An article in last week’s New York Times magazine contained the following amazing statement: “Repeating a claim, even if only to refute it, increases its apparent truthfulness.”
Although the article had nothing to do with sociopaths, the statement made me think of my ex-husband, James Montgomery. Among his many lies, Montgomery claimed to be a member of the Australian military, a decorated Vietnam War hero, and a member of the Special Forces. None of this was true, but from what I can tell, he’d been making the claims since at least 1980 (we met in 1996). They’d been repeated many times, for many years—which apparently enhanced their believability.
Like most of us here on Lovefraud, I felt like a complete fool for being so totally deceived. Why couldn’t I see the lies? But it turns out that I have plenty of company. Psychological research indicates that in general, people can distinguish truths from lies only about 53 percent of the time. That’s not much better than flipping a coin.
No signs of lying
Some people believe that there are physiological signals that someone is lying—for example, extraneous hand gestures or averting eye contact.
In one study, scientists asked more than 2,000 people from all over the world, “How can you tell when people are lying?” The number one answer was the same: “Liars avert their gaze.”
This may be true for some people, but it is not true all the time, and probably not true at all with sociopaths. Here at Lovefraud, we all have stories of the predator gazing into our eyes while he or she lied through his teeth.
Some researchers believe that liars tend to move their arms, hands and fingers less, blink less, and have more tension in their voices. Still, these behaviors are not consistent—some people who lie display them, and others don’t.
The point is, in hundreds of studies, researchers have found no reliable signal that indicates when someone is lying.
I don’t know, but I assume that the studies were done on general populations, and not populations of sociopaths. If we can’t detect lying in normal people, what chance do we have with sociopaths?
Truth About Deception
The situation gets even worse in romantic relationships. The reason, quite simply, is that we want to believe and trust our romantic partners.
“As people become more intimate and more emotionally involved they also become less accurate at detecting their partner’s deception,” states the website Truth About Deception. “People are too willing to give their romantic partners the benefit of the doubt.”
The Truth about Deception website is dedicated to explaining lies in romantic relationships, and the information presented is scary. For example, it states, “Most people think they are really good at telling when their partner is lying, but research shows that thinking you are good at detecting deception does not make it so.”
This creates, according to the website, a dangerous situation:
- As intimacy increases:
- People’s confidence at detecting deception increases
- People’s actual ability to detect deception declines
- Partners have more reason to lie
The website suggests that the only real way of determining if a romantic partner is lying is through some type of monitoring or surveillance.
Awareness, intuition, evaluation
So what’s the answer? How do we know when someone is lying?
The first step is to realize that people do, in fact, lie. That’s how honest, trustworthy people get into trouble—we don’t lie, so we don’t expect people to lie to us. This is a dangerous blind spot.
Our initial clue that someone is lying will probably come from our intuition. If we get that hit, that inkling, that the truth is not being told, we need to pay attention.
Then, we need to critically evaluate what is being said, along with evidence that proves or disproves the statements. When facts are irrefutable, we should believe the facts, and not the pleas of the liar.
LilOrphan, your ex sounds so much like my ex. Mine would do anything to push himself to the top of the pile and that included treading all over anyone who he deemed to be in his way. He was so selfish, everything was all about him and how wonderfully talented he thought he was! Each time he joined a new band, it was the best thing ever. He would be full of enthusiasm as he told me how he was going to work wonders with the band, and they would get more gigs because he was in it, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. In reality, within a few months he would come crashing back down to earth, and moan continuously about how badly he was treated by the other band members (?), how awful they were to work with, how they were lacking in morals….*I raise my eyes to heaven on this one – talk about the pot calling the kettle black!* Then he would either get kicked out of the band, or leave, trying to persuade the others to follow him. He was so full of himself, he loved himself, trying to pretend he was a good, moralistic, lovely guy. In reality, he was a nasty, evil man, a user and a backstabber amongst other things.
