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By | July 10, 2010 151 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: The long grift

Editor’s note: The following story was received from a reader who we’ll call “Violet.”

I knew L when we worked together at a call centre as customer service representatives. He seemed nice, and he had lovely, expressive brown eyes and a gentle nature. I was losing weight at the time, and he asked for my help, so of course I gave him advice and tips. He began to lose weight, and he invited me over to his and his girlfriend, M’s, apartment for dinner and to show him some ‘exercise moves’ (now I think it was mostly an excuse to ogle me). He looked at me very intently, it wasn’t menacing, but I definitely felt like he wanted to do more than just watch me.

At work he would call me over sometimes and tell me that he thought of me as a ‘really good friend.’ I would thank him, but I thought it was a strange thing to say because we didn’t know each other very well. The call centre was a gossip mill, and someone had told me that L and his girlfriend were into threesomes. That’s not my thing, but I don’t judge, and I didn’t think much of it at the time. I also got in touch with an old friend that had known L and M at another call centre. She told me that L had asked her to be in a threesome. She politely declined, but the incident got him fired (he eventually told me this). Again, I didn’t think much about it, but I did think that it was a bit careless to ask a co-worker to have sex with you and your girlfriend, to say the least.

I left work to go back to school, and I would get e-mails from him every so often. I would send a polite reply. Last year, he and his girlfriend moved to my city so she could go to school, and L and I went out for dinner. It was at this time that I realized that he liked me as more than a friend, so I decided to find out what kind of relationship he had with M. He told me it was open, and that M said that he could do whatever he wanted as long as he never left her. That didn’t seem very open to me, but I figured it was an arrangement that worked for them.

Friends with benefits

He said he wanted a ‘friends with benefits’ relationship with me. But he would lay on the sweet talk really thick. He would say I was a beautiful white dove with eyes of light, that when he thought about me he didn’t want a cigarette, I was a copy of Eve, I was Aphrodite, I was even an angel. But we still didn’t know each other that well, and his compliments were too dime store romance novel for my taste, although they made me feel good about myself.

I tried to get to know him better. I knew that his father had died, but he didn’t talk about him much, which I found odd, but I chalked it up to masculine reserve (we always find an excuse, don’t we?). He had wanted to be a minister, and had been in a Master’s program, but he gave me a vague answer about why he dropped out. I thought it was strange that someone who desired a religious vocation would be content drifting to various call centre jobs for the past ten years. He also never had any ideas for activities, I always had to make suggestions, and it seemed like he relied on other people for entertainment because he didn’t know how to entertain himself. It was as if he had no inner life.

He would also look at me with such (I thought at the time) longing it was unnerving, but now I think it was also a predatory gaze. At one point the sweet talk was too intense and I told him to tone it down. He seemed so sad after that, he said he was patient, but he said he was patient a lot, and that bothered me. He was always online and he messaged me constantly to see how I was doing. There were red flags waving at me, but I thought he was very sweet and attentive, and he seemed like he desperately needed a friend and some affection. Once I decided I could ignore his lack of ambition and it was only a friends with benefits relationship that wasn’t going to go anywhere anyway, I let him know that I wanted to be intimate with him. That part was very nice (I’ve noticed that other writers on the site mention that the sex is often good). Our sexual relationship lasted for three months.

Open relationship?

L seemed to really like me, but he could only see me when M was away, he told me she was seeing her girlfriend on the side (she was bisexual, he said). If it was really open, I wondered, then why can he only see me when she’s somewhere else? The only time L spent the night with me was a weekend M was away. He spent one night at my house, and he didn’t call her, she thought he had died, he told me. The next night, I went to their apartment and L called her while I was there, but he didn’t mention that I was in the apartment with him. He wanted me to sleep with him in their bed.

By this time he had started complaining to me about M, and I was beginning to hate her (I never thought that way about her before, she seemed nice, but very depressed). But I couldn’t sleep in their bed, it seemed like too great a violation of their relationship, so I made an excuse and left. I think that he didn’t want to be alone when M was gone, and any warm body would do. Once we started having sex, L talked to me online less and less, sometimes just sending a ‘check-in’ e-mail. I felt like I was being used, that I was giving him something M couldn’t, because he told me they hadn’t had sex in a long time. That didn’t bother me much until I realized I wanted an actual boyfriend, and it couldn’t be him because he would never leave M, and we weren’t compatible anyway.

At this time I made plans to meet him but he couldn’t because he was in a tight financial spot, so I said we shouldn’t make plans until his money situation improved. (Also, he told me that his sisters gave him some money but had turned him down when he asked for more, he then asked me for $20-$30, which I thought was in bad taste so I said no, my refusal and his lack of money didn’t seem to bother him very much.) He e-mailed me back saying that he agreed we should wait until he had more money, but then he said I was the most important thing in his life and he didn’t want to lose me. At first, I was flattered, but then I really thought about what he said. How could I be the most important thing in his life when he barely talks to me and he’s living with another woman? It defied all logic. If I saw red flags before, I was hearing sirens now, too.

Break-up e-mail

After a lot of deliberation, I sent him an e-mail (we rarely spoke on the phone, which also bothered me, if he liked me so much, wouldn’t he want to talk to me more often?) telling him I wanted an actual boyfriend, I felt like I was being used, and that being with me would not fix the problems he has with M. I was harsh, but I told the truth. I had hoped he would apologize and we could go back to being friends, or at least end on good terms. A few hours later I get an e-mail from M, telling me that they had been together for over ten years (he never told me that), that she loves him (he told me that they were together mostly to split cost of living, and that he thought no one cared about him) and that our friends with benefits relationship never happened, because if it did ”˜he would have told me.’

I was devastated. He had lied to me and to the woman he presumably loves and has been with for over a decade. I have tried to piece together what may have happened. From what M wrote, he probably read my e-mail, and he was afraid I would tell M what we did (I never would have told her, he made me think she was a bad person), he most likely told her I had a ”˜crazy idea’ that we had had sex, and that I wanted them to break up. He probably made me sound delusional. Maybe he even suggested that she write me an e-mail to ”˜set me straight.’ She ended her e-mail with ”˜If you want a boyfriend, I suggest you find someone single.’ I never replied to her, but I did send him another e-mail that said I was removing him from my facebook profile and blocking his e-mail. I haven’t contacted him since, and he hasn’t tried to talk to me.

The girlfriend didn’t know

It was at this point that I realized that M had no idea that L had visited me many times at my house. She thinks we only went to dinner once or twice and went for a few walks. I also realized that I thought M was a horrible person based on what L told me. I once went to their apartment and while he was in another room taking a phone call, she showed me family pictures; it seemed like she really loves and cares about L and his family. L once told me he thought M and I were a lot alike. He cited our love for animals, but I think it was really because we’re both nice, decent girls with shaky self-esteem, and he thought he could use me for sex, and he uses M because she gives him some semblance of a normal family life, and does things like cook for him.

I don’t know how much he even liked me, I think he got off on the thrill of deceiving M, and he thought I would be a willing partner because I like to believe I’m a free thinker and being in an open relationship intrigued me. Although I was raw for about a week, and I wondered if he had lied to me about everything (did he really think I was beautiful?), talking to my friends about what happened has helped me a lot. My roommate has since told that me he never liked L, because when they spoke he thought L was subtly trying to bend him to his will, and he reminded him of his ex, who was abusive and had tried to kill him. It was then that I started thinking that L was a psychopath, and I found the Love Fraud website. I’m not sure if L is a total psychopath, but his ability to lie to his long-time girlfriend and using her to hurt me makes me think he has enough of those awful traits to be dangerous.

