helping you through this transition. And though it might not seem like the best thing (until you think about it), it is also a message to the outside world that you are not volunteering to serve anyone else’s fantasies, you want to be loved for who you are. Anyone who criticizes you for it is showing their own prejudices and the limitations of their ability to support you as a real person, not a Barbie doll. And it’s nice to know about these things before you get further involved with them.
When you’re interested in more active engagement with life, you’ll get more active. You won’t have to beat yourself up about anything. It will just happen.
Meanwhile take your clothes off and get in front of a mirror and think about how Rubens would just drool over you. And he was a gorgeous man, cultured, hardworking, wildly successful and with two great marriages (his first wife died). Don’t be intimidated by the “rules” of the fashion industry. There are lots of versions of beauty and there is nothing more magnetically appealing than the self-confident glow that comes from liking yourself exactly as you are.
Sending the kind of big hug that wouldn’t be nearly as much fun if you were skinny —
Kathy
THANK YOU, Kathleen…HUGS
Last year when I went through the paralyzing shock that he was being unfaithful, and I unraveled the confusion, and started to heal and move on…I went back to the insanity.
The second time I went back, due to the difficulty I had breaking the “bond” with him…(betrayal bond), I had a song, by Leona Lewis “Happy”….(which is where I got my name here! lol)…and now my song is by Beyonce “LISTEN”…
It says it all ..where I’m at right now. I AM moving on now. I don’t know how to…but I know what I CANNOT do…what will set me back.
I am taking care of me…again…more and more. Listening to music to give me strength…eating right…talking to my sister who totally understands….spending time decorating with my girls…and reading posts on here.
Last year, I not only read your posts on “healing” …I took notes and read them over and over.
I came a long way, and now my journey to find peace and inner strength and self love continues.
Thank God for you and others on here..the support is priceless!
Kathleen-thanks. I do think that the fat was insulating from hurt. I realized something though when talking to a friend. We were talking about this married socio guy that we work with who admitted to me that he cheats on his wife. He has taken to falling over himself trying to help me out and do favors for me since I am a single chick. My friend said that he is trying to wear you down and get you into an affair-like the others in his life. I always thought, no-I’m 110lbs overweight and he is super physically fit, so he’s not interested in me. That’s when I realized that these guys will screw anyone and they use your low self esteem against you. I was the other woman with my ex and he was able to pull the con because he used my low self esteem against me. He flattered me so much about me being the most thing he’d ever seen. I am SO ashamed that he pulled me in that way and it won’t happen again.
I told Oxy in an earlier post that I had a beer with him one night after work. Another co worker was supposed to be there and cancelled. I still went because I wanted to know if he really was what I thought he was. That’s when he admitted to all the cheating on his wife. I don’t know why he had the nerve to think that I would think that all that is OK. Anyway, he texted last night-on Saturday, when he is home with his family-totally inappropriate. Needless to say, I didn’t answer it.
I see your point in what you’re saying. The only thing is that since I am 110-120lbs, it is holding me back from the career that I want and it is also putting my health at risk. I am a nurse and I know that it puts me at risk for cancer and diabetes. I also have a back injury from moving a 400lb patient and my job requires me to wear a lead apron all day that adds almost 20lbs to my weight. My joints and feet hurt so bad from the pressure. I also have to get clothes in the fat girl section now and that’s really hard. I also have to pay more for health insurance since I’m overweight. I appreciate that I was comforting myself and insulating myself from abuse but I am trying to become a cop as soon as I get fit and pay off my bills and wearing a size 42I bra is not at all conducive to wearing a bulletproof vest. I feel almost completely healed now and I want my self esteem back. I don’t need the fat anymore.
Dear nolongernaive, I laughed at the “size 42 I” bra, LOL I can relate to that for sure! I’m “only” 60 pounds over weight, well actually now 39, but I finally GOT SERIOUS about my weight gain and about the high blood sugars and high blood pressure when my feet started to swell. Don’t know if you read what my cute and SLIM internist told me though, she said “Well, do you think it might be your sodium?” I said “Nah, COULDN’T be the high sodium, I’ve eaten salt out of the shaker since I was a kid!” She said “WELL, YOU’VE NEVER BEEN THIS OLD BEFORE!” LOL
Don’t you hate it when they are RIGHT!? I wanted to gobsmack her off the stool–but she was right, of course! I got on the American Heart Association web site and looked at the lower sodium recommendations and I’m having to relearn how to cook and eat, and calculate sodium, but with a HEALTHY calorie restricted diet (1200-1600 calories) and sodium intake of 1500 mg or less, I am losing weight, feeling better, normalized blood sugars, and blood pressure without any medication.
I am taking care of MYSELF NOW! It wasn’t like I didn’t KNOW what I should have done, but I was in denial about THAT PROBLEM while I was dealing with the other ones. It is easier to take care of 1-2 problems at a time, and when you have a bunch of them to address you can’t focus all your energy on every one at ONCE. So I think you are doing well to get to where you are now, so when you are ready, you can focus on the weight issue and I know you will and will succeed in doing it.
I quit smoking (one thing I focused on until I got it done) now the weight and sodium and that is becoming a LIFE STYLE CHANGE not just a “diet!” I’m starting to feel some renewed self confidence and pride in accomplishing taking care of me!
Oxy-I get how you feel on that. I love what your doc said. Now that the relationship part is resolved, it will be easier to lose weight. My stress levels are way down and I’m starting to sleep better. The doc put me on appetite suppressant pill for awhile but I felt crappy on it and I quit and I didn’t really lose weight because I didn’t want to eat at all, yet I was feeling so hypoglycemic all the time. My ankles are swelling too. I’m not getting enough water in. I’m going back to the doc after Christmas to get a thyroid panel cuz I am symptomatic of hypothyroid. After Christmas I’m starting the exercise weight program that I bought last January and couldn’t use. I was making too much noise in my second floor apartment and it was bothering people. I am also walking in the 10K for the police department fundraiser on the 18th. Two years ago, before the spath, I ran most of it. On 4/1/08 I also quit smoking and ballooned up in the weight and just got bigger and bigger. Part of it was depression right after the breakup. Since my emotions feel great now, I am excited to start working on my fitness. I don’t thing about is so much as weight/diet but I can’t run after bad guys when I’m like this and I need to get of the boobs. Congrats on quitting smoking too. I quit for the spath and it was the only good thing that came out of the relationship!