An article in last week’s New York Times magazine contained the following amazing statement: “Repeating a claim, even if only to refute it, increases its apparent truthfulness.”
Although the article had nothing to do with sociopaths, the statement made me think of my ex-husband, James Montgomery. Among his many lies, Montgomery claimed to be a member of the Australian military, a decorated Vietnam War hero, and a member of the Special Forces. None of this was true, but from what I can tell, he’d been making the claims since at least 1980 (we met in 1996). They’d been repeated many times, for many years—which apparently enhanced their believability.
Like most of us here on Lovefraud, I felt like a complete fool for being so totally deceived. Why couldn’t I see the lies? But it turns out that I have plenty of company. Psychological research indicates that in general, people can distinguish truths from lies only about 53 percent of the time. That’s not much better than flipping a coin.
No signs of lying
Some people believe that there are physiological signals that someone is lying—for example, extraneous hand gestures or averting eye contact.
In one study, scientists asked more than 2,000 people from all over the world, “How can you tell when people are lying?” The number one answer was the same: “Liars avert their gaze.”
This may be true for some people, but it is not true all the time, and probably not true at all with sociopaths. Here at Lovefraud, we all have stories of the predator gazing into our eyes while he or she lied through his teeth.
Some researchers believe that liars tend to move their arms, hands and fingers less, blink less, and have more tension in their voices. Still, these behaviors are not consistent—some people who lie display them, and others don’t.
The point is, in hundreds of studies, researchers have found no reliable signal that indicates when someone is lying.
I don’t know, but I assume that the studies were done on general populations, and not populations of sociopaths. If we can’t detect lying in normal people, what chance do we have with sociopaths?
Truth About Deception
The situation gets even worse in romantic relationships. The reason, quite simply, is that we want to believe and trust our romantic partners.
“As people become more intimate and more emotionally involved they also become less accurate at detecting their partner’s deception,” states the website Truth About Deception. “People are too willing to give their romantic partners the benefit of the doubt.”
The Truth about Deception website is dedicated to explaining lies in romantic relationships, and the information presented is scary. For example, it states, “Most people think they are really good at telling when their partner is lying, but research shows that thinking you are good at detecting deception does not make it so.”
This creates, according to the website, a dangerous situation:
- As intimacy increases:
- People’s confidence at detecting deception increases
- People’s actual ability to detect deception declines
- Partners have more reason to lie
The website suggests that the only real way of determining if a romantic partner is lying is through some type of monitoring or surveillance.
Awareness, intuition, evaluation
So what’s the answer? How do we know when someone is lying?
The first step is to realize that people do, in fact, lie. That’s how honest, trustworthy people get into trouble—we don’t lie, so we don’t expect people to lie to us. This is a dangerous blind spot.
Our initial clue that someone is lying will probably come from our intuition. If we get that hit, that inkling, that the truth is not being told, we need to pay attention.
Then, we need to critically evaluate what is being said, along with evidence that proves or disproves the statements. When facts are irrefutable, we should believe the facts, and not the pleas of the liar.
eyeswideshut, I just read what flugenblar wrote about your radar detector story. They have not experienced what we have or they would “get it”. I understand completely. I have a teenage son and I would feel the same way about it. He put your son at risk and discounted your wishes behind your back. Not only was he teaching your son to speed if he could get away with it, but to LIE to his MOTHER. I’m sure you have other examples, but one thing I’ve found is I have a hard time coming up with specific ones to explain everything to someone. It’s a feeling that I had or a look that he had in his eyes. Sometimes I’ll remember something that I had forgotten about or dismissed at the time because he had turned it around on me. One isolated incident and a sincere apology is not what I or I’m sure you are not talking about. It’s many things over time. In my case 18 1/2 years. It’s the intent to do harm.
The article that helped me the most was on ambient abuse. I printed a copy of it and gave it to my counselor last week. She loved it. She told me this week she gave it to one of her other clients to read.
