Editor’s note: The following essay was submitted by Lovefraud reader “Presseject.” This is part two of his story. Part one was posted yesterday.
By Presseject
About two weeks after I confronted my S, there was a very dark day in which I was cut to pieces. I am okay now recalling it, but at that time, and for many weeks afterwards, it was like a knife in the heart. I would like to share a bit further with you the silver lining to this part of the story and how that relates to the good work you have done with the site. You see, it went like this:
I had my S visit and stay with me for my birthday weekend. He presented me with fun gifts and a card that included the words signed with “tons of love.” We had been dating for over six months at that point. (This included all the fun, spontaneous “impulsive” trips and arrangements including our visits to Miami, Key West, Palm Beach, Washington DC, New York City, Toronto, and London Ont.) But… while he was staying with me that last visit on my birthday, I happened to glance over at his laptop and saw a heading in his email program on a received email from what I thought was a dating website. So naturally I questioned it and I was told it was no one he knew, that sometimes he visited the site but wasn’t meeting anyone. A real nice birthday surprise!
After he went back, I found the site, having memorized the name of it in the email heading. To find his profile, I had to create one for myself. Once I did this, I saw he was very active at the site, logging in each day and the profile was marked as “looking for a relationship and/or one-on-one.” This left a sinking feeling in me. I thought we had a relationship, so again I needed to let him know it didn’t sit well with me. To do this though took even greater strength. I remember turning to God in prayer at that point to ask for that strength to find and face the truth, whatever it might be. And this was actually the beginning of my new relationship with God. Together with God’s help I knew I was going to get to the truth (I am still in this quest and I will continue this prayer) but little did I know it would turn my world inside out and leave me without the dream of love and feeling something others have described as being emotionally raped.
The day I after I spoke with him about my feelings about the site and his profile which he said calmly he’d “take into consideration,” he sent three typical friendly emails, pictures of himself with family, links to fun websites, nothing out of the ordinary. That evening though, he called and said it was over. He was going to try to find someone closer to where he lived possibly. He said he couldn’t explain me to his family although oddly, a few months prior, he had introduced me affectionately to each and every one of them! I was stunned and expressed my shock, especially after all the birthday gifts and words of love shared the week before. That sinking feeling was the Titanic going down then. To be discarded so quickly without much of a sound reason was baffling and horrible all at the same time.
Somehow I had the sense (when all seemed like chaos and NO sense) to google “personality disorder” along with the word “relationship” about a week after that. It led to the various sites on narcissism that seemed to give hints at what had just happened. (I learned to do searches excluding the words “Sam,” “Vaknin” and “Malignant” after a while). A close friend soon suggested the idea of a sociopath to me. (I still very much like the description one visitor has offered at Lovefraud of a “sociopath parading as a narcissist”) and it was the descriptions of a sociopath I found at Lovefraud that fit so well with my experience of the shock I had experienced of being “discarded.” But somehow, unlike many of the stories I had been reading, I hadn’t sensed that I had been completely “devalued.” (Discarded yes, but devalued?) That maybe my S was not such an S after all. (Later on I would read many entries in the site about those of us who are left wanting to still find hope in these kinds of situations, the appropriate and helpful reference to the Stockholm syndrome in particular). So I was, at that point, very hurt, very confused and still hopeful that love might still triumph. After all, I had never met someone so “nice” and fun to be with (at the beginning of course) and even after the hurt, it then still seemed worth “fixing.” (Part of me now thinks that having that kind sweet hope alive probably serves to help to cushion the extreme shock of what is plainly a hurtful and illogical abandonment.)
So I rose to the occasion, and again called on God to help back me up. It was at that two week time period after his “gotta go now” quick ending of our relationship that I sent one very kind and considerate email suggesting that perhaps that there had been a misunderstanding, that it seemed a shame to throw away all the fun and passionate friendship we had been enjoying so intently. In return, the next day, I received the most caustic, illogical, insulting and degrading note I have ever read from anyone. All I can say is THANK GOD I had found the Lovefraud.com site the week prior because as this horrible dark experience took such a sinister turn, I knew from reading your site enough to know that part of the equation, (the part that was missing) was the “devalued” part. I had been discarded the week before with not much of an explanation. And sure enough, I then had it in full force in front of me, the “devaluing” part, seething with vile and cold inequity.
