By | March 14, 2011 87 Comments

Mark Ledden – a story of psychopathic violence

Lovefraud has just posted a new case study on It’s probably the most frightening article in True Lovefraud Stories:

Mark Ledden stabs his wife 11 times, then accuses her of attacking him

This is the story of a man who would probably score at the top of the PCL-R, the tool that measures psychopathic traits. He was charming, scamming and over sexed. He coldly threatened violence. Then, when he was crossed, he brutally acted on his threats.

It is also the story of a woman caught in a no-win situation. He seemed like a good guy, a responsible guy, when they became involved. Three months later they were engaged, and three months after that she was pregnant.

After the second child, Mark Ledden started threatening to kill his wife if she ever left him. By this time, Denise knew him well enough to take the threats seriously. She knew he was capable of committing that act of violence.

She also knew that if she left him, he would track her down and make good on his threats. So she stayed—until he did commit violence so atrocious that he was sent to prison. Luckily, she survived.

What do you do?

This case brings up the most difficult scenario when involved with a psychopath: What do you do when he (or she) threatens brutal violence, and you know the person means it?

What good is a restraining order? In reality, they are nothing but pieces of paper, and violence-prone psychopaths don’t care about paper.

Do you go off the grid and completely disappear? If so, how do you start over? You’ll have no identity, no background, no support network.

If Denise had called me for advice while she was still with this man, I don’t know what I would have told her. So I ask Lovefraud readers for your views. How would you advise someone who is living with a psychopathic volcano that could explode at any time?

Read the Mark Ledden story.

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I wish I could offer an answer specific to the question.

This is why it is ever so imperative that word get out about this dangerous disorder, so that people can more easily spot them BEFORE getting so deeply involved, and so that once unwittingly enmeshed the targets can reach out and expect to be believed and get meaningful help.

Ox Drover

Well, my son didn’t actually manage to have me killed by his ex cell mate that he sent into my family like a Trojan Horse, but he was working on it…if his Trojan Horse hadn’t gotten greedy and got caught lying to me about getting money from my egg donor, and if my friend in Texas hadn’t found his mug shot on a SEX OFFENDER list, I might never have known that I NEEDED TO RUN.

The girl my son is in prison for killing, a 17 year old girl, he had told several people he INTENDED TO KILL HER, one guy he even discussed where he would put the body, after he killed her, he took her rings and purse and jewelry back to her roommate and told the roommate he had killed her.

I think this Mark Ledden is the same kind of violent psychopath my P son is and the violent threats are not just angry threats that are not real, I think he, like my psychopathic son feels that he has a RIGHT to do this. Mark’s comment that “I’ll already get 5 years for what I’ve done” showed to me that he has NO FEAR OF PRISON, and KNOWS that the law thinks what he has done is wrong, but HE THINKS HE HAS A RIGHT to do what he wants to.

I think this young woman made a terrible mistake to stay with him out of FEAR.

At this moment I am taking a calculated risk of living in my own home under my own name, knowing that my Psychopathic son, though he is in prison, would murder me if he could. He feels justified in doing so, he knows it is wrong, but he hates me so even if he figured he would be caught (but of course he’s too arrogant to acknowledge that) he would STILL try to kill me if he could.

If my egg donor dies and he gets possession of any significant amount of money ($1,000 or more) from her estate, I have decided that the RISK TO STAY HERE IS TOO GREAT and that he will be able to “finance” one or another of his ex convict friends to come after me. Since he has no friends who could afford the gas money to get them from Texas to here, I actually calculate I am fairly safe now, but if he does get enough money to finance one, he is crafty enough to convince some dumb yo-yo ex con that by killing me he will inherit a Zillion dollars and share it with the con for knocking the old biddy off! Especially if he can provide the guy with a few hundred dollars to drive up here to do it.

I have read just about every book about stalking and/or how to hide from someone that I can find on the internet from Gavin DeBecker’s “The Gift of Fear” to others on how to stay under the radar and not leave a paper trail. I have researched which states and countries are friendly to Americans and what papers they require. BTW California is actually very friendly to people being stalked and will help with name and SS# changes etc.

I am a retired person wihtout any minor children too, which helps me, and I have at least minimal resources to get up and go with, that this young woman and many women or men with children don’t have. How do you make a living? How do you educate your kids without leaving a PAPER TRAIL? In the internet age, where it is almost impossible to NOT leave a trail, I’m sure it can be done, though, as there are somewhere about 11 million illegal aliens in our country alone. I also read about a young woman who hid in Holland and worked as an illegal maid to support herself and her child while running from her husband.

I wouldn’t say it would be EASY, or even in many cases legal, but I do know that I would I think (knowing what I know now) take my kids and run. I had a hard time convincing myself to go off and leave my possessions and my home and go into hiding as it was….my first reaction was to “stay and fight”—but it finally became obvious that I don’t live in a fort or a castle where I can put down the shutters or pull up the draw bridge and be safe while I slept. I don’t have armed guards to keep watch at every window.

I read the story of Dr. Amy Castillo that was printed here several years ago and I cried and cried. I wondered just how much that woman wished she had given up her medical career and RUN with her children while she had the chance before her X husband got unsupervised visitation and killed them. I wonder to this day how the woman keeps her sanity (if she does) because she made the decision to “fight fair” with a psychopath that had threatened to KILL her children.

Not all people who kill are psychopaths, and not all psychopaths are likely to kill, but I have seen “professional” estimates that 75% of abusers in domestic violence are “qualified” psychopaths so in MY estimation if someone is beating you or threatening violence there is a 75% chance they are a “card carrying psychopath” and there is 100% chance that they have DEMONSTRATED they are CAPABLE of violence which means YOU ARE AT RISK FOR BEING SEVERELY HURT OR MURDERED BY THIS PERSON. Staying only puts you at risk for a longer period of time.

Most of the time the risk is increased at the time or shortly after leaving such a person so leaving has its own additional risks, and some abusers will STALK the victim FOREVER though some will give up eventually. The woman who holds the FBIs “world record” for being stalked —for 40 years continually by her two x husbands, one mentally ill the other simply psychopathic–Dr. Sherry L. Meinberg wrote about stalking in her book “The Bogeyman, Stalking and its aftermath.” The statistics on stalking are that 1 in 12 women in the US will be stalked at one time in their lives.

