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By March 17, 2016 47 Comments Read More →

On The Sociopath’s Menu– Kernels Of Truth With A Side of Word Salad

SociopathMenu

A crazy-making, confidence-eroding weapon many sociopaths wield is their skill with words. Below is an edited excerpt from my book that highlights how my ex-husband (“Paul”) manipulated our marital therapist.

”¦The therapist looked at me and said, “Have you ever asked Paul if he’s having an affair?”

“No, I guess not,” I responded.

“Maybe you should.”

“Now?”

“Why not?” the therapist replied.

“Paul,” I said, “are you having an affair with Anne-Marie?”

 

Turning the Tables

“I am so hurt that you would even think that,” Paul replied, appearing genuinely concerned.

Notice, he did not answer the question. Instead, he used the diversion tactics of trying to elicit pity and putting me on the defensive and implicitly attacking my character for hurting him.

“Paul, I hope you understand why I need to know,” I said.

 

I’m Not THAT Kind of Person

“You know how honest I am and how much I value my integrity. I’m not that kind of person,” Paul said.

To add support for this, he told the therapist about his many accomplishments and past volunteer work. Once again, while Paul appeared to address my concern, he had actually released a smokescreen of evasion, misleading by providing evidence of his character, as if a person who “does good” in one setting cannot be a lying, scheming, cheater in another. Trust me, they can.

“Paul,” I said, “I need to know.”

 

I’m The Problem; Not Paul

“I can’t believe you think that I’m cheating on you,” Paul said, appearing convincingly hurt by the accusation. “Anne-Marie and I are working ”˜round the clock to make this company a success, to give our employees paychecks, to give the kids and us the life we want. It’s that simple. It’s your obsession with her and your jealousy of her that have me worried.”

Again, Paul had not addressed the question. Instead, he tried to elicit pity, to put me on the defensive by suggesting that my question demonstrated I did not appreciate him and that I am inappropriately paranoid about his behavior.  Yet, in truth, my question remained unanswered.

 

What Does “Sleeping With” Really Mean Anyway?

“Paul, are you sleeping with Anne-Marie or not?”

With the most humble, honest, “great guy,” hurt look in his arsenal, Paul turned to the therapist and then to me. “No, I’m not sleeping with Anne-Marie.”

By trying to ask a highly specific question to counteract all the times Paul responded to my questions without actually answering them, I fell into another of Paul’s traps. Clearly, I wanted to know whether Paul was currently or ever involved in a sexual relationship with Anne-Marie. By Paul not really answering my questions, I asked a more specific question, but I did not ask the “perfect” question. This enabled Paul to answer in a way that misled and misrepresented without actually lying, in his own mind, anyway—one of his favorite techniques and one at which he excelled. In retrospect, I know this was almost a game to him, to see if he could lie by telling selective truths and by the thinnest definitions of what words really meant.

His logic likely went something like this”¦Is he sleeping with Anne-Marie? Of course not, because that would imply it was happening right now, and right now, Paul was in a therapy session with me. Also, it was possible that they actually never fell asleep together but just had sex, so Paul could argue that his interpretation of the phrase “sleeping with” could “honestly” have been different than the intended meaning in my sentence (i.e., having sex). If he could argue, even in his own mind, that he understood my question to be asking if he and Anne-Marie were asleep somewhere together at that very moment, then his answer was not a lie. “Honest” Paul had prevailed again.

 

A Kernel Of Truth And A Side Of Word Salad—Our Therapist Buys What’s On The Menu

Words and language are not universal constants. They mean different things to different people, and meaning depends on context. As a result, sociopaths orchestrate words to obfuscate through selective “truth telling.” This also gives them “plausible deniability” so that, if caught in a lie, they can argue that they really misunderstood, that you misunderstood, the communication was unclear, etc. They have years of practice honing the skill of telling undetectable lies and diverting, deflating, and discrediting those who glimpse the truth.

By offering a totally different representation of our relationship, Paul twisted our therapist into viewing him as the doting, caring husband whose kindness and compassion were evident in the fact that he still loved and was concerned about helping his depressed, anxious wife. No matter what example I used to explain my sense of being minimized and dismissed, calm, collected, manipulative Paul always had a different twist.

