By | April 11, 2010 108 Comments

New York book club to discuss ‘The Sociopath Next Door’

The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us, by Martha Stout, Ph.D., will be the topic of discussion at a New York City Barnes & Noble Book Store on April 22, 2010, at 7 p.m.

The event is sponsored by the Non-Fiction Reading Club at the Barnes & Noble at 86th and Lexington Avenue. All are welcome.

Event announcement provided by a Lovefraud reader.

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Quantum Solace

I like the fact that the book is being discussed by the “Non-Fiction Reading Club” – Ha! Goes to show you that you just can’t make this stuff up.

I have to get a hold of that book and read it. I know it’s a good one.


Quantum Solace, it is a fantastic read. I was able to absorb the information, academically, but I still cannot wrap my head around the fact that spaths do not have a conscience or empathy and can mimic normal human emotion so well that they’re able to move through society without detection.


I loved this book. It clarified everything and I read it in a couple of sittings because I couldn’t put it down. There is a terrifying story about a spath therapist and what she did to “block” progress in the client who was beginning to get better (and possibly be a threat)

The thought of a spath ‘in charge’ of the sick or elderly makes me want to curl up and die.

Hideous, chilling….the stuff of nightmares. I’m so glad I was healthy enough to get away. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Ox Drover

I just ordered a copy of this book to send to a friend. He is a minister and a very loving man, but really has little idea about psychopaths, and I think this particular book would be best for him to start learning about them.

I’d be interested to be at that “book club” discussion. Wonder what all they would say if they hadn’t had contact with a pscychopath.


What a wonderful thing for you to do, OxDrover. Most genuine people on The Path have a strong belief in the goodness of mankind, and that everyone can be redeemed. I feel strongly that everyone has the “option” of redemption, but it’s not a mandate. For a person who truly Walks The Path, the very idea that someone out there has no empathy, remorse, or conscience is incomprehensible – it just can’t be. What better target can there be? Your gift will be enlightening and valuable.

Ox Drover

This man is a wonderful man and through our discussions through the years he has come to realize already that not everyone who pretends to walk the path does so. I just thought that this particular book would speak to him though.

One of the nice things about the internet is the availability of cheap used but almost like new books. I’m a book a holic myself and I purchase books for others that I think they would enjoy. It is an inexpensive way for me to Be “generous” and to share with my friends who are at a distance.

jane smith

hi there – i have been lurking here on this forum a long time. i live near this bookstore and have read this book. i am really curious about going to this discussion.

the sociopath i knew reached a new low yesterday. he sent a private facebook email to a mutual friend of ours (she was his friend on facebook – i do not use facebook) and the email said that they regretted to inform her that he had passed away 2 months before and she and any friends were welcome to send condolences to an email address given. (that email address given was his own – i recognized it, she had never seen it) the email was signed by his parents. what parents know their 39 yr old childs facebook and email passwords?!
then his entire facebook acct was deleted.

my friend freaked out and contacted me. of course i was worried he really was dead, but once she showed me the email, and shared some other things he had told her in their occiasional correspondence (lies), i realized he must of been so bored that he would pretend he was dead to see what kind of sympathy ’emails’ he would get. good lord.

i have basically reached the point where i no longer get angry. i honestly believe at this point he cannot help it. even these nasty horrible events he cannot help.
thankfully i have been NC almost 2 years!!

thanks to everyone who participates in this forum, it has really helped me.


Wow! That IS really a low!


Jane, I sure hope you get the chance to go to the book discussion. It would be great to have some “real” life representation from Lf!
Neveragain- I’m with ya on the comment “That is really a low!”
My 21 y.o. spath son did something very similar. Unbeknownst to me, he borrowed my phone 6 mos or so ago, and text his x girlfriend pretending to be me, his mom saying that he had died in an accident. He went on to say to her that “Johnny REALLY loved you, and probally would still be with us if he had not been so devastated when you broke up with him!!
She knew immediately it was a huge lie as she knew there is no way I would have said anything like that ! EVIL DORKS they are!!

Ox Drover

From their keyboards to God’s ears.