I was in fear and I delayed running because it meant leaving my life’s work, my home, my possessions, behind. It meant that I “gave up” the fight in my own mind and was “defeated” by the lies—again, in my own mind.

I’ve come to a different way of looking at things now…and I am “set on go” if at any time I begin to feel that the conditions for my safety have changed, and I will grab my “grab and go” bag and either head off into the woods afoot, or jump in a vehicle and zoom away to safety, or duck behind a wall and shoot it out til the cops get here….whatever it takes. I will NOT live in terror and hyper vigilance to the point that I jump every time I hear a car drive by a half mile away on the highway, wondering if it will turn in here. I live in CAUTION, not terror. I am PREPARED and I also realize that life is not a safe thing, that being born means that there is 100% chance we will die, and that everything we do is a “calculated risk” but trying to appease psychopaths is a losing proposition. This young woman is fortunate indeed that she got out of it alive. If, and more likely, WHEN, her X gets out of prison, he WILL come after her in my opinion. He has had and will have had X number of years to fume and blame her for his being in prison, in fact, to blame her for everything that ever went wrong in his life, just as my psychopathic son blames me for everything he has ever done to get himself arrested, because I called the cops on him when he was 17 and had used my car in the middle of the night to haul the loot from my friend’s business that he robbed. Even the murder he committed three years later is my fault, his life is my fault.

I know there are several things that work against people leaving abusive relationships like this; the trauma bonding that takes place, the lack of self esteem, the lack of financial resources, lack of social resources and support, and the depression and PTSD that goes along with chronic abuse, the fear of physical abuse, the lack of validation by society and the courts and laws, and everything else that is a result of living in chronic fear and stress.

My heart goes out to women and men who have children with these monsters, and who live in fear of their lives and the lives of their children being taken by these violent men and women.

In light of what I know now though, I would advice anyone who is living with or separating from someone who is VIOLENT either physically or with threats to RUN, do whatever it takes to take your children and get away from them where they can’t find you. That may mean leaving behind your career and your professional license that you worked so hard for, or even violating the law, but I can’t even imagine what Dr. Castillo must feel since she chose to work “within the system” and it cost the lives of her children. I don’t blame her for the choice she made, any “reasonable woman” would have done the same I think–and she was a reasonable woman, she tried to work within the law and to conserve what she had worked hard for, her professional license and career, but it was a gamble she lost, that her children lost and I would be willing to bet that she now blames herself.

None of us can see the future, or know what tomorrow brings, but I think it is a pretty good “bet” that if someone is threatening to kill you or your kids, or behaving violently toward you are them, this behavior can ONLY get worse the longer you stay. Get out as easily and as quickly as you can, but GET OUT. GET OUT and hide out if you need to to be safe….even if it means turning your back on everything else in your life and starting over.

You can contact a licensed private investigator for a small fee to get advice on how to live without leaving a paper trail. You aren’t hiding from the FBI, just a stalker who can hire a PI to track you (or do it himself over the internet). If you do end up violating the laws or court orders to hide out because of custody violations, it will be much more difficult and if you get caught by the law you are facing prison time. However, there are countries where you can find refuge. Holland I think is one of them but you may never be able to return to the US.

It is a “crying shame” that psychopaths can put good people in this kind of situation and their kids as well. The general public doesn’t believe this sort of thing is “real” I don’t think, but it IS REAL, and we need to educate others that it is real, but more importantly we need to educate the courts and our legislators that it is real. CHILDREN SHOULD HAVE RIGHTS, parents should not, but it may come down to our protecting our own and our children’s lives with our own.

After putting more thought into it, and reading OxDrover’s excellent comment, I can only add that what I’ve done is tell many people what the sociopath/psychopath in my life has done, what I have reason to believe she may be plotting and why, and her anticipated methods of accomplishing it ”“ which is the polar opposite of how I’ve lived my life previously of keeping my mouth shut except for defending, protecting, and advocating for her. This broadcasting of her history and my suspicions makes it harder for her to get away with whatever, if anything, she may try.

As for moving & hiding, as much as I am determined to hold onto my home, despite her attempting to get it from me, I have considered the danger I’m in living here, where I’ve been since purchasing the house 22 years ago. I guess that’s what I get for being stable. 😉

Instead though, if I do manage to not lose my home ”“ at least not to her ”“ then I would probably stay, now that many people who believe me (and a few who don’t) have been made aware of what she’s done and is capable of doing.

So, if nothing else, get the word out. It may help keep us safe.

Ox Drover

Dear Sibs,

Just depends on the amount of violence that the particular psychopath is capable of. Some of them are not violent in the terms of physical danger, and others are very violent in physical ways. Bernie Madoff is in my opinion a psychopath, but I wouldn’t worry about him killing me, just ripping me off financially.

The guy in this story is VERY violent physically, and the THREATS that he made and the past history of physical abuse show that his threats should be taken seriously. Unfortunately the people least likely to take the threats and past violence seriously are the victims…partly due I think to the trauma bonds.

I am amazed that this woman was ABLE to get away from this man…amazed that he didn’t get her while he was out on bail for so long.

One thing I firmly believe is that my P son’s vision of things is so warped that he would come after me even if he knew there were machine gun nests around my house and that he could not kill me wihtout being killed himself–I think he would come on anyway, figuring that if he succeeded in killing me even at the cost of his own life it would be “worth” it and he would be “the winner.”

That being the “winner” and having “control” aspects of the way my son seems to think is so twisted. He thinks of himself as a “success” though he has spent 50% or more of his life in prison, almost 100% of his adult life, yet he thinks he is a “success?????”

What is successful about being a convict? How is he better off and higher status than a prison guard with a GED and a few missing teeth just because his IQ is bigger? Sheesh! My P son’s view of reality and what is success is so twisted he doesn’t even get enough of how other people, normal people, think, to even gestimate how they think.

Just like this guy told his wife that what he’s already done was 5 years so he intended to finish the job????????


Mark. A truly tragic story. These people WILL carry out their threats.

It is real, I know because I lived with this threat for 30 years.

I could not break free. ‘Ordinary’ people do not ‘get it’.