His heartless letter was filled with twisted statements about my body that he thought revolted him (odd, since throughout the entire six months I was told over and over how desirable I was!) The rest of it was illogical too, the reasoning seemed childish, trivial and hurtful. But it set me free actually. I had prayed to God for strength and understanding. I had found this, God had indeed helped me to find the tools of understanding and knowledge through your site from experts and through the words of other survivors you have helped. Through reading your site, I was somewhat “protected” when this insane letter was received having been somewhat warned about how a sociopath might behave. It was the most startling realization, painful of course yet on the other hand, all the “pieces” of the puzzle now fit. I really can’t imagine how much worse the pain would have been without the good information I had found at Lovefruad.com. Thank you again for being there! Although it was one of the most damaging emotional things I have ever experienced, Lovefraud has been a real part of the silver lining in getting through this storm. The other part I guess is me… I did the hard part of walking through this and caring for myself enough to get my sanity back.
I can tell you this much too; as others have noted here, friends, ministers, group therapy and other places I have turned to did not quite provide the kind of human compassionate understanding I needed to help me through this over the last three months. I was going through days in which I was strong with my new understandings. Other days I was left trying to find even a shred of what my heart had been or felt like. I knew “no contact” was the only option even though I would still get urges to write and send things (new feelings of forgiveness, anger, or needing justice still surface from time to time.) Learning these kinds of individuals cannot change was also helpful. Over time, the hurt I experienced was less and less about my personal shortcomings (through his hurtful words that I had mistakenly held up against myself only adding fuel to his fire he started). Lovefraud helped initially for me to learn some basics about the behaviors (how to identify a sociopath, etc) \and then went even further to help me regain myself again, to learn this could be the start of a whole new positive change for me and my approach to relationships (which I also learned has been punctuated by somewhat similar encounters although nothing as awful as this last one). I am resolved now to keep seeking the truth in others and in myself. I won’t be so quick to be attracted to those with effortless charm and fearless impulsiveness or selfish motives, no matter how “successful” they might be in other areas of their lives. I have learned about my old pattern of picking out this kind of “successful” person from a crowd. I have learned about my own impulsiveness and (controlling) need to be a caretaker to someone emotionally unavailable. It can work in the short run but not for anything more substantial… like love.
That is where I am heading now, towards love, a shared love, and with luck I will find this. Lovefraud has helped and this is why I have taken time to write here, to express continued gratefulness for all those who make this site so helpful. My words are here for God too, as a prayer to share with Him my gratefulness during this recovery period, for His help and the strength he has given me to rise above the chaos with new insights and compassion for myself. To experience how I am able to take responsibility too for my own welfare, to be an active and (still) loving part in this process. God answered my prayer and I believe He will also answer others who ask and pray. (A higher power can do this, however you come to see this and whatever names you choose to use for it)…
To go one step further, my words here are also a prayer for those that are also, at this very moment, trying hard through very difficult times to find their own understanding and strength. I hope you find it and I hope you are also able to set yourself free from all that is cruel, careless and hurtful. (Please read all you can about this kind of disorder, it really helps to get past the hurt from being left in the dark.) We each have this power within us, it is up to each of us to find it and put it to good use!
Presseject,
Thanks for a very well constucted and honest account of your painful experience. Your insight and understanding will not only help you recover but others here struggling to comprehend the madness of this kind of relationship.
You are now a member of an exclusive club of honest and good people who have survived!
Swallow
Ah, yes, Dorian Grey! The ultimate Psychopath? Narcissist? What? A great book. The movie was okay too. I always wondered why they never did a remake of that great story! I hadn’t thought of that book in years. Thanks for reminding me.
It’s funny though, I have known several VERY (rich) “successful” psychpaths and they seemed to live their lives like Dorian Grey, only they think somehow that their money and power gives them “the fountain of youth” and as they age they seem to get more and more Narcissistic, wanting younger women, more women, etc. like they are terrified that they are losing it as they age, and frustrated that they “can’t take it to the grave with them.” One of them said to me once “Well, money may not buy love, but it can sure rent you some great babes!”
They want to live the “Hugh Hefner” lifestyle till they are 100. That “lifestyle” is held up by the “media” as “success” when it is, in truth, not even the shallowest of shadows of REAL SUCCESS in life.