I LOVE this book! It helped me immensly with the begining of my still ongoing recovery. Three plus years ago after surviving two horrific events where my son’s father attempted to kill me, assaulted my daughter and kidnapped my son, my victims of crime advocate suggested I pick up this book. As I read I used a yellow highlighter to mark all of the characteristics that my spath has and I will say I have a very colored book. She discribes in the book how there are different degrees of the sociopath some worse than others, well my spath had them all covered! Oh and I’m happy to say he is doing 94 yrs to life w/o perole in San Quentin!


I agree…..this was a eye opening book! I actually got it on CD….I borrow it out to ANY friend going on a roadtrip….
I’ts riveting and it shows you, from a non personal experience, but in the same way personal (as if we could all be that duped person)…..that HEY….they ARE next door…

Sounds like you’ve been through HELL…..and are on a healing journey…..
Lf is a healing place where so many of our stories mesh….I hope you continue to stick around and gain education and insight on what road we’ve been down… a sense….together.

I’m glad you and your kids are safe and will be for a Loooonnngggg time….at least that is a comfort for you…..San Quentin……not a bad place to be for a sociopath to spend his life!!!!


jane smith

Sabrina, i am sorry that happened to you. Mine has pulled this similiar drama behavior many many times. He really is the boy that cried wolf. I count 8 ‘suicide’ attempts from mine. I am sorry this person is your son so it is harder to get away from.
I will be sure to report in on the book discussion if i can make it. In fact maybe i should review my book to prepare!


Death is final……WHAT, do they plan on staying dead?
I know spaths behaviors are off….but faking death?

I can’t imagine what they say when you ‘stumble’ across them in the ‘grave’.

The spath told some peeps that I HAD DIED.
That one always boggled me……
I ran into two men who were so surprised and pleased to see me……it was very uncomfortable, they said..No, NO EB… don’t understand, we were told you had passed away!
Can you imagine how stupid I felt at that moment…..kinda like a fake reincarnation…..that I WAS NEVER AWARE OF.

I can ‘see’ them lying about so many things….BUT DEATH????

What ignorance… try and ‘set’ someone else up for this fall.



Jane, and EB-Good morning ladies! Jane, I would LOVE to see how the others at the book review respond to the notion of s-pathy and I hope they are referred to LF for further research. Maybe you could print out some info from here.

Jane- I too am sorry for you having to see him die a whopping 8 times, whew! its like- going,,,going.. dang he ain’t gone YET???? lol
My x spath husband tried the fake suicide- I was freakn out but my dad wasnt falling for the BS- he said YOU tell them to CALL you WHEN he’s DEAD! I’m still waiting……………….

SAD THING is they are already pretty much DEAD.. He (x spath) is dead to ME anyways, so taking it to next level of flat lining wouldn’t change much. lol

The fake pity play of See me Die- NOT!!!! shows the spaths RIDICULOUS lack of impulse control , his over the top obsession with self, and complete LACK of regard for others.

Ox Drover

Dear Jane Smith,

I am glad that you are here! I do hope you can make the book discussion group as I am curious about the way others receive the information.

No offense intended at all, but your comment to Sabrina “I am sorry this is your son, so it is harder to get away” struck me as WRONG–getting away from ANY psychopath is DIFFICULT and painful, but NECESSARY, no matter WHAT the relationship is….we can’t deal with them without being DAMAGED by the contact. They are kind of like “battery acid” and will eat into you just from being in contact. Until you get and stay away from the Psychopath, you will continue to burn and hurt! Only when you are AWAY can you treat the wounds and heal the injuries and every time we have contact again we end up with NEW WOUNDS or old ones reopened!

Again, glad you are here! God bless.