I have a friend in this situation. I told her options that occurred to me, but told her she needed more expert help, and suggested she go to a domestic violence shelter to talk and get advice. I told her to make sure they know what a sociopath/psychopath is. I told her to listen to her body’s reactions to things. I told her things to read on this site, books that I thought would be helpful, but urged her to first go talk to the domestic violence folks. I told her about betrayal bonds. I told her about the roller coaster of he’s nice, he’s horrible.

I also told her that my niece in the same situation got a panic button from the sheriff….push it and they are on their way, no question. They also told her to get a big black dog. (But if you plan on leaving for a domestic shelter, it is not the time to get a dog unless you have someone who can keep it for you for as long as needed.)

Even though I’m in a very safe place, I still have 6 dogs, three of which have made it clear they will attack if I’m in danger. There is a big bell to ring if someone wants on my property, and the gate is closed. The dogs are always with me in the house and one on the screened porch, and only loose in the yard if I’m out there. If you can care for them, some dogs are naturally protective. I had one who circled around one relative anytime he was talking to me….he turned out to be a bad man. The dog knew, even though I didn’t have a clue at the time.


I also highly recommend self-defense courses….but check out the instructor, some of them are P’s! But I took mixed martial arts/self-defense. While I think the best defense is horrible (and easy) stuff that inflicts a lot of pain quickly, what a course did for me was help me gain confidence, and taught me to be physically fit (so I can RUN) and to not panic, to not wimp out at pain, what to do when confronted with a gun or knife, a choke hold from behind, etc. The instructor also taught us every time we look at a clock, to trigger the thought “I will survive”….that fighting spirit, that determination often makes all the difference in the world.

I also learned to show aggression right from the start. When a strange man approached my mom and me in a parking lot that was deserted, as stores had just closed, as he got near I yelled “Get the F*ck out of here!” He looked shocked and turned and walked away. Of course my poor mom looked even more shocked! But I told her, a nice man would realize we might be scared and whatever he wanted, he shouldn’t be approaching us.

I also learned to look at strangers and give them the “up and down”look unsmilingly, so they know I’m not friendly prey and I can identify them. Before my inclination was to pretend I didn’t see them, which just encourages a bad guy.

But when you are living with the enemy, my opinion is you need to get out….and experts in your community can tell you how to do that safely.


Your history is so heartbreaking. While you may not personally feel frightened, I know you are smart enough not to place yourself as a target b/d dang it, these type of sociopaths are Persistent!!!

My husband and family (the NEST of vampires) are also persistent. It was not enough to drive me away, to destroy my reputation, to bankrupt me. They are angry that I did NOT SUBMIT to their demands and control. Thus they feel entitled.

THAT seems to be the common thread. Entitlement b/c the target did not comply to their will.

As my husband answered why did you murder that cow? (he described murdering a woman and right after, started murdering our cows) – and he replied, “b/c she had to learn “NOT TO MAKE ME MAD.”

For that reason, I stay essentially off the grid. My abusers are such that they have patience (they live into their late 90’s). They bide their time and are opportunity strikers. They know that NOW I am vigilent, but will wait a few years until I am not so protective. What they don’t know is that I have habits now, so I don’t have to be paranoid. My security habits are my safeguard, as well as a backup plan to my backup plan.

Think I’m crazy? Over-reacting? Well, a security plan and habits are no big deal compared to IGNORING a sociopath’s mindset, esp for the ones that say it’s not over until THEY say it is.



What another horrible story – thankfully, Denise survived (and also her children). Mark is where he belongs, in prison (too bad it’s not for life), being a menace and threat to his family and society-at-large, having a hair-trigger temper. These people do NOT think rationally, being justified (in their twisted minds) to do whatever they they want to do (having no moral compass). I feel badly for any woman or child that is related to a dangerous psychopath. Getting out, escaping from the enemy is the key – it can be done, but it will be difficult to do so, being life-altering for the vicitm(s) (in a positive way). My mother-in-law stayed with her abusive husband, raising six kids and all of them were affected by their father’s rages, mistreatment of them. To this day, my children’s paternal family members keep quiet, not recalling or talking about their father’s violence toward them. It is worth it to do whatever is necessary to get free of a psychopath, allowing the victim(s) to reach a state of peace, stability.


This story is so horrible. This man deserves to rot in jail the rest of his pathetic life. It’s a true shame that he will be free one day to walk the streets and no doubt probably pick up right where he left off…threatening his wife and heaven forbid actually hurting her again or killing her! If there is any justice in this world, he will be “taken care of” in prison.

And those poor children. I can’t even imagine what goes through there heads having witnessed their father brutally attack their mother like that. I thank God every day he gave me good, loving parents, a good family, a good life. My run in with my ex is just a blip on the radar for me. This guy actually makes my ex look like a puppy dog. I hope and pray this woman gets as far away from her husband as possible and start a new life with her children. To think she will have to live hiding from her husband once he gets out of prison is so sad. He doesn’t deserve to be on this planet. I pray this woman and her family gets the peace and justice they deserve!!


I read stories like this and thank God I got out when I did. I was with my second husband for about a year and a half; six months of that we were separated. It was a whirlwind romance and we were married in six months. His “mask” slipped right off when we were on our honeymoon. Months of him drinking to the point of throwing up and sleeping in his vomit, blacking out, and his rages were so bad I developed a twitch above my left eye. A LOT of name calling, controlling behavior, isolated from my family and friends and some physical violence. I blamed it on the drinking at first… thought if he would stop drinking, he would be his charming self again. He quit, but since he had no oulet for his rages anymore he became more violent and I became the sole target. I thought maybe he was bipolar. Maybe… maybe not. Knowing what I know now and recognizing the traits he was definitely a sociopath. The day I moved out for good, he left bullets scattered all over the bathroom counter and his gun was gone. I heard he died about 4 years later from a “heart attack” in Puerto Vallarta. All very mysterious. IRS problems? I would not be surprised if he is still alive. He had a very successful business. When I worked for him that year, we grossed $300,000 and we worked out of our home. I received a $1,000 month. I didn’t dare ask where the rest was going. I was planning my escape anyway.