You are right LilOrphan “everyone else”…..that does include us too. The hurt this causes is beyond belief isn’t it.
hummingbird, yes it is very hard to sort the truth from the lies. There are times that I have wished I could speak to someone who really knows my ex, so that I could get a real picture of the man I was with, rather than the one he painted for me. I now know enough about him to realise that it wouldn’t be a pleasant experience finding out the rest of the truth about this man and his past. But for some strange reason, I do want to know everything. Anyone else feel this way? Oxdrover perhaps you can shed some light on this. I enjoy reading your posts….always so wonderfully informative and full of excellent advice.
Oh, Marie…LOL..YES! Pretty much hit that nail on the head. Mine said similar things about the bands…how he was “the glue” of the band, how untalented they all are (lousy musicians) and the same for the band he was with before….and the same for my dad’s band, who he was with before THAT.
Even his alleged “best friend” — he had nothing nice to say about that guy’s playing or personality. He said that guy lived “the world according to ___ (that guy’s name).”
Now I think that was projection.
The morals thing floored me. You see, years ago when we’d known one another, I believed all that moral pontificating. I thought we belonged together because I was REALLY that moral: no married men, no multiple partners at once, monogamist, no cheating, you know — sincere woman, looking for the real thing.
So years later when he came back and I heard just a snippet of his escapades, I thought: Whoa, who the heck IS this person?
That first night after “catching up” I went home and cried, for what he’d “become,” for our separation (which I naively still thought was partly my doing), for all the things that had happened to us over time. It was so jarring and sad, thinking I’d caused some of it!
Hah, perhaps I should come with my own “idiot” label for the forehead! 🙂 His life was his doing. He had no intention of changing what he was. I was just being re-added to the pile, another cd in rotation.
I wish to know the full truth, too. Think it’s because that will further validate what we already know and convince us the problem was them and it isn’t going to change. We already know that, intellectually. We’re just wishing to gather enough evidence to convince our hearts.
Personally, I have enough evidence to book, convict, imprison and toss away the key.
When and how do you recover from the hurt and anger?
Some days I’d just like to hurt him like he has hurt me.
I am sure that there were many women in his past. He once told me he can’t remember the number of women he has had sex with.
Pretty sad for him and for them.
I would like to fill in all the missing pieces as well. What he really has been doing all these years. How many lives he has wrecked? He has an old girlfriend who still calls him. I am amazed at the hold these men have – even after the relationship ends. Maybe he is still involved with her as well as the mothers of his godchildren. How would I know for sure and would I want to?
Marie,
Yes, I can completely identify with “wanting to know” the truth, ALL the truth. Sometimes this is impossible of course and we can never sort it all out. Through the years I have come to know the a couple of his “friends” on the outside or their families.
My son learned to be a master boot maker while he was in prison, and got into the craft shop there. Some inmates “work” for themselves producing various hand crafted items. He learned to make boots from an inmate that took him on as an “apprentice”—he in turn later had his own apprentices. Almost every shoe repair store in the state is populated by former inmates as no one in the free world has enough time to learn this trade which must be passed on from master to pupil.
Anyway, my son became quiet adept at this and his boots were selling for thousands of dollars a pair. When his teacher got out of prison on parole, I met this man and his wife. He was about 42 years old at that point. Moved back to his home town near his nice family, and went to work. He and I talked and he seemed very open and truthful to me. Gave me some “insights” into my own son’s behaviors—of course—only the things I wanted to hear.
I thought this man would “make it” on the outside. For a while I had business near the town where he and his wife lived (he had renewed a relationship with a woman he knew before going to prison 20 yrs before and they got married) and I would frequently visit him and his wife when I was in the area.
Later, I found out that he had “gotten bored” with real life—getting up and going to work each day, coming home at night to television and a home cooked meal, going to bed and repeating this the next day. He came home one evening and told his wife that he “NEEEDED TO BE FREE” and took off, leaving her high and dry.
A few months later he got high on drugs and was arrested after putting a chain on an ATM machine and dragging it off. He is now back in prison, will most likely never get out again. I visited with his now x-wife on a recent trip to Texas. I spent the night with her and we talked all through the night. She is a pretty sharp woman, much sharper than I had realized when I had seen her only in his presence. She has some problems emotionally from growing up in an abusive family of her own, and being involved with a series of Ps herself, but she is doing very well now, gaining great insight into her own tendency to be vulnerable to these men.
