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LETTER TO LOVEFRAUD: He is asking for forgiveness

Editor’s note: The following article was sent by the Lovefraud reader who posts as “Jov77.” It is actually a letter that Jov77 received from a former friend, who he now believes is disordered. Jov77 has stopped contact with this person. He’s looking for help in making sense of the letter. (The comments in parentheses are explanations by Jov77.)

The letter below was just given to me  from this friend I have been closely associated with for some years now.  I had numerous challenges in the friendship which left me drained and exhausted so I wrote a letter expressing some thoughts. In the letter I did not ask him for anything in relation to making the friendship better.  This person is disordered in character but there are traits that are sociopathic. He might even be a socio based on what he revealed about himself to me over the years.

He wrote:
To be honest I don’t remember all that was said on the paper to me in writing, but however, a line that I remembered you said that, “God. He is the only one can help me.” (I said to him that only God can help in our situation.)  To cut everything short it is not that I don’t appreciate you as a person or a friend.  It’s just that at times I have to make my own decisions and mistakes. I can’t be always taking advice from you.  How do you think am gonna make the right choice in life for myself. I have made some crucial decisions in life where I have gained knowledge from them and experience also, where they let me become as hard as stone on the outside but on the inside I am a human with feelings and emotions and they are pretty much alive.  (After almost four years now, I am yet to see those feelings and emotions that are alive. He will help people in a big way. If that is referred to as feelings and emotions alive then I can’t question it.)

(This is a 28 yrs old man saying):  I was young and inexperienced even up to last year.  I might speak mature but a part of me was still a child and even though we have not said much to each other for the past couple of months it helped me a lot to become a man to look back at some of my relationships that broke up.  I was struggling in them.  Reason being. Knowing right from wrong and claiming that I am serving God and still chose to do the wrong.  I was fooling myself and been a damn idiot; that was why when we spoke I said that I can no longer be fooling myself and others and play games.  (The right from wrong and fooling self meant that as a church man and leader in the church he was still sexually promiscuous and toying with the head and emotions of females both in and outside of the church. He is in training to be promoted to the highest position at his church.  That might have brought about some consciousness on his part.)

I appreciate you as a person and a friend.  Not because you never hear me say it.  Also, your attributes — you did not throw them like pearls to be trampled upon like a pig; but to say that the affection you show me at times it is way too much and it makes me think different.

You are a good friend and also a good person and for me I appreciate that about you.  But also, I want to say  I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way  that I know about.  I am asking you for your pardon — and that which I know not of, I am asking you also for your forgiveness.  In life we all make mistakes some we do know and just do care about, others we just didn’t see it as hurting someone.  Just to say it is a part of life and we make them but I am simple saying thanks for your open arms in my times of need.  I appreciate it and yes I appreciate you.  And, also thanks for been a good or a wonderful friend or person to me when I was not to you.

 


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29 Comments on "LETTER TO LOVEFRAUD: He is asking for forgiveness"

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It is a confusing letter. My ex-spath liked to write letters like this when she wanted to manipulate me. But the first thing I notice here is the words “I’m sorry.” My ex-spath NEVER apologized for anything on her own, only when I pointed out she ought to apologize. She had no concept that she should be sorry or apologetic for anything because, in her mind, nothing she did – no matter how awful – was wrong.

I suppose the only true test of anyone, though, is through observing their behavior. Someone who cares about you acts like it. If this person’s future interactions with you do not reflect what he says here, then these are just words and nothing more.

Excellent advice, Donna.

Jov77,

This is a confusing, jumbled, and unclear letter. As for the ‘I am sorry’. I was apologized to. It means nothing. I would continue to follow your gut feelings about this person, and evaluate him according to all his past actions, and not his confusing attempts to draw you back into a conversation about mistakes, growing up, redemption, forgiveness, etc…

Using this language seems more like an attempt to highjack deep christian principles, rather than express his personal experience or regret. If this is the language and ideology you live in, then what better way to manipulate you, and make you feel ‘guilty’, if you do not extend yourself in a christian-like manner?

I am sorry to hear that he is being promoted. He must be pretty good at keeping his facade up, and fooling the leaders of this church. Sad….