This is my true lovefraud story, and I thank you all for your comments about it. Donna is a true artist at writing and telling my story exactly the way it happened. Thankfully for at least the next 6 years, this psychopath will be where he and all of them belong: in prison 🙂 God bless anyone who has come in contact with a psychopath and may you live to tell your story as I was lucky enough to.

Denise~Philadelphia, PA



I am amazed by you. You and your children deserve to live a peaceful, P-free life. God Bless You.



You’re lucky & smart you got out when you did. My ex is a drug addict, although currently he is clean and working on his recovery. He is also bipolar and taking meds for it. I, like you, kept on blaming his behavior on his drug addiction. I couldn’t understand how the sweet, caring person I was so happy with became this completely different person. He was never physically or verbally abusive with me. I would never tolerate that behavior. I was psychologically abused…lying, manipulative behavior, gas lighting. I new something was terribly wrong and knew I had to get out. There I am, a brand new mother, hating my newborn daughter’s father. Really not what I envisioned for myself, but it is what it is, and I am slowly getting on with my life.

Denise, my heart goes out to you. I’m glad you survived your ordeal. Maybe, since you are a teacher, and live in the Philly area you can team up with Donna and maybe do some school presentations in PA & NJ. Not only would you be doing good spreading the word about sociopathy, but you would also be helping yourself and show your sons what a survivor you really are!!! Just a thought!!! God Bless


Thank God you’re alive.
Please spend the next six years becoming armed and dangerous.

Ox Drover

Dear Denise, congratulations on your survival and on your children being safe! God bless you. Stay safe and keep your children safe. Take the time you have while he is in prison and use it to heal. God bless.



If you need somewhere to run, I have a large backyard in Australia that you can park a caravan/RV in anytime. Please stay safe and get strong. xxx

Ox Drover

Hey, Aussie girl, can I come too? I can’t figure out how to swim the asses and the RV across the ocean, but otherwise no problem! LOL Maybe I could be like that old man in Japan who perched on his roof and they found him 10 miles out to sea!

Actually, though, as many problems as you guys are having in that end of the world from fires to floods and earthquakes in NZ I might as well stay home and wait for a tornado or another earthquake here!


Oxy –

Anytime sweetheart! Fat Ass and Hairy Ass are also more than welcome (although if they bray, I would need to stash them on a friend’s farm nearby, as in town here – even on the edge of town – I am not even really supposed to have Wallace and Grommet (my two pet sheep). I am only allowed to keep them here as lomg as none of my neighbours complain. Luckily the boys are very quiet and nobody minds…) Maybe you could stash them on Hens’ little acreage? Then he would have plenty of manure for his gardens?

As for disaster, apart from the occasional big bushfire over Summer (like the one 2 months back that came within 20km of here), we are in a pretty safe spot. Not on any faultlines, so no earthquakes. Not on a floodplain or in a valley, so fairly safe on the flood front. Great emergency fire service, so even that is not usually a cause for panic. Not a cyclone/hurricane prone area.

Sell the RV and buy a new one when you get here! xxx

Ox Drover

Well, Aussie Girl, actually I would if I could, unfortunately nothing is moving or selling here now in this economy…I’m afraid I’d have to give it away. Actually, I have thought about moving out of the country and have actually even looked at some of the various countries that encourage retirees to move there and offer either dual citizenship or residence …problem is also medical insurance out of the country….Medical insurance in another one in which you are not a citizen is a problem.

I would have considered Mexico but the way the narcos are taking over down there, (and I love Mexico) I’m not even comfortable going there for a visit any more…Canada is way too cold….and some others are way too hot/humid most of the year…soo for the time being any way, I’ll just hunker down here where I am. If I was richer I’d come for a visit though!

BTW of course they bray!!! Usually about day light! It echoes across the hills and is the most musical sound! What breed are your sheepsies? Hair or wool? I really like sheep and goats! My friend has hair sheep and he has so many lambs now….they had 9 bummer lambs in the house! His wife was complaining because she said it was like a sheep barn! It warmed up enough that they could put them back outside though, but she is still bottle feeding them.


I believe each and every one of us knew very early into our relationships with the SP that something was very wrong. But their trick is to get us so involved, married, pregnant that we stay in the relationship because they are so great at looking normal. My ex was so charming, but under his breath he would say to me the most messed up things ever. We wonder is that normal, and everyone has secrets. NOT normal. But we take the package and we pretend we are a normal couple. Yes we blame the drinking, but the drinking was not the problem, when he didnt drink the dry drunk was just as evil.
So this is what we do to survive, we start talking to ourselves in our own head. SP would say ” I love you” and my head would say to myself”F you”. We do end up very screwed up and stress will physically make us all sick.
This is my answer to your question, what I did with my SP. I knew he was crazy, and I knew he was less scary in my life close to me, because I knew what he was doing, when he was doing it .In my 16 years I never left my kids home alone with him. We all hated this man. So we kept our friends close and our enemy closer, ( but everyone knows the SP makes it very hard for you to actually have friends). He truly is the enemy. But if we hang in long enough he will take the rope and hang himself. Someone he worked with saw his charm, heard his sweet I love you’s he spoke to me and she fell for this guy hook line and sinker. Well she is not on my mind of people to worry about.I am just thanking God he is gone. I know I sound like my relationship was not that crazy, we lived with a crazy drunk dad always playing with his loaded guns. My kids never knew if he was going to kill me, or himself. Again I would like to say that just having this forum to talk in helps me heal. I tell the outside world my ex was a SP they look at me like they think I might be the crazy one. Crazy to hang in, my best advice is to get that chain of paper against him. Call the police every chance you get, when he is good and drunk and he will hang himself in front of the cops. I didnt do this because I wanted to look normal…. but I have two very messed up kids . So I really want to say to anyone in this situation, RUN… run fast and far and DONT LOOK BACK. It was not real, never was, never could be. Just a matter of time before his next victim finds this website, for she is too old to get pregnant, and her money cant last forever. Sue


Remember the flick “ENOUGH” (2002) with J-Lo….watch and learn. If you haven’t seen it, anyone in a violent relationship with a spath, it is a absolute MUST SEE! The best lesson you can take from the movie, NEVER underestimate their deviant premeditation. Just as they were able to befriend you into their schemes, they are able to do the same with friends, family, co-workers, strangers, employees, that you have done THEM wrong, (the classic pity party) and that they are actually the victim. In this particular case, he underestimated her mental acuity, her drive and her maternal instinct, which is often stronger than physical strength. In her case, she trained and developed the physical strength; an excellent choice on her part. I always enjoy watching this movie; it gives those of us who are in a hopeless situation a glimmer of hope that one day we, too, can be free of the spath.