Some of the things in it sound like a lifetime movie and at first I’m thinking, well, he didn’t do that. A couple minutes of thinking about it and yes he did. One example is we moved 1500 miles away (he lied to make it happen) from all of my family and friends (not many left I was close to as he did not like them) and moved in with his mother and step father. At first they were very nice to me and our son. His mother even had helped talk me in to moving. But then my father died and we all went home for the funeral. My son and I ended up staying with my mom for a month because she was having major surgery. Bad Ex Husband had to be back to work, but quit his job- for a sure thing that he didn’t get-not long after he went back. When my son and I returned to ** things were completely different. My MIL was nasty to me and her grandson. Her husband would just look at me sometimes when I would say hello to him. I asked BEH what happened, “did I do something?”. He would say “No, you didn’t do anything. It’s not you. You know what my mother’s like, she’s crazy.” I had no car to get out of the house. I had no friends or family around. I had only BEH to “count on”. I know now he was laying the ground work for leaving. I found out that while he was down there for job interviews before we moved he was talking about me. setting things up. He also told the neighbors when we moved into our own place that they wouldn’t be seeing much of me because I didn’t come out of the house much. (when we moved in it was in the 90’s and humid and I was unpacking the whole house myself and home schooling our son so that played right into his hands) I found out all of this because I had become friends with wives of his “friends”. When he found out , he told me they were sluts and I needed to be aware of who I was talking to. He said it in the most concerned voice, not yelling. So glad he’s gone.
A couple of months ago he told my son he was in the hospital for a day. I thought he was using it for sympathy. Which he was, but there is still no health ins. claim for it. Surprise the whole thing was fabricated.
Here’s the link. It might have been on her before. I Know other subjects from him have been.
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse10.html
In one of the essays on lying that I read, Romeo’s Blood I think. In discussing lies and how we think we can detect a lie, but that we really only have a 50-50 or thereabouts chance to do so.
In some ways, that is probably true, but in others, especially in a long term relationship, there are more opportunities to see things that help to “expose” the lie. Not just at the TIME of the lie, but things like phone bills, other people letting the cat out of the bag, etc. Someone changing the way they act in subtle ways that indicate that “something” is up.
I think it takes a really devious and sharp person to keep up too many lies in the air at one time and not let one of them bounce.
When I was dating my X-BF who was a P, he was really angry at someone, he said a cousin of his who had wronged his father, tried to scam some money out of his father, and the BF was trying to think of a way to get revenge on this person.
I would talk to him about how revenge hurt YOU more than it did the other person, and was morally wrong, and ya da ya da. He wouldn’t say anything about this again for a week or two and then I would notice that he seemed “down” or upset and ask him and then he would talk about this “cousin” who had wronged his father—but this time the “reason” was different. He obviously forgot what “reason” he gave me the first time. I NOTICED IT but didn’t comment, but the third time he did this I REALLY NOTICED IT. He mentioned that he wished he could burn the guy’s house for what he did, and then even described how he would do it (he was an electrician).
It wasn’t long before his X-girlfriend’s house burned, just as he had described his “cousin’s” house burning. When I told him about it (we have mutual friends and I found out before he did–supposedly) his reaction was “good enough for the bitch”—and I noticed he wasn’t “surprised” or didnt give a surprised appearance—plus, he had been in her town that day. There were other things besides that which pointed to the fact that it was most likely HE had burned her house.
I picked up on the lies, but didn’t really think he was doing much but shooting off his mouth in anger at someone. I have done the same thing, and many people I know have–and it just didn’t register HIGH ENOUGH for me to really think much about it until her house burned. That was close to the time I broke up with him anyway, and afterwards she and I talked. She was also convinced that he had done it because he had threatened her not long before, and said “I’ll turn your world upside down.” He did that by burning her house, which he knew she loved, and she lost all her grandmother’s antiques, a unique and historical house that she had remodeled and restored, and almost all her personal possessions, all because she would not take him back.
After I kicked him to the curb, I had no doubt that he would seek revenge against me as well…and I warned him that he would not go scot free if he did. I think I convinced him that I was “crazy” enough that I would reciprocate any revenge he did to me and I specifically told him that if my house was struck by lightening and burned and I saw the strike hit it, I would still blame him. He did take some minor emotional revenge on me, but nothing like burning my house.
Since his x girl friend and he and I shared a great number of mutual friends and acquaintances and they realize how he has treated us both, he has lost a great deal of “face” among people that he wanted to appear “mr. nice guy” to–and she and I are not the only ones who believe he burned her house.
That is one reason I am so touchy now about ANY lie, whether it is just a fabrication of something to make someone appear a “bigger person” or “smarter” or whatever the lie is about, if a person is a LIAR, a confabulator, or a deceptive person in any way, or vengeful, then I do not want anything to do with them. I will not trust them. It isn’t worth the chance.
OxDrover:
Your revelation about the burning houses gave me the chills. Brrr it’s cold in here…(and not the fleeting snow outside).