I realize that I loved L, but actually, I loved a fantasy; a sweet man caught in an open but troubled relationship he felt he couldn’t leave, and he made me feel like I was wonderful for showing him so much affection and understanding. I am getting over the illusion, but I worry about M, who is still trapped in his dreamland. Maybe she really is rotten, and maybe they deserve each other, but I can’t imagine what he’s done to her over the years. I believe he played the ”˜wounded bird’ routine with me when it is really M who is abused in the relationship.

I worry he might try to hurt her, or someone else he gets involved with. I want to contact her to tell her my side of the story, but I know she will only think that I’m crazy, and if she questions him, he’ll twist my words around to his benefit. I’m trying hard to let that urge to contact her go. Unfortunately, she will have to figure it out for herself, because psychopaths are good liars, but they’re not that good. His mask will slip eventually. I don’t worry that he will contact me again, as other psychopathic exes on this site have done, because he knows that I can no longer be manipulated. I’m sure he has moved on and doesn’t even think about me.

Psychopathy

The funny/sad thing is that I have a degree in psychology, and I specialized in abnormal psychology. I’ve read a great deal of the literature on psychopathy, and one of my professors even worked with Dr. Robert Hare. I was fooled, and I feel foolish. Despite friends who know both L and I telling me it was a bad idea to go out with him, despite knowing he had hit on other girls, I went out with him anyway. L seemed so sincere, but the more I thought about the odd intensity of his words and actions, and how they didn’t match up, something told me it wasn’t right. I could never get those little red flags to stop waving in my head. But I think I had to figure that out for myself.

I consider myself lucky that I was the ”˜Other Woman’ and not in M’s position, I couldn’t imagine ten years with him. I hope M finds peace and happiness, and as for L, I don’t think he will ever know what love feels like, because psychopaths are a different species, I don’t think they are completely human. Some people on this website describe them as ”˜broken,’ but psychopaths were never functioning to begin with. They can’t change, but we can teach ourselves and others their tricks and avoid them as much as possible, and that’s empowering.

I’m sure that there are other psychopaths who are using the open relationship model to lure partners who could never be with a cheater. An open relationship is a perfect cover for a psychopath; because often, the secondary partner isn’t integrated into their lives like the primary partner is, and their family and friends often don’t know it’s open. L’s family didn’t know, and although I wanted to meet his family and friends and vice versa, I knew I couldn’t as the secondary partner. If I had, maybe I would have figured out something was wrong, sooner.

In hindsight, I should have never have taken L’s word that M was okay with an open relationship, I should have asked her directly (as awkward as that would have been), but I’m sure he would have made an excuse as to why she didn’t want to talk about it. I came out of the ”˜relationship’ with L relatively unscathed, and what I have taken away from my experience is: don’t feel bad for trusting people every once in a while. We’ve all trusted people before and it turned out well, and it will again. I’m not jaded, but I’m definitely wiser. I think these lyrics sum up my experience best:

I’m just another john you gypped
another sucker stiffed
A walk on role in the script
to your long, long grift
The love that had me in your grip
was just a long, long grift

”˜Long Grift,’ from Hedwig and the Angry Inch


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Dani S

Dear Violet,
It doesn’t matter what degree you have, Psychopaths have a way of getting what they want from whom ever they choose. And the fact that you are intelligent makes you even more appealing and more challenging and more inciting.
It is only a game!

The S I thought I knew so well once, never had a stupid girlfriend nor a unattractive one, and there were many.
I understand your concern with the girlfriend but as you said, they can’t hide forever! and she is there for what ever lesson she needs to learn.

I remember saying to my ex husband’s ex girlfriend ” why didn’t you tell me” and she said ” because you would not have listened”. And she was right, I would not have listened because I was too busy listening to him. I would have defended him over anything because I believed him, I believed in the illusion he was offering.

As hard as it is, just pat your self on the back for wising up to this man before you became to damaged by his actions. Yes you were a lucky one, as you are not M and there are many M’s even on this site and their journey to reclaim there lives back is extremely difficult and sometimes a very long,hard and sad process.

Now you are not only book taught on psychology, you have experienced the true nature of these people which is invaluable if psychology becomes your profession.

Not only an open relationship these people will come up with any story and if that story works once they will use it forever and they get even better at the story every time.

All the very best wishes and thank you for your story!

HeatherA

Hi Dani S,
I am Violet, I registered before my story was published, but Violet is a good pseudonym! Thank you for your response. The articles and responses on this site have been so helpful. I am slowly starting to realize that I can’t take what happened to me personally.

But still, I hear a voice in my head that asks “What if you’re wrong?” Maybe I was too harsh in the e-mail, and it really hurt his feelings, and he lied to M to get back at me. But then I think, if he truly cared about me like he said he did, he would try to get in touch with me. I think he might try, but only if he gets bored. I have established NO CONTACT from the beginning, with him and anyone around him, including M.

Despite the No Contact rule, I desperately want to tell M my side of the story, but I know that won’t help anyone at this point. All I can do is pray that she sees his true face and gets out. I sincerely hope he is not capable of physical violence, I see him as more of a ‘gentle’ psychopath, who pretends to be sweet and good, but they can be just as devastating as the brutal kind.

Yes, my psychology training did not prepare me for meeting a psychopath face-to-face. The utter banality of it all was truly chilling, he’s just a guy, living his life. One thing I have learned is that they seem too good to be true in the beginning, but often the brightest light casts the darkest shadow.

Thanks again!

Rosa

Hi Heather:

You say:

“I sincerely hope he is not capable of physical violence, I see him as more of a ’gentle’ psychopath, who pretends to be sweet and good, but they can be just as devastating as the brutal kind.”

From what I’ve seen, psychopaths show their most brutal side when they are threatened by someone or something.

Maybe this man, L, was not threatened enough by you for you to see his darkest side.
In fact, it sounds like his life was not affected at all by his relationship with you.
As I understand it, he’s still with M, and his life is going on without consequences.
So, there is no reason for him to be upset, from what I’ve read in the story above.

If this man is a psychopath, he’s got a brutal side.
Just because you have not seen physical violence from him does not mean he is not capable of it.

You even state yourself in the article, “I worry he might try to hurt her, or someone else he gets involved with.”

You would not have said something like this if you did not feel that this was a dangerous man.

I think you are doing the right thing in not warning M.
It will fall on deaf ears, and you will end up being persecuted.
She will have to figure it out on her own.

I am glad you are out of this dysfunctional situation.

Ox Drover

Dear Heather,

You are not the first (and unfortunately, won’t be the last) smart and psychologically educated person to be sucked in by a psychopath. They are so good at what they do.

Thanks for sharing your story. Just stay on the healing path about your recovery from this P-event in your life. It starts out in learning about them, but ends up in learning about us, why we let them in in spite of the RED FLAGS. We learn to honor ourselves and not be hooked into their games.

I think Rosa is right, I think you DO detect some violence in this man, and I think you are right, even the most benign of them can be violent when they are thwarted. I also think that no amount of warning you could do will make that woman believe you, she is in the FOG with him and can’t see where he is going. I do feel sorry for her, but she, like us all, must find her own way out of the FOG into reality. Some people never make it out. I am glad, though, that as tough as it has been that you did make it out of the fog, and are learning a valuable lesson for the future. For YOUR future! God bless.

Dani S

Dear Heather,
Violet is good pseudonym! I know it is hard not to tell your story to M but trust us it is not worth it, it will most probably only cause you grief that you do not need! M may already know what L is like and for what ever reason is staying.
Aslo trust us if you sensed that he maybe violent, good chance you gut was giving you the correct messages.

My ex was never violent when we were dating! After we were married I noticed he had uncontrollable outbursts of rage but never physically hurt me but after a few years of marriage the violence started and he physically hurt me many times and the last time knocked me out whilst holding our baby.