I caught the rundowns on it…..
Keep the family secrets…..dahling…..
Wouldn’t want YOU to be the one to ‘out’ me…..
I’ll deny it to my death……

They are sick, sick, sick !!!!!


this is from The Way of the Horse, by Linda Kohanov p.102- she does woek known as ‘Epona’ – equine facilitiated therapy.

in it she is talking about rage within a dominance/submission paradigm (or serf/ master), which i posit is the pradigm we are in with spaths (who i think i will call ppaths from now on. i think i am done with the ‘less threatening’ sound of sociopath. the ppath of my aquaintaince would have eaten me for lunch and not given a second thought – so she is now and forever dubbed as threatening)

‘…rage is an intensification of anger, a protective agent that has been so grossly misunderstood we’ve almost lost our ability to make sense of it.’
‘…this arcahic mentality (dominance/submission, master/sef, slave) doesn’t recognize the concept of personal boundaries, so it virtually outlaws (our) anger.’

for those of us who feel rage beyond any limit previously known must know that it IS apporpriate to what the ppaths try to do to us. ‘…to force them (slaves) to give up their lands, relinquish their culture, squlech their dreams, and work without just compensationis is a gross boundary violation solidified through relentless demoralization.’

it goes on to say – that ‘…concientious cowards (don’t take offense, i belong in this category) engage in drugs, sex adddictions, and other self destructive behaviour to diffuse a rage turned inward…’ HELLEW – my teen years.

and most beautifully: ‘…yet anger in its purest form is nothing less that a call for self-respect and integrity – and the courage to reiforce them both.’

one step


Did anybody watch that Dateline recently where that spath woman conned her children into helping her kill her husband and had them hide the secret for 25 years before her daughter finally came out and told her story? For years the woman told her daughter that if she wanted her to, she would “do the right thing.” Meaning, confess what she’d done. Well, when the daughter finally told police, the woman threw her daughter under the bus and said she just did it because her daughter was yelling at her to do it. All in all, the woman only got ten years in jail for 2nd degree manslaughter, even though she had planned the whole thing and viciously murdered her husband with her daughter watching. It’s sick, and it makes me sick that this world, this JUSTICE system, allows people to act this way, to do these heinous crimes, and the only people to really pay are the victims. Sociopaths can act so remorseful, place blame on others, and be so charismatic that they can be forgiven of even murder by our so-called justice system.


I really hope you can make it to this book discussion…..
I would LOVE to attend this!!!!
Keep us posted!

And SPREAD the word!!!!


jane – having endured three ‘deaths’, all I can say is @#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#

and may they all rot.


one step

I relate to what you say:

drugs, sex adddictions, and other self destructive behaviour to diffuse a rage turned inward”

I have one hell of a call for self respect and integrity. I can’t seem to HOLD IT in relationship, let alone relationship with ppath. I lose it.,lost it

I’m researching real love vs addictive love
struggling with nighmares again and beginning to sob, cry feel the tears again. I really want him to appear on my doorstep begging forgiveness and you know even then I would kick him to the curb.

I want to love him back to feeling something….I know that’s the rage I have…that I cannot do anything except hope and pray he has another victim so I can escape. Lovely set of choices.l…there is a sick part of me who craves “changing him into a loving being” it’s addictive and an old pattern started by my parents!!!

I surrender, I am admitting I am powerless over my addiction….tears, sobbing, help me…I was in the hands of a psychopath and I think he is an amateur but with enough frustration he could kill, and I have not a hope in hell of meaning anything to him. That’s the same heartbreak I felt about my mother and my father..(they would never kill ) and it never crossed my mind that people could kill unless they were demented lunatics…not so..there are ppaths who cooly calmly kill, no problem.


bulletproof – get it all out girl…
I don’t remember, have you read the ‘betrayal bond’ and done the exercises? if not, might want to check it out.

love additiocn – we have to learn – if they do us wrong, and there isn’t an immediate change in action, true contrition and apology then it means nothing. even if you could love him into feeling something HE’S STILL DONE YOU BAD!

surrender (and the good news)and you are right, you have no control over him, but in the end you do have it over you. and YOU are worth the effort, YOU can change and learn and grow.


kim frederick

Dear Bulletproof, It may not FEEEEL like it, but you are in a really good place. Surrender IS key, because we keep banging our heads against the wall, wanting to have our way, and we can’t have our way, especially with spaths.