A mother starved for her brood,
Socrates drinking the hemlock,
Jesus upon the rod,
And the many humble people
who’ve the stony hard pathway trod,
Some call it consecration
Others call it God.
I have no idea who said that, but I memorized it when I was a kid. To me, a good loving life, lived with dignity and love, kindness and caring is much more a “success” than all the education, money, fame or toys in the world can provide.
Powerten and presseject, I can totally relate to what you have written.
It is really a mirror they put and bring out the best and the worst we can possibly be in the deep grounds of our souls and have them stirred thoroughly so we have to rearrange the whole mess and can get use of the useful and discard the useless. I think I have given my P also some lessons and gifts, so I owe him nothing and he ows me nothing. I discovered a skin cancer he was not aware of, and I showed him that paying the bills for his three children from two differen women is an investment in the future and more valuable than inheritage much later. He is not married to either of them. I learned from him to sort out my mess with being “too nice” and being “used” by all kind of sorts of people and I found out about the whole bunch of P,N, and S in my life, patterns, I was wondering my whole life so far and I am willing to change the pattern as I set my boundaries which were lacking completely. VERY USEFUL, but I would not like to repeat THIS class. He also taught me how to wash my hands with a soap bar. I was too much wasting his soap bar. I am a physician who did 1 year in surgery, I KNOW how to wash hands. This was the first sign red flag I remarked about in the second week of our relationship, and I remarked also his complete lack of humour and finding out my ironic tone. He also suggested me to go to a color and style consultant as I did not dress properly in his opinion. I can very nicely draw my boundaries now with the shop ladies when they want to sell me rubbish. VERY GOOD!
It seems a pattern with the birthday, as my birthday was also the point where I said “Stopp” for myself. The weekend before was incredible, a fireworks of things we did together. He was flying in the Piper and exercising emergencies with his instructor. He did some gruesome engine failure on a lake and managed it very well to land the machine, then we went to a cozy hideaway shopping, went to a very good fish restaurant, then saw a very moving film in the cinema, and the night was just amazing. The next weekend was my birthday, and he did not plan ONE thing, and he said as I recalled his great deed in the plane and how proud I was “I do not care who is sitting in the rear when I am flying”. And he sent me home in a very rude way on sunday noon. This was IT! I went into no contact with him for two weeks, and he did not contact me either. After that I had long ago invited him to a theatre play in another city, and we were talking about relationships over the supper (kind of last supper). He told me that his desire of a relationship would be someone to come with him to theatre plays and concerts, providing sex as well, but with no deeper committment (he was very anxious about commitment, and I had to collect all my belongings after each visit, and I had not to wear perfume). Kind of escort service, I presume. Something I have definitely not to offer, and I drew the line again, this time for good. He wanted to come home with me, but I declined and said at the train “The escort girl goes now, never to come back”, and left him standing in front of his coach without looking back. I felt terribly, but proud, like in the theatre, it was definitely not me (or my new “me”). The weeks to come I exspected at least a phone call with a sorry or a bunch of roses or the like, but nothing happened. I felt very sad and devastated. The only thing that kept me from calling him was my Gym teacher who was in a terrible relationship mess himself, and HE was upset by a SMS by his girlfriend. At this time my sister suggested he might be a psychopath and had me look it up at Google. My P sent me a postcard three weeks later that read that he hoped I feel fine and having a good time, he was busy as usual and he would like to contact me again in the future, to do something (theatre, concert), but at the moment he has no motivation to do so. He knows however that he does not want to resume any “love relationship” again. The whole card was a complete “letter to aunt Rose”, and the “” were very upsetting me as he was MY love of my life (so far). I wrote back two lines that I thanked him for his card and that I was not interested any more in any further contact (knowing now how important NC is). My sister saw him two weeks ago at a fair but did not speak to him. Just mentioning him and his very nice children I am very fond of made me feel very sad again. Today I saw him for the first time since the break up end of April 08 (he did not see me though as he was bending over his trunk), my heart was beating, my mood was sinking, I got a very bad temper, and I had one of my worst shopping attacks ever in my life (retail therapy?). In the night I drove by his house, saw a peaceful light and his old car, and said to me that I have no right to worry as I have given him free, and he is free to do what he likes with his life and I am free to do the same. No worry! I AM FREE!!!!