I am not surprised you had not seen a violent side and if you sensed one that is enough. You cant go against your gut feelings just to check if they were right or not because you will usually find that your gut was right. That is why we were giving that most amazing sensory within ourselves, unfortunately the people that come unstuck in life are the ones like myself that ignored those feelings. You are doing exactly the right thing, No Contact, No Contact and keep it that way! You will soon find someone that doesn’t have to justify why he is living with another women! 🙂

HeatherA

Hi Rosa, OxDrover, and Dani S,
I think you’re right that he might have the capacity for violence, I though maybe I was overreacting but I know now that I have to trust my gut. I’m realizing that someone capable of emotional violence could easily be physically violent as well. I e-mailed a professor about whether I have any responsibility to tell M, and she said L most likely doesn’t see me as a threat, but if I did contact M and she left as a result, he might come after me. Yet another reason for No Contact. I also e-mailed my prof who worked with Dr. Robert Hare (Dr. Steve Porter) about this. He’s on vacation, so I’m awaiting a response at the end of the month.

I’m seeing more and more that M is fairly isolated. She has been with him since she was 18 or 19, she’s 29 now. She is not very worldly. She has contact with her (not well) parents and his family, and they share most of their friends. They worked together at the call center, now they both work from home. She doesn’t drive, or take public transit, I don’t think she even walks much because she is obese and isn’t well. Maybe that’s how he wants it.

L asked my friend to be in a threesome with them, saying that it was M’s idea, but was it, really? I have read about projection on this site, where the psychopath accuses others of things that the psychopath has actually done. L told me that M once woke him up and demanded sex, which I found strange. You don’t really hear about women doing that, and she is also depressed, usually that’s a sex drive killer. Maybe it was he who demanded sex. He was impulsive in that area, or he was with me, at least. He wanted to have sex with me in public places.

Again, thank you for all your insight. I am praying for M, and everyone affected by psychopaths.
Heather

bluejay

HeatherA,

The psychopath’s thinking is totally twisted, that’s for sure, negatively affecting anyone who is closely involved with them.

Ox Drover

Dear Heather,

Yes, they do project—and LIE. You tell when they are lying because their mouths are open. She is obviously his captive and he probably does like it that way. He may have said he wanted a “3-some” or that she did, but was probably getting her to agree to the 3-some, then MINUS the other one so it would just be the 2 of them.

One of the things about Ps is that they are “sexual” but there is No “bonding” with sex. It isn’t even about being straight or gay, or bi-sexual, it is just SEX with anyone/anything/anytime. It is an animal act, not an act of intimacy in any way. In fact, many animals have more intimacy with copulation than Ps do.

It is ALL about THEM and what they want, when they want it, how they want it. SUPPLY for them.

Buttons

HeatherA, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with the spath.

The interesting thing is that we assume that they “like” something about us and it’s such a scam. The only thing that the spath “likes” is the pursuit and conquering of another human being, whether it’s in a physical capacity or platonic relationship. There’s only one side of the spath story, and that’s THEIR side. All other truth is simply dismissed because the Spath World has only one resident, and that’s the spath. Their rules apply and can be altered without notice according to their wants.

Bless your heart, HeatherA. By sharing your experiences, others who haven’t yet figured it out may begin to see the truth of their situation. The poor girlfriend, M, probably feels beyond stuck, at this point – what a shame.

Brightest blessings to you!

silvermoon

I had the chance to meet his legal wife and was amazed at how alike we are in many ways, you could describe us to someone and the description would fit either individual who was presented. Talk about targeting!

The other thing that seemed remarkable is that not once, but twice, he was promised forever by women who loved him and had he put a portion of the effort into either relationship that he put into defiling them both, he’d have “had it all”.

And instead and because of his own stupidity, addictions, afflictions and disorders, he is in prison.

The sad story ahead is enough to choke a dragon but this is the reality of being unrecoverable. The reality of the disorder has its own HEll. And I am sorry to know that is what it is and that there is nothing I can or will do.

Because what is true is true.

I guess in a weird way, he got what he wanted but it is unfathomable because of the unfeeling and corrupted logic of the whole thing.

I think it must be compelling to want to feel what you hear others do and not be able to. I can imagine that drives a lot of weird behavior. But I bet he gets a lot of what he wants in the setting where he is – he doesn’t have much to do, or responsibility. He can lie all he wants because it doesn’t mean anything to anyone. And the rest? Well, we know what happens.

But I look at it now like the wake from a boat – when you look back toward the shore, it has all settled down and disappeared. The chapter is ended.

Its all about ME now. Hmm. Did I learn tht trick from the insult? Naah. It was there all along. He was just a blip….

Buttons

{{{Silvermoon}}} It takes a lot of work to get where you are! AWESOME!!!!!

Brightest blessings!!!

HeatherA

Hi everyone,
Thank you again for your comments! It’s such a frustrating feeling, to know the truth, but you’re not able to tell anyone because you know no one will believe you. It’s like we are all Cassandra from the Greek myth.

However, I sometimes wonder if I’m indulging myself in a paranoid fantasy. I’ve never been involved in an affair before, is the way he acted really any different from a ‘normal’ man? Don’t some men lie to get sex? Wouldn’t he lie and that deny that anything happened to his partner if he thought his mistress was going to tell her everything? Still, that doesn’t explain the overall vibe that I and other people got from him. I called my story ‘The Long Grift’ because although we were only ‘together’ for three months, I now believe he was grooming me for sex for about 3 years, since I met him.

I wanted to tell my story because I had a rather ‘light’ relationship with a psychopath, but even then, I got burned rather badly. I had to excuse a lot of things he said and did to go out with him, because it was just going to be a fling, so what did it matter if he put his partner down, or he looked at me too intensely? I hope I can dissuade others from having a fling with someone who doesn’t seem ‘quite right.’
Blessings to you all!
Heather

Buttons

HeatherA, my personal feeling is that I will not excuse anyone lying to get sex, or anything else.

The 3-year pursuit was probably the most envigorating for the spath…throwing out that bait, and reeling in the line, ever so gently. Playing that bait until…….SNAP! The bait’s finally taken!

To a spath, everything is just a fling – committment is meaningless, unless the question of the target’s committment comes into play. It’s all a game, down to the intense, predatory stare.

I think it is important to NOT minimize your experience with the spath, HeatherA. It could have gone on longer with many more ramifications, certainly, but your core values were shaken and the trauma is no less of an experience than those who have been involved for years. It’s all relative when it comes down to the healing process – we’re ALL healing from our experiences, whether they were long, or short-term exposures.

Brightest blessings!

Wini

HeatherA, I am so glad you brought this topic up. Too many people fall under the old myth, that in order to become a man, you must test the waters … so to speak. It’s “suppose” to be normal (the double standard) for boys to get sexual experience, another notch for their bed post prior to settling down, raising a family with one partner in marriage (thanks to the biggest anti-social boob, Hugh, stay eternally young and selfish, self centered, self absorbed Hefner who made billions exploiting others. Girls are suppose to be virgins as they walk down the isle. Save themselves for their future husbands. Then the sexual explosion burst on the scene back in the 1960s. Free love aka free sex. Women, don’t save yourself for a future husband, save yourself now and let us break your very fiber that makes you who you are. Break any and all taboos that society has. Anti-establishment. Go against everything your parents and their parents before them and so on and so forth … were/are all about. Don’t cheat yourself. Don’t stifle yourself, it’s your life, go for the gusto. Don’t hold back and certainly do not reach for that brass ring. It was the freeing the hang-ups of society which opened the doors wide open for all anti-social personalities to rear their ugly heads and walk among us so no one would be the wiser. Society had to look beyond the passion of this generation to dig deep and gather more information on that anti-social personality before they could make a move … because they now lived so freely amongst the masses of innocent, non violent, non manipulative individuals expressing themselves. Most of this generation had no concept of what these cold, heartless creatures were and still are all about.