I don’t know if you are aware of this, or if it will help you, but they have on-line LAA meetings and forums. I visited a few times and read some very helpful things there, but already being familiar with the 12-steps, I decided to concentrate my energy here. If you’d like information on LA, it’s the place to go, and it explains the 12 steps, how to use them, and why they work. Best of luck to you, from one love junkie to another.

kim frederick

Let me just caution you, though. I don’t recommend SLAA, that is, sex and love addicts anonomous. Just LAA. I think in the other group your kind of like divided into two types: predator and prey.

jane smith

hi ox drover –
i totally agree with what you said. i was either living with, pining for, or being actively manipulated by my spath for 20 years. so i do realize they dont have to be related for it to be ‘easier’ to get away from. i guess in the last 2 years i am just so thankful there were no children, or that there was no reason i had to be in contact with him. i am glad he is not my brother, child, father etc. However it really was just as nasty and drawn-out a process to get away from. he had his hooks in very very deep.

to kerisee – i saw that dateline.
it was so clear to me very quickly what that bitch was. and it was heartbreaking to me how she totally fff-ed her daughter up for life! i know the daughter is better now, but i cannot comprehend how she managed to get through the years. i try not to watch those datelines because they are so drama but i could not pass up that one!


Jane– I know! And she said she’s working through it in therapy. She wouldn’t come out and say her mom’s a sociopath, but I could see it in her eyes. When she confessed her part in it, I totally understood what prompted her to say “if you’re going to do it, just do it!” Because when you’re under a spath’s spell, you don’t think rationally, and not only that, but you know that they’re going to do what they’re going to do anyway. I have no doubt that her mom was waiting for her to pull the trigger because she didn’t want the blame. It’s no surprise that she railroaded her daughter. Anybody that could make a child witness something like that, then make them DIG HIM BACK UP and recover him again is a complete manipulating sociopath! That poor child. The sad thing is, and I told my husband this after watching that, is that sociopaths couldn’t care less if they killed somebody on a whim. It doesn’t affect them in the slightest. And I’m so scared that my husband’s ex will get it in her head (once she’s bored with her current man-situation) that I somehow stole her life (what she views as belonging to her) and that she will try to kill me. She didn’t want a divorce from my husband, and tried in every way to stop it (including getting pregnant), and when it was final, she married her second husband. That lasted 6 weeks. Then she slept around for a while and married her third husband. That lasted 7 weeks. She’s been with her current boyfriend on and off for a year, though she had another baby in the meantime, that she swore was his, but it came out African American, and she had to admit that there was a SMALL chance it would’ve been this other guy’s baby. She has since made that guy so mad that he hit her, and she had him arrested. She told the entire story to her 5 year old daughter. She’s been arrested twice by her current boyfriend when they were on the outs, and she’s had him arrested twice. Great enviro for the kids!!! Sheesh.


thanks one step

for tonight all I can say that makes any sense is: I SURRENDER. my heart is broken, I can’t stop crying. End of.

Kim Frederick

tis too shall pass. Yes I am familiar with all the 12 step stuff and co dependency, I am very educated about it all

but to night I FEEL IT and no book stands a chance against the feelings. heartbreak. wishing it were different. surrender. I cannot change the P into a loving human being…and I so wanted to and beleived love was all you need…I am so sad that I couldn’t reach his heart and make a difference. I am so sad he is a psychopath. it hurts so much right now.

Ox Drover

Dear Kerisee,

Yea I saw it. Don’t watch much TV but did start watching dateline a while back and yes, most of them are Psychopaths who are being profiled. I SO wish they would say THE WORD! But alas, they seem to show the “serial killer” side of psychopathy and not the “guy next door” emotional abuser. Oh, well, it is done for entertainment not so much real education for people.

Yea, you are right about the environment for the kids, and unfortuantely too many grow up like this. People no longer seem to “judge” behavior as “right or wrong” or “good or bad” but as “relative” to WHAT? Life choices!?! CRAPPOLA! Where is the MORAL COMPASS of our world. Does ANYone have one today? Our leaders don’t seem to have—prostitution, cheating on the wife with someone in South America, telling the little wifie you are GAY while you are governor of a state?
Going off and not paying child support? Driving drung/high and drowning your kids cause you ran down a boat ramp into a lake, killing your 3 year old to get back at your mother then telling police that you left her with a sitter and even when you knew she was dead went out SHOPPING with your BF. Pushing your wife off a cliff and missing the funeral to sign up for your singles group. Killing your preg wife and dumping her body, then going to play golf while everyone else looks for the missing woman? Makes me PUKE! Oh, and Susan Smith, drowning her babies because her BF didn’t like kids, and saying she was carjacked. How about Amy Fisher shooting MaryJo in the head! Sheesh, where does it END! They become celebraties for goodness sakes, and the robbers in Bervely Hills, high school kids for goodness sakes now fetted and on their own “reality show?” COME ON!!!! Famous and admired for being thieves!? Where is the puke emoticon when you need one? Where is the guilt or shame for being a crook, a murderer, a drug dealer, a thief? The only people who seem to me to feel shame are those of us who are or were abused.

