Lovefraud received the following email from a man whom we’ll call “Brad.” He has two children with a woman who was diagnosed as a psychopath. Brad is concerned about the kids spending more time with their mother. After the email, I’ll make a few comments. But many of you have personal experience attempting to co-parent with personality disordered individuals, so if you have suggestions, please post them.
I have custody of my two children. My son is 12, and my daughter is 10. I’m remarried too. I have had custody since 12/2007. The kids are doing great. There grades are A’s and B’s. We have a happy home.
Ok, now the question. She was diagnosed as a psychopath, by a very professional psychologist. This is one of many reasons I got my children out of that poisoned atmosphere at her house. She also lost custody to another child.
I have been in court countless times, and have had the kids counsel with a very good lady that has helped them deal with her mind games. The other day the kids had to speak to the judge, and my daughter stated she wanted to live with her mother, and my son wants more time with her. She was on supervised visitation, but that only lasted about a year. It was found out that the mother has been pressuring the kids to “help mommy win this case.” How sad! As a dad that loves his kids more than anything, it is hard to have them say these things. I guess I understand to a point that a child wants to have two loving parents. With me, it is a game of survival to protect the kids. She is beyond good at mental manipulation of the kids’ minds.
I know the local judges just don’t understand how hard it is to live this kind of life. Always on guard, always cautious as to what to say in front of the kids, so they don’t slip, and say something that will in the end put them in more turmoil. The kids are now going through another evaluation with someone that concerns me. He has several ethical issues against him through the state licensing agency. He was granted to do this evaluation since she pushed the issue that I chose the last psychologist. I did recommend her, but only through references. The psychologist nailed her to the wall with who she is! Anyhow, how do you get the judges to see this? My attorney is very good, and I understand his tactics going in to this and showing how good the kids are doing, but he doesn’t want to get down in the “mud” much. My concern is how can a judge write a court order to deal with someone like this? It never ends—her violating the court order, but the court won’t put any teeth into keeping her in line, so the game continues!
I’m just nervous about custody and my children. They are my world! The advice I could use deals with the power she has on them to still be “loyal, defending her, and wanting more time.” The control she has on them is beyond my understanding. Even if we go shopping, they want things that are the “greatest” since the mother bought them. So, hard to get this ungodly loyalty.
By the way, we have a good home, and the kids are very happy, just so you don’t get the wrong impression.
I read some of the stories, and can within seconds relate to what this was like for me in the past. You heal, but boy does it make you see things in a much more guarded light!
A safe, loving home
First of all, Brad, I want to commend you for creating a home environment that enables your kids to thrive. This is really important. The best thing you can do is create a safe, loving and supportive home for them, where they feel welcome and cherished.
It is impossible for your ex to do this, because all psychopaths are only concerned about themselves and only want to win. Your ex wants the kids not because she loves them, but because she wants to win over you.
She can’t offer the kids real love, because she isn’t really concerned about their wellbeing. But right now, as you said, the game is on, so she probably engages in love bombing. This is showering them with attention and telling them how much she loves them, even though her words mean nothing. Many psychopathic parents also buy the kids’ affection by spending money on them and letting them do whatever they want— is she is doing this as well?
Then, of course, there’s the direct pressure: “Help mommy win this case.” This creates tremendous feelings of guilt in the children. They are made to feel responsible for her happiness.
Court tactics
You are right in that most judges don’t really understand what happens in these family situations. So what do you do?
First of all, document everything: Missed visitations. Lateness picking up or returning children. Failure to give medicine appropriately. Inappropriate child care. Subtle threats to you, the children, or others. Keep a good, organized journal of anything she does that is detrimental to the children’s growth and development. That way, when you need to explain what is really going on to a judge, you can do it with dates, times and references.
Secondly, you need to be careful not to openly denigrate her to the children. It sounds like you’re already doing this, but you don’t want to give her an excuse to claim “parental alienation.”
Finally, any communications with your ex should be “strictly business.” Just the bare exchange of relevant information regarding the children.
Here are some links that may help you:
10 tactics for child custody battles with sociopaths
Our Family Wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
Unfortunately, you may end up walking a real tightrope in court—especially if the new psychologist recommends that the children spend more time with the mother. Research shows that often, the person who is paying the psychologist gets the report that they want. If your wife is paying this person, then the psychologist may produce a report that is favorable to her.