It has taken 40 years to figure out who will never grow up and who was brainwashed by this free environment mentality. Many anti-social personalities (e.g. Charles Manson for one) used their sociopathic manipulation techniques for their own agenda as they smiled to everyone’s faces preaching FREE LOVE, PEACE, and HARMONY, but, sadly, were anything but what they preached. Prior to the 60s explosion it was easier to detect the anti-social personalities that walked among society. They stuck out like sore thumbs. Everyone got them. They couldn’t hide. The 60s generations of going against society norms is the reason why we have the “political correct nonsense of today” …hence, making it mandatory to ignore RED FLAGS because you are judging. It’s your problem, not theirs. Never theirs. They’ve had a free pass for over 40 years as they continue to blatantly roar their ugly faces right in front of us. Still, don’t be judgmental … don’t be uptight … go with the flow … be open, let your guard down … loosen up to allow a sociopath do as they please, whenever they please … with you and everyone. What they want is to take advantage of you and everyone that comes in their path to get their own way, whatever that way of wanting is.

To this day, we will always get the “what is wrong with you … lighten up, go with the flow or you’re the bad guy/gal that is rocking the boat” … The spot light is blaring on you that there is something majorlly wrong with you, not the person you are pointing out. Blame their bad behavior on you, not put the blame on them. Where it belongs. Don’t ever oust that anti-social personality or you will be destroyed. Don’t ever scream “this person is a MONSTER”.

Peace to you HeatherA. Stay with us and read as much as you can to help you help yourself of being duped by the greatest con society has ever witnessed.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

first thing first violet – i love hedwig.

your post made me well up. a couple of things: ‘a sweet man trapped’…

and the cover of open relationships – i call it ‘weird hides odd.’
the spath of my acquaintance had so many extremely weird things the made up story she told me, that i was kept hopping dealing with them, and it was MUCH harder to see the ‘oddness’.

she also pitted people against each other. i suspect that she is telling people she had to fake die because i was trying to steal her money. she told me all kinds of things negative about others trying to control her – trying to rile me up and rush to her defense. I now believe that she was doing the same thing with them. she also tried, continually to get me to fight with her bf – (who was actually her – but that is another story) it was this lying about what other people were to her that made my heart start to ache. I had access to a online community where those folks were. i could not longer go there because of how my heart felt. – this was my real sign that something was very not right.

10 weeks later she fake died. 5 weeks after that she fake resurrected, which means i am 8 months nc. I wish i felt freer than i do; there is still so much work to do. but i have made progress. the first months were hellish. truly hellish. i felt like i was in a fun house full of maimed and dangerous demons. now, i am angry and am starting to access some of the pain i am left with. it’s extensive.

Ox Drover

Heather,

You know it is almost laughable if it weren’t so “sad” that we are looked at as the KOOKS and the nut jobs when in fact, we are the ONLY ones in the situation telling the TRUTH!

I have said all along that more people would believe us if we were trying to convince people that we had been abducted by alien space ships than that we had met EVIL IN HUMAN FORM! It is sad really, and I think many people don’t want to believe evil really exists because it would be way TOO SCARY and they wouldn’t feel nearly as safe in their own little fantasy land as they do believing “there’s good in everyone deep down” and “everyone can change if you love them enough” and all the rest of the carp that we are taught as children.

Oh, and “it’s not really his fault he was abused as a boy!” “He just needs love and understanding” oh, yea! Right!!!!! And pigs can fly and unicorns are sweet and fairies bring money for kids teeth!

It is sad that we had to learn the hard way but that is the lesson you honor the most, because you PAID TUITION ON THAT CLASS and you learned the lesson. I paid the tuition and attended the classes SEVERAL TIMES before I GOT IT but you got it much earlier. No one hurts “more” or “less” we all hurt TOTALLY but getting the lesson and keeping it is the best gift the universe can give us.

HeatherA

Hi OxDrover,
You’re right about getting an education. It’s bitter knowledge, to be sure, but I am glad I got it. However, I still wonder if the way he reacted is the way any (cowardly) man would act if he thought his mistress was going to blow his cover. Then I think, even if I remove the affair, he was still ‘off.’ Anyway, I’m waiting to see what my old professor says about the situation. I have a few relatives in law enforcement, I think I will ask their opinion, too.
Thanks so much!

Buttons

OxD, you’ve hit the nail on the proverbial head. People cannot bring themselves to accept that human beings are soul-less or deliberately cruel. And, excusing someone’s behavior on their childhood makes my skin crawl – I did the same stinking thing with the ex spath, and it only served to give him license to perpetrate whatever he wanted to get whatever he wanted for himself. He could not reciprocate concern, love, or empathy, and it took many years and two children before I “got it.” And, like OxD, I had a number of lessons to learn with other spaths AFTER the ex spath. Each experience was painful, and one did not diminish the validity of the others.

Sort of off-topic………I’m reading this book, and the author has quoted a number of “alienists” who attended the Chicago World’s Fair serial killer, H.H. Holmes in the late 1800’s. He was a prolific killer and incredible charmer. Men and women were made to feel “special” if he paid them attention. And, his demeanor was always one of calm, cool, self-assuredness and he never seemed to deviate from that demeanor, ever. He was able to mirror an empathetic response, down to getting misty-eyed and used exaggerated body language to amplify the expected/required reactions or responses.

“Psychopathy” was a term that was used as early as 1885 to describe someone in this manner: “…Beside his own person and his own interests, nothing is sacred to the psychopath…”

Hervey Cleckly described the psychopath as: “…a subtly constructed reflex machine which can mimic the human personality perfectly …. So perfect is his reproduction of a whole and normal man that no one who examines him in a clinical setting can point out in scientific or objective terms why, or how, he is not real.”

Holmes was described as an extremely attractive man with piercing blue eyes that always locked with whomever he was engaged with. Some found the intensity of his gaze to be overwhelming, but most people (particularly women) were mezmerized by this intense gaze – the predatory stare, we now know it to be. He was “charming” and appeared affluent and successful – most of his business dealings were conducted on credit, which he never meant to pay back, and didn’t. His victims were drawn in by his attentiveness and he would use human touch to put his victims “at ease.”

Obviously, sociopathy has been around since mankind walked upright (Caine & Abel) and I wonder how and why it seems to be more rampant, today, than it ever was in the past. Even children and teenagers are displaying an alarming absence of empathy on the average – they are FAR more mean-spirited than I can ever remember my peers being as a child.

Buttons

HeatherA, with regard to the spath’s reactions, reading over some of the personal experiences on these blogs confirms one thing to me: each, and every spath follows a predictable path, though they may each employ unique scams.

As a Survivor, your wisdom will kick in the next time someone attempts to use the same tactics that the spath did over that 3-year period. The big quiz will come if you’re unfortunate enough to run up onto a female spath! THAT was an incredible lesson for me! LOL

Brightest blessings!

Dani S

Dear Heather,
In regards to feeling confused on weather to enlighten M on the L just keep in mind are you doing it for concern or revenge for being duped or both? because for any reason if you are dealing with a spath it will most probably come back and bite you on the behind harder than the initial affair with L has.
A spath will likely turn around and tell L that you have been hitting on him for years and you wont get the message and take no for an answer and you are mentally unsound and you are just trying to break them up because you want him or he rejected your advances!

The way they twist things are truly amazing especially if someone is trying to sabotage his relationship with M his number one tool! Be really careful because if you start stoking a spath fire with gasoline you will be the only one getting further burnt! You need to move on from both of them. As hard as it is you cant save M, she at this point of time might not want to be saved or know the truth and if she finds out the truth, it may not change anything anyway.