Slim

I agree with Darth,Donna, and Slimone, and will add a bit to their observations. The letter was difficult to follow. With my pseudoWife the issues are clearly defined as we discussed her interactions with men constantly while we were dating. When she had no other options because I was ready to end the relationsham, she would offer up what could look like an apology which was wrapped in subtle justifications or overt presumptions to condescend to teach me moral or ethical lessons. Like Darth said. She has only apologized 3 or 4 times, and her actions have proven hundreds of times over that She Is A Liar and her apologies are nothing but manipulations and lies. My pseudoShepherd at my place of worship deceived me, was conflicted in his interest as he was himself engaging in exactly the kind of behaviors that I came to him for help with. After repeatedly lying to cover over his actions probably a year or so later he asked to meet me Alone. He was smug, aloof and condescending. He gaslighted me telling me an entire series of events ” never happened “. When I held my resolve and began elaborating the minute details and quoting him he subtly backpedaled. Anything that he thought he could twist and rationalize or justify he dug in firmly on, excusing and minimizing. Anything else he conveniently ” had no recollection of whatsoever “. He claimed to come to me to apologize only because he was basically forced to, continued to behave in a unethical, highly manipulative manner, refused to accept any accountability or to make any real amends . As such there was no resolution to the issues but only the fascade he offered to hide his entitlement and to shield him from accountability. Sound familiar ?

“Relationsham”—I nearly read clean over that word! Then I did a doubletake and read it again. Nice word, I like it! 😀

Jov77
Any attention whether negative or positive given to a sociopath is still attention and a crucial mistake. Run don’t walk and don’t stop to look behind you! God Bless

Dear Jov77
Appearances are deceiving. IMO, he is not asking for forgiveness. He is asking to not be held accountable.

I was married to a very cruel man for a lot of years. I learned to pay close attention to his “apologies”.

Your friend does two things that stand out. 1) He distances himself from his actions. Notice that he does not actually apologize for anything specific that he did. He has YOU fill the the blank – “IF he hurt you in any way??!! (a sign of avoiding true accountibility.) Such vagueness about the wrong done reveals that he’s not truely acknowledging his regret.

and 2) He excuses himself, esp in the phrase “we all make mistakes”. This is a way of equalizing YOU to be the same kind of cruel person he is, at the same time trivializing his behaviors/choices as “a mistake”. Again, he’s avoiding and this is not a true apology.

SPECIFIC Regret, remorse, repair. These make up an apology and are missing in this letter.

(Personally, it seems to me he just wants you to stop being mad at him and go back to giving him the benefit of your company. He also flatters you in this letter; there’s a reason for flattery, and btw, there’s a reason for his pity play too. been there. done that. paid the price, over and over and over.)

Hello Everyone,

Donna. Thank you for posting the article. Let me say a big thanks to you all for the comments made. In reading the comments and advice from you all I could clearly see that the messages followed the same trend consistently. Great minds think alike and my thoughts too were flowing along the same line.

The first thing about the letter for is that it is disconnected and disjoined. Its message is unclear. Based on how well I know him I knew he was not being really authentic. As some of you have observed the apology was not genuine. Some time in the past I had to demand an apology from him. When he finally got around to apologizing he used the same “If I hurt you.” Immediately I stopped him and told him that I did say you hurt me. He then changed the apology to something acceptable.

Another think too is that a big portion of the letter was about himself. He barely addressed the issues I had with him. And there is some generalization instead of addressing things specifically. At the end of the letter he wrote: “There is no need to reply in writing.” Do you see the manipulation? I am not to respond in writing because what he really wants is for me to agree to have discussions with him.

Since my “no contact” I have been seeing improvements in my life and there is a desire within to keep away from him. Again, everybody’s comment was worthwhile and I appreciate it. The no contact remains in effect.

Once more thank you all so very much.

Regards
Jov77

Just to add.

Donna you are right about “word salad.” Once you try to have a heart to heart conversation with him, or a conversation that has to do with emotional matters, his live conversation is jumbled or scattered all over the place. And it takes so much energy to keep him on track or connected with the topic at hand. The first paragraph of the article “Communicating with the disordered” posted July 13,2013 explains it well.