My X-S threatened to burn down his former best friend’s house (a beautiful historic mansion) but this has not happened. I wonder….how long do you think S’s hold a grudge…? He’s very smart, if he was going to do it, he’d wait…
Peggy, it was over a year from the time my Ps X-GF gave him N-injury, and he held the grudge a long time. After their break up he would go to visit her and her then current BF. He had this “thing” about still being “friends” with past GFs. He even went to tell her how “sorry he was” that her house burned, but he was just gloating.
He didn’t do me much damage, except emotionally, but he called me in the middle of the night (I was asleep) to GLOAT about what he had done. I hung up as soon as I heard his voice and recognized it. I’m a heavy sleeper and probably listened for 30 seconds or so before I hung up.
The propensity to revenge I think varies greatly from P to P but I think they all have it to one degree or another. My own P son is still ENRAGED at me for turning hm in to the cops when he was 17 and I caught him with stolen merchandise.
In retrospect, I should have NC’d him then.
Sometimes people (even normal people) feel a wish for retribution or revenge because they can’t get justice, but I think normal people control these impulses to do evil because they know it is WRONG. That is where the P differs totally I think.
Believe me I have had some nasty thoughts about what I would “like to do” to some of the Ps, but I didn’t dwell on these feelings/thoughts and actively pushed those ugly thoughts out of my head and heart–Ps don’t do that. Also, thoughts of revenge have been shown to “light up” the pleasure centers of the brain. So people who seek or even think about revenge get a “high” off this thought and/or action which further enforces it, I think, in the P who gets pleasure out of hurting others anyway. Just my theory though.
Many times a victim who seeks justice enrages some Ps to the point that they are “provoked” to revenge (in their own minds) at least. I think my P-son is easily “provoked” to violence and justifies seeking “revenge” as a punishment too the person who thwarts his designs or seeks in any way to control his behavior. I made the mistake of letting him know that I had done so—and that is when he came after me.
Sometimes it is better to I think, and safer, to fore go justice if you can, or at least keep it secret if you can so that they do not seek revenge for the “injury” you have done them by causing them to be justly punished (unjustly of course in their minds)
I think the only reason my house didn’t burn was that I confronted the P X-BF, telling him I knew he burned the other house and that I would RETALIATE against him by burning his if my house burned from ANY cause. I would NOT have burned his house, even if he had burned mine, but he didn’t know that, and a GOOD BLUFF works too sometimes if you can convince them you are serious.
Because he had seen my son C instantly react to what he thought was a purposeful injuring of me, he thought my son would do whatever was necessary to revenge or protect me.
We had just been horsing around and my two boys D and C were there and the old “3 Stooges” thing of poking at someone’s eyes with your two fingers, and the other one puts up a hand edge ways between the eyes to prevent it–he accidentally I think poked hard enough that my own hand hurt my nose and I ducked down, holding my nose. Son C (according to him and son D who saw it) almost swung a fist at the P. He realized it was “accidental” and not a deliberate hit to his mother, but if he had thought it was a deliberate hit, he would have decked the P on the spot, the P saw this, and I think being the coward that they all really are, He assumed that he would get retribution from my sons if anything happened to me or my house. Especially after I told him what I did.
That would NOT have worked with my P-son, however, who was and is arrogant enough that he would have gone ahead with a revenge plot anyway. I have no doubt that P son is plotting now, but because I know that in advance I can watch for this…and also do my best to keep him from getting parole.
Yes, the vengeance that they can plot and plan can be CHILLING…but some are worse than others about it I think.
One of BEH’s favorite expressions was, “Shoot from the bushes.” In other words, wait for the right time for revenge and don’t let them know where it’s coming from. He said it was something his friend said, but even if his friend said it first, BEH definitely took it to heart as his motto.
OxDrover:
Oh boy. I believe, as you said, we’ve all had some “nasty thoughts about what I would like to do to some of the Ps”. But what makes us different from them is that we refrain from it, and do not act upon those thoughts.
I read a blog the other day about someone who turned in their ex-S for fraud or income tax evasion. I believe that very soon, and I mean imminently, my ex-S is really going to be feeling the heat…and I’m talking red-hot blistering heat, for the theft, fraud and/or income tax evasion he has committed. And regardless of his own responsibility for his actions, of course in his own mind he will be the “victim” as he always is.
I have some serious safety concerns because he will entirely blame me for his downfall (I believe he will spend 5 years in a federal prison), although in fact this is a joint effort as many of his “enemies” or those he has figuratively raped and pillaged, have joined forces in the investigation and documentation. I have been very vocal about my findings of illegal and unethical activities he has engaged in (forever as far as I can tell..the trail goes back to 1980). It may be a good time to activate an alarm system.
tryingtorecover:
“Shoot from the bushes” is eerie, but I believe true of S’s, as they are cowards.
