Most of the time we spend with sociopaths is spent in confusion. They tell us that they love us, while they cheat on us and take our money. They tell us that everything will be wonderful while our lives are falling apart. They tell us they’re sorry and will never do it again, yet they do it again, and again, and again.
We ask ourselves—what in the world is going on here?
They explain it all away. The explanation seems to make sense. But something still isn’t right, and they still don’t stop the behavior that makes us believe we are losing our minds.
There must be a reason. We wonder if they’re depressed, or bipolar, or they have low self-esteem. We’ve been told that they were abused as children. They overindulge in alcohol or drugs, and we’re sure that if they can only overcome their addiction, they’ll change.
It never happens.
We can’t figure it out.
The words that fit the behavior
Then someone says, “It sounds like he (or she) is a sociopath.” Or maybe they even use the word “psychopath.”
Sociopath! They’re the guys on The Sopranos.
Psychopath! They’re all serial killers.
But something tells us to do more research, so we go online. We buy a book. And there they are, the people who are driving us insane, perfectly described in the symptoms of a sociopath.
At Lovefraud, we hear it all the time:
“He’s got every symptom on the list!” “The description fits her to a T!”
Finally, we have a name for that person’s problem. He or she is a sociopath. A psychopath. An antisocial.
Finally, it all makes sense. The lies, the emptiness, the remorselessness, the evil. There is a reason. It is not us. It is a personality disorder.
Naming the disorder makes all the difference. Finally, we begin to understand what we are dealing with. This allows us to begin recovery.
Learn about them in school
Why do we spend so much time in confusion? Because there is no education program about this personality disorder for the general public.
I remember a story from the tsunami that struck Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and Thailand on December 26, 2004. A vacationing family was on the beach there when the ocean suddenly receded. The little girl of the family had just finished studying tsunamis in school, and learned that the receding ocean meant that a wall of water would soon come crashing into the shore. She told her family, and they escaped to higher ground.
Sociopaths cause personal tsunamis for all of their victims. The sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials of the world cause a huge percentage of all human pain, damage and devastation, yet most of the population does not know they exist. Why? Why don’t we learn about these predators in school? If we did, when we saw the symptoms, we could escape.
Arguing over terminology
Part of the problem with trying to educate people about these predators is that the mental health professionals do not agree on what to call it. First it was moral insanity. Then it was psychopath. Then it was sociopath. Then it was antisocial personality disorder.
The professionals can’t agree on how to define and diagnose the disorder, either. The American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), is supposed to be the bible for clinicians. I find its description of antisocial personality disorder to be vague and difficult to understand.
Dr. Robert Hare’s description of the symptoms of a psychopath—the term he uses—is easier to understand, and the test he developed has been consistently shown to be useful in predicting recidivism among criminals. But Hare’s criteria and evaluation are resisted by many psychiatrists. From what I’ve heard, the basis for much of the disagreement is political.
Mental health profession should come to agreement
I believe this lack of agreement is a travesty, and the professionals are actually contributing to the confusion in which the predators operate. In a way, that makes the mental health professionals complicit in the havoc wreaked by the sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials—whatever we call them.
Lovefraud calls on the professional associations to solve this problem. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry—please, come to an agreement.
Make a decision. Define this disorder. Publicize the symptoms. Let the general public learn what to look out for.
It would help all of us keep the sociopaths/psychopaths/antisocials, the human tsunamis, from upending our lives.
Indiechick:
You’re exactly right, it is a cat and mouse game. And the ONLY way you win is by staying away, NC, do not respond. It is imperative to your mental health. But I’ll warn you, it is not easy.
These people are sick and NOTHING good can EVER come from a relationship with them. They are heartache waiting to happen, at best. At worst, there is great personal and financial devastation, they can slander, demean and berate you and cause you to question your own sanity. And you also have the safety of your daughters to worry about. The sooner you break off this relationship, the better. Get away, and stay away, as quickly as possible. Do not see him, speak to him on the phone, answer his e-mails, or anything. It is a twisted and perverse game they play, one you don’t want to participate in. Read here, and you’ll see…they are all reading from the same manual, and the behaviors are very similar. Oh…and Indiechick, they are pathological liars “he is the lie”. So do not believe any of the lies or manipulations from him. Good luck, girl, it is a tough road ahead of you; but trust me (and everyone else here can attest to this), it is a road to healing and sanity.