If she has little confidence it is just the thing that may make her stay as she may feel undeserving of L’s love as he may say well you never give it to me or you don’t look after yourself anymore, don’t underestimate there ability to make everything they do seem like someone else’s fault 🙂 and as Buttons says about sex and lying, honestly if any man has a story or lies about sex are they really men that you would want in your life for any length of time? I found out No! Just worry about yourself healing from your experience. I am glad you don’t sound impulsive because time will give you much more clarity. All the very best 🙂

behind_blue_eyes

I agree with Dani S. “Enlightening” M won’t do any good; deep-down, she knows anyway and just looks the other way, like so many others do. I also agree such an action implies jealousy or revenge more than concern for M’s well-being.

Dani S

HI Buttons, hope you have been well! it sounds like an interested read you have come cross. It is definitely an interesting subject you have bought up about it appearing to be more rampant these days and children seem to be more mean spirited! I believe there are many contributing factors in this including break downs of family units and largely the media. I believe Empathy is born but manly taught. My middle daughter loves watching the Disney Channel but I must say she was watching Hannah Montana the other day and I couldn’t believe the talk to the hand, disrespect the kids in the show had over the adult. Gee Disney is a little different from when I was a kid and that was just a small, silly example.

Dani S

behind blue eyes you are right, even if it is the best intentions it will always look like it isn’t that way and can so easily be twisted. I think most of us feel vengeful when we have been hurt and humiliated by a spath and I know it is hard to walk away from those feelings but time makes it easier! 🙂

Buttons

Hi, Dani S! I’m doing well and moving right along. 😉

I agree that the breakdown of family has contributed, but also this need for greed. When both parents are working to pay for WANTS rather than NEEDS, the majority of these children are policing themselves. Rather than healthy interactions with human beings on a face-to-face basis, they are communicating via technology.

For instance, I’ve “met” people online (even on this blog) who would never, in a million years, behave in Real Life in the manner that they do under the cloak of anonymity provided by the internet. Such behaviors would normally be outed in a community setting, and the jerk would be either ignored, duly chastised, or driven out of town for some of the things that people perpetrate in Online Life.

Personally, I am so grateful that I’m not a kid in these turbulent times.

Brightest blessings!

Dani S

True right Buttons! I have been shocked at some of my nieces facebook status’s and my 12 year old son shaved his eye brows off accidentally in the shower last week because a kid said he had a mono brow. I couldn’t look at him for 2 days it looked so weird but I couldn’t believe how one remark had such an effect!
I am a single mum of a nearly 3, 10 & 12 year old and I have to work 3 days a week to put food on the table. The eldest 2 go to their fathers every second weekend and the littlest the child of the spath I have full time. I get very little help and I worry so much about raising my kids in this environment. When I was a kid I grew up in a country town and when my mother and father had to work I had a plethora of grandparents, aunties, uncles, cousins and close family friends to look after us. We never watched TV as we were to busy playing with the extended family and being out doors having fun. My kids dont have that extended family to care for them when I cant, even my mother works full time 6 days a week. What really worries me is how bad is the world going to get? I said to my grandmother once the world has gone mad and she said to me the world has always been mad it’s just that with TV we get exposed to it now. I think the world has got madder but I think we are getting desensitised with the over exposure of the negativity that is ramped on TV and the internet, except for here of course lol 🙂

HeatherA

Hi Dani S and Buttons,
I don’t think my desire to tell M what happened is motivated by revenge. I know, from my roommate’s experience, how vindictive psychopaths can be when you threaten them. My roommate’s boyfriend tried to kill him, cheated on him, and told everyone he was crazy, depressed, and suicidal. My roommate kept a journal, but when he took the psychopath to court, the defense used his journal to argue that he was hysterical. I know not to play with fire, I least I hope I do.

I tried to do my research with L. I asked former coworkers, my friends, etc, etc. It really bothered me that I couldn’t meet his family, even if he would have to introduce me as just a friend. But like I said, they (L and M) seem to live a fairly insulated life. So instead, I listened, I observed, and I recorded. He would complain to me about M, but I never said much, I just wrote it in my journal (I documented our entire ‘relationship’). I’m wondering if he wanted me to agree with him, and I was starting to, but I never told him that. He also thinks we don’t have any common acquaintances, but we do. I never told him that I knew about the sexual harassment accusation, or that I was friends with the girl that got him fired. I think my friend saved me, in a way. It felt important somehow that I knew something about him that he didn’t know I knew. Even though both my friend and L say it was a misunderstanding, it kept me on my guard with him. He was pretty smart, though, picking a girl he thought he had no mutual friends with, it’s easier to lie that way.

I just wish I knew for sure that M wasn’t in danger. But, judging from the stories I read here, he’ll keep doing emotional damage, but hopefully he won’t escalate to physical violence, and he’ll keep lying to her, of course. He has no doubt told her I was after him for years, that I’m a slut (saying I did something with a guy that I actually did with him!), and that I hate her, I was starting to, before I wised up. But every time I think, ‘No, she’ll be fine’ I think of Laci and Scott Peterson. It keeps nagging at me. I would like to do a background check on him, but since he seems to limit his destruction to his personal life (he was always professional at work), I doubt anything will come out. Has anyone here ever hired a private investigator, or run a background check on the psychopath in their lives? Did it work out?
Thanks!

hurtnomore010

Dear Violet,
That story was shocking yet I can feel the emotion in it. Man, that must have one adventure.

My mother wants to hear all about what my dad is doing but everytime I talk to her she gives me the same old. He will complain to her that I’m being disrespectful and she will say to him that she will talk to me. She does and says Hurt, just be respectful. I’m sitting there like you know I didn’t do anything, right? She says she knows I didn’t do anything that he creates drama. But she keeps saying ” Be nice and respectful” Most times I just say okay or I sit there like I didn’t do anything. I just stay in my room. Most times I think she just says it but really she knows that he looks for dysfunction

hens

Dear Violet. Your right , decieving is a thrill for them, it’s all about power, no matter how small or big the lie they live for that rush of power.

super chic

silver, wow, that is sooooo interesting
that you and the “legal” wife are so alike!!
How did you feel while you were talking to her?
Was it surreal?

It is so wonderful when we realize
it’s them (the spath), not us.
But it is so painful to be deceived and lied to.
You sound like you have a teeny bit of
compassion for him… is that the right word
to use???? or maybe “understanding” ???
Your post helped me to look at the spaths
that have been in my life
and to think about how miserable they are.

Buttons

HeatherA, I personally believe that M is in danger – of course she is! She either has no clue about what L is doing, or she does know and feels that she must accept his behavior for one reason or another. There will be a day of reckoning, but I don’t know if you should be the catalyst – it must be a very personal decision after weighing the pros and cons. I know that it’s not revenge that’s motivating this desire – it’s the need to WARN and speak TRUTH about a monster that will harm someone else.

Warning M is another can of worms, altogether. It would be risky, at best, to attempt contact with her with the assumption that she would be willing to hear from you. No doubt, L has already woven a fantastic web of deceit to “explain” your absence and he has likely painted YOU as a sexual aggressor, in the event that the affair ever became public. Only L and God know the lies that he has fabricated and what she may (or, may not) truly believe.

I have mixed feelings about “warning” possible targets. The ex spath ALWAYS chose Southern, professional women who were well-established and educated and he trolled the internet dating sites (often using Christian forums) to bait, lure, and snare his targets – without fail. He never dated any women that he met in Real Life – he always found them online. His targets were always “nice” women who had an abundance of empathy for others, especially for his “plight” of being a single parent with a psycho-bitch for an ex. He once told me that Southern women knew how to “treat a man” and I later understood that to translate into his viewing steel magnolias as simpering pushovers who were easily manipulated and ruined. The ex spath’s basic motivation was the pursuit and sexual ownership, and the breakdown of their personalities was secondary. Money was third on the list of motivators, but very nearly as important as the destruction of personality was. Needless to say, none of the 9 relationships lasted. I tried only once to warn one of his targets, and it backfired horribly. Thank goodness, she got out before she had entered into a contract of marriage, but I can only imagine how it must have gone for her.