On a different topic, I have included the link for this websites of “patterns” which relate to abuse, and I believe, specifically to P/S/N’s;
http://galewarnings.blogspot.com/2007_02_17_archive.html
Peggy,
If you have some serious safety concerns then I recommend more than an alarm system. For the 6 months I was in hiding, I had used a private investigator to give me hints on “how to hide”—as it were, in plain sight. We all leave “paper trails” no matter how we try not to, if we have a job, etc. and it is easy to track us—a PI can find out immediately where ever you lived, who the neighbors were etc. So I ended up buying an RV and parking it in a friend’s yard in a retirement/RV area. So there was no record of me renting a space. I also bought the RV under my initials, instead of name in another county, and registered it for tax purposes in that other county, etc. so that the name might not come up too easily or be easily identifiable on a report if it did show up.
I am currently back at home at my farm but the RV is hooked up and stocked and ready to roll in an hours’ time if I need to go again. WE also have video surveillance on the place, yapping dogs who bark at anyone coming on the place or with in eye sight or smell even if they know the person.
Plus, my son and I go armed at all times on the farm, and have a weapon in the vehicles when we are off the farm. I do not intend to be caught off guard. In a rural area strangers kind of stick out and though with the natural gas drilling in this area there are more strangers around than were here a few years ago, those people all come in company marked trucks with picture identification badges on, so I am not worried that he could get anyone to sneak up on me.
The only one I worry about is the Trojan Horse P but right now he is in prison, AND he knows we are armed and that in this county (in which there is an active restraining order) that we would LOVE for him to come here because if he were here at all he is “In season–no bag limit” and don’t even have to “tag” him like a deer. Our local sheriff would throw a party for me if I nail him to the wall with a slug, and I know that if he comes here he has no good intentions. He and my DIL P are totally without assets of any kind and no vehicle so I don’t think they have the resources with which to even travel, so I actually feel pretty safe. He also has no doubt that I would gladly shoot him, without reservations, because it WOULD be self defense if he came on my property or anywhere near. He is ALSO a VERY big coward as well. He doesn’t fear prison, as he is well adjusted to it, but he doesnt want to go back there either. Plus, he has to register his residence which I can trace on the Internet. My DIL is scared to death of going back to jail I do know that. Even the thought of it makes her tremble and quake–literally.
So, for the time being I think I am safe from them, but at the same time, I keep my options and my eyes open. I will not seek to revenge myself on them, but I will speak at the TH-P’s parole hearing so I hope to keep him in jail another couple of years and by then my X-DIL will have found another sucker to take her in, she can’t wait that long to hook up with another man. She is fairly attractive physically for her age so I think she can manage to find some low life to take her in. She does have marginally salable job skills so can get a job of some kind at some point when she gets some transportation.
You mostly have to “KNOW your ENEMY” and what they are capable of—but if you genuinely think he is physically dangerous to you or your property, I suggest that you consult with someone who knows this kind of person and where you are vulnerable. If that means buying a fire arm and getting training and a permit to carry it, I would recommend doing that rather than standing there looking down the WRONG end of a gun—“better to be tried by 12 (jurors), than carried by 6 (pallbearers)”
OxDrover:
The S knows exactly where I live, and all of my patterns and associates (he lived here with me for 3 years). I have 3 teenagers in school, so I really cannot, nor do I desire, to pick up and move. I have never handled a weapon in my life, and am hesitant to do so…I will have to seriously consider that possibility. Many people (his sister included) have told me to file a restraining order, but alas I cannot do so as he has never physically nor verbally threatened me. He does have a history of assault (but was acquitted) and both domestic and workplace violence.
I do endeavor to keep my eyes and ears open, however, and hope he entertains himself elsewhere with some other pathological venture. And hook up the alarm system. If anything were ever to happen to me, I have documentation that he would be the primary suspect. Of course, I hope no such thing happens…but I can guarantee that when the tax man cometh, he’s going to be MAJOR PO’d…spiteful, enraged, vindictive, with an agenda, and a motive for…revenge.
Flugenbar – You missed my point. The previous sentence read, after a devastating lie etc. he promised NO MORE LIES. Because of all his lies I was effectively just a side car to his motorcycle, a passanger on his bus, and believe me he had smacked into a few trees and gone in the ditch a bunch by then.