Paul was able to tell his version with complete conviction, devoid of tension or agitation. Meanwhile, my version was laced with hurt and sadness and occasional tears I no longer had the strength to contain. This only made Paul look like a rock and made me seem like shifting sand. In addition, I appeared the shrew for battering poor, kind, sweet, caring, honest Paul. After all, didn’t it seem that he answered my question the first time?

 

Even If I Said That, How Could You Think I Really Meant  It?  Really”¦How?

When all else failed, I used the example of Paul insisting that we purchase a house I hated as indicative of how off kilter our relationship and ability to communicate had become. Paul twisted even that to his advantage.

“Yes, I’d wanted to buy that house,” Paul said, “and yes, I knew Onna had reservations, but I never knew her reservations were so serious. I just thought they were part of a healthy discussion, and we had to weigh the pros and cons.”

“But Paul,” I said, “I told you I hated the house, and I gave you all my reasons for feeling that way. You said you were going to get it without me, leaving me and the kids if necessary.”

With the most caring, compassionate look, Paul leaned forward and touched me gently. His eyes connected with our therapist’s and then switched soulfully back to me. “Onna, I was just joking if I ever said anything like that. How could you think I was serious? I’d never do that. I can’t believe we bought a house that you didn’t like. Don’t you remember I was worried so much about this and your happiness that I told you that we didn’t have to buy this house if you didn’t want to? You remember that, don’t you, honey?”

 

Paul Was Too Good

Like so many sociopaths, Paul’s misrepresentation was built on a kernel of truth. He had actually uttered the words “We don’t have to buy this house.” But, he’d likely done it only to create ”˜plausible deniability,’ and he’d done it when getting out of the contract with the builder would have been a legal and financial nightmare. His story was simple, my explanation complicated. He seemed steady and caring. I seemed unnerved and in denial. Paul’s version prevailed. Our therapist never questioned Paul’s steady, clear, confident version of events.

And so the charade continued”¦

 

Notes

My own cautionary tale of unwittingly investing almost twenty years of my life into a relationship with a sociopath and sometimes diverting from the best path, is chronicled in my book Husband, Liar, Sociopath: How He Lied, Why I Fell For It & The Painful Lessons Learned (available via Amazon.com, just click on title above). As I don’t get a “do over,” hopefully some of my painful lessons can help others impacted by these toxic people.

 Identifying names, places, events, characteristics, etc. that I discuss here and in my book have been altered to protect the identity of everyone involved.



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47 Comments on "On The Sociopath’s Menu– Kernels Of Truth With A Side of Word Salad"

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Mind f***ing is what I call it.

It is a game for my SP son, I swear.

He enjoys lying, lies constantly. He does not know what TRUTH even means.

Discrediting those who glimpse the truth…

WONDERFUL way to explain what they do!

Great post. Yes asking the ‘right’ question is the game they play. You know that even if you had asked the ‘right’ question you still would not have gotten the truth. He just would have pulled something else out of a hat, i.e.: blame shifting, flat lie, rage…. I’ve seen my spath on the stand with a lawyer asking the ‘right’ questions and what we see is nothing but chaos and rage and maybe two answers out of the 50 or so asked. Complete waste of time.

I remember my spath asking me when when he knew I was on my way out, “you think I had an affair don’t you, there was no affair.” I responded, “If cheating on me was your only transgression I probably could have forgiven it. I don’t really care if you had an ‘affair’ at this point or not. And by the way, I don’t think you had an ‘affair’. An affair takes a level of commitment, you have to wine and dine the woman. I think you are a broom closet kinda guy.”

Lolololol…

😀

What a great comeback, becomingstrong! LOL

This sounds like a perfect depiction of my ex. If there is a transcript of our court sessions during the divorce, it would read like a Who’s on First comedy.

No more wool,
I have requested the transcripts of some of the hearings. Putting on the stand serves only two purposes: 1. Showing the court his raging and 2. What a liar he is. But showing the court his antics takes abt 15 min. Anymore time allotted to the spath just takes away from valuable court time. What a three ring circus they turn everything into.
I think my spath is getting nervous that I’m abt to leave the house and town for good. He paid the property taxes after I sent an email telling him I would be vacating the house “soon”( word salad works both ways).