Among the first words I have learnt when I came to England was the difference between “Shit” and “manure”. I will try to look at it as being manure from now on! I wish you all a very nice evening! And thanks a lot for your help and compassion; you all should get payed accordingly as psychotherapists; mine did not have a clue. It was P and my sister and you all who transformed shit into hopefully fertile manure.
Powerten, The “mirroring” you mention is so true. And I appreciate how you have turned this around to remind us all that WE are the loving ones! Being aware of this powerful mirror effect that the P/S uses (since they have nothing deeper to share) takes real insight. It is this same awareness I try to work on each day, since without it, I sink into self-pity, doubt and remorse. (That was my whole afternoon today… I am still trying hard to overcome the hurt. Good days and bad days…) He mirrored so much of me in hindsight. When I laughed he was intrigued, when I was excited, he became excited, when I had ideas for us, he easily went along. I was a tour guide to the exotic land of emotions for him. But they never entered his heart. (knock knock presseject! WHAT HEART!? No skillets please.) This mirroring also occurred when I questioned him about his online activities. I had become disapproving. So, he mirrored this back to me quickly and assumed I was done with him, (enter “S” logic) he would then be done with me and find a much easier victim to work with. End of relationship. (This happened so fast it is was as disorienting as hitting a brick wall). When I look back and am able to apply this basic equation to the relationship, knowing this is the (low) level he operates on, I can dig myself out of the hurt. It has been a a true struggle to see this though. I will try to use your terrific interpretation, your ability to remind yourself of the goodness that is in you, as it seems so helpful. Interestingly, a priest used a mirror with me one day: There was a day a few months ago I went to see a priest without even mentioning the encounter I had just had. He sense I was low and he wanted to help build me up, so he placed me in front of a mirror and asked me to say 10 things I like about myself. I burst into tears. I just couldn’t do it. That was a couple of weeks after this all happened. (He said “we have a lot of work to do…”) I can do it now (slowly). That is a good sign. We have to find these qualities in ourselves. Otherwise they are stolen from us without us even being aware. God… this has hurt. But, Thank God others have opened up here to help me feel less alone in this. Like you, I’ve also identified those in the past I have been hurt by as being N’s or S’s. I had built up each relationship in my mind as having great qualities but it was only myself misleading myself that they were offering more when in fact it was all basically an illusion. I have read this is simply an addiction to unhealthy people. I will, I must, I can break this chain now. Lovefraud and those that help us to heal here are my witnesses! I wish you luck in this too Powerten and am grateful you have shared with us here.
checking in… Henry, your words are very helpful, here and elsewhere in the site. Thanks for warning me about OxDrover’s mighty skillet. Honestly, I can see how a good bonking could be helpful at times. Not that I am one for punishment. (uh.. that was the OLD me…) Is it possible that we have indeed been punishing ourselves so long with those that can’t love us that we have been numb to this? That this recent painful experience is not so much the doing of the S/P, but of our own growth, a self-induced earthquake from years of hidden building pressure? It has to be something like this, otherwise we are playing the victim card.
Letgoletgod and Selena: You are where I was not too long ago. I shudder when I think of the devastation and shock I was feeling. But you are doing the right thing. This is where I came for help and found it… I was quiet about it for three months and finally shared the two letters you have read with Donna Andersen. I can tell you that sharing your words here is also a step in the right direction. You are less alone than you think, I also know that feeling and it really can overwhelm. Keep working through this, others have done it and you will heal in time.
swallow: Thank you. These words are very affirming and I thank you for thinking of me as honest and good. Honesty comes from being truthful… and fortunately, the truth sets us free. (I know the next line here about being pissed off… and I accept that that is part of this painful rebirth!) I also think without love we are nothing, so I will continue to be a loving individual, this can not be robbed from me. But instead of trying so much to please others, I will finally try to be good to myself as well. I think this is the key to staying out of trouble!
powerten: forgot to thank you for the Oscar Wilde reference. and…
Oxdrover, your comment about them wanting to take as much with them as they can makes a lot of sense to me. I saw a very selfish side that was all about seeking thrills, and now that you mention it, it seems like it was also motivated by time running out. (I think that the impulsive aspect is also hardwired into them though, maybe worsening with age as the hourglass empties). It is a blessing to be aware of this now. What you wrote about success is helpful. I am working hard to separate my sense of self worth from the wealthy men I have been “dazzled” by. I would rather be richer in spirit, close to being perfect in being simply imperfect. That alone takes off some of the stress right there!
libelle: I admire how you have grown through your experience. Please be careful though with the credit card, spending has been my weakness too through some of this. My only justification being that clinical therapy might have actually cost more. A good thing I did was get a bigger plan for my cell phone to cover minutes used with help from friends and family. Again, this choice was going to cost less than a therapist. And yes, you are free… we are all free to grow, live and love in healthier ways.