She also realizes that her X is a psychopath, and gave me great insight into him and my son, and some details that I had not known.
This poor woman, due to her bi-polar diagnosis and the chaotic lifestyle that she endured because of that and the Ps she became involved in had a very fragmented work history so her disability payments are so so that it is unbelievable to me that she can exist, much less live on them. When I was there she asked me if I would take her small dog home with me as she could not afford to feed him.
That night I was there she offered me half of the ONLY remaining food she had in the house for supper—I ate it, but only not to insult her, but I choked down every bite and held back the tears. Yet, in spite of this crushing poverty she is making it, she is doing well, managing her life, living within her means with the help of the food bank. She used her “back pay” when she did finally get her disability to completely pay for a small place to live.
All the way home from there I thanked God for the multitude of blessings that I have, and thanked him for taking care of this poor woman.
I guess maybe this is all an “emotional autopsy” for me on this relationship–in any “failed” relationship I have always tended to want to know what went wrong–whether it was a quarrel with a neighbor over a fence, or a boy friend, a boss, or whatever the type of relationship. Sometimes this has helped me in the future to avoid this kind of confrontation. Funny thing was though, I could always learn from a situation where it was not a FAMILY member, if it was a boss, or a boy friend I seemed to “get it” but not with my own family members. I think somehow I thought I HAD to work it out no matter what, or FIX it no matter what it took. IT NEVER OCCURED TO ME TO GO PERMANENT NC with any of them except my P-bio father, and he didn’t raise me.
NC is of course the OBVIOUS answer, when you think about it. WHY have anything to do with someone who is mean to you, demeans you? Yet, I rejected it completely as an option even after it was pointed out to me—but since instituting it, WOW—PEACE. It took a while for it to sink in and give me enough space to start to hear my OWN inner voices rather than the TAPES that had been implanted in my head first by my enabling “P-by-proxy” mother, and by my son himself.
I also realized that my mother had used religion (her version) to implant “guilt chips” inside my head that I must always accept her actions as “just, right, and kind” or God would disapprove of me.
Twisted religion can be a POWERFUL WEAPON in the arsenal of the Ps and their “troops” (those that enable them) and they will use that as a first line of “defense” but if that fails they will go on to other more painful weapons, gaslighting and crazy making along with a smear campaign.
In many cases, and in mine, I was so frantic with fear, stress, guilt etc. that I definitely APPEARED CRAZY and I am not sure I wasn’t totally crazy—
IN going back and doing the “emotional autopsy” of my failed relationships with my mother, my son, the X-DIL, and my son C’s failed relationship with his XW (how he got suckered in and stayed in) I am more able to see where I WENT WRONG, where I ignored the red flags,
Just knowing what they are doesn’t help me heal, I am focusing on ME—what I did wrong in RESPONSE to their behavior—where I over looked the OBVIOUS LIE and WHY I over looked the obvious lie.
How can I use this knowledge to heal myself. Well, first off I think in raising my own confidence to make my own decisions about what is “right” or “wrong” behavior and what behavior I will expect,… NO, DEMAND,…. from those close to me.
Realizing that I don’t HAVE TO TOLERATE BAD BEHAVIOR NO MATTER WHO IT IS–Did I give birth to them? Does that give them a right to use me? Did they give birth to me? Does THAT give them a right to abuse me? Of course not, but at first I didn’t see that.
What is “forgiveness”?
My family’s “definition” per the twisted religion that was preached to me was that it meant “let’s pretend it never happened”—“let’s don’t call the malefactor to task for his bad behavior, if you do you will be punished with the threat of hell fires for not forgiving.”
I have come to see that spiritually “forgiveness” is not the above, but is getting the bitterness against these people out of your own heart. It doesnt mean playing “let’s pretend none of this happened.” It does NOT mean reestablishing TRUST. I can forgive these people (get the bitterness out of my own heart) but I don’t have to “trust them” ever again. I don’t have to interact with them ever again.
I have also realized that I am entitled to respectful treatment from everyone. I do not have to tolerate disrespectful treatment.
I have realized that my instincts are good, and that I should listen to them.