Dear indiechick,
I would like to also give my welcome to you, and you did NOTHING “Wrong” in checking out his stories. If he had not been lying through his teeth, you would have only proved he was truthful. That’s the thing they do to us is to tell us lies and expect us to believe their WORD ONLY when our GUT tells us it is lies—OUR GUTS ARE RIGHT.
ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR GUT, then check it out.
ALWAYS LISTEND TO HOW THEY ACT, and not their words.
And NWV is also correct, it iIS an addiction. But we can kick it with NO CONTACT—and sometimes that feels like COLD TURKEY, but it is the ONLY way to kick the habit, just like it was Heroin or Alcohol. Any TASTE of it puts us right back to square one.
AT first it will be “physical” no contact, and you may still think about him 24/7, but eventually the continual thinking about him will subside, and then there will come a time when you can think about him, but not with the desire for him, or the anger, or the pain, it is just like the script to an old movie you once saw, you can tell someone else the plot but not feel the emotions you felt when you “lived” that horror story!
I’m glad you are here, you have found a wonderful place.
NWView
Wow…you just saved me lots of writing in your post of 1:24 pm. I could almost lift that paragraph (with the exception, of course, of the dog poo…that’s random) and call it mine. Same with you, Indiechick. Of course, there are other paragraphs here that I could pop in, too.
I think once the S has steamrolled over all his boundaries, he’s not interested in putting on the brakes anymore and all bets are off.
One of these days I hope to be a source of consolation and knowledge for others who are still involved with these people. One site that I had checked oot months ago when I first suspected he was lying to me consistently was called Eyes For Lies. It talks about microexpressions and how you can tell if someone is lying to you.
Weird thing with my (ugh…I hate to call him “mine”) SP is that he could lie while looking me straight in the eye, swearing on the bible (even though he considered himself a “christian”). But I started noticing inconsistencies with his words, emotions and facial expressions. When he would call me crying and apologizing I noticed that his nose was not stuffed up. When you sob and cry, the way he was supposedly doing, your nose would stuff up horribly. After all these crocodile tears he then went on (with an unstuffed head) to tell me out of the blue that he was sexually molested by a friends brother at the age of 8 and thats why he has these problems. I listened to that message (yea…he left THAT on a cel message) and thought to myself, “after 3 years he finally tells me THIS….and its with such calmness and coolness…emotionless almost…as if he were talking about how he stubbed his toe or something. The words didnt fit with how a normal person, who has been repressing or hiding that information for years, would react. He also told me I’m the only person who he’s told…RIGHHHHT.
I have most of his recent voicemails saved on something called youmail.com
Its a site which downloads your voicemails into your email. I am keeping these for when he calls and leaves messages. I listen to them to hear inconsistencies. Its also proof of how whacked he is if I’m ever called to question by his buddies or anyone else.
Indi,
Just a couple comments.
Sexual dysfunction is a part of sociopathy and in the archives Donna wrote a very good thread and it went something like with them it is an “anyone and anything” kind of dysfunction because of course it is about power and their game, not about love. Can’t remember the date or title, maybe someone else on here can.
Also, remember the reason you are at such a disadvantage in the cat and mouse game is because you have invested emotions, he has invested none. It’s just an emotionless game for him with him taking pleasure in watching you squirm and feeling no regret.
I don’t know if the surveillance is legal or not, so before you post much be aware that he can search and find what you post if he knows or can guess your screen name. Don’t give him any ammunition to use against you, EVER. He may use whatever means he can against you either to draw you back in or in retaliation.
Try to be more at peace by not buying into finding out everything he’s done, it will only drive you crazy because they are seemingly limitless at the havoc they can create in secret. How can, why do they do this to you? Because they can, it’s their ego addiction that makes their world go ’round. Sounds like you know enough already.
If you can, try to focus on you now, not him. Welcome and good luck.