Lovefraud.com: Thank you again (Donna Andersen) for this special place that helps me to become a better person, more gentle with myself, more caring in all aspects of my life, and, less afraid to simply….breathe.
Dear Libelle,
QUOTE: “the difference between shit and manure” Laugh!!!!
That is so true! They give us shit and we can turn it into manure to fertilize our internal emotional gardens with!
We can use it to help ourselves grow and mature into the kind of people that we should be. Loving, good, kind, confident, self assured without being arrogant, and all the attributes that we thought that they had, that we hoped they had, but they didn’t.
presseject – powerten – gang – I am not sure how long you have been reading the post on LF. My (story) is a bit different than most. My (X) (BPD) was not someone I dated or courted in hopes of a longterm relationship. He was an aquaintance. He lived close by in my rural area. He was in a (abusive) six year relationship with his then (BF). My X had me convinced that he was being abused, controlled and mistreated. I never had any romantic feeling’s for (M). One night (M) knock’s on my door and say’s his bf beat him up and kicked him out. i said “you don’t have to go back to that, you can stay here until you figure something out” So begin’s my decent into HELL. So M was down on his luck and needed help and i would of done that regardless of his (disorder) but he started his (dance) and mirrored me and listened very well and became the man of my dream’s. I was hooked. He cheated, lied, manipulated, threatened me, even attempted suicide when I would kick him out. I knew he was evil, I just didn’t have a label for his kind of evil. Yes I am responsible for being a vulnerable lonely 54 year old gay man. I don’t like to admit that i have codependency issue’s, or a pattern of trying to fix people, because admitting that let’s him off the hook. But he was/is 100% certified Physcopath. And yes after the three year encounter of the worst kind, I have had to step back and take a really long hard deep look at myself and my past. And yes my childhood sucked big time. A narcissist mother – an abusuve dad – incest – all the horrible thing’s that i could not deal with, i just swept them under the rug and blocked them out of my mind. Well the truth will set you free – but first it will piss you off. I have grown from this life lesson. i have forgiven the one’s I can and avoid the one’s i can’t. I have re- connected with the universe. And i count my blessing’s every day. I am sure you understand how hopeless it feel’s to possibly ever meet a good decent guy in a culture that is all about sex and youth. So I work on me and love the one’s that love me. I don’t ever want to go down this path again. He met his new (victim) on my computer. I resent that i let (trash) into my life and thought I was in love with it. I resent that he entered my life homeless and pityiful. He didnt have a vehicle or a driver’s license. I helped him fix that. he had horrible teeth I helped him fix that. So now he has moved on to a more prosperous victim. I wish I had left him in the ditch i found him in. i wish I could get him out of my mind. I wish I could forgive myself for being so stupid. But i am better – you should of read my post 6 months ago!!!!!! we do heal it is a long hard life lesson but one we cannot fail……
Presseject,
Thanks for sharing your story with all of us. It’s amazing how similar so many of our stories are. I had always considered myself a strong, smart, independent woman. Then, without even realizing it, my own sense of self was slowly being taken away from me for years and years. How my own husband could have emotionally abused me for years without me really knowing what was going on (although, we all have that little inkling in the back of our minds, don’t we?) I’ll just never understand.
Although I have had NC with him for months, I still get overwhelming feelings of sadness as well as fear sometimes. Fear that I was sleeping with the enemy for so many years. Sadness as to how any human being could do the things he has done. I know, they are not human.
I told him months ago the reason I married him was because he felt like he could do anything; he has no real fear of anything. He just smiled and laughed at that, as he knows it’s true. I consider him to be pure evil. When I am ever in his presence now I can feel the negative energy from him, and it throws me off for quite a while afterwards.