It was truly amusing when both of his attorneys dropped him and he represented himself. He would ask me all of these long, rambling, convoluted questions to which I would simply answer either “yes” or “no.” The answer was made simpler by the fact that he generally prefaced his word salad questions with “Is it true that….” or “Are you saying that…” The antics that followed my “yes” or “no” were bordering on unbelievable.

No more wool, you court hearings must have been nothing but chaos. How did you stand getting nothing accomplished? How many years did your divorce take?

And I love how they pull this s*** out of the hat when they have an audience. Appearing to be something they definitely are note.

Privately they can be quite direct, and not bother masking their game. Or at least very thinly veiled.

House of Cards is nailing it on this kind of communication. Both the main characters speak ‘lie’.

My ex psychopath used to shout at me, “I’m not doing it now!” when I tried to bring up an issue.

Yep, Annette, classic.

This was another great article, O.N.Ward. As a read it, I felt the frustration and turmoil you must have felt. They make you want to scream and pull your hair out. And then, yes, you’re the crazy one. I am so looking forward to the day this mind-craziness is all behind me.

Thank you Diane, it only took me 15 years to figure out that I needed to listen/read his communications very carefully. I only feel into his trap thousands of times hearing what I wanted to hear, what normal people think they are hearing.

Just for fun here is synopsis of my most recent email communications with my spath (this morning) on the heels of a huge hearing next week in which the court address his arrearages owed to me and contempt for night turning in discovery.

Email 1 from Spath: today I deposited money into the account. I paid you for January and February.

Me: For what purpose/month is the money you deposited today?

Email 2 from Spath: It is the monthly support.

Me : For which month does the money you deposited today apply? Is that money you deposited for the arrearages you owe me for December and January?

Email 3 from Spath: I don’t owe you any arrearages. I paid you for January and February.

Me: You owe me “‘xyz” in arrearages. You haven’t answered a very simple question which month is the money you deposited for? It has taken numerous emails to get you to answer a simple question.

Email 4 from Spath: The money is for January and February. (editor’s note: he supposedly paid January and February in January and February-shorted me for the month of January).
Me: The money you deposited is for arrearages then?

Email 5 from Spath: Like I said the deposit is for January and February.

You see this word salad game. He wants to go into court and tell the court he isn’t in arrearages and then take the money he paid today and apply it to April’s support or some future month. It’s just a game and nailing him down is a colossal waste of resources.

So familiar. You are right it’s a game to him, and there’s no way to ‘win’ except by not playing as much as possible. He wants to engage you in playing against your will. That’s a big win for him.

I eventually figured out it was pointless to reason with my ex Psychopath. (If he were rational, we’d be happily married) I eventually quit trying. You might consider just telling him how his payment is credited and ignore any further word salad he tosses at you. For example, You: “I received the money you deposited. It reduces what you owe on arrears to $xxx. Please deposit $xxx for January and February; and $xxx that you still owe in arrears for xxxx months. The total you still owe me is $xxx.”

The spath is likely to reply with some argument to hook you in; if you ignore it and don’t reply (per greyrock http://www.lovefraud.com/2012/02/10/the-gray-rock-method-of-dealing-with-psychopaths/) there’s a better chance he’ll give up arguing with you as much. Spaths will never take any responsibility for their share of reality.

When he says whatever BS you know he’s going to say in court, you repeat what you told him about what he owes to the court.

Annette,
You give really sound advice. Any future emails will require him/it to set ‘his’ record straight/lie not me. I’ll use your advice in the future. You are right he lives to engage me. Can’t wait to be done with him/it.

Yes, they live to engage us and keep us on the merry-go-round.

They live for it!!

Wow…

This boggles the mind. It is so true about SPs…they simply cannot answer a question squarely.

Always frustration!!

Yep…the guy I knew used to say, with a big comic grin on his face, “What, do you think this is some kinda game?”, and then he would laugh, like it was just the funniest joke. At the time I didn’t realize he was TELLING me it was a game.

sheesh

But also to give the false impression that it WASN’T a game, and that I should take him seriously.