More time with mom
It’s quite possible that between a clueless judge and an unethical psychologist, mom may win more time. Once that happens, she’ll probably stop the charade. She’ll start breaking promises, criticizing the kids and making them feel unwanted and insignificant. She may actually become abusive.
You, in the meantime, will continue to offer a rock steady, safe environment for them. Kids are smart. They’ll know the difference.
Eventually, they’ll get tired of their mother’s lies. If you’ve given them a solid foundation and are consistently loving, the time may come when they’d rather be with you than her.
So, readers, what do you think? Do you have more suggestions for Brad?
Dear Brad,
I am really sooooo sorry you are having to go through this with your kids, but like Donna, want to commend you for doing the best you can to provide a loving happy home for your kids.
I think Donna’s advice to you is very good, and hopefully after this battle, win or lose on her part, she will then stop the “love bombing” with the kids and revert to type and start devaluing them or not followiing up on the visits etc
I hope you realize that you are NOT ALONE in this, and I think from your comments that you do realize that. It is important to us that we realize we aren’t alone. Your kids will hopefully eventually start to SEE how she ACTS and won’t be able to be BOUGHT off with trinkets and junk! Hang in there! God bless.
Dear Brad ~
Unfortunately, I guess I am one of those who has had experience in child custody cases with a psychopath. In my situation, the psychopath is my daughter and the child is my grandson. He is 11 and we have had custody since 2005, but like yours, these custody cases never go away, any more than the psychopath. We have been in four different courts in two different counties spanning a time period of 10 years.
In my experience, I see several very positive things in your favor. 1. You have had custody for the past 4 years and have provided a CONSISTENT & STRUCTURED (remember those words and use them over and over – they are key words a judge likes to hear) loving home life. 2. She has been diagnosed. 3. She had another child removed from her custody. 4. You do not “bad mouth her” to the children, so like Donna mentioned they can not claim parental alienation.
If I undestood you correctly, they are currently being evaluated by a psychologist that you do not have faith in. If it is not too late, could you request a forensic psychiatrist to do a 360 evaluation on EVERYONE involved, x-wife, you and your present wife, the kids. They will review all the old records, school records, EVERYTHING involved in the case. The warning here, this is very expensive, usually between $3,000 to $6,000 and if you request it, you may have to pay the entire amount.
Has a GAL been assigned to your case? They are neutral and are SUPPOSE to represent the best interest of the children (not the children’s wishes). The court usually takes their recommendations very seriously. Although we had a very bad experience with one GAL, I would still recommend them, most are very competent. This fee is USUALLY split between the parties.
Donna has given most of the important advice about documenting everything, the good, bad and ugly.
Oxy is right, sooner or later her mask will fall with your children and they will see her for what she is. The more time they spend with her, the more apt this is to happen. It won’t take them long to come to an understanding of why they are with you.
I am sure that she is playing the “poor mommie” pity ploy with them and they probably feel sorry for her. I know it is hard, but don’t take their feelings personally. You are doing a great job giving them a stable, happy, loving home life. I also know how hard it is to keep from expressing your negative feelings in front of the children, I have to bite my lip sometimes to keep from blurting it all out. But as you mentioned, it is not something that would benefit their emotional well being at this point.
My best wishes to you in this ordeal. I understand your nerves, there is just SO MUCH at stake and when you have to leave it in a stranger’s (the court) hands, oh my.
Please keep us posted on how you are doing. Bless you Brad, your children are blessed with a caring Dad.
Brad –
One other thing, Donna is right again, if she does win extra visitation time and she feels she has “won”, she probably won’t take advantage of it.
Almost immediately after being awarded extra visitation, my daughter lost interest (AGAIN) and her weekly visits are now 1 every 6 to 8 weeks and her nightly phone calls are about 1 every other week. Then you are left trying to make the kids understand why “mommie dearest” rejects them yet again.
Unfortunately, the courts don’t see that part.
Brad,
I’m sorry you have experienced a spath. welcome to the club.
While it’s possible that she will be temporarily sated if she gets more time with the kids, there is a good chance that she will continue to need more drama.
My advice is reverse psychology. Spaths want your emotions. They get these by taking what you value most. In your case, it’s your kids. IMO, you need to grit your teeth temporarily and make everyone think that you are grateful that your ex is taking an interest in the kids. Tell the kids that the ex has really grown and that she is NO LONGER doing X but instead is doing Y. (make X one of the horrible things that you know she’ll do again) Tell the exspath that you hope she is turning over a new leaf, because the kids “love their mother and shouldn’t feel abandoned”. Be such a pollyanna that the spath believes you.
