Most of the time we spend with sociopaths is spent in confusion. They tell us that they love us, while they cheat on us and take our money. They tell us that everything will be wonderful while our lives are falling apart. They tell us they’re sorry and will never do it again, yet they do it again, and again, and again.
We ask ourselves—what in the world is going on here?
They explain it all away. The explanation seems to make sense. But something still isn’t right, and they still don’t stop the behavior that makes us believe we are losing our minds.
There must be a reason. We wonder if they’re depressed, or bipolar, or they have low self-esteem. We’ve been told that they were abused as children. They overindulge in alcohol or drugs, and we’re sure that if they can only overcome their addiction, they’ll change.
It never happens.
We can’t figure it out.
The words that fit the behavior
Then someone says, “It sounds like he (or she) is a sociopath.” Or maybe they even use the word “psychopath.”
Sociopath! They’re the guys on The Sopranos.
Psychopath! They’re all serial killers.
But something tells us to do more research, so we go online. We buy a book. And there they are, the people who are driving us insane, perfectly described in the symptoms of a sociopath.
At Lovefraud, we hear it all the time:
“He’s got every symptom on the list!” “The description fits her to a T!”
Finally, we have a name for that person’s problem. He or she is a sociopath. A psychopath. An antisocial.
Finally, it all makes sense. The lies, the emptiness, the remorselessness, the evil. There is a reason. It is not us. It is a personality disorder.
Naming the disorder makes all the difference. Finally, we begin to understand what we are dealing with. This allows us to begin recovery.
Learn about them in school
Why do we spend so much time in confusion? Because there is no education program about this personality disorder for the general public.
I remember a story from the tsunami that struck Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and Thailand on December 26, 2004. A vacationing family was on the beach there when the ocean suddenly receded. The little girl of the family had just finished studying tsunamis in school, and learned that the receding ocean meant that a wall of water would soon come crashing into the shore. She told her family, and they escaped to higher ground.
Sociopaths cause personal tsunamis for all of their victims. The sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials of the world cause a huge percentage of all human pain, damage and devastation, yet most of the population does not know they exist. Why? Why don’t we learn about these predators in school? If we did, when we saw the symptoms, we could escape.
Arguing over terminology
Part of the problem with trying to educate people about these predators is that the mental health professionals do not agree on what to call it. First it was moral insanity. Then it was psychopath. Then it was sociopath. Then it was antisocial personality disorder.
The professionals can’t agree on how to define and diagnose the disorder, either. The American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), is supposed to be the bible for clinicians. I find its description of antisocial personality disorder to be vague and difficult to understand.
Dr. Robert Hare’s description of the symptoms of a psychopath—the term he uses—is easier to understand, and the test he developed has been consistently shown to be useful in predicting recidivism among criminals. But Hare’s criteria and evaluation are resisted by many psychiatrists. From what I’ve heard, the basis for much of the disagreement is political.
Mental health profession should come to agreement
I believe this lack of agreement is a travesty, and the professionals are actually contributing to the confusion in which the predators operate. In a way, that makes the mental health professionals complicit in the havoc wreaked by the sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials—whatever we call them.
Lovefraud calls on the professional associations to solve this problem. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry—please, come to an agreement.
Make a decision. Define this disorder. Publicize the symptoms. Let the general public learn what to look out for.
It would help all of us keep the sociopaths/psychopaths/antisocials, the human tsunamis, from upending our lives.
Whew! Keeping up with your posts is a part-time job for me, and I just can’t take the time to sit and read all the other topic posts as much as I want to. Again though, I appreciate everyones words.
“My” S. states he is a Christian (ya-ya it’s probably fake), but I have caught him praying by himself, he prays before he eats, he sang in the choir until last year, he writes in his journal asking God what is wrong with him and to help him. He has four or five sponsorees he prays with and guides. He is always reading some self- help book, (currently “The Power of Now”, which I have read parts of and is a great book.) I attend church, have studied diffferent beleifs and consider myself spiritual. However, there is too much hipocracy in religion for me to put any faith in anyone I would meet in these structures.