Choosing words carefully was a lesson I learned the hard way. Once I began to direct my questions my X became cornered. Then more determined to win. The day I discovered his affair, I let him shoot his lying mouth off. For 1/2 hr. Interesting exercise in exposing the true nature of the beast. The best came through the divorce property settlement. When my solicitor was told to be persise with the documentation. The solicitor ignored me and my X made a complete fool out of my solicitor. My X was right as the wording had huge holes. So my snakey X just slithered through. Don’t under estimate these people. They pride themselves in their genius scheming.

What kind of therapist was this? Anyone? To me it is obvious said therapist was not trained or even knowledgeable about sociopathy…and I get angrier and angrier at therapists who do not have to ‘toe the line’ for their inadequacies.

I am still seething over bad counseling throughout my life…even abuse from them.

You can report a devious realtor to the Board of Realtors (or some such place as we did it in 1989). Where do you go to report these clueless counselors/therapists?

There are professional societies that therapists may be members of which would handle complaints. Most states require counselors have licenses and complaints can be made to the state board governing counselors.

However, as a practical matter, since counseling is so subjective, unless the counselor violates a specific rule or lacks required credentials, complaints for bad advice and lack of understanding sociopathy would likely be ineffective.

Sadly, sociopaths pretty much run the world. Good honest kind fair minded people are more and more in the minority, and more and more powerless. Government and business are examples.
My theological understanding is that this is Satan’s world, 1 Corinthians 4:4.

I totally agree. I once had a marriage counselor who made excuses for my ex husbands cheating. After a few sessions he had her manipulated and in the end I was blamed. Waste of time and money. I ended up divorcing this cheating,evil monster and never looked back. Never talked to him again and cut if all contact. Thinking back she was the worst therapist I ever encountered. She completely sided with him. I asked him the same question “why are you cheating on me with your coworker ?” I got the same answer “I am not cheating on you,you are just crazy,mentally ill a dbeed to be locked away “. And this was in front of the counselor. She said “don’t accuse him of cheating “. So wrong. Worthless counselor.
My life is peaceful and happy now. Instead of marriage counseling I should have served him divorce papers much sooner.

Another reason you need aggressive , powerful attorneys when it comes to divorce settlements . Going through divorce priceedings I let my attorney to the talking and negotiating. Being in 2 different rooms during mediation , away from my ex husbands ice cold eyes, gave me strength and power do have my victory.
Because everything that comes out their lying, cheating mouth is worthless garbage.

This article reminded me off our last session with the therapist. I just got so upset reading it because it reminded me so much of that situation. His lies and him crying in front of the therapist and me getting so frustrated because I knew he was lying and acting, so I said that to the therapist in his face and then his accusations started. Saying I was hormonal and he was such a good and happy person and he loved me so much. He portrayed himself as a saint.
I got out of that room so upset and I never went back. A few days after that he slapped me, I called the police, got a divorce, end of story. Well, end to that part of the story.

Yes they are masters of manipulation especially playing with words,,,,

I hear your difficulty and frustration with counseling and here is the dilemma… that it takes the victims a long time to figure out the socios after observation in many different situations, and it is much harder for the therapist to figure them out in such a short time and with limited situation and especially since they are such good liars….

People come in distraught often times and that is normal in couples therapy & it can be for many different reasons, and people can be very confused, upset, trauma etc.

So say your therapists is experienced in this & intuitive and “gets” that your spouse is a socio path …so now once they do what is the therapists supposed to do then?

This becomes a double edged sword, bc in marital therapy, do not forget you & the predator are BOTH the clients. You are not there asking to diagnose personality disorders that are nearly impossible to diagnose (since sociopath/psychopaths are not personality disorders)you are there to improve your relationship and get along better, or build trust or what ever your issues are…

And often times you, the one with the love in good faith blinders are not even ready to accept that they are predators and will destroy you…

you are still holding on to the idea that they just have problems that you are in counseling to fix, yet your therapist just called your spouse a sociopath!!! what?? if true your world is broken? if not true your world is broken?
and the consequences of that?