Benz
some very good points….
from oxy
“AT first it will be “physical” no contact, and you may still think about him 24/7, but eventually the continual thinking about him will subside, and then there will come a time when you can think about him, but not with th”
from eyes.. LOL….i think the same when i see some long posts that experienced what i did…how it saved me typing..and p.s…..i truly believe it wasnt dog poop…i found it months after he was gone….i think he was web camming…eeewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“I think once the S has steamrolled over all his boundaries, he’s not interested in putting on the brakes anymore and all bets are off.”
from benz:
“the cat and mouse game is because you have invested emotions, he has invested none. It’s just an emot” and
Try to be more at peace by not buying into finding out everything he’s done, it will only drive you crazy because they are seemingly limitless at the havoc they can create in secret. How can, why do they do this to you? Because they can, it’s their ego addiction that makes their world go ’round. Sounds like you know enough already.
sooooooo true
and indie i hate to belabor the point, but since you asked, he was also a compulsive masturbator and i mean a compulsion as id NEVER knew could be real…how many times i walked in as he was setting down nude for a session at his computer…or with his pants down around his ankles with something stuck up his rear, in front of his computer, not knowing his front door was unlocked and accused me of sneaking up on him…….
i never really discuss this because i am sooooo ashamed that i let him convince me that this would all stop when he moved in……..
they are whacked creatures for sure
i am actually laughing at myself as i write this…because if it hdnt happenned to me i wouldnt believe that anyone could be so dumb and fall for it much less me…..im not kidding ..im at a point know where i am truly laughing so hard…..i can say there is No other place i would even feel safe sharing this……..rotflmao……im even laughing at myself harder than i did at the dimitri character….and it feels sooooo good
and did anyone notice i think i have learned to cut and paste…yes there are some of us out here that still arent computer litterate
oh and benz, it is funny because many times when id ask him why people would cheat on someone they love..or any similar question..his pat answer was always…”because they can”
speaking of boundaries, it was almost like he confused me sometimes with one of his kids…cause he would scold me for drawing a line in the sand and when he would get to it..instead of holding my ground, i would back up the line……i did this out of fear that if i didnt he would leave me…he always had one foot out the door and this was His manner of control……i could write for days about his interactions with ex wives and kids…….maybe another conversation will trigger that….i feel we really do learn from sharing each others stories
im still laughing at myself… again wish we could all meet for a picnic or pool party sometime………terri
Good point Benzthere. Because they hooked us into a game of illusion, they know their rules upfront, we dont, we are at a disadvantage already. In addition to that, they are careful not to invest themselves emotionally in a relationship, that is why my exN’s words never matched up with his actions and so we are at a disadvantage that way as well.
Indie, I went on the investigator route, I had even phoned a private detective and was considering having him checked. If I could do more i would have done, as Iwas itching to know what he had on his phone and other places. I checked up on him plenty of times, but I just couldnt catch him, I even sat outside his place for 2 hours in a friends wig and in her car. But he was driving me crazy and dropping hints to make me jealous and he was into bdsm, it was one of the first things he told me and I wasnt sure, because it just isnt my thing and quite honestly I couldnt understand what he got out of it.
What I learnt though, is that I was waiting for evidence. His crazy making behaviour was enough for me realise that I didnt need evidence, he was making me feel very insecure, and that was enough.
Hi,
I was reading the comments here concerning lying and I know for me that I was lied to so often by a friend, that I doubted my own sanity for so long. Constantly having to prove what he said. Until I finally gave up and finding help here and a few other places, realized that you can’t reform a liar. My sister has a quote, the truth needs no accusers. It’s very appropriate. I’ve learned one lie always leads to another. How sad for those have who to lie their way through life.
On another note, I’d like anyone here to maybe put a label of sorts on this woman I know. I’ve known her about 5 1/2 years. She rented an apartment for about two weeks. She found out her 3rd husband was seeing a stripper at night while she taught night school and he impregnated the stripper. So she moved him away from that area. But it wasn’t enough of what he did, to deter her from continuing her lifestyle with him. She ended up getting pregnant herself in the two weeks they were here.
She was devastated. She was 42 at the time. I kind of felt sorry for her, but figured she should know by now that having sex makes babies. But she was in love or so she told me. She had to tell me what an incredible sex life they had. I said it couldn’t have been all that great if he was having sex with strippers.
But anyway, that began a trip of sorts these last 5 years. She ended up divorcing him after she had to have him arrested. After he got out of jail, he started calling her and they wanted to have sex again, but didn’t want to commit adultery, so they married. She didn’t want her family to know she was married again, so they did everything in secret. In the mean time she was going to Match looking for someone. She found the one she wanted.