I agree that the husband in “Enough” is spath, through and through. Again, as when I watched “An Education”, the knowledge of what he was (not just a “bad character in the movie”), but SPATH and so like my ex in so many spine-tingling and barf-inducing ways…) made my blood run cold. I feel enormous discomfort watching a “dramatic play” of stuff that actually happened to me, accusations that were actually made against me and insults that were actually hurled at me. Yukky stuff all round.

Oxy –

W & G are both woolly sheep (so I have to get them shorn every year, or else they would swelter through and probably drop dead from, our extremely hot Summers here). W is a Merino X Blackfaced Suffolk and G is a Blackfaced Suffolk. Both immensely handsome fellows (not that I am at all biased…), bottle-reared from around a week old, allegedly orphans (although to be perfectly honest, I think the farmer I bought them off might have had something to do with the death of their dams….) and used to fit laying together across my knee while I fed them their bottles.

W would still try to sit in my lap when he was about a year old, but by then they were so big that only his front legs and his chest would drape across me, while his big fat belly, hindlegs and stump of a tail (we have to chop them off over here so that they don’t become fly-struck) would trail along the ground. It was most entertaining.

Even now that they are coming up for 5 years old, they think they are “babies”, always coming up for a scratch and a cuddle and a rub. Their paddock has 2 old fig trees in it and when I pick the figs, they jump up against me like a dog would, balancing on their back legs, trying to get to the figs before I do and damn near killing me in the process – they would each have to weigh well over 100kg, as well as being taller than I am when they stand on their rear legs!

They have been such fun to keep as pets – so much more intelligent than people generally give them credit for – real characters.

I would love your donkeys. I always wanted one of my own, but have never had the right property for it (noise polllution and all that jazz) ….maybe one day. Goats are my all-time, hands-down favourite animal because they are so clever and soooooooo naughty! I think when the first of my boys goes (they live around 10 years) I will get a goat as a companion for whoever is left.

kim frederick

Aussie, your pets sound absolutely adorable. Now I want one.
But, I know that Pinky-Doodle would object. He’s funny like that….wants to be the only one.


Kim –

I had 5 cats when I moved here (and they ALL thought they THEY were the only one!). I lost 3 of my old timers within 18 months of one another, and while grieving the whole spath thing as well. It was pretty grim, but the rest of my monsters kept me going.

Before W & G, I had had 2 other newborn orphaned lambs, but both had died after only a few weeks. I wailed the same way I did when I miscarried my 2 babies. I had actually gotten the first one (“Nigel”, a beautiful spotty boy) around the anniversary of my first miscarriage. It is always a tough time of year for me and I thought that having a baby to look after might help. It did – he was pride and joy. I took him to work with me (school) and the kids adored him. As I worked at a table with the children, he would lay in my lap and sleep.

I would carry him against my heart as mums do their babes; he was warm and floppy and had a beautiful new born smell about him (I kept him very clean); he weighed around the same as a human baby the same age would have done. I was inconsolable when he died from liver failure.

Some weeks later, one of the mums from school who lived on a farm, gave me a little orphaned female (“Gidget”) because she couldn’t bear to see me so distraught. Sadly, she was ill from the start and lasted only 3 weeks – but she was one mightily loved lambkin for that short time. After she died, I was obsessed with the need to “mother” another one. I got both boys because I knew the mortality rate was high and I was hedging my bets. They both made it and they have brought such joy to my life with their funny antics. They honestly think that they are dogs, not sheep.

kim frederick

Aussie, I am so impressed that you continued to mother these poor orphans even though you lost two and that must have hurt horribly. I probably would not have risked it after the first loss. Thank God you did, though, because your boys are probably the happiest, and luckiest boys in Oz.


Kim –

Every single farmer, butcher and meat-lover that has seen them would agree with you! I am the butt of many jokes as a consequence of keeping “meat” as pets and many a greedy lip has been licked in my back yard as my boys have been mentally weighed and dissected!

I always tell them that they will need to put me on a spit and eat me first, because it will be OVER MY DEAD BODY!


I always feel so sad for male farm animals – whatever they are, if they are not the “chosen one” (the breeder), most will inevitably get “the chop”. Females are usually considered more useful, because they lay eggs, or bear young or give milk……the poor old boys really don’t stand a chance, just by dint of being born with unfortunate chromosones. It’s just not fair, I tell you!

(I can hear Oxy sharpening her killing knives from here…)


God bless this woman and her childern to finally live a free and peaceful life.
What to do living in fear of your spouse or companion.You can only do your best for yourself and children. What is best is to plan everything out without the other knowing. You too need to play your part so they are not suspicious of you. Get some help from friends and family, have a plan to get out, save money put it away somewhere in a safe place. This may take time so patience is important, you need to swallow your pride sometimes living with these parasites, in the long run you will get away from them. Yes you will need to start over somewhere else new beginnings.Keep your focus on this at all times it is important to keep moving with your plan.Always remember the parasite you are leaving is a dangerous person and you must do this for your own good.God will give you the strength to move on in time. Unfortunately it seems this is the only way to live a peaceful life so it must be done carefully.We all know when we had enough and need to find a way out.God bless and get out of living in fear or it will destroy you……


Amen Eclipse,
but sometimes the victim forgets the plan. The parasite will charm her into going on a vacation, or buying a new tv set. He can smell her savings. She will think if they go away everything will be okay.If he gets a new TV he will be sweet for awhile. Sometimes we are our biggest culprit. The key is to get it into the victims mind that she is truly with someone she does not know. Third parties are always afraid to get into the middle of any relationship. We cant save anyone here, because if we are here it means we are already on board. Safe!The power is in knowing.