I hope the double edged sword is apparent here.

I agree that many therapists are clueless and unless they have ever had an experience with socios as well as read up on it how would they know?

And if they had had some experience most probably will not share bc that would be too revealing of their own personal issues & its about you not them ,,,,

My socio wanted to go to couples counseling every chance he got. He had gone with every “live in” he had & according to him, “it never helped”.

He stated, the counselors would send him home & the therapists would just want to work with the woman. He thougth that was a good sign..lol.
So again, the best the therapists could do is work with the woman and avoid him…..

We had many counselors & for the most part very clueless,,,,
except for the last one… who nailed his ass in session and you could see the terror the counselor had in their face…

so I knew that this counselor had had a personal expereice with a socio before & what did the counselor also say after the counselor called him out? and to me ?? and it sounded harsh but how else to end this?

They stated, that they never wanted to see either one of us back in their office that they could not see either of us & to go elsewhere for individual counseling. Harsh? or Safe?

By that time I already knew he was a socio, yet still good to hear it now rang clear as a bell & it was confirmed.

The Socio in session said nothing sat & stared how they do mulling over strategy ,,,paid for the session & made some helpful suggestions to the counselor while staring into their eyes & smiling in very “supportive” gentle manner…

Later socio went into a full blown rage & threatened to bring the counselor down bc the socio said they were “incompetent” since the counselor had called hi, a sociopath in session. He was raging ,,,

This is why for counselors its a very dangerous loosing situation when one person is a socio/psycho…(or even personality disorders like malignant narc, or borderline there is just no winning, with them).

Notice I was ready to hear it by that time, but imagine I had not been? Imagine I still believed the lies & loved him? And then the counselor would have said that? Then there would have been not one but two angry & irate clients, no?

With some of the past counselors I would often get frustrated with what counselor’s said which often was making small ridiculous changes…and not addressing the significant issues, of trust, lies, lack of boundaries, abandonment, betrayal etc.

So lets explore this further….

If you are with a real socio therapy will not benefit them, the best counseling can do is make them better liars, and manipulators as your case clearly illustrates

…if the counselor is astute & intuitive, they can make the victim see the light & the reality, if the victim is ready.

Sadly, many victims who do go to therapy are there bc they want to fix the relationship with their socio and they are coming with the hope of improving the relationship & still feel there is a chance. They are very loyal to their socio, bc as we all know they have been so brain washed and love bombed & spun, that we are still in the “just not tried hard enough” loop.

So when the astute therapists who sees the socio firmly tells them… look this is not going to change…this is not a couples problem….expect this or worse.

The couple often will get upset at the therapists for not wanting to “help” them or trying hard enough, or that the therapists does not “get it”.

The victim & the socio both leave upset for different reasons, so its a loosing situation for the therapist.

If the predator is high enough on the antisocial scale & high psychopath, this can be dangerous for the therapists as well as the victim. And there is no way of any one knowing the risks.

I can say that once I spoke to a therapists via tel who “got it” ,,,& he never used the word sociopath bc its loaded on so many fronts & so hard to prove. And he did tell me to leave the relationship bc it would not change & just cry it all out & if I had to cry for days to do so & for as long as I had to, & that the relationship was not going to work ,,,,

He was a kind and loving therapists who actually spoke with me for almost an hour & did not charge me any thing ,,,,I had never even met him!
(thanks you so much ,,,btw) I think he had had expereice bc of his deep desire to guide me in the right direction ,,,,

and I did cry but at the time, I was still not ready to hear it, I still was hoping that we could do things to improve it ,,,

I made some changes in my life and changed things up and I thougth that would help improve the situation ….(you can only change your self right? do something different right?)

So, I was not ready to hear it….
Its just a complicated situation, that is often dangerous for all involved except for the predator who will use and abuse every one they come in contact with, the victim as well as the therapists.

Bottom line there is no winning with these people …

Lets start by taking some empowerment OK
if you know your spouse is a predator, a socio, pr psyco then what are you doing in couples counseling?!!! JUST RUN!!!!!