Also, I am getting closer everyday to where I need to be.
Although the S. has only been in my home for two months, he packed my van full of clothes and toiletries and moved into a men’s recovery home last night. No fight or drama, it had been planned for a week after they decided to accept him (he has much more clean time then they typically accept.) He came back early this morning with my van, I took him to work and he will expect me to pick him up from work tonight at 11:30 and take him to his new home. I’m not sure if I will do this (you guys know I don’t want to, but probably will.) This should be an interesting time.
Dear Lib,
Well, I am so glad he is OUT of your place at the very least. Congratulations.
If he is sincere in his spiritual and emotional journey he may find peace, if he’s not sincere, then he will learn more ways to APPEAR sincere in order to suck in more victims.
There are plenty of “dry drunks” in AA or “clean addicts” in NA. A dry drunk is better than a drunk drunk any day, but they are both dangerous in some ways.
Lib, ask yourself what your “boundaries” are, and whose responsibility it is to get him back and forth to work? Are YOU responsible for that? Or is he?
There comes a point in a relationship that is abusive that NO CONTACT is the only way the relationship can end positively for the abused party. There isn’t anything to gain for YOU by you being responsible for getting him back and forth to work.
Even if he IS NOT a true psychopath and IS sincere in his attempts to dry out, stay clean and get in touch with his spirituality, his BEHAVIOR is laging so far behind that he is STILL DYSFUNCTIONAL in his behavior, but it is HIS RESPONSIBILITY to take care of himself, and to work on his own healing. I mean that is giving him EVERY benefit of the doubt.
Sitting in a church, even 3 x a week doesn’t make you a Christian any more than sitting in a hen house makes you a chicken. Spirituality will be DEMONSTRATED by how a person ACTS. Granted that even the most sincere Christian or Hindu or whatever the religion is will err from time to time but the OVERALL PATTERN will be seen. Even the Bible, while telling us not to “judge” (try to mind read someone) also tells us to “judge a tree by its fruit” i.e. to look at someones BEHAVIOR as an indication of their sincere motives.
Good luck, Lib and (((hugs))))
Lib: He’s on the right path now. Give him room to grieve, heal his pain, learn how to be humble again, stop living from his ego, stretch and grow from his own experiences.
Those living in their egos go to church, think they believe in what was/is taught … but still view it from their ego. It’s when you surrender to God is how you become humble. When you are humble and read the word of God is when you truly connect to our source who created all of us – the universe. We are all one creation and we should respect our Lord who created us and allowed our spirits to exist and experience human form. Who knows what is best for us, than our CREATOR? Why some in this world think they know better than our CREATOR is beyond me. God knows why? He knows everything (alpha to omega).
Right now Lib, you can focus on your own healing, just like your EX can focus on his healing.
Peace.
Been a long time since I’ve posted anything on LF, but have been trying valiantly (and failing) to keep up with all the posts and then I couldn’t find my password when I wanted to post yada yada.
Anyway, the thing I’ve been wanting to comment on is the issue of boundaries and did we see and know what was going on, but chose to ignore it, and so are partly responsible for what happened because we did not maintain proper boundaries? I don’t agree with this notion. Of course with the benefit of hindsight everything is much clearer, but in many cases I don’t think the signs (at the time) are so obvious.
I don’t doubt that in some cases they are. Just as we are all alike in many ways, we are also all unique and different. Same with our S’s. Some are violent and obviously abusive, some are more cunning and deceiving. Mine is of the latter type. Any flag that I now look back and say, a-ha! that was a sign, could just as easily at the time have been plausibly explained away by whatever he could have said and probably did say about it.
I’m sure we can all, no matter the overt behavior of our BM(W), now look back and see instances of this. Instances where we now recognize (and wish we had honored) that niggling intuitive sense that said something wasn’t quite right. Did he lie? Did he mean what he said? Did I hear him right? Did I misunderstand? All these questions gnawing, albeit gently, in the back of our brain. Unfortunately, however, at the time, we didn’t investigate further because whatever it was was usually cleverly and “sincerely” explained away by the S in a manner that appeared not all that different from something the non-S’s in our lives might have said if we had occasion to question them.