OK that’s my RANT for today!


I read most of the posts. I am so thankful for this site. I have been involved w a pp for almost 25 yrs- and have his four children. The book by M Stout was instrumental to my awareness and breaking away- excellent primer for the mass culture. Bullet: wow can I relate! So awful for you, but your expression of true feelings really really helps me, I felt so alone and so stupid and scared for so long- still do, sometimes. and still cry that he is an irreparable pp. my focus is on our youngest who was markedly different almost from birth. so much like his father. then after i went thru the hell-storm w the pp and started researching- i knew that the baby boy is predisposed- sad sad sad but i am determined to re-pattern early and he is in counselling for it!


Good for you, Hope42moro! I think that we can all relate to Bullet’s feelings. I still cry, rage, and vent, and my ex spath is dead and buried over a year, now. The fallout will never be tallied, and I often feel so helpless and powerless, especially where my oldest son is concerned. Ugh….must plug along and move forward with some positive momentum.

Ox Drover

Dear Hope42moro,

I am so glad that you are getting counseling for your child. Have you visited Dr. Leedom’;s site, “Raising the At Risk child?” Or do you have her book “Just like his father”? BOTH are great helps for the mother who knows she has an AT RISK kid. How old is your son?

I hope that the counselors know what a psychopath is and are able to help you with your son. There are other mothers here with at risk children and children that the risk has been realized and the adult children have become psychopaths.

Dr. Leedom is raising an at risk son herself and is very good at what she does. Get in touch with her, if anyone can help you, I think it is Liane. She is my HERO!!!! ((((Hugs)))) and God bless you and give you wisdom you need for the task ahead.



thanks for that, I also feel when folk really express true feelings it helps me too. We can get very intellectual and even de sensitized with the overwhelm of events. I am blessed because I can let the feelings flow.

I love what you say:

sad sad sad but I am determined to re-pattern early and he is in counselling for it!

That says it all to me, about the type of person you are!! You are loving, kind , you love your child no matter what and you have HOPE!!! and you will not give up on him…that is the difference between a human being and a Psychopath, right there you can see it. Yet You(and I) Picked out the $%”””&****!!! and are now responsible! offspring and all.

Know that I support you in your efforts to help your child, I would love to hear of how it is going, and what you need in terms of support, USE LOVEFRAUD to comfort you and guide you, there are some wonderful people speaking here. Precious, wise unrepeatables!! you included.


Dear Bulletproof,

Thank you for saying, sharing this

“but to night I FEEL IT and no book stands a chance against the feelings. heartbreak. wishing it were different. surrender. I cannot change the P into a loving human being”and I so wanted to and beleived love was all you need”I am so sad that I couldn’t reach his heart and make a difference. I am so sad he is a psychopath. it hurts so much right now”

It is so painful to reach the moment you realize he is not someone who wants to change or believes he needs to change.

But I can tell you and promise you — love from within is all you need for yourself. You will be able to reach your own heart and make your own difference in your life going forward.

For now, you DO need to go through the emotions and very real saddness and disbelief…wow I remember my own awakening — its as suffocating as it is relieving…

Hugs to you… and gentle reminders to you that going through it will get you to the otherside – and that there is inner peace and security to be found in your journey ahead.

For now, today, it is surrendering and saving yourself. xo



Thanks so much, you have been there and come through it,then so can I. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW SOOTHING AND CALMING your message is to me right now, talk about saying the right thing at the right time. Thanks so much. Will get you back! I’m even smiling. thanks thanks thanks.

sharing the journey

I’m not sure how it started. What I came up against. It was beyond my level of comprehension. This doesn’t make me stupid—just unaware.