If you are not sure but suspect, then let your counselor know !!!
If you are not sure & have no idea yet ,,,and if you go to a savvy intuitive therapists that “gets it” & they tell you….there is nothing you can do here, & that it will continue & nothing will change,,,,
then LISTEN to them & RUN!!!!

….do not expect for them to spell out the word sociopath in front of you or the sociopath!!!
,,,bc they can’t prove it…& there are legal ramifications to those terms by the way,,,,

not every one has an ex socio that has been convicted for a felony ,,,some are out there & have no convictions, so you better be careful the words you use as well bc they will come after you legally….

No win here….this is a VERY complicated issue on the victims side, as well as for the savvy therapists (The Clueless therapists actually do better by not getting it).

On the alternative side of the coin, you have the people that throw that term around loosely and in a non accurate way
or when angry & they do not get what they want in couple’s therapy …they will call & tell their therapists & say something like …”my spouse is a sociopath” ok so now what is the therapists supposed to say?? and what is that is not accurate from what the therapists sees? so who is now the socio?

And if they truly are socios
… why would any one want to stay with a socio?
So either they do not fully understand what that means or they are not telling the truth …
Its all rather complicated….
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

“If you drink much from a bottle marked ‘poison’ it is certain to disagree with you sooner or later.”

”• Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Thank you for sharing your interesting and complex experience with counseling.

There are as many outcomes from counseling as there are counselors and clients.

Sometimes counselors ‘side with’ the spath and the victim of lies and betrayal is revictimized in counseling.

Sometimes the counselor recognizes pathology and shares his/her observation which has been very helpful to the victim. It can clear up confusion due to gas lighting, identify the source of the victim’s distress, and help the victim decide what to do.

My ex psychopath happily blamed his first ex wife because she ‘refused to go to counseling.’ I encouraged counseling, and we went to a couple of sessions. He went through a couple more of counselors, successfully manipulating them so I didn’t go. Then he went to a 12 step sex addicts group when I found out about that activity. Then he went to an abusers group. Of course none worked because he lied to everyone about everything and in his mind he was going because ‘my wife thinks I’m an abuser.’

Spaths are almost always doing more bad things besides abusing and lying to their partners/victims. In retrospect, it was most helpful to me when I found out what he was doing that I hadn’t known about, and when I discovered some of his lies to me and to others. At the time he kept me in such confusion and emotional pain in order to control me that it was difficult to do anything rational.

This conversation explains why my SP son lied to his counselor.

Long story short, he first went with his ex, my DIL, for so called marriage counseling. He claims that it did not work because my DIL stopped going. According to him, she refused to go, therefor, the counseling did not work, and the marriage failed. Her fault, according to him.

Of course, that is not true. He had the counselor manipulated into what he wanted her to believe. That he was this very faithful and decent stand up family man who wanted nothing more than for everything to work out and be good.

My DIL could see that, I think. That he had the counselor sucked right in and that counseling with him was not conducive to anything good at all.

Then, of course, after they split, I informed her of his diagnosis when he was a child. She has learned a lot since then.

I wonder if this is one of the reasons why marriage counselling rarely seems to work. I’ll bet there are a lot of SPs out there and that is why couples end up trying counselling.

Sad for all of the spouses of SPs, especially if they are unaware of this disorder, like my DIL WAS. She is not unaware any more.

Oh…btw, I know that my SP son lied to his counselor at least one time, for sure.

I did not elaborate on how I know that in the above post.

My DIL sent me an email that my SP son sent to his counselor, and copied her on.

There was at least one undeniable lie in it, pertaining to us, his parents! I was incredulous once again.

There were other small lies as well and a lot of pity seeking from said counselor. It seemed that she had bought everything that he was selling…

He has since stopped seeing the counselor, he cites money issues for doing so, but I think it is just because he doesn’t need to try and save his farce of a marriage any more because it is most certainly OVER.

In my experience all the reasons why counseling doesn’t ‘work’ result from the basic motivation of whether the clients want it to work, and what ‘work’ means to them. The victim wants the counseling for the purpose of solving painful disruptive problems that result from the relationship. The spath doesn’t want the problems he is deliberately creating to be solved. The spath defines counseling working when he is successfully manipulating the counselor to work with him in manipulating the victim to do what he wants so he can get what he wants. What he wants does not include the victim’s happiness nor does it include an honest mutually beneficial relationship.