We don’t go around assuming our casual acquaintances are lying, why would we assume or even suspect such of the S, the one we love so profoundly, the one who pretends to love us back, only more, were that possible.
In her introduction to The Sociopath Next Door, Martha Stout says that sociopaths are rarely found out because most people assume that having a conscience is universal. We can’t fathom any other way of being.
I know I can’t. Even now, even knowing the astoundingly horrible things “my” S did (and continues to do), it is almost impossible, no, it IS impossible, for me to completely get my head around the fact that he is utterly without conscience.
For me it’s been over a year now since the truth began to leak out, since I began my long overdue journey of discovering the truth and, still, there are times when it hits me so hard, it practically knocks me over, it is so shocking, the duplicity, it’s astonishing. The deception was so utterly perfect. (I found him out only because of a fluke.) I so believed the illusion–well, hell, it looked real–and what I am trying to say in my long-winded, tangential way is that what happened to me was something that happened to me. I was a victim. I was no more responsible for what happened than a rape victim would be responsible for having been raped. I in no way deserved it. It did not happen because I lacked boundaries, and for anyone to suggest otherwise (and sometimes people do) is profoundly hurtful. It only adds to the pain.
I have a 32 year old son with a PhD in math. He’s extremely intelligent and logical. He said to me recently after I apologized for ever having let the S into our lives, “It’s not your fault Mom. There’s no way you could have known.”
My son was deceived too. He was 12 when my S and I married. My son lived with us. He loved the S. He thought of him more as a dad than his own bio dad, that’s how convincing the S was. If my own son–not to mention the friends and other family members who believed with all their hearts that my S was a devoted husband and father and that we had the best marriage of anyone they knew–did not see any red flags that might have triggered the building of boundaries, then I am not going to chastise myself or lecture myself or in any way hold myself responsible for the cruel and selfish victimization that my S perpetrated on me and everyone I love.
That is not to say that now I know the truth I am not responsible for re-inventing my life. Crappy though it may be that anyone, especially one who made such professions of love, could so devastate another human being, I am the one who must fill the void. I’m the only one who can. No matter how sorry my friends and family feel for me, there is nothing they can do. They can steady the ladder, but I am the one who must climb.
Dear Gillian,
Welcome back, dear. There are some of them that are sooooo cunning that they don’t wave a bunch of red flags high and wide. The only thing that might have tipped us off is that niggling little “gut instinct” that something wasn’t right.
There are Ps who are more blatant in their flag waving and are more easily spotted. It’s all relative. BUT even if you saw HUGE RED FLAGS and ignored them, it does NOT mean that you deserved to be treated with abuse. I am not one to blame the victim for the abuse.
Many of us, I can’t say all, didn’t have appropriate boundaries when the abuse started, we let them and we ourselves made excuses for their bad behavior up until some point we decided that the pain was too much. Does that mean that some/all of us were responsiible for our own abuse? NO. The abuser is responsible for the abuse.
It seems a contradiction in terms to say that I should have honored the red flags of my X-BF and not become involved with him or he wouldn’t have been able to abuse me and lie to me. It it really isn’t. I accept that I saw red flags, big ones, and didn’t kick him to the curb because I didn’t want to. I eventually did kick him to the curb. But it HURT to do so, because I had kept telling myself that I could “fix” it until I was too deeply hooked to tear that hook out of my guts without pain.
But, accepting that I saw (and I really did) red flags and ignored them, will help me to avoid dong the same thing in the future. Accepting my part in allowing it to go on. I am sure that there are some people who had NO IDEA that their spouse, or whatever the relationship was, was a P, but knowing or seeing red flags or not, the ABUSER is the one responsible for the abuse.