I loved this man—his funny ways. But I was also hesitant to some harmful ways e.g. his obsession with get rich quick schemes.

That’s what I was—just a get rich quick scheme. I was business—money. Fundraiser—spender—for what—a horse for Amber. He hated his mum. I did see the way that he would not kiss or hug her. But I just put it down to being a man. I also noticed that time on holiday his contempt for compassion. But I put that down to being a protestant with a different value system. I am catholic.

I valued our differences and trusted him implicitly not to harm me.

So why decide to harm me. Why destroy me. I started to become like him through the abuse. Is this what happened to him. If so it was horrendous. He was insane with power. Caught up in some fantasy of programming me like a robot. No empathy—indifference to me. Terrifying.

Was he always indifferent to suffering? I watched him with Hammy our hamster suffering and I could swear he felt it and hated it as much as me. He told me he killed a cow when young.. Confusion. He cried when Cagney our dog died. Feelings .

He was sadistic to me. Why? What had I done to make him so. How could I have been so wrong about someone. Married for 22 years. I took him back ten years ago on the understanding that he would change. He promised and he did and for 8 years I lived happily with him. Then bang. A sadistic monster. Hidden from me. Multiple relationships to be provided by me. The perfect woman—which I am not.

Me—whats left of me—Ptsd—and dissacociative states. Will I ever heal.

I have already posted my story elsewhere. Right now I need friends. So alone and lonely.

kim frederick

Littlewhitehorse, Yeah, I was confused by my Xspaths compassion for our pets, too, thinking if he was really a psychopath he wouldn’t have any empathy for them. I read just recently, however that it’s a myth, and that most P’s aren’t cruel to animals….so there ya go.

It will get better….and you will get better, and life will go on.
I’m sorry you’re feeling so lonely. We’re here. Keep coming back.

sharing the journey

Thanks for replying Kim. No one understands this. It is so hard. I really thought I was living with normal. Then bang–not normal. Too much to take in. I am getting treatment for trauma. But as said need friends. No one here understands . Too fantastic. I seem to get the impression that most of you live in the USA or Canada. I am from Scotland. Definately a global problem. xxx

Ox Drover

Dear Littlewhitehorse,

I am sorry that you don’t have anyone near you physically that does understand, and really, it IS A GLOBAL problem. Many of us don’t have friends close by either, so we use LF as a great place where we can be understood and comforted by people who DO get it. Hang around here and read the articles, and learn. Knowledgte is power and ther eis a great deal of support here and once you get involved here, in both GIVING and RECEIVING support, it will help. I can PROMISE YOU THAT!!!!

I’m glad you found this place, there are many of us who will stand up and TESTIFY under oath that this place saved our lives and sanity! Welcome! Sorry you qualify to “join” our club, but if you do qualify, this is the best place for help!!! God bless.

sharing the journey

Thanks oxy. I have been reading lovefraud for a while and many of the stories mirror mine. I am one of the unfortunate sods who qualified for psychiatric care after my exP. I was diagnosed psychotic for two years. I ended up challenging my psychiatrist that she could be wrong as I wasn’t getting any better under her treatment. She got me a psychologist two weeks later.

Since then I have found out that I have a vulnerability to dissacociate { spelling} under stress caused by childhood abuse and that I have paranoid ideation (not surprising as I was stalked for two years} after I put him out and anxiety.

At least I have a diagnosis I can work with.

I feel so vulnerable and needy. Something I hide from the children and it is new to me. I was strong and independant before my ex husband had a go at me. So right now I need a place where I can borrow strenght until I can go alone. I have been in no contact for two years. I always thought I was a quick learner, but that thing wanted to kill me. xxx


This is just a thought, as to why N/S/P/A’s might NOT be cruel (or sadistic) to animals, but WILL be cruel or sadistic to people.

I think when they are cruel (or sadistic) it gives them a POWER RUSH . . a feeling of DOMINENCE which makes them feel good.
I think they might not seek this feeling from animals because it’s just no challenge . . it is just to easy . . so they don’t get the same feeling or RUSH i.e., feeling CONTROL, POWER OR DOMINENCE.