My impression is the same as everyone else’s. The letter is indeed confusing and disjointed, and that alone could hint at the disrupted thought processes often found in psychopathy. Among other things, the allusion to the famous metaphor of “casting pearls before swine” seemed itself a kind of “pearl,” an ornament planted clumsily in the letter because the writer thought it sounded impressive, but had no feel for just how stylistically incongruous it really was in this context.

As for having feelings and emotions that are “pretty much alive,” I had to ask “Pretty much alive? Is that the best he can manage?” It’s what I might expect someone to say whose emotions are actually half dead!

I must say it would worry me too if this guy is headed for the “highest position” at his church. (Unless that’s a cryptic reference to being “bats in the belfry”!)

Redwald, thank you for my morning chuckle today!!! LOVE the imagery of ” bats in the belfry “… yes…hanging works!!!! xx

First of all, this guy should NEVER be the “Shepherd” of your church. He needs to exposed before the elders/members/etc! Your church will never be blessed by God with this liar and deceiver heading it!

Second, the words “I’m sorry”,”forgive me” and “I made a mistake”,
mean nothing if not followed by a humble, penitent,contrite,remorseful and sincere heart. Words means nothing. I have heard them all from my son. You know that saying, “Action speaks louder than words”? Just because he asks for forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to be a fool to be used by him again. Watch and wait and be wise.

If he is truly sincere in his repentance, you will see a LASTING change. But, don’t hold your breath because unless it is a miracle of God the change is most likely another try in manipulation.

Unfortunately there are far too many sociopaths in positions of power, not just in the churches. These personalities prey on the vunerable and take what they want from them. Mom….my heart goes out to you. I have a 35 yr old spath daughter. When it is your child you face some very personal and soul searching decisions. Giving up a child because they are toxic isn’t as easy as it sounds. I struggle with this daily.

Everyone here, really good comments, each one useful. Notwhathesaid – absolutely. HeartbrokenMom – amen. Redwald – excellent, and your bats in the belfrey, i havent heard that one in a while, good stuff. I was thinking emotional vampires – bats – i think we have a connection here ! I have to say I’m a bit surprised by how many here seem to understand and articulate with such clarity on the topic of repentance, true contrition, and accountability. It fills me with hope that some still value such things. I have seen a very large shift not only in western society’s narcissistic leanings where honestly apologizing and then backing it up with actions has been largely replaced by a slick media campaign. Hire a publicist and spin, spin, spin. With a good rebranding you can actually use the once offensive behavior as comedic fodder. Sadly I have seen an increase in this in day to day life too, and I’m glad to hear it’s not pandemic.

This writer was very hard to understand….in my experience – a true spath. They make absolutely no sense to me, I cannot understand how people can think as they do and I have raised one. The spath is only writing what he thinks the reader wants to hear and there is absolutely no remorse. Based on his religous position he knows what to say, however; he is not able to show true feelings. It’s an act…a game they play. My daughter always wanted to be an actress….well this mother has seen through her act for many years. It is all a game to them, they thrive on drama and playing people. To Jov77: Be careful, once they know you are on to them they will do everything in their power to discredit you.

Just to pick one: “I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way that I know about.” Did anyone else notice that he is only apologizing for what he knows about? He certainly is not asking to find out how he may have hurt her, only what he deems to be “hurtful” can be included in his apology. Psychobabble for sure.

That comment stood out to me as well!

I guess i’m cynical, but if that is an apology, it’s a poor excuse for one or maybe just a sociopathic one. Here are the rules of forgiveness that i live by:
1 Recognition- Recognize the violation
2 Regret- Show remorse
3 Responsibility -Take full responsiblity
4 Restitution -Do what it takes to pay for the violation
5 Repeat -Never repeat the violation on anyone

My exspath would say “i have to live with what i did to you”, while he was doing the same thing or worse to his next victim! Obviously, he either didn’t recognize what he had done, had no remorse or he wouldn’t have been building up more to be sorry for, obviously took no responsibility, owes me 30K which i have a judgement for that he has not bothered to pay one penny of and of course, he repeated his violations as soon as it was possible on his next victim. Do i forgive him, NO! I would feel like a moron if i did!
R

The context and the content of the letter is obvious to everyone who has read it. Clearly we have all had similar experiences with a disordered character way of thinking. I have picked out and expanded on a few points from the letter and posters.

“It is not that I don’t appreciate you as a person or a friend. It’s just that at times I have to make my own decisions and mistakes. I can’t be always taking advice from you.”