Just as “abuse” has many forms, so does “accepting” abuse have many forms. This whole thing about healing isn’t about “blame placing” it is about becoming whole for us, learning from the situation how to spot Ps in the future so we are never again subjected to abuse of any form. Growing and learning and healing. IF we did accept the abuse after we were in the relationship, or if we thought we could “fix” it and all would be lovely, whatever our part, large or small, in the abuse continuing after we first “felt” the pain of the abuse, then we need to work on that. But, each of us is unique and our abusers are unique, though there are some general patterns in both abusers and victims, it doesn’t mean that we are identical at all.
I “beat myself up” and “berated” myself for ignoring the red flags that I DID SEE and did KNOW were not good signs of hic character. I deliberately brushed them away and ignored them. That wasn’t smart on my part, and if I had NOT ignored them I would have saved myself a lot of grief, but I cna’t go back and change that now, so beating myself up isn’t productive to my healings. Accepting that I did what I did, IS productive in my healing. I am now able to VALIDATE MY OWN REALITY. Even if I am the ONLY one validating that reality, I am learning to trust myself and MY intuitions. In the future, if my intuition tells me there is “something odd” about this relationship I will LISTEN and JUDGE that for myself, rather than let my emotions over rule my brain and my gut.
No one has a right to rape me. But, if I (well, years ago anyway when I was young LOL) walked naked down a dark street in the middle of the night in a “bad neighborhood” I would be more LIKELY to BE raped than if I had stayed fully clothed at home in my house with the doors locked. BUT EVEN IF I DID WALK NAKED no one has the RIGHT to rape me. It would still be a CRIME for someone to rape me.
So all I am doing now is realizing that even though no one has the RIGHT to abuse me, if I leave myself open to abuse someone WILL FILL THAT OPENING and abuse me. I am, for ME learning to fill up my own openings to abuse.
To me it i sn’t about laying percentage of blame here or there it is about healing the results of the abuse and learning how to prevent it in the future. For me, I did not have appropriate boundaries, but the abuse of that lack of boundaries was 100% on him. If that makes any sense at all.
I’m glad you are on the healing road, and welcome back.
OxDrover,
I am glad you clarified that the presence of red flags and those red flags being willfully ignored by sociopaths’ victims is not universal.
For me, such was not the case, which essentially everyone who intimately knew my S and me (not that anyone really knew the S intimately; they just thought they did) has validated. Thank God.
Because it’s nice to be validated that things aren’t all in one’s head. Especially after having been mindf****d by the sociopath. He really did do those terrible things (although he tried to convince me he did not), and there’s really no way I could have known.
And, metaphorically, I was not in a dangerous neighborhood. It didn’t seem that way anyway; obviously in hindsight I was.) I met the S at work; he was then a respiratory therapist. A very competent one. Highly respected. His ex-wife said he was a great guy. His mother even said he was her favorite. I was walking in Beverly Hills.
But, still, I got raped. A stranger was hiding, he leaped out at me, he was so strong, he had a gun, I could not fight him.
In the future I will be more careful for sure. However for me the challenge will be to not be too careful. To not erect too high a fence. After such an immense betrayal it’s hard for me now not to be suspicious of every seemingly nice person I meet.
Recently I went to a meeting where one of the speakers was a man who seemed very nice but reminded me of my husband. He was very good-looking, biggish nose, full lips, nice hair, wearing a tight-fitting shirt that showed off his muscular physique. The guy obviously knew he was attractive, you could tell by the way he dressed. But still, he might not have been a psychopath, could have been but probably wasn’t, and yet there I was, thinking he was, thinking I hate him, thinking he probably cheats on his wife, he’s probably a liar and on and on until tears came to my eyes when I realized this is what the S has done to me.
Dear Gillian,
Yes, they do “rape” us emotionally if not literally. They steal our “security” from us. How many red flags they put up, and how clearly we see them (or ignore them) is not universal, but I think that most ofus agree that we have seen some of those red flags and for one reason or another chosen to gloss over, explain away, or ignore those red flags. There is the rare man, though, that does not wave any discernable red flags.