Dominating another person, and seeing the effect, (and then reeling them back in with charm) is a real challenge . . so they get more of a RUSH. Anyway . . it’s just a thought!

sharing the journey

Sarah999 I’m not sure. I always felt that the exP had an affinity with animals. This really lulled me. It was uncanny the way animals responded to him. I love animals and they never responded the way they did with him.

With me it was scary. Charm abuse charm abuse etc so fast I felt I was in a wheel. I couldn’t respond appropriately. there was no time. I think I was an experiment. Multiple personalities. God–what did I witness. xxx

kim frederick

Littlewhitehorse, They take an otherwise strong individual and find one weak point, no matter what it is….a chimk in the armour, like a disfunctional childhood, and use it to their advantage….they DO drive us crazy!
It is a known fact that many have driven the one they loved to suicide…, please, give yourself a break, and learn all you can. Devour the literature here and elsewhere, continue to seek support and validation. This is a very strong resource for you, and if you reach out you will find freinds, and others who have been there. You won’t feel so alone or feel like you are the crazy one. Honest. Keep coming back.

kim frederick

Did I say, “the one’s they love?” Sorry. Meant the one’s who loved them.

Ox Drover

DEar Littlewhitehorse,

The term is dissociative, rather than dis-associative, and yes, it is something that some of us (me too) are more or less prone to be or do when we face a LIFE THREATENING event(s) I remember the first time I was aware of doing it was I was in a car, driving, and I saw that I was going to have an accident, there was NO way to SURVIVE and no way to avoid. and I was SO CALM, and I was preg and I thought to myself “I am so sorry the baby will die with me.” and wasn’t afraid at all, but just accepted that I wasx going to die in just a minute or so. Then, I just turned off, like reaching up and unplugging a television, the “screen went dark.” I woke up several minutes later, after the crash, after being thrown in to the back seat (no seat belts in those days) and the car being upside down after having turned over 3-4 times sideways. I of course did not know what had happened, but I always remembered those CALM seconds before the crash when I realized I was, not if, but WAS GOING TO DIE. It was odd though that it actually made me LESS afraid of death than I thought was normal, but from that time on I was not really “afraid” of seeing that I was going to die when I couldn’t prevent it.

Other times when I thought I was in danger, I would dissociate to a lesser extent than that day, but still I know now that is what I was doing. I am also a very easy hypnotic person, and can hypnotise myself or be hypnotised by others. Which is a form of dissociation as well.

I think dissociation is a stress response and I have seen animals do the same thing when they were attacked by a predator and were not yet dead, but they “freeze” and don’t seem to have any response to what is going on to them, or any distress from being eaten. (Years ago I did wild life photography and observed a great many prey animals as they were being killed). Dr. Temple Grandlin who designed animal control facilities for cattle (which are prey animals) to calm them by “squeezing” them where they are unable to move works on this principle as well.

Intense fear and stress can make us “psychotic” (out of touch with reality) or “crazy” to one extent or another, and the emotional abuse we suffer from these people is just as “bad” for us as the physical abuse and fear of our lives.

I have myself been as “crazy as an out-house rat” though not diagnosed as such by my psychiatrist, but totally not logical or more than minimally functional. So I understand to some extent what you may have been through. You are having a NORMAL RESPONSE to an ABNORMAL situation, which is “crazy” but YOU are not “crazy” you are INJURED.

I raise cattle and once I had a cow who had an injured eye, she actually had a piece of fox tail in it, we took her to the vet who put her in a squeeze chute and gave an injection into the area around the eye (VERY PAINFUL) and then sewed the lid shut with a big piece of string. The formerly gentle cow was from that time on RABID that she would no loner be herded into a confined space and she woujld try to KILL YOU if you tried to do so. Where she had gone willingly with the herd before into the chutes for vaccinations and worming, she would no longer allow this, she “went nuts” and became dangerous. She was REACTING normally to a PAINFUL THING DONE TO HER. So from then on I never again vaccinated her or wormed her or anything else and she did find for another 5-6 years. When she did become ill and weak, I was able to take her to the vet but she was not able to recover and died.