I find this all a pretty scary. I’ve been living with my P husband now for 10 years. He didn’t show his true colors until I was pregnant with our first child 6 years ago. We now have a second child. Although he’s never been violent towards me, he’s threatened to kill me twice… both times were when I threatened to leave him. He also told me that no one else would ever raise his kids. This last time he threatened me, a few weeks ago, he said that if he wanted to, he could get away with it, and no one would ever know. Luckily, his aunt, who lives with us, overheard his threat. I also told my brother and mother what he had said. So, now he now knows that if he ever did something, people would know he was responsible. Whenever he has threatened me, he always says it sarcastically, like it’s a joke. He’s also held knives up to me, jokingly of course, but I also know he’s half serious about it too. What kind of person does that?
So, I’m going to school right now, and once I’m done with school, I’m leaving. He knows that as well, because I’ve told him. We’re in a honeymoon phase right now, because of his threat and what happened a few weeks ago with me almost leaving. The only reason I stay, is because I feel like I have no place to go, and no prospects job wise until I finish my degree. But this story really scares me because there seem to be so many similarities.


I feel silly even mentioning my experience – nothing like OxDrover or the others!

My GF at the time was so possessive that my attorney warnd me that he felt my life could be in danger!

Socially unable to hold a friendship, except her school friends from 35 years ago – couldn’t hold a job, always had something nasty to say about someone, no real relationship with her daughters, left one in Knoxville with her ‘drunk’ ex, and took the other to California, where she ran wild.

And I had to ask myself, what relationship would she have with my son, as he grew up.

Thankfully I kept him away from her – and only spent time ith him on my own or with his friends parents.

I still have pangs of knowing what she is doing – probably living with a much older ‘stoic’ man – with money, and doing the same things – people do not change.


how long til you finish school?

I hope you realize the importance of keeping your thoughts to yourself. He does. He is always secretly plotting against you and you will never know what he is planning. YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK.

Mine was poisoning my food for 25 years. All the while telling me how much he loved me. The poison caused muscle spasms and unbearable pain. So I couldn’t work. It was part of the isolation strategy.

I’m surprised your spath is allowing you to go to school. Prepare for him to sabotage that.

The most important thing to remember is to SHOW HIM NO EMOTIONS. Do NOT threaten to leave him. Do not react to his “jokes”. They feed on emotion. The purpose of Gray Rock is to be so boring that THEY leave YOU. Use that strategy, BE BORING. NO DRAMA, NO EMOTION.

This strategy was described to me by a man who needed to get rid of his P-girlfriend. He knew she would stalk him if he tried to break up. Furthermore, they were both lawyers and she was well known and respected in her field, so she could have made things difficult for him if she got angry. So he used a different tactic. He never told her he wanted to break up, he just became so boring that she lost interest and slithered away

Ox Drover

Dear Waitingtogo,

(((Hugs)))) and God bless you and keep you safe! Yes, the leaving phase is many times the time of most danger, so it is IMPORTANT that you keep your cards close to your chest. Though in my case the man who tried to have me killed was my son, I got angry and spouted off to him my plans….so do NOT LET YOUR HUSBAND KNOW YOUR PLANS…do not let him lure you back into the “honeymoon phase”—think about your children’s lives if you are not there to protect them.

Knowledge is power, so keep on reading here and learning, and putting back a few dollars—even 1 or 2 a week—for an emergency fund, more if possible, in cash, along with a bag with copies of your important papers, birth certificate, SS#, rental agreement or mortgage papers, car title, car insurance etc. and a couple of changes of clothes toothbrush etc and one for each of your kids. Hide these bags with a friend or where you can grab them and go quickly, but where he is not likely to find them.

Have a shelter’s number and the cops on speed dial with your phone, keep your car keys and your phone in your pocket at all times—day and night.

BE PREPARED and BE CAREFUL, play your cards close to your chest and BITE your tongue, try not to provoke him, so he will let HIS GUARD DOWN. It is a difficult game, but one you can win if you play it for the LONG TERM….every day is one day closer to your freedom. Good luck keep strong and God bless you and your children!!!

kim frederick

Yes, Waiting, loose lips sink ships. Keep your mouth shut. Do not let him know your plans. He will sabatoge you at every turn. Keep your emotions in check and don’t provoke.

God bless and good luck.

Ox Drover

Aussie girl, Nah, I really don’t care for old mutton, leg of lamb is much better, so your boys are safe from me….the meat would be too strong! LOL Believe it or not, I don’t do “pet” animals (whatever meat kind they are) except as a service to prevent them suffering any further…there are too many meat animals I am NOT intimate with to choose to eat that are available for me to pick one that has a “name.”

You are right, goats are VERY psychopathic but they are so darned cute that even if they push you to the brink of goat-a-cide, you still love them. Only wethers (castrated males) and females are good pets though, the males are NASSSSSSTY and aggressive and when big enough dangerous. Plus, the males STINK to high heaven after about 3 months of age, so if you do get a goat, make sure it has no working male parts!

I would rent or borrow a male each year for my females but I never kept one,, even when the visiting one was here, he was kept in a pen away from and down wind of everything else, and I would let the girls “visit” him when they were ready, when his job was done, he was GONE. Yuk, they are nasty creatures!


Wow Waiting, we’ve all been there. We are worried for you, and I think we have all fell short of zipping our own lips. It’s a must!! I love the idea of being so boring he leaves. It could happen. It’s so hard with kids, but these guys are scum, they will find someone who will laugh at their jokes. All this advice is great.


I understand what you all are saying about keeping quiet. I tried that for so long,years, then a few weeks ago, I felt like I just finally snapped and spilled the beans about all my plans. Now he knows. I know that from now on, I’ll keep my mouth shut though, and let him believe I’m happy with our relationship. I have been putting money away for the last few weeks. I think as the time comes closer to my time to leave, I’ll get copies of all our important paperwork too. I’ll graduate with my LPN this fall, and if I can stay any longer to get my RN, then that would be one more year, but that seems like such a long time to me right now.
It’s weird, because I’ve never had to be a sneaky person before… I’m usually open and honest, and it sucks that he has brought me to this, but I know it’s for mine and my kids protection. He’s the most charming person I know… and I know that most people are going to believe whatever he says, and think I’m the one with the issues. I don’t really care about that at all. I just want out.