It was a painful eyeopener for me when I came to understand that my ex psychopath’s motivations were not what he said they were, did not include my well being, and did not include honesty.

Despite the pain and horror that your son’s choices and motivations cause, Your DIL is in a way blessed that you understand and support her. It must be beyond difficult to experience the situation unfolding, and decide what if anything to say and do.

What you are saying is exactly right!

The disordered person wants to go to counselling for, of course, all of the wrong reasons.Such as hopefully making the spouse appear mentally unstable.

SPs feel good living in dysfunction I guess. It is dysfunctional in their brains.

I forgot to say, that I have now had to completely remove myself from their situation. My DIL knows that I am in her corner and always will be.

I have had to step back for MYSELF.

The whole situation is beyond stressful and I cannot be involved for my own health.

I have already established no contact with my SP son, over six months ago now. I may never see him again.

I’m sure it’s got to be so painful and stressful. Your DIL knows she can contact you if she needs your help or support about anything. The whole situation is so counter to natural family relationships; really a nightmare.

Thank you Annette.

You have no idea what a nightmare this has all been…or maybe you do…lol.

Watching it all unravel and watching my son’s mask slip…

It’s been like a freaking movie. If it weren’t true, I don’t think that I would believe it all.

Since my son was born, life has been ‘interesting’. to say the least. And, not in a good way.

Pain and sorrow.

I, however, will not let that continue in MY life any more. This mother has had to make the most difficult decision to let her SP son go for the second time. This time, for permanent.

Bev,

I don’t know exactly; I can only extrapolate from how I feel when I’ve been betrayed by someone in a relationship that is supposed to be a love based bond. I think that a sociopath parent betrayal and a sociopath child betrayal must be the absolute worst, because those are the closest bonds and it’s a relationship bound by shared physical DNA, too, a child carried for 9 months in Mom’s body.

Yes, it is very hard. Giving up on my son.

I did carry him for 9 months and was so excited and happy to be having a baby.

He was a planned baby. I was over the moon to be becoming a mother. I had a marvelous uneventful pregnancy. No morning sickness. No drinking no smoking…not even tylenol.

From day one when he was born, things were not normal. Nothing went as it was supposed to go…

So true , my ex husband wanted to go to counseling in hopes of declaring me mentally ill. When I cried there at times , he said to the counsellor “look how crazy she is , she is mentally unstable , look how easy she cries “. Even though the counsellor did not agree with him, she still sided with him. Counseling with him was a complete waste of time and money. The minute he walked out the door he was already contacting his affair partner.
The only solution to recover from this is s divorce and no contact. I still attended some individual counseling after I was discarded but to be honest, talking to my attorney about the divorce was more beneficial than therapy for me. Of course it was way more expensive but succeeding in court tremendously helped my self esteem and self worth. For once I was able to beat him,to show and proof him he cannot get away with his crap.
Marriage counseling was a joke to him,another way to portray me as the “crazy wife ” who imagined his affair partners. Even though I had photos and proof,the counsellor still believed him. . If I had to go through this again,the minute I discovered his nasty photos with the young co worker , I would have filed for divorce. No 3 months of crying and begging and trying to “repair “my family. There was nothing to repair because this marriage and family life was a big lie, an illusion. I am grateful and blessed I have my wonderful, caring son out of this “marriage “and he will never be anything like his “father “.

How wonderful that you have a son that you cherish! Something good in an otherwise screwed up situation.

Thank you for posting 🙂

Thank you Bev
It was a complete nightmare because my ex husband was a cop and used all of his so called “cop powers ” to lie, manipulate and trying to destroy me. It was a complete shock to me to discover his secret life after 20 years of marriage. But even at times , when I thought I could not go on, my attorney called me and assured me he will get a good outcome. I put all my trust and a lot of money into this and he was right. We succeeded. Divorce is always awful, doctoring a sociopath cop took it to a next level. I did not need a marriage counsellor , I needed the best legal counsel I could find. You can never win in an emotional level with them , the only was was the legal level. To hurt him financially was my best option. And of course I had to look out for my welfare and future. My son is so much happier since the “father” is out of our life. He is at peace and can concentrate on his college education instead of seeing his mother a crying mess on a daily basis. Life with the ex exhausted me. Now I sleep better ,now my worries are gone. There is no way he can get to me anymore. And if he tries , my weapon is my attorney. Just so grateful my son was not a minor. I can only imagine what evil plans my ex would have in store. No contact is my shield for any further hurt or abuse and it will stay in place as long as I live .