Jumbled, disjointed thoughts obviously. In live conversations it would take so much of my mental energy to keep a conversation with him on track. It was always necessary to be on the watch out for manipulation, lies and twisted, disconnected and inconsistent thoughts or stories.

In the letter he mentioned a few times his appreciation for me. He said I am a good friend or wonderful person. The joke is that if you should ask him to elaborate on why I am a good friend or wonderful person; or why he appreciates me, you will get to see how shallow his emotions are ”“ no depth. He would begin to stumble ”“ unable to explain himself and go off track. In the quote he is speaking about appreciation and then there is a sudden switch in thought about decision making and advice taking.

“I can’t be always taking advice from you.” I told him the truth. The fact is that he should do a DNA test to confirm the paternity of a little girl. He can’t take advice from me because I have called him out strongly in doing the right thing ”“ DNA test. It is not fair to the child. Some time ago his pastor saw him with this 3 yr old little girl. The pastor asked if the child was his. He told the minister no. The minister asked if he was sure. The response was no I have a son only. He has a 6 yr old son. His sister and I strongly believe that the child belongs to him and have been on his case about it. He knows it too but treats the situation like a joke/entertainment. The girl child has strong resemblances and features of his family. Others have noticed it too. (Same mother for both children.) He is trying to avoid the responsibility it seems. Then he has the nerve to want to be an evangelist and claims to know right from wrong. And has a passion for the church. He thinks his promiscuity was the only sin and this he claimed to have stopped. Right?

Many of you have expressed concerns about him and the church. He has held every leadership position in the church except Women’s Movement. Even now he has a number of positions and is being trained to become an Elder. The truth is that he has the pastor and everyone else under the spell of his super charm. He is very well-liked and that makes it hard to prove any of his wrong doings. He wears his façade extremely well. He can just say two sentences and his charm wins you over.

“I have gained knowledge from them and experience also, where they let me become as hard as stone on the outside but on the inside I am a human with feelings and emotions.”

Actually it is the other way around. On the outside he is a strong looking person. On the inside he is emotionally hard, dumb and numb. Whenever he tries to express love it comes off as fake. I have seen his awkwardness a few times when confronted with a situation which required a show of affection. Something inside of him don’t quite get the affection thing.

“Even though we have not said much to each other for the past couple of months it helped me a lot to become a man to look back at some of my relationships that broke up.”

That remark totally doesn’t make any sense. I had to go “No Contact” in order for him to man-up and reflect on his past intimate relationships. Oh please! His intimate relationships has a lifespan of 6 months max. A new relationship could start as early as two weeks after one ended and each one promised to be different yet the outcome was always the same. He never took responsibility for any broken relationship. It was always the female’s fault. He comes up with these self-discovery stories whenever the no contact is weighing down on him.

“I appreciate you as a person and a friend. Not because you never hear me say it. Also, your attributes ”“ you did not throw them like pearls to be trampled upon like a pig.”

One poster picked up that he was off base with the pearl and pig metaphor. Rightly so, because it did not come from him. In the past I would tell him that he treated my attributes like when pearls are thrown to pigs. Pigs don’t know that value of pearls so they would simply trample on them. Some of you have already talked out his fake appreciation. I have helped him in major ways and NOT even as much as thanks came from him.

“I am asking you for your pardon ”“ and that which I know not of, I am asking you also for your forgiveness. I am simple saying thanks for your open arms in my times of need.”

You all have picked up the fake apology. In the past he would listen to me complain about his rude behavior but an apology would never come unless I really demanded it.

Some comments from posters *

*I am sorry to hear that he is being promoted. He must be pretty good at keeping his facade up, and fooling the leaders of this church. Sad”.
(He is the kind of charmer that can have you talking with him in a jiffy. He said the church folks have no evidence on his sex acts. He has a God agenda now so suddenly the old nature is gone ”“ in his twisted mind that is)

*SPECIFIC Regret, remorse, repair. These make up an apology and are missing in this letter.

(He would not know the specifics of an apology even if it hit him in the head.)

*Personally, it seems to me he just wants you to stop being mad at him and go back to giving him the benefit of your company.

(From past experiences I would say that you are quite right, he wants me to stop being mad at him.)