@ Skylar, he agreed I should go to school to get my nursing degree when I told him how much money I could make. I think $ is his major drive in life, so it makes sense to him. He also has a good job, and that’s also important to him, because it’s a status thing. It enables people look at him in high esteem, and he just loves it. I like his job too, because he’s gone at least half the time for his work… and that makes it much easier for me to stay on like I have.

Ox Drover

Dear Waiting to go,

Yea, he will do what he can to sabotage the school, especially at the last minute so expect that….

Since you have kids you will expect also that he will try to use that against you and use them as a lever to hurt you with, so anything you can get as EVIDENCE is going to help you. A small digital recorder might be something you might want to invest in as well, keep it with you and hidden so you can tape any threats that he makes. DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

Don’t be “too nice” to him, it may make him suspect you, but don’t provoke him to outrage either, kind of “hit the middle”—even start to verbalize some PLANS for your extra money that include him…like “maybe we could buy a house or a new car” when I get to work and start earning some money? Waht do you think, honey, would you like a ford or a chevy?” LOL

Sort of that I call DIS-information, throw him off the scent of your real plans. Keep the faith and keep on coming here and learning more. (((hugs))) and my prayers for your safety.


excellent, you understand his motivations: status symbols.
Make sure you provide that for him, but take no glory for yourself. That will make you useful to him.

Oxy is right, they sabotage at the last minute, so you have to replace that last minute. You need to hint that you are going to have to continue school further or that you are taking longer because of another class you need. Don’t let him know what the timeline really is. Shift it around, make sure your stories are iron clad, don’t get caught in a lie.


I was set free form the Sp Jan 2009, he had found another victim…his 4th wife. I am now just like everyone here trying to figure out how to move on.

Reading Waiting’s story I am brought to the time that I planned to leave(2003 I was able to stay away for 2.5 years, this is the first time I was able to escape). I had spoke with my family, and they agreed to let my daughter and I move in with my brothers. The times that he was gone to work I was transporting items that I knew that he would not miss to their house, I would buy things that I knew that he wouldn’t question me. I began hiding and saving money so that my handicapped daughter and I could at least have some chance of starting over. About 2 months before I was able to carry out my escape plan, all hell broke loose. I was finally able to find another family in the US that had the same syndrome as my daughter (there are 250 reported cases in the world of my daughter’s disability). I was on the phone when he got home from work…normally I would end my conversation so that no excitement would happen. But on this day I was learning about how to help my daughter and what to ask the doctors and how to do the best by her. He preceded to ask who I was talking to, what was for dinner, and for me to get off the phone. I was so relieved and overjoyed by speaking to the woman that I was in tears..finally I wasn’t alone when caring for my daughter. As soon as I was off the phone the name calling, servant expectations took full swing. My daughter was scared as I was holding her tight, he had began yelling and screaming (as he cornered her and I in the very small kitchen)about how dinner needs to be done and that I need to make sure that his things are taken car of, and that I don’t have time to be talking to all those people. My daughter then became increasingly freaked out. As she began crying and becoming more unsure of what was going on I kept saying to him…”Do you see what you are doing to your daughter?” I repeated very calmly with out yelling…he finally stopped screaming long enough to reply, “I don’t care what I am doing to her, she will get over it.” At that moment I was done. He finally left me in the kitchen preparing whatever dinner I could gather, while trying to calm the poor baby that was too scared to know what to do. I packed a diaper bag, very quietly, and walked out of the apartment, he sprang out of his chair and followed me to the stairs, asking where I was going. I calmly replied that I will be staying with the neighbor. He kept trying to grab the baby, and begging me to let him hug her. I would not let him hold her, i told him that i was smarter than that. Once with the neighbor, the plan was in motion, I watched him leave for work, and 6 hours later I was settling in the house with my brothers. I left him a “dear John” letter in red. No phone number no address, just that we were safe.

I was no contact for 8 days…………and the super charming man showed up again………it took 2.5 yrs for me to go back. Each time I returned the abuse, the violence, the prison camp got worse. It really didnt matter that I had gotten out…he wasn’t done with me until he had (1) broke me (2)found the next prey.

I was with him for a total of 10.5 years. The damage sometimes feels unrepairable. I now am caring for my special needs child trying my best to believe that we are not a burden to others, that someone will want us and that we aren’t too damaged. All the while watching him use my precious angel as a trophy, using her as a tool to groom this next poor lady. I hate that he acts like some sort of super dad always willing to step in and help out…after all the years of me being in trouble for seeking medical care for her, all the times that I had to call someone else to take us to the hospital…AND NOW HE IS SUPER DAD…OOOOHHHH man it really BURNS MY BISCUITS.

I am so thankful that my daughter doesn’t fully understand what is going on. I try to explain that mommie loves her and that daddy loves her the best way that he can. I make sure that she knows that it is ok to love him and his new family. I try my best by her….I have already failed her so many ways. My therapist tries to help me understand that I did the best that I could, that I couldn’t protect myself, how in the hell could I protect her.

( I have been here reading for over a year now, and I see my story in your stories, and know that you all can help me move on)

Thank you for being here, although I am sorry that we are part of the “aftermath club”.



survivor, I too have been on this website for about a year reading everyones stories, and seeing my story in there’s. I just posted today for the first time. I’m sorry to hear about your terrible ordeal, and I’m so happy you were able to leave.
Skylar, thanks for the advice. That’s exactly what I did after the 1st time he threatened to kill me, and ever since. Sometime, I hate to admit it, I get drawn back in when he’s being nice, and then I think things might work out. But I think that false hope has happened way too many times now, and I’ve already checked out of our marriage mentally. My only goal is to finish school so I can support our kids when we leave. He’s in the Air Force, so I know he won’t be able to “follow” us wherever we go… so that’s a blessing.
Something I found very interesting, is that his biological father was the exact same way he is. His mother still, to this day, gets threats from his bio dad. Weird he turned out just like him. I purchased the book “Just like his Father” and see that it is genetic. I just hope my kids don’t inherit any of this from him, although we’re already having some problems with our oldest. I’m scarred for her too, but I think getting her away from him can only help her. Thanks again for all the advice. I’m so thankful I found this website, or I’d still be so lost.

Ox Drover

Dear Survivor1998,

I’m glad that you found your way here too, and so sorry that you had such a horrible reason to come here, but fortunately you are out of that relationship now, and it is time for you to heal.