Hurtnomore, mom says “be nice and respectful,” because that’s the only answer she knows. She’s remained with a monster all of these long years and probably doesn’t see any hope of saving herself. When I told my mother about divorcing the ex spath, she was furious and said, “The devil you know is ALWAYS better than the unknown!” It’s what she believed – it’s better to just keep from rocking the boat and put up with the abuse until “Something Happens” to remedy the situation.

Brightest blessings.

silvermoon

Shabby,

I don’t have compassion for the P, I don’t have any feelings for him personally.

It was business to meet the legal wife and the business was about my freedom. The observations were sobering.

She was very outgoing, kind and forgiving to me. I am grateful for that and for her help in the proceeding.

I am sorry that any creature lives in distress and I believe his tortured soul must because what he was seeking, he had twice but was unable to connect with it because of his disorder. And twice he let go in favor of going to prison. Its something I don’t think I can understand. Nor will pursue trying.

What is true is true and he is what he is. I make no mistake about that. And, will act accordingly.

The rest, like the wake from the boat fades into calm again like it never even happened.

BentNotBroken

Heather,

In regards to your telling M about your relationship, my advice is “get out and save yourself!” I completely understand the need to help her and the feeling that you are doing her an injustice by not telling her. I was pretty much in the same situation and it totally backfired on me (he made sure of it). As soon as I found out he had several other women, I ended all contact with him. I did, however, continue contact with one of the women. She was still seeing him, and I tried desperately to help her leave him (she tried many times and kept going back). As soon as he figured out we were talking, he played us against each other. He was very good at it, so much so that we began to distrust each other. He even got me to end contact with her and tried to convince me she was lying and he was the victim. It almost worked, but in the end I decided to stop all contact with both of them. It was difficult, because I felt like I lost the battle. He won. My failure to “save” her was very difficult. I also lost the one person (or so I thought) who really understood what I was going through. Then I found Lovefraud. One email to Donna and the support just came flowing in. No way was I going to ignore the advice I got here. And I’m so glad I listened. No contact is the ONLY way to go.

I wanted to contact her again and tell her about this site, what I had learned. She kept going back because he said he loved her, and only her, and wanted to change (and was telling me the same). We’ve all heard it before. I do wish I could tell her what I know (that he is a psychopath and that he is not capable of change). But doing so would only open the door again and put myself back on his radar. I’ve come to the conclusion that I can only be responsible for myself and my own family. She will have to figure it out on her own. Four other women have revealed themselves to her, and she still chose to stick with him. This is beyond my reach.

Chances are, M has seen the red flags. You are probably not the first woman to be intertwined in their relationship. If you try to help her and get involved, I believe you may be putting yourself in danger. The only obligation you have is to yourself!

Keep reading everything on this site”it will help you immensely.

super chic

BentNotBroken, hello! I have been wondering how you are doing, it sounds like you have grown stronger and stronger, and I think it is wonderful that you are here encouraging others!!!! Towanda!!

HeatherA

Wow, thanks everyone for the support!
I’m starting to think psychopaths target kind, compassionate people because they know we want to do the right thing and warn others, but like you all said, it only hurts us in the end. Also, when we do this, it gives them a chance to play the victim. I’m trying to come to grips with it.
In the end, L was never physically, sexually or verbally abusive with me, and I did not see any evidence of physical abuse with M. I think she will be ok, she’ll find her way on her own. If I ever hear that they have broken up, then I will try to reach out and maybe she will be receptive.
Thanks again!
Heather/’Violet’

ErinBrock

Heather…..many of us here have either hired a PI or done the work ourselves….and YES…you do uncover things.
Silver hired A PI who didn’t do squat for her…..
didn’t provide her with what she needed…..

I will always….from this day forward…..check into ANYONE who I allow close to me or my kids…..
there is simple things you can do…..online…..free….to cross reference info you find with what you are told about a person.

I always find this ‘helpful’ in scouting out trouble BEFORE it comes my way.

and yes….they do seek out the kind, compassionate, forgiving ones…….the ones who are raise with the ‘all people are good’ mentality…..easy prey to exploit!

And what you say about the spath not being abusive….well….I guess that is all relative to how YOU percieved abuse.
From what you wrote….I see it differently.

No, he may not have hit you with a baseball bat, no he may not have stolen money from you…..
he certainly emotionally raped you…….lied to you to get you in the sack. He ‘primed’ you as a victim.

Good luck….and KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN NOW GIRL!!!!

be thankful your not M.

HeatherA

Hi ErinBrock,
Thanks for the info on hiring a PI. I think I was catastrophizing earlier, but it’s good to know others have used it, I hope I won’t need to use it in the future.
As for the psychopath not being abusive, I definitely see manipulation as abuse, and I feel abused having to keep his secret. It was emotional rape, he didn’t use force, but he did use lies. It’s this sort of insidious, often invisible abuse that is hard to prove. You can prove someone broke your nose, but how do you prove someone broke your spirit? Abuse is abuse. I am just trying to justify (to myself) why I should be No Contact with both L and M. I don’t think she is in any immediate danger, she’ll get out, eventually.
Thanks again!
Heather

BentNotBroken

shabbychic,

Thanks for thinking of me. I am doing really well! No contact..I stopped counting the days but it’s been more than 2 weeks. I read one of the articles on this site or linked from this site (hard to keep track) about positive thinking and how to segment your thoughts into “files.” So whenever I think of him, I remind myself that he is in an obsolete file, and I mentally close the file and put it back in the drawer. It helps because I don’t allow myself to dwell or get depressed over something I can’t change.

The one thing I can do is try to help others who are going through it. It helped so much to have people who cared and took the time to write to me when I needed it the most. I want to do the same if I can.

Heather, stay strong and know that you are not alone. It feels so much better to be on the outside looking in than on the inside wanting to get out!

behind_blue_eyes

General Comments on Sex, Intimacy and What Sociopaths “Want”

I do not classify all sociopaths as being deliberate and calculating. Not only that, everybody wants something, be it love, security, success, even sex.

While sociopaths exhibit many common traits, the defining traits are lack of remorse, guilt or empathy. Thus, not all cheaters are sociopaths nor are all those in unconventional relationships. The same can be said for controlling individuals. But because they lack guilt does not mean that all go about life thinking they can do anything they want. Certainly some do, the most egregious criminal, but many are benign, the “sociopath next door.”

Somebody mentioned that today’s more permissive society makes spotting a sociopath harder. I think the opposite and any “fringe” individual should be viewed with caution. A good example is the “Ink” subculture. Another, those too into the Goth, Glam or Punk music scenes.

Yes, many sociopaths want power, sex or control; however, I believe some also strive for the “connection” that everyone around them has and they lack.

Part of my experience with a sociopath was stumbling upon a very detailed “profile” based upon the nearly 1000 profiling questions he answered. Compared to the “average” person, Jamie was more aggressive, more greedy, kinkier, less pure, less trusting, less moral, more pessimistic — typical for a sociopath. In fact, his complete profile does not indicate a very nice person and very opposite the impression I had of him in person, except for all the red flags I ignored.

However, very interestingly, he is less loving but more desiring of love; introverted too. Desiring of love and introverted are not typical sociopathic traits.

If he just wanted sex he could have had sex. Since we lived in different cities, he could have stringed me along for whatever he wanted every time he came to New York.

I agree with Oxdrover that the hormone Oxytocin (or lack thereof) plays an important, if not well understood role in sociopathy and is at the core of the sociopath’s inability to truly connect with another individual and their lack of empathy as well. I experienced this firsthand as only an individual without empathy could have done what Jamie did to me.