I think maybe our reactions are like that cow’s we were HURT SO BADLY that we can’t function if we even think that we might be hurt like that again. I probably could have worked it out with the cow with some gentle handling and so on, but I had 50 head at the time and it just wasn’t worth it to mess with on an economic basis so I just left her on her own and she did okay. With ourselves we owe more to ourselves than I did to that cow. We owe it to ourselves to figure out what hurt us, and how we can avoid that kind of hurt in the future.. The cow blamed the chute and being herded into it, though the chute was not actually what hurt her, but the medical treatment. We have to figure out what hurt us (a psychopath) and how to recognize and avoid being hurt by that same thing again.

We have to be kind and gentle to ourselves and stay out of situations that remind us of the pain until we have had time to recover. It takes a good deal of time too, as well as therapy and maybe medication, as the trauma and stress do have a physical as well as emotional effect on our brains and bodies.

I am so glad that you are here, this is a wonderful healing place. HAVE CONFIDENCE YOU WILL GET BETTER, because that becomes a self fullfilling prophechy. If we think we CAN then we CAN, if we think we can’t then we can’[email protected] ((((Hugs))) and God bless.

sharing the journey

Dear Kim. I have been reading for a while and I have no intentions of ever taking him back and I do realise that THIS is the on sane resourse I have found. But my mind is confused still. Trauma.

He bragged about hitting me with a car. So in the spirit–I was in a car smash with a sociopath. One minute happy driving along-next minute hell.

He filled my head full of crap–my own stuff was pushed aside. Mind rape.

Why go to the bother Kim. I can’t understand. For what purpose. He did want me to commit suicide. Why if they loved us. I just don’t see the point of that. What would they gain. They don’t really want the children. So why?xxx

sharing the journey

Oxdrover. Thanks for your understanding. It is the fear of someone I loved and lived with for 22 years. Felt comfortable with. If I didn’t know him–what and who do I know.

Ox Drover

Dear Littlewhitehorse,

Why? What did they GET out of what they did? POWER TO DO EVIL. I know that sounds maybe somewhat meladramatic but that is the bottom line on all of them. Even if they are after money it is still the ability to con the money or steal the money, or get the sex, or admiration, but the bottom basic line is POWER TO DO EVIL and no one can stop them.

Just like Satan went to the garden of Eden and conned Eve into eating the forbidden fruit so she would get tossed out, Satan did GET anything out of it, except to see HER SUFFER. But for evil people, and if you believe in God you must also believe in EVIL, they enjoy doing evil, they enjoy hurting others, controlling others.

It wasn’t “personal” it wasn’t about YOU as a person, it was about HIM being able to control whoever was there for him to victimize. It could have been anyone, you just happened to be the one he picked. Like eating an apple is not “personal” to THAT apple, it is just the most convenient one you lay your hand on, you don’t have anything against THAT apple, you just eat it for your own pleasure. It could have been ANY apple. The same with the psychopaths. They destroy what is near at hand.

YOU WILL SURVIVE THIS, you can “win” by living! By healing, and there is a purpose in this, and in the end, we start to be better and stronger than ever before! Because adversity strengthens us! You must now learn about yourself, about your strengths and your own ability to keep yourself safe. (((Hugs)))) and my prayers to God for your!

kim frederick

Because they can. That simple. It gives them a huge ego boost to think that they are that powerful. That IS what they live for…the mind [email protected]$k. Honest.

If you want revenge, the absolute best thing you can do, is get out from under that shit, and live well.

I’m with Oxy. Stay in therapy,(not because you’re crazy, but because you are injured, it will help you get back your bearings, your own sense of sanity) and don’t give him the time of day, even in your own thought proocesses. He’s the spath. not you.


Damn them!
I want you to know YOU ARE NOT ALONE….we, (all of us around the world) are here to lean on…..
You will find much validation and clarity here at LF…..
I am sending you some extra special EB MOJO, pull on it whenever you need!!!
It’s a long arduous journey we walk…..sometimes we need to rest and take a break…..but with each step we take, it brings us closer to our future…..
Please keep your strength and KNOW…..YOU ARE A VALUED HUMAN BEING darlen……
And we are here!!!

XXOO~ wrapped up with mojo…..

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