I have realized that I can set my own rules about who I interact with and how I interact with them. I can set appropriate boundaries and enforce them. No one else has to agree that my boundaries are “correct.” They are MY BOUNDARIES and I have ever right to set them as I see fit!
If my “boundary” is that there is no smoking in my home and you light up a cigar after being informed of the boundary, it is not MY place to tolerate it, YOU are in MY home and should respect MY boundary. Don’t want to respect my boundary, then GET THE HELL GONE I do not have to “feel bad” because I didn’t tolerate your crossing my boundary and being disrespectful to me.
At the emotional distance I am now after nearly a year of total NC with my P son, and coming up on a year of NC with the Trojan-Horse P (unless you count seeing him in court) and almost 7 months of 99% NC with my mother, I am not “disturbed” any more by actually seeing or conversing about business on a limited amount of contact. I realize that I will have to be in some contact about that with my mother for my own financial benefit. But I keep it to BUSINESS and if she starts to wander off in to a “personal” conversation, the conversation is OVER immediately. (That’s my boundary and I’m sticking to it firmly) I am no longer her power of attorney for her personal finances or her medical care, so what her latest interest rate is or her cholesterol level is not of interest to me.
I realize that “honor your father and mother” does NOT mean that I have to take whatever dysfunctional behavior they want to dish out, but it means that I should BECOME the kind of person that would BRING honor to a parent.
In the end, as painful as this whole lifetime of pain has been, I think that I have grown from it, at last. I have grown and healed mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and it feels good.
The truth may very well indeed be PAINFUL, but it can set us FREE. I think in many ways that it is like “labor pains” in that at the time you are experiencing them they encompass your entire being and you would do anything to not be experiencing them, you ask yourself why you didn’t use birth control! LOL But when they labor is over, you are glad that it happened because you have given birth to a new human—I think I have given BIRTH TO MYSELF. A new me.
OxDrover, I love your last paragraph. My sister-in-law sent me this quote today.
“For better or worse, you are the only you that you will ever get. What you decide to do with you; is up to you. Tomorrow you will still be you. The question is whether you will move closer today to whom you want to be. If you are patient, if you are persistent, if you are consistent, an amazing transformation will begin to occur.”
I haven’t been posting that much for a while. I’ve been trying to work on me and not give him anymore of my energy. The thoughts of everything haven’t been there constantly.
I’m dealing with him now though. On Monday I got a call from my son’s counselor’s office saying his health ins. had been canceled. I text Bad Dad and didn’t get a response so I called human resources at the sheriff’s office and he is no longer employed. When BD finally got back to me(he didn’t know I new he quit) He said the ins was the same, he was just waiting for new paper work. Long story short he says he is moving back to our state, but he wouldn’t tell me where he’s working until I told him it was a court order. The two places he says he’s going to work( if one falls through then it’s the other) I think are both lies. The Income Deduction Order had just gone to his employer and then he quit. Oh well, it was to be expected.
Dear Trying to recover,
If he had insurance at a company he can COBRA out for your son, the price would be high of course, but if there is a COURT order that he must pay insurance then he will have to COBRA out and pay OR GO TO JAIL if you push it.
yea, as soon as you nick their check, they quit. Typical, and I don’t know if he is bothering you trying to see your son or not or even if your son wants to see him, sometimes it is “cheaper” in terms of it all to let them “get away without child support” etc so that they will STAY OUT of your kid’s life.
Yea, I agree we are our own “for better or worse” and I am working hard to make it the BETTER.
Ii am amazed at the amount of things I have accomplished this week already. Today I sent the final draft of my letter to the parole board for the Trojan-Horse-P’s up coming parole this month–3 1/2 pages of (if I DO SAY SO MYSELF) of GREAT prose (sound of me patting myself briskly on the back) sprinkled with clinical references and citing references from various psychological text books, detailing why HE IS A GREAT RISK to society if let out.
One of the nice things about that kind of thing is that they sure don’t want to make the mistake of letting out someone (especially a child molester) who then goes out and reoffends AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN WARNED….LOL. The governor here prior to the one we have now, let out a “famous” rapist and then within a month the guy had raped and KILLED a girl (first killing he did we know of) but sure put egg on the Gov’s face. So it would be “safer” for them to keep him in (no one is begging to let him out) and make sure they didn’t release him and he reoffended—thus putting egg on their faces–PLAY IT SAFE–the politicians motto.