*If he is truly sincere in his repentance, you will see a LASTING change. But, don’t hold your breath because unless it is a miracle of God the change is most likely another try in manipulation.

(His changes normally last for a week or two weeks max and then it is same ole, same ole.)

Thanks to everyone once more. The support is greatly appreciated.

Best regards

God save us from those who think they can not be fooled, that they can spot a lie or a fraud. (EGO!! AHHHHH!) These are the easiest ones of all to dupe. Somebody needs to give them the Screwtape Letters.

When I re-read my comment here, I realized if taken out of context, it sounded critical of Jov77. I should have included what I was referrencing.

It is my experience that when people disclose to church leaders about the exploits of a sociopath, the leaders poopoo the warning, thinking they would know the devil when they meet him. As if the bible doesn’t provide enough example that such thinking is nonsense! I find the most gullible people are the ones who think they can’t be fooled. (The Pastor is under his charm) For those who are Christian, that’s why I recommended giving them the Screwtape Letters…. not that it will do any good because people seem to think it applies to others (similar to warning women that the dude is a cheating fraudster.)

one/joy_step_at_a_time

The letter is ‘word salad’ – an oft observed trait in the speech and writing of spaths.

Hi there jov77, I’m new here, but I thought I’d share what I gleaned from this letter you received. The very first thing he does is reprimand you for making his life difficult. By saying ‘How do you think am gonna make the right choice in life for myself.”- he is essentially telling you that you are inhibiting his ability to grow. Your unwanted advice is prohibiting his success, it seems. I’m guessing you were telling him something truthful and pointing out a character flaw or something to that effect. He also admonishes you for showing affection. So far, he seems to be putting a lot of blame on you to excuse his flaws. As for the ‘apologies’, they are, again, suggesting that you have created these so-called wrong doings in your mind and he is giving a blanket- ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’ type of response. At the end, he may suggest he was not a good friend to you, but he already qualified that decision by pointing out all the un-friendlike things you did to him. And the last thing I’ll add (and then I promise I’m finished) is that I think the disjointed and indecipherable text is quite deliberate. it makes it very difficult for you or anyone to go back and point out anything that he stated definitively. This way, he can always twist his meaning to fit the scenario and say it was not intended a certain way, or more likely, it was misinterpreted by you. I think you will need to keep a safe distance from the tentacles of this one.
Best wishes,
Quinn

yup yup yup. i’d hit the agree with you button if there was one.
blame. leveling. avoidance of responsibility. and vagueness. so vague that it’s all up to interpretation.

Whoa! None of us know Jov77 or his friend from Adam!! People, please stop reading a pathology in every letter/account you read here just because it landed on this site. None of us were flies on the wall of their relationship to bear witness to it; nor do we know the composition of JOv77’s letter. All we have is a letter to read from Jov 77’s source of pain. The letter, itself, sounds responsive to me but sets some boundaries. That’s all I can get from it without knowing directly more.

Quinn,

You are very much on point. Yes I would normally point out his flaws. I guess he could no longer stand how clearly I was able to see behind the mask. I have never given him bad advice.

Thanks Quinn for your contribution. It was awesome.

Regards

I don’t tend to remain in close affiliation much less appreciate a “friend” who “normally points out (his) flaws.” Maybe he just moved on to more enjoyable company, like me.

Anyhow,a rule of thumb in a protest or disagreement is to address eyeball to eyeball, not by letter. You get the satisfaction of knowing whether your complaint was heard (or not) and you are usually restricted from doing a misguided catharsis.

Jov77,

There are so many textbook sociopath like statements in this letter. Red Flags. But the most telling statement was this:

“Knowing right from wrong and claiming that I am serving God and still chose to wrong. I was fooling myself and been a damn idiot; that was why when we spoke I said that I can no longer be fooling myself and others and play games.”

This sounds like a statement he’s heard somewhere or he’s been told. There is no heart wrenching words of how badly he feels for his behavior. Classic sociopath. They are predators that use their position to gain access to victims.

If the man has not been honest with the church and come clean, sincerely apologized to his victim and brought his sin into the light, then he is just projecting onto you what he wants you to believe so that you will be quiet out of guilt from your behavior. Covering his tracks. A sociopath is never warm to those that see them for what they are.

Smart move to stay clear!

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