For the person who does NOT perceive any red flags, and gets hit blindsided out of “nowhere” I think the biggest thing would be your loss in your own confidence for the human race. The man who appears to be “mr wonderful” and one day the FBI shows up at your door to arrest him for serial killings. (Or whatever the crime is). My X-BF had red flags all over him, cheated on wife etc. and I still didn’t pay attention to those warnings. I should have. I will in the future. I have learned to be atuned and not ignore.
The RARITY of the totally “masked” P is such a rare case though, my dear, that I think what you need to do to “arm” yourself is to READ AND LEARN about the “usual” red flags, and set good boundaries for yourself. Before you get involved deeply with anyone, investigate him/them. It may sound screwy but let’s say you were dating someone that you thought was really nice, and you said “John, you know I really like you a lot, but I got burned so badly by my x husband, would you mind terribly if I had a background check run onyou? I will also have one done for my background if you like, before we take this relationship to a higher level.” I think any honorable person would be fine with that, if not, what have you lost? Sort of like having an STD check done befsore you become sexually intimate with someone.
I can’t imagine marrying someone and NOT having an STD check or being sexually intimate in these days and times without an STD check. I had “known” (or thought I knew) my XBF-P for about 10 years before I dated him, but I really didn’t know all that much about him until it was too late, I was deeply hooked. NO MORE of that.
I am not paranoid, but I am CAUTIOUS. I would advise everyoneto be cautious in this day and time. Just as I would not play “Russian Roulette” with a gun, I am not going to play “STD roulette” with SEX either. I want to KNOW what I am getting into before I make the plunge.
Sometimes we can spot a Narcissist by the way they dress and deport themselves, so your “intuition” may very well be right on about the man doing the speaking. Your over reaction to him, however, I think is because you are still “raw.”
Sometimes some people who were victims because of their own non-existent boundaries and low self esteem, once the abuser is out of their lives become fixated in not acknowledging that they DID ignore boundaries and red flags. For those people, like me for example, for me and for that person who did ignore boundaries and red flags, healing can’t be completed and you can’t LEARN what you need to prevent getting attached to the next one UNLESS you admit to yourself that you DID IGNORE the red flags and that you DID allow continued abuse even after it became apparent. That you DID keep on hanging on to malignat hope that he would start being “nicer” etc. That is part of the healing process for those of us who were not TOTALLY bllindsided.
It was probably the HARDEST PART of coming to this healing road for me to ADMIT to myself (much less others) that I kept on allowing the abuse from EVERY one of the Ps in my family and from my X-BF. In fact, I was very arrogant and thought that I was “superior” to those women who let a man repeated beat the crap out of them and kept going back and going back. But I was NOT superior to those women, I did the same darned thing, the only difference was it was my bio-father, my mother, and my son who were emotionally and sometimes physically beating the crap out of me. DUH?~~~
My own little “dose of humility” was very painful to me. It reminded me of the passage in the Bible where the very pious and hypocritical Pharisee was standing in the Temple praying and a poor, sinful tax collector walked in and humbled himself before God, and the Pharisee raised his hypocritical and pious face up to God and said “Thank you God that I am not a sinner like that man” and the poor publican said “Have mercy on me a sinner Lord” Of course the Pharisee was arrogant and anything but pleasing to God, the humble sinner who reptented and acknowledged his own faults was acceptable to God. Looking back my attitude was just like the Pharisees’ “thank God I am not abused like that woman, that I am better and I would NEVER let my husband hit me” etc. Just my son, or my mother, or my biiological father. But not my husband! LOL
Now, looking at myself from a less arrogant position, I realize that I contributed to my own abuse by staying there after it started. I recognize the red flags that I actually SAW then but ignored. So now, because of the growth of myself, I am I think much more likely to spot a red flag, AND I WILL ACT ON IT BY PUSHING THAT PERSON OUT OF MY LIFE.