The journey starts out about getting away and safe from them, and learning about abusive people so we never have another one in our lives. We know we can’t change them, we can only change ourselves and our reactions to them. NC as much as you can do it is the best way…hopefully he will lose interest in your daughter and his “visits” will be less and less.

I’m also glad that you are in therapy and that is good for helping you heal and giving you support now. Keep on reading and learning, KNOWLEDGE IS REALLY POWER and we have to take back our power.

Also keep in mind that his “new family” are treated just like you were behind closed doors…of course he wants others to think it is wonderful and wants you to think he treats her well…but if he treated you badly, he IS TREATING HER BADLY NOW TOO….that is a FACT! So don’t look at what he is presenting to the world as truth—remember THEY ARE THE LIE! (((Hugs))) and God bless.


Dear Survivor1998 and Waitingtogo –

Welcome friends. xx

Please stay safe and watch your backs. Their craft knows no bounds.

Waiting – if he is playing the honeymoon stage, pretend to go with it but in an exhausted, worn-out-looking kind of way so that he doesn’t presume to get intimate again with you. Smile and be courteous, but just don’t get suckered back in – know that it is a lie and a game and feed your own lie and and your own game back at him, but be subtle.

Patience and careful planning are your allies. Have a back-up plan in case push comes to shove and he gets too out of control before you can put your plans into action. Visit a DV shelter and talk to someone there who can show you all of the available resources and talk you through making a strong plan that will work.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your babies. xx


Reading this article gave me the CHILLS! Were the single detail of the stabbing missing from the story, this could have been the story of my own life. The initial appearance of a successful man, the children that were then brought into the world, the decline of finances, the homelessness, etc., all so accurate to me. The VERY words this man said to his wife on Valentines Day, when he knew and expected his lack of consideration to hurt his wife, and when she admitted hate to him she was dragged by her hair– I have lived through that exact situation, minus the stabbing though.

It all reminds me of a very important key point: THERE IS A PATTERN. These people all say and do very similar things, so they can be identified ahead of time.

Lovefraud is a very important site for this very reason. It is a potential lifesaver for people who wonder “should I stay? what could happen?”

By the way, I have court today. Despite about 4 different restraining orders, the social workers and court officials are too oblivious to prevent me from having to sit directly across from my husband for about an hour while we wait for our turn in court.

Having left and been away from him for about nine months now, I still have no easy answer for people who desire to get away from these monsters. In the women shelter I was somewhat safe until he found me (followed me home) and I had to transfer to a different one. Even still it was difficult to cope with life, as I was treated, and still am treated, as a criminal for receiving a black eye in the same home as my children. Court today has nothing to do with him recompensing his family for how he treated them, it is merely one of the hundreds of stepping stones I have to cross in order to get full custody of them again.

If you are reading this, and you are not sure whether to stay or go, I say RUN and never ever ever ever look back. I don’t promise you that it will be easy, because it won’t, but if you value your children and your life, please face those obstacles anyway.


Survivor1998 and BeAware,

All we can do is “the best that we can do.” You are smart women, having ditched the spath. Life is not easy for us, but it is far better without the disordered men in it. Things will improve for you, no doubt about that. My heart goes out to all of us.

Ox Drover

Dear BeAware,

Glad you are away, and glad that you are making progress on those “stepping stones” through the swamp of despair. I pray for you and your children through this ordeal by fire through the courts and the stalking. BE SAFE! Stay here and continue to learn and to share your experiences with others who are “sitting on the fence” and can’t make up their minds to go…and I know you know how hard that is. Thank you for being a good example for those people who wonder. ((((hugs))) and my prayers for you and yours.


I think what saved me is my psycho ex’s knowledge of my mother’s suspicions and very active interest in my well being! He hated her because she blew his cover and called the police on him soon after he’d moved the two of us to the country. I called the police several times myself after it became apparent that he’d been hoping to have me all to himself to torment and destroy at his leisure. At the end he evidently decided it would be too risky to do me in–he prefers his life as a free man in the country, and he decided to just divorce me. Because by that time he figured he’d get caught in the act, even admitting one night while drunk that the reason he was divorcing me was because I knew too much about him. It had become apparent to me that he’d likely committed a few murders in his past.
Bottom line is that sometimes it really does pay to advertise! But that doesn’t work so well with a pscho who is so far gone he doesn’t care what happens to himself as long as he can indulge himself at your expense. In that case, run, run, run, if you possibly can!!


Thank you all for your support and for sharing your stories…I am also sure that you can guess that this little story is just the tip of the iceberg…to say the least.

I have been in recovery for 2 years now, there are times that it feels like it was all in another lifetime..that all these things could not have happened…that is proof of how far I have come. But then all of the sudden the PTSD is in full swing. I am holding on for dear life trying to understand, trying to put the right words together in order to explain how I feel, or the flash back that I see.

Beware stated: that they have a pattern…oh my how so true. It is so hard to watch. It is so much easier for me to play nice, for me to be nice, because he is so mean and evil…as long as he thinks that he has some sort of door open, he is the super dad. I worry about the teenage daughter that the 4th wife has. She is 16 and he has made reference to me about her body. I pray that she(the wife) is stronger than I was. I was warned by the 2nd wife..but I didnt believe her.

Now I am in this place where I must face the pain. the truth. the victim. I am too scared to do this. I have already lived thru it once…the PTSD is testimony to that!!

Thing is I hate the victim…even more than i hate him. I feel like such a failure. Sometimes I feel like I should be over this…my wonderful therapist tells me that i didnt get here over night, and i will not heal over night. In order for me to see that it is ok to feel like a victim she used some really strong words the other day…….”1998 you were raped, he raped you emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually. it is ok for you to see that you were a victim.” she then said that in all her years of practice she has never seen someone “run” from the pain has hard as I do. (i have been seeing this lady for almost 7 years…she has met the SP and she never knew what was going on behind close doors, I was too scared to tell her, and too brainwashed to know the difference…in the time of my recovery I have made her cry at least 3 times-goes to show at what lengths we will go to protect the SP).

Right now I am just looking for the strength to keep on keepin on….I know that we are only as sick as our secrets, but I am too scared to embrace the victim…..

thank you all

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