I think of the woman sleeping with him now… she just moved in with him… 16 years younger than he is. She has no idea she is sleeping with the enemy. She is in the idealization phase. I tried to warn her, but it is useless. As someone mentioned here, unless you’ve come face to face with a sociopath, you just can’t understand. And why would someone listen when they are on top of the world, have never felt such “love” before, and are just so grateful that this person came into their lives??
I have attempted to turn to my higher power, and it was very helpful, but I seem unable to get back to that place where I can truly look to God for help. I do try to find the meaning in suffering, but am struggling with that these days.
I just wish none of this happened. I wish I had followed my intuition years ago about this man that I knew was not quite right. If only we could turn back time, and fix all of the wrong turns we’ve made in our lives. We all have our lessons to learn, I guess.
I know they can’t feel real feelings like we can, can’t truly love, and have no empathy, but they sure do put on a good show. They are able to fool everyone around them. It’s tough for the rest of us that are left by the side of the road with no ride, no idea of which direction to go, and no idea of how we even got there.
As Presseject said, we can only go forward, it doesn’t do us any good to go backwards. It’s just hard to keep that forward momentum going sometimes.
Dear Almost_free,
Growing up on a farm at when I was little still used animal power for plowing and had a lot of livestock, I think I understand in some ways the analogies that were used in the Bible to instruct some of those people. Jesus said that when a man puts his hand to the plow and LOOKS BACK he is unable to plow correctly. HE MUST LOOK FORWARD. It is so true in so many areas of our lives.
We can sit down and look back and see how straight our rows are, but we CAN NOT go forward and look back with that plow in our hands or we will “PLOW CROOKED”—there are times to sit down and look back at our lives, but if we intend to MOVE, we have to look FORWARD.
When you are plowing a row, you pick a point on the distant horizon (a goal, a star, something to guide you toward) and you head for that, and your row will be straight. You head for that goal and you will go the right direction with few bobbles along the way. If you take your eyes off the goal, you will weave and waver.
There is nothing wrong with sitting down from time to time and looking back, or to sit and think, or decide on a goal, but once you are up and moving, NEVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE GOAL.
“the saddest words of tongue or pen–it might have been”
It is so true that what we thought we had with them was wonderful, but it wasn’t TRUE, it wasn’t GOOD, and it was only HALF OF A LOVE—our half, not theirs.
Yea, we all “slept with the enemy” but at the same time, we are now FREE, and sitting down ALL the time isn’t going to get our “field plowed” and we have our plows sharpened, our goals on the horizon and we’re on our way. I too wish I hadn’t wasted so much of my life trying to fix a problem that couldn’t be fixed, but I don’t have that “problem(s)” in my life any more, THEY ARE GONE–and I am so glad and thankful now. They took with them every nasty dirty thing in my life with them—THEMSELVES.
There isn’t a thing in the world in the way of “problems” that can’t be handled, solved or accepted as long as there isn’t a Psychopath involved with it. Flat tires, floods, broken crockery, bills to pay, —whatever that problem is, it is just LIFE, but without the psychopath to stab you, kick your feet out from under you, hurt you, devalue you, you can focus on fixing LIFE’S PROBLEMS and just move on. Things are so much more easily handled if you aren’t also dealing with a P.
Have a flat tire on the way to work? NO BIG PROBLEM. Change the tire. Spare flat too? Call the AAA–etc. NO BIG DEAL. Inconvenience? Yep! But NO BIG PROBLEM. You no longer have to go home and listen to what an idiot you are for having a flat tire. Bank statement won’t balance? Keep plugging, you can get it…no big deal…they are not there to have written 15 checks that they lied to you about, and they aren’t there to tell you that you are stupid because 2+2 doesn’t equal 5. HEY, COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS, YOU ARE P-FREE!!!! ((((hugs))))
saw a colleague today i hadn’t seen since june (when my s/p was in the final stages of destroying the last vestiges of my self-esteem and our relationship). she saw me and instantly said, “hey, i didn’t even recognize you … your eyes look so … ALIVE!”
so … not having that leech sucking off my boobs 24/7 has already made an impact in the reawakening of my spirit!
NC is the key. at first i never thought i could do it, but i have. one month now.
hang in there everyone. if i can do it (after a 20 yr relationship with lucifer himself) … so can all y’all!
thank you ALL for helping in the healing!
TOWANDA!!!