The best indicator of future behavior is universally recognized as past behavior. If a man has cheated on previous wife (wives) (showing a pattern of cheating) RED FLAG If a person is rude and hateful to others, they will probably be rude and hateful to me eventually RED FLAG. If a person is dishonest with his employer/friends/anyone They are likely to be dishonest with me RED FLAG If a person lies to me or others RED FLAG If a person tries to control me RED FLAG If a person is constantly or chronicly Angry RED FLAG If a person is an enabler with his children or friends RED FLAG and so on.
When someone lies to me, RED FLAG. One strike and you are OUT. I’m not talking here “social white lies” where you say you have “other plans” when you really don’t to get out of going to a party you aren’t intersted in attending and you don’t want to say “No, John, I don’t want to go to your house, I despise your kids and your wife’s cooking is awful.” LOL
I’m talking about adults lying to agrandize themselves, or to cover up for wrong doing.
It’s all a learning process, this healing road, IMHO, and in the process I am learning that I am worthy, I don’t deserve to be abused, I will no longer allow myself to be abused, and I can set reasonable boundaries without guilt. I don’t hve to walk on egg shells around anyone in order not to “hurt their feelings” and it is okay to take care of my needs first.
Those are some powerful concepts that somehow I never really grasped and put into PRACTICE before. Some of it had to do with my upbringing and my family of origin’s teachings, but all along I HAD A CHOICE and I made some poor choices, but I am not beating myself up for those poor choices any longer and I can’t change the past, I am just LEARNING FROM THEM and improving my choices today. Godspeed my dear!
I repeat Oxy’s words of not having appropriate boundaries when being involved with ANY of my Xs, not only PDIs. I tolerated too much nonsense, too much lack of respect, too much abuse. Whether the abuse was covert or blatant I still allowed a man to treat me like a dirty dish rag. I would eventually confront them for their horrible behavior, but I ALWAYS forgave them too damn easily.
Not any longer. I’ve learned waaay too much about myself, not only from sharing on this wonderful website, but by reading the gospel, praying for guidance and strength in overcoming serious emotional damage, but also through a reorganization (and reconditioning) of my OWN thoughts, ideas, behavior and attitudes. I deprogrammed myself intensively so I will STRIVE to no longer be susceptible to abusive people, whether they are lovers, friends, family, or even strangers on the street.
And yes, Gillian, you were a victim of manipulation, control, mindf*****, and abuse. Never doubt that we sincerely believe and support your confirmation. As we’ve been victims ourselves.
I have implemented titanium boundaries to ward of people who don’t necessarily need to respect me, but I do expect them to treat me with civility. I treat people much more than just with civility, but that’s me. I like and enjoy being friendly, happy and helpful to strangers. But the very second I consider myself being treated harshly, cruelly, spitefully, hatefully, with disregard for my own feelings, my own personal self, I confront and/or move on. Life’s too damn precious to waste on losers without hearts or souls.
And, Gillian, I think it’s superb that you’re being able to “out” predators that may be in your midst. You’re just allowing your beloved awakened intuition and your own harrowing history with a psycho to take charge in a concerted effort to protect you from further damage. I really doubt you will become paranoid or bitter. It’s impossible for people who are genuinely loving, compassionate folks to let self destructive baggage take root in their hearts, minds and spirits.
Give yourself time and keep on sharing with the LoveFraud fellowship, learning priceless knowledge regarding predators and also learning the fundamental truth of who YOU are and loving yourself truly, deeply, madly. As that happens, as Melanie Toni says on her website, the “Laws of Attraction” will bring to you more fantastic bounty than you ever thought was possible. I can say this as it is happening for me right now, this very day, this very moment and I am so very grateful for the lessons I’ve been allowed to learn not only from loving psychos but from loving the Lord and rejoicing as the Holy Spirit moves ever shining within my heart.
Oxy!!!1!!!
haha…just wanted to respond to Gillian with some positive affirmation/validation as you know, that’s what we do!!
Have a wondeful rest of Saturday, cause I’m going to dinner then a walk on the lake boardwalk. It’s a lovely day here in the Pacific Northwest and I need to take full advantage of the summer time as the autumn and winters are awesome, but so much snow!…haha.
***HUGGLES***