She was still married at the time, but moved closer to the man she met. She rented a place and let her estranged husband, (by that time) move in, but was having sex with the man she met on Match. She ended up divorcing her 3rd husband who was also her 4th husband. Her plans were to eventually marry the man she met. The day she thought he was going to marry her, he married another woman, because, as he told her, he needed insurance and my friend wasn’t working at the time, and couldn’t provide it. She has believed everything these men tell her and some.
In the years I’ve known her, she has moved about 15 times. She holds several masters degrees and is a behavioral specialist along with teaching college and such. She’s not what you’d call dumb as far as intelligence goes, but she buys into every word every man tells her. I don’t know what she’s looking for but I don’t think she’s going to find it. She is man crazy and has very little to show for her years of living.
She currently got a job in a prison and almost immediately fell in love with an inmate, who once he is released has to be deported back to his country in Central America. She has plans to marry him and move there with him. She has two small children and has dragged them everywhere. This inmate is 23 years younger but she’s never felt like this before. I told her I’ve heard the same words concerning every man she’s been with. She argues and says it’s never been like this. I’ve been a sounding board but can’t relate so I let her talk. I think the only reason she keeps coming back is because I’m a constant.
I’ve finally told her I’m not the friend for her. I can’t relate to her lifestyle. She has no problem proclaiming love for this inmate, but two weeks ago she met the man from Match for a night of sex. She’s made statements that I wonder where they are coming from, such as with the man from Match. She was living in his house at the time and said she didn’t care who he had sex with as long as he came home to her every night.
I sometimes wonder if it’s me and maybe I’m just too straight laced and up tight. But I could never just wonder around willy nilly looking for men. I told her I just can’t understand where she’s coming from. She seems to think I’m jealous of her because she keeps getting a man. I told her I don’t need a man. I’ve wondered how to classify her. I’ve never been around a woman who falls in and out of love constantly. And now with a prisoner, who if she isn’t careful is going to get her fired. They are kissing and writing letters back and forth. I don’t think it would bother her if she did get fired. She seems to thrive on this lifestyle. I can’t follow her and just don’t support her in her endeavors. Her children suffer as they are extremely hyper and I think it’s because of the way they’ve lived. There is no constancy in their life. She refuses to see this. I’ve given up trying. She’s just going to have to pick up the pieces herself. She just can’t seem to see that she isn’t getting results with the way she lives.
One minute she’s hating her children and telling them she’d like to kill them and the next she’s looking for a father for them. I really want to wash my hands of her and I see it happening. But I’ve wondered from her actions what disorder she might have. This can’t be normal to live like she does. She has the knowledge and education to command a high salary and live quite nicely. She’s 48 and has nothing. And she doesn’t care. It’s like she is still a teenager and doesn’t want to quit. I thought I’d be a light for her, but she doesn’t want that light. She proclaims God in her life, but lives a very worldly existence as far as sex and relationships go. I don’t know if a woman’s husband would be safe with her around. I just know I’m reaching the end of my rope where she’s concerned.
Indie,
I think we have all been through the obsessive investigation stage. It is perfectly normal and necessary to find out the truth when you know you are being deceived. All P’s indulge in this crazy making behaviour of deceive and deny.
The only way you can stop this cycle of madness is to start NO CONTACT. As long as you have any connection to him, the mind games will continue. In fact, he will enjoy driving you crazy as it reaffirms the power he has over you. You will never be able to see things clearly unless you cut the connection.
Getting this person out of your mind will take a long time even after the physical contact has begun. I’ve read that we obsess because a normal, logical mind cannot make any sense of a P’s behaviour and so we search frantically and repeatedly for some kind of explanation. Eventually, when the fog clears ( when you STOP listening to him) you will be able to come to terms with the fact that you will never have an explanation. He will never make any sense.
One other word of warning. Resist the temptation to take the investigation too far and get yourself into trouble. He will have no qualms about reporting you to the police for stalking and making you look like the nutcase!
From what you have written, I think you have more than enough proof of what a slime ball he is, so now is the time to take back control of your mind and your life.
Swallow
Hi Apt/Mgr
“On another note, I’d like anyone here to maybe put a label of sorts on this woman I know.”
Just off the top of my head, um…a big ol’ mess?