There are some studies indicating that shyness is linked with low levels of Oxytocin, an interesting twist as sociopaths are not typically seen to be shy. Thus, there is some consistency in this otherwise “inconsistent” sociopath.

HeatherA

Hi behind_blue_eyes,
Regarding sex and love, I also wondered about that with L. If he just wanted sex, why didn’t he find someone who just wanted sex, too? There are plenty of websites, and escorts, for that. Why wait for me for three years? I guess for them it’s the thrill of the hunt, they are so patient, scarily so.

L once told me that the first girl he had sex with never spoke to him again, and that he had a short term fling but always wanted a girlfriend, that’s when M entered the picture. Again, he could be lying, but I think, along with sex and control, he wants connection, but he will never have that. Or, they just don’t want to be alone and face the emptiness.

Also, I’m curious how you stumbled upon the profiling questions Jamie answered, was that a self-test or something he had to fill out for work?
Thanks,
Heather

Ox Drover

Dear Heather, I’m not Behind Blue eyes, but I’d like to answer your question if I might…it isn’t “just sex” it is the LONG CON and fooling someone. If he had a choice between just getting laid and fooling someone + getting laid, the latter is the perfect con whereas the getting laid anyone can do that, no challenge at all.

He told you all these things that M supposedly agreed to (the 3 somes and open relatinship) but SHE never told you these things, and my guess is that SHE didn’t know about them.

Typically, “attached” men lie about how the other party in the situation is or thinks etc. so that they can con someone else for sex etc. Of course he has already lied to her about how you HIT ON HIM, so that if you try to out him to her, she will not believe a word. Again, typical behavior in a P.

The challenge of the con, the control over both women, one to get into her pants, and the other to keep her from believing is part of the allure of the entire game with the P.

Since they are NOT connected or bonded to others except as “property” or “supply” (The same way I am bonded to my cattle–except for the 3 pet cows) I would be very angry if I lost one of the animals through theft etc. that is my PROPERTY, and they SUPPLY me with meat so I use them without any guilt, but they are MINE. I OWN then. I frequently con them into going in to a corral where I will load one to go to the butcher…I have CONTROL over them. If one were to try to get away from me or fight back, I would eventually kill it one way or another. So I have a kind of psychopathic relationship with my beef animals. Actually, I do try to give them a good life and a painless death, but you get the idea of how a P thinks about their property and relationships are simply property to them.

HeatherA

Hi OxDrover,
I’m pretty sure the threesomes happen. I’m also fairly certain that they happened with women and men (which supports the idea that psychopaths will have sex with almost anyone that crosses their path). I will never forget the time I went to their apartment. He ogled me while she cooked us dinner (!). The next day, I told another work friend that it ‘felt weird.’ She looked at me and said “They’re swingers, you know.” I’ve heard that from other people, too. What he does is make it seem like it’s her idea, but she’s too shy to initiate, so he does all the asking. I don’t judge people who have group sex, but the way he goes about it, and why he does it, is wrong. I’m also pretty certain M is a lesbian. Maybe having threesomes is his way of controlling her, like “The only way you can get a woman is if I bring one to you, and you let me join in.” Ugh, so slimy!

I know intellectually that it was a long con, OxDrover, I just don’t want to believe someone would treat another person like that, patiently waiting for their victim to fall into their trap. Every day the truth sinks in a little deeper, I take my experience less personally, and I can feel myself getting a little stronger. Thank you, everyone, again!
Heather

HeatherA

Hi OxDrover,
I’m pretty sure the threesomes happen. I’m also fairly certain that they happen with women and men (which supports the idea that psychopaths will have sex with almost anyone that crosses their path). I will never forget the time I went to their apartment. He ogled me while she cooked us dinner (!). The next day, I told another work friend that it ‘felt weird.’ She looked at me and said “They’re swingers, you know.” I’ve heard that from other people, too. What he does is make it seem like it’s her idea, but she’s too shy to initiate, so he does all the asking. I don’t judge people who have group sex, but the way he goes about it, and why he does it, is wrong. I’m also pretty certain M is a lesbian. Maybe having threesomes is his way of controlling her, like “The only way you can get a woman is if I bring one to you, and you let me join in.” Ugh, so slimy!

I know intellectually that it was a long con, OxDrover, I just don’t want to believe someone would treat another person like that, patiently waiting for their victim to fall into their trap. But every day the truth sinks in a little deeper, I take my experience less personally, and I can feel myself getting a little stronger. Thank you, everyone, again!
Heather

Ox Drover

Dear Heather,

Well, maybe I am a “judgmental old biddy” but I DO “judge” people who have any kind of sex that there is no BONDING with that is just “animal sex” if you will. TO ME (IMHO) sex which releases oxytocin the bonding hormone in normal people, but not a bonding feeling in Ps, should be a “bonding ritual” between people who truly CARE about each other.

I think because they don’t BOND with others, to Ps the sex is just an animal, purely physical “pleasure” that must be “upped” in intensity or diversity in order to be exciting. Normal or regular sex becomes “boring” to them. I also think that some how they seem to know that generally non Ps seem to get some kind of pleasure out of sex that THEY don’t get, so each new partner they have for a short time is exciting, but they soon bore with each new partner and seekk another one, each time thinking “this time will be IT”—of course it never is. The release of Oxytocin produces a feeling in normal people after sex, or giving birth, or nursing a child (all of which release this bonding hormone) that the psychopath doesn’t get—a PLEASURE they cannot appreciate, but I think the intuit that WE do get some pleasure they can’t seem to grasp.

I’m no sexual prude (I grew up in California in the 60s as a young adult) but I have now in my old age and dotage (I’m 63) come to see sex as more than just immediate pleasure like eating a good meal, and see it as a “bonding ritual” that I now will reserve for a committed relationship (to say nothing of cutting down on the risk of STDs, some of which –besides HIV–cause deadly consequences.)

Almost every P that I have known enough about to know their sexual habits has been promiscious to the N-th degree with “anything that would stand still.” So I see that as a RED FLAG with them. Of course not everyone who “doesn’t wait til marriage’ is a P of course, but the VERY “busy” ones with many many indiscriminate partners tend to be, I think Ps.

It also isn’t unusual for a couple who are “swingers” to A) both be Ps, or B) for one to be “forced” into this by the onen partner who IS A P and feel it is the only way to retain the relationship.

Ox Drover

ps Healther, I am NOT condemning YOU in this above post, but HIM. I am fairly open minded believe it or not, just trying not to be “so open minded my BRAINS FALL OUT” which I admit in the past I have been so “open minded” my own brains fell out and hit the floor. I hope I am learning a few things as I go along. Now I require HONESTY and compassion, and caring from those close to me. LOL

behind_blue_eyes

HeatherA;

After Jamie told me he only wanted to be friends, for a couple of weeks I remained in contact with him for a couple of weeks. My last email to him was never intended to be my last, but then the “revelations.”

I was very sick and in no condition to be going out, so I was looking at online dating websites, something I never did much of. A friend recommended this one relatively mainstream website as being for serious dating, not sexual hookups that are typical of most gay websites. That’s where I found Jamie’s profile.

For “matching” purposes, this website uses questions and various tests to “profile” users. I created a profile, answered about 100 questions and completed several tests. I pressed the “match” button and began paging through the results. I saw this one guy that looked like Jamie, but kept going because he looked so young. Something made me go back and when I looked at this guy’s profile I realized it was his.

Finding his profile was actually worse than when he told me he only wanted to be friends. Obviously, it meant he was actively pursing other people. I was also shocked that his profile was very juvenile, more like that of a teenager than a 30-something man. But this was consistent with his profile name “…boy25″ and his picture, one in which he appeared around 25, something he could hardly pull off in person…

I was hurt because we ‘matched” so highly. I was very hurt that as I looked at the questions he answered and the tests he took, there was much about him he was hiding. In fact, I learned more about him from his profile than I did from him in person. This angered me too, I only wish I could have stayed angered.