I also finished up the son C and X-P-DIL’s taxes for 2007 and have them ready for the witch to sign, so even splitting the money 50/50 with her he will get back quite a bit more $$$. Plus, I can give back her cat soon that I have been “holding for hostage” for her good behavior. LOL Of course there is no way I would harm her cat, but she thinks I would dismember it and send it to her in pieces, so let her think that if it will make her cooperate! LOL One of my really really REALLY sick friends said I should make a video of me in a black mask holding the cat with a copy of today’s newspaper in the video and a big long knife at the cat’s throat! But that was a little bit sicker than even my twisted sense of humor would go for. LOL But if my DIL wants to believe I would harm her cat and that will get her to cooperate and make life easier for me, that is okay too.
I’m just so tired of dealing with them and thinking about them, and want to get on with doing things for me! At least, though, the stage where I was a “blithering, blubbering, lying on the floor sucking my thumb pile of protoplasm” is past and I am now more logical, rational, and have quit sucking my thumb and am down to about 10 cigarettes a day instead of 40-50, 2 cups of coffee instead of 12, and eating real food. Sleeping 6-8 hours a night of actual REST, and laughing at the most absurd things in the world until I choke. I’m even approaching somewhere in the range of “normal” now—and I think that is better than I’ve ever been. LOL
I’m not “patient” but I AM persistent so maybe that “amazing transformation” you spoke of will occur!
OxDrover, I’m glad you’re in a better stage of healing. I am too. I’m filing contempt papers. If he would just go away I would let it all slide to have him out of our lives. I don’t think he’s going away anytime soon. He still wants to control me and use my son to do it. He will also use my son to play devoted dad to his gf and her wealthy family. He’s going to be very angry when he finds out I filed. So be it. I’m not going to be afraid anymore.
Cat hostage video-lol lol lol
DEar trying,
Yea, I am sure in a much better place than I was, but some days are still better than others, but none are HORRIBLE any more. I used to work for a physician that had a saying “some days is tragic, and some days is magic!” (bad grammar but true saying!) I’m finding though that I can handle the “tragic” days better and better and I don’t get kicked to the bottom of the heap any more even if it is a bad day.
I think one of the things I am doing that really helps is that I am consciously trying to keep my STRESS LEVEL DOWN. If a situation would cause stress I avoid it. If I don’t want to do something, I don’t let anyone talk me into doing it., and I don’t let THAT (them trying to talk me into something) stress me either.
I’m learning a new “language”–it’s called NO–I form my lips and say this “magic word” and presto! I’m not sure why I never learned this word before, it is really an ALL-PURPOSE word and can be used to make stress go away. Great discovery really! LOL
Yea, the cat hostage video was pretty funny, actually. LOL
Good for you for filing the contempt papers. Yea, it will make him mad, but OH WELL. (I say that phrase so often my parrot has picked it up). Don’t you know those people at the family courts are tired of dealing with Ps? I bet 2/3s of the people or more that they have to deal with are Ps, as the non-Ps cooperate with each other to raise their children. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
“The truth-when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person look bad-especially when the innocent person is honest and admits his mistakes. The basic assumption that the truth lies between the testimony of the two sides always shifts the advantage to the lying side and away from the side telling the truth. Under most circumstances, this shift put together with the fact that the truth is going to also be twisted in such a way as to bring detriment to the innocent person, results in the advantage always resting in the hands of liars-psychopaths.”
This is one of the scariest aspects of psychopaths, as far as I am concerned. Especially if you are going up against one in our legal/judicial system.
P.S. Psychopaths can pass lie detector tests, so we should not beat ourselves up too much about being lyed to.
But when I do catch someone in a lie, or when someone is not what they “present” themself to be, the first thing that runs through my mind is always, “What else are they lying about?”
Rosa,
I found this concerning Drew Peterson and him taking a Lie detector test. Thought you might want to read it.
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Drew-Petersons-Lie-Detector-Test-Polygraph.html
And yes, whenever anyone lies to me my first thought would be “What else are they capable of lying about?”