Oh my…a cop…yes, what a nightmare!

I wish that my grandchildren were not so young…3 and 5 to be exact.

My SP son uses them like crazy to torture my DIL.

I can only hope that the legal system helps her as well. Because I have stepped back, or out, of all of it, I am not too sure what is happening on that front. I don’t think their first go round in court a few weeks ago solved anything. She has filed a protective order against him and also for child support (because the dead beat thinks it is immoral to have to pay, sine SHE was the one who kicked HIM out of his own house and now he has to pay rent somewhere else…sob sob).

It thrills me to know that you are where you are in your life…that it is possible!! I want my DIL to get there too…

Thank you thank you thank you!!

Your story is staggering as are many of those in comments. Thanks for sharing. It’s good for victims of paths to know they aren’t alone.

I think the “kernels of truth” are certainly one of, if not the most, heinous of their crimes. Their sense of timing is impeccable. Just when they feel you’re getting too close to uncovering their lying, unconscionable behavior, they throw you a scrap of truth. “Ah, there it is…he would never tell me *that* if he didn’t care about, trust, feel strongly about me.” I wish I could go back, knowing what I know now….that famous old nugget…but I do. I SO do.

Thank you for your kind words. I hope your daughter in law will successful in court. On other levels you can never win a war with a narcissist /sociopath. It’s just impossible because they will not lose. The only way for me was to let go of him, focus on myself , heal and rebuilt my self esteem and self confidence. The legal aspect I left to my attorney. There was no way to negotiate with my ex. Everything was his, the house , the cars , everything. Once that little minion entered his life I became the biggest obstacle for him. I once was the wife and the mother of his child,but now I had to be demonized so he could justify his cheating and lying. The 20 years of marriage , forget about it , he rewrote history. Looking back the smartest thing I did was divorcing him, getting the best attorney. And believe me financially I wAs in bad shape. But I sold things ,I borrowed money from family and it all went to lawyers fee. I don’t regret it , the outcome gave me my victory. One thing I learned is that my ex was not able to manipulate judges ,lawyers and the legal system. I think they really saw him for what he is truly is , a liar ,a cheater and an abuser. CPT America , his nickname given to him by his minions , lost all of his power. And I received the biggest blessing in my life, my freedom and my sanity, my happiness and my serenity. I have my son , I have my pets and he has nothing but freedom to have sex with the co workers and prostitutes. I win.

OMG, does this ever bring back memories. It’s been 5 years but just reading this brought back that pit in my stomach and the feeling like I was going to have an anxiety attack.
I remember once him coming home and me saying we needed propane so I could cook supper.
I said I had the money and he volunteered that he could go get the propane.
I gave him the $25 and thanked him profusely for doing it.
The gas station was no more than 15 minutes away and his sister was staying with us at the time. After about 30 minutes she asked me how far he had to go to get propane and shouldn’t he be back by now. I said he should be back any minute. After another couple of minutes she says, “Aren’t you going to text him and find out what is taking him so long?”
So I did. “Will you be much longer”
He texted back, “Not long.”
After an hour I text messaged, “Are you almost home?”
He sent back, “Home? I am in the barn”
I said, “Oh, did you hook up the propane? or should I?”
Him, “propane?”
Me, “yes, you went to get propane,”
Him, “I did?”
Me “Yes I gave you $25 and you said you would go buy the propane.”
Him, “I said I “could” go buy propane. I never said I “would” buy propane.
I can’t tell you what his sister’s response was, she spewed swear words for 5 minutes.
Now I laugh at how insane my life had become.

Hi Diane111, Im just checking in with you to see how you are doing this week.

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