Something did not add up. In addition, something seemed familiar about “…boy25” so I Googled it and found an active Xtube profile that contained a video of him masturbating (trust me, he is no porn star) and link to a video of guys performing bareback sex. At this point, things clicked and I realized Jamie is HIV+, Thankfully, we did not have sex as we both agreed to “take things slow.”

Googling also revealed a mainstream gay website on which Jamie also had a profile. This one I saw about 6 months before I met him in person. In fact, I had made him one of my “favorites” although I never contacted him.

HeatherA

Hi Oxdrover and behind_blue_eyes,
Oxdrover, I absolutely agree about the role oxytocin plays in bonding and love. That was one reason I broke it off with L, it was so painful when he left me after we were intimate (well, I was intimate, at least). I know you’re not condemning me, I’m just putting the facts out there for myself more than anything else. Plus, I have realized that I will have to get tested for STIs. I asked him if he had any, he said no, that he uses protection. But he lied about other things, maybe he was lying about that, too. Only one way to find out.

behind_blue_eyes, that’s strange that your profiles would match. It sounds like he’s no longer a part of your life, thank goodness!
Thanks,
Heather

romanticfool no more

Hi Violet Heather,

My X was the original GOOD GUY. He was sweet, gentle, caring and told me how much he loved me every day. In over a decade we rarely left a room without a kiss. We were always touching and cuddling. He was never, ever violent and rarely got angry or raised his voice. He didn’t need to. Over time, and I mean years, he slowly groomed me into thinking I couldn’t live without him.

I was suffering from some condition that was slowly killing me. X was at first very active in helping me look for solutions, I loved that he was so supportive, unlike the other men in my life. Gee, he must really love me!

I adored his mother and sister, and I think they loved me in return. For the first time, I was part of a loving, functional family. What a package deal. Of course they didn’t live close and we moved away from all my friends to follow his (part-time) job….

I no longer had friends that visited me, just ones on the internet. I was too sick to go out. We lived way out in the country. I became more and more ill and isolated. I’m hearing impaired and it got so talking on the phone was a major stress for me. He also drugged me so I couldn’t leave the house or talk to people.

Only my friends on the internet who couldn’t be charmed by him saw the real picture. They tried to warn me, but even when I had to agree he was messing up my medications so much it was causing me severe problems, I passed it off as accidental. After all, he was beginning to act oddly himself. I was worried about HIS health. Underneath I saw those blood red flags waving wildly, but I was totally dependent on him so I ignored them. I told him I would be responsible for getting my pills from now on and I was changing pharmacies. I had no idea how, but I knew going through constant withdrawals were going to kill me. I had no idea how close I was to death. I could only walk by leaning on the walls. Within three days he was gone.

It still took me the better part of a week to believe he was causing my illness. Even then I thought he couldn’t possibly be doing it consciously. Not MURDER. He was so non-violent…so gentle always….always held me when I cried in agony….

I was M. No three way sexual games, but he was having an on-line affair with a woman dying of cancer. His excuse? “it doesn’t matter anyway, she’ll be dead before the end of the year” I would have been too. I didn’t matter either.

When confronted with the affair he went ballistic, so crazy and yelling that I suddenly realized I was dealing with someone dangerous. After that I never confronted him directly again.

His mother died the day before he left me, hence the timing of his leaving.He didn’t tell me. He told everyone I kicked him out. I didn’t, but I was glad he was out. He now owned a house with his sister. She had warned me about him, but she had changed towards me too, said things that made no sense, so he had been lying, setting the groundwork there too. How could I warn her he was dangerous? Her little brother! She knew about his temper, but not about the poisoning. Then he suddenly left town and enrolled in chefs school. Where did he get the money? Oh yeah, “our” savings. He left me nothing.

I still worry about his sister, but don’t see how I can warn her. Then I worried he’d have an off day and poison everyone at a banquet just for the feeling of power. It’s all about show and control for him. Ultimately I can do nothing. My doctor knows the truth, but we can’t prove it. Contacting his sister would put her in danger and might set him after my family and friends even if she believed me. What could she do anyway?

Any time I’ve been told by a guy that he has an open relationship and his wife/girlfriend doesn’t mind I’ve always responded with “Wow she sounds great! I can hardly wait to meet her and get her approval in person.” No one has taken me up on that.

romanticfool no more

I don’t think it’s strange their profiles matched. I’ve been working against the email scammers and they know exactly what kind of person they want to target and write their profiles to attract them. When I first signed on to a on line dating service, my profile was so sad and pathetic that within three days I’d hooked another sociopath. I’d just learned enough to recognize the signs so I responded a few times to see what happened. He was so text book it was scary. I checked him out and some parts of his story did match up, but he could have just lifted the name. We didn’t agree on some little matter and the next thing I knew he was throwing a major tantrum. I told him to never contact me again. He apologized but said it was my fault also. (I liked Elton John. He didn’t) I blocked him but the violence of his response was scary, and he totally ignored my “Do not contact me ever again.” request. Typical.

Ox Drover

Romantic fool!!!! TOWANDA SISTER!!!!! I totally agree, if you are going to have an “open” relationship, make sure you meet the OTHER PARTY TO THIS! LOL baw hahahahaha!!! ROTFLMAO!!! I bet none of them took you up on it! Most of the “open” relationships I have known about are all fantasies of the men who are LYING ABOUT IT!!! It is only open on ONE end!

The STD thing is something I am also concerned about too. As a health care professional (retired) part of my job once was teaching Sexual health classes to college students so I had to learn ALL about it myself first, and boy oh boy did I find out some things that were INTERESTING! And mostly that there is a LOT of stuff out there that will kill you and nothing will fix, or it sure isn’t isn’t an easy fix even if possible, and the last research I read about6 HIV is while they CAN clear it pretty much out of the blood with drugs, they can’t clear it out of the BRAIN and nervous system once it is in there which is usually one of the earlier places it goes….(this research may be out dated though as it is changing rapidly)…but there are plenty of people who will KNOWINGLY LIE about their HIV status or they honestly don’t know what STDs they have or CARE if they give them to you!

As far as internet dating sites—TOOO SCARY FOR ME, WAY TOO EASY FOR PSYCHOPATHS TO TROLL….and too many horror stories of friends and my son C who hooked up with Ps and got SCAMMED. My son C’s P even eventually tried to kill him, a friend’s P “wife” (marriage lasted 3 days) went back to her place of residence and opened like 30 charge accounts in his name and SS#—he still hasn’t years later got all that straight. I could tell more horror stories but you get the drift. It is difficult to tell too, especially when there is a LONG DISTANCE relationship.

I would never ever even consider dating someone for very long before having a full professional back ground check, or date someone more than 1/2 hour away. And at the FIRST SIGN of a RED FLAG, I’m gone…..NO SECOND CHANCES.

behind_blue_eyes

OxDrover;

I do agree with you but in slightly different terms. They do prefer the thrill of the chase, I just don’t think the thrill comes from the con.

I was not head over heals for Jamie. I liked him, he was attractive, albeit a little rough around the edges and he was charming, but quiet. Early on, pursued me and it seems that as soon as I showed real interest in him he backed off, then upped the charm. Very much two steps forward, one back.

Very telling was what he said when he walked out of Raoul’s Restaurant on me, just after I asked him if he wanted to go back to my place: “you are too intense for me, and I don’t like that Alex guy.” Alex was the guy I dated before Jamie that apparently was too close for comfort.

So, at that moment in time, Jamie was obviously very interested in me. That did not last long as is typical with a sociopath. I do not remember any sense of him enjoying a con. Actually, I remember the opposite, that he often seemed nervous. In retrospect, I realize this was due to the HIV issue being present, but never discussed.

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