In short – other than minor domestic decisions, I had NO SELF DETERMINATION in my life. Being enveloped in lies big and small, being reduced to an audience, a spectator, in his movie of himself. I had also found out how through a major lie of ommission, padded with thousands of active lies, he had manipulated me into leaving my family, friends, support network, city,home and couNtry. So I was needless to say, P.O.’D in a major way.
As I said, the radar story was but one small example – but if as a mother you can’t even have a voice about the safety of your teenage son, what are you, the housemaid, concubine and cook?
In a healthy disagreement you either reach concensus or comprimise. A healthy disagreement DOES NOT mean that one party agrees to the others request and then secretly does the opposite. THAT AIN’T HEALTHY.
And for the record, that was shortly after he had insisted it was fine for the same son to go into our woods to cut down 50′ trees with a chain saw. No training, no supervision, no experience. On a windy day. He narrowly avoided being seriously injured. I am sure my P/S/N/ enjoyed watching me worry frantically, but coldly insist this was manly stuff and good for a 15 yr. old.
I’ve got plenty of big stuff to complain about believe me. It is all the big stuff he didn’t think I needed to know that still has me reeling after 29 years together.
Did I mention it turns out he likes men? Oh, and here is another “small potatoes” lie. He told me for years the reason that certain things didn’t work out in the bedroom was because of his heart meds. Right….so it works in position E F and G, but not position A & B. That would be the meds I guess. The pill knows. Give me a break. There is no end to the level of deception these disordered people will engage in.
Lies disempower and humiliate the recipient. Long term lies are devastating. Lies of ommission can do just as much harm. What part of LYING are you defending here?
Not to rant, but you should take a deeper look at what people have been through on this site before you assume us to be frail whiners.
And Adriane, thanks so much for your insight.
Peace
P.S. I think the German word referred to might be “selbstheilich” excuse the spelling – translates to roughly “considers himself holy” , ain’t that the truth.
And Flugenbar ( which means flight worthy or flyable in German?) you are right about one thing, we need to study why we let them be holy, cause they sure as he-l ain’t.
Peggy,
I just went back and read your “gale warnings” blog, about the PATTERNS of abuse—and it is so right on.
The “tiny” and “insignificant” tests that they do, and then getting more bold and increasing the “pressure” and the abuse to see just where you will stop them (or if you will).
By ignoring those patterns, the totality of the “little things” as for example in eyeswideshut’s “radar” detector and teaching the son to lie to his mother and to break the law, and take risks by driving above the speed limit and then thwart the law with the radar detector—that may have been a “little thing” yet it taught the son a whole RAFT of BAD BEHAVIORS, and teaching kids day-by-day on the little things is what imparts a MORAL COMPAS as Liane says. It isn’t the sitting the kid down and having a “moral talk” with them, it is MODELING what a moral life is, and obviously the boy’s father had a DIFFERENT moral compass than his mother.
I think the radar detector thing is a very good demonstration of how a child can be taught lying and all the other things mentioned above, and “if dad says it is okay, and acts that way, then that is the way I AM SUPPOSED to act”
Maybe by the law of the land that “father” had as much right to teach his kid “his moral compass” (if you want to call it that) as the mother did to teach HER moral compass to the son, but I think it is CHILD abuse, as well as disrespect and abuse of the mother.
It is not the way good parents should behave. If parents have differing opinions on how a child should be raised (say, which church or political party to believe in) The parents can speak privately and AGREE on a compromise where the child is given an opportunity to see both sides of the story so that he can make his own decision when he is old enough to judge.
But a general look at a moral compass needs to be something that both parents AGREE ON.
The problem comes when one parent is an abuser and says one thing and does another, i.e. is DISHONEST. How can you come to an agreement with someone who is DISHONEST? Someone who not only teaching your child something that is against the law, puts them at risk for injury or injuring someone else, but teaches them to lie about it?
That to me, while some might think it is “not important,” is VERY important in the totality of the parenting.
My husband and I disagreed on a lot of things, religion, and politics most notably, but we agreed on what behavior to expect out of our children. We respected each others differing opinons and he h ad no problem with me taking my children to church or teaching them my religion though he was an agnostic. EVen though he might not believe “lying” was a “sin” he also didn’t believe it was GOOD.
EVen when one of us thought the other was “wrong” we demanded that the children respect our right to differing opinons but as far as a “moral compass” the kids never knew we had any differing opinons because we presented a “united front” to the kids both verbally and by example.