Then make her think that you and your wife are looking forward to time alone.
In other words, never let the spath see what you really care about, use misdirection.
If the spath ends up getting more time with the kids, I do agree that they will eventually feel her sting. The only real danger I see is that spaths will often ensnare their victims in guilt and shame. They will entice the victim to do something that will be hard to live down. Your mission is to keep an open line of communication with your kids so that they never feel the need to hide anything from you. Instill boundaries and moral conviction in them. I don’t think it’s ever to early to teach kids about spaths. You don’t have to say that their mommy is a spath. You simply need to point out the evil machinations in characters from movies, books and real life.
Examples are everywhere. I spoke with a 15 year old girl about my spath experience and she immediately understood. She explained to me that her best friend in 8th grade had been that way. And she also recalled a boy she dated who tried to manipulate her and call her a whore, even though she was a virgin. Kids, I think, are actually more alert for emotional manipulations. They only need to be validated so that they understand what they are witnessing and feeling.
Good luck to you.
Sky ~ I think your reverse psychology advice is very valid, at least it is what I have noticed with my daughter. The more I make her think her visits are welcomed or that she is helping me by taking Grand for awhile, the less we hear from her. The only problem is Sky, it is very hard to offer your kids up to this kind of monster. If Brad’s x has previously neglected, abused or even been drunk or high when she is responsible for them, it is almost impossible to just give in and let her spend time with them. It is something that you just have to fight for. I do think it would work, but it comes down to – are you willing to take the chance? It is very hard.
I also think there are ways to teach kids about their spath parent, without “bad mouthing” them. Like you say, movies, books, stories or pointing out things about other people. EB mentioned a movie, not too long ago, that her kids made the connection with. I don’t remember the name of it right now. I like to watch movies with Grand that are filled with life lessons and see what he picks out of the movie. We just watched Blindside, that is good for why some kids can’t live with their moms.
Milo,
I know it’s hard. I can’t imagine anything harder.
The spath already gets time with Bob’s kids, and there is nothing he can really do about it. So he might as well use those times to make the spath think he has other plans. Maybe short vacations or movie night out with the wife. The more that the spath sees him ENJOYING the time away from his kids, the less she will want them. He doesn’t actually have to go anywhere, she just has to think he did.
Spaths are naturally envious. They ALL have that at the root of their PD, so we might as well take advantage of it.
I agree with the make her think she is giving him time away from the kids to do HAPPY THINGS he couldn’t do with the kids….that she is actually doing him a SERVICE by taking the kids….not give her any extra time, but just make sure that the time she DOES GET is seen by her as a way for him to get ALONE TIME WHICH HE WANTS or time with his wife he couldn’t have with the kids. In other words, she is his UNPAID BABY SITTER for him to use to have FUN.
Of course don’t let the kids hear that, but just her in CASUAL conversation…or maybe let the kids hear how much FUN he is going to have while they are gone….she sure won’t appreciate being an UNPAID BABY SITTER.
Maybe just a comment about how hard it is to find good sitters so he and the wifie can have some time. LOL
Proof that it works – if you remember, I gave her a hard time about the Thanksgiving visit and she made my life miserable until I broke gray rock and screamed my head off.
Well, Christmas, I gave her a choice of everything – day, time, place and I acted excited to do it. Her response – she could not do Christmas Day, busy – she could not do day after Christmas, busy – she could give Grand 2 hours on Christmas Eve, then she was busy. Christmas Visit – 2 whole hours, I could do that. Grand did it then said, let’s go home and have a real Christmas.
Moral of the story – Brad – it does work.
MiLo, GREAT!!!!! Yeppers, it does work!
bwahahahaha!
They are just soo determined to make us miserable. That is their goal. So make them think something will make us miserable and you can BE ABSOLUTELY SURE they will do it.
My spath did it to me for 25 years. I never imagined why EVERYTHING in my life went wrong. Nothing ever worked out, I was always disappointed. The last few years I wished I was dead and yet I never figured out that it was HIM sabotaging, my health, my home, my car, my heart. It was non-stop 24/7.
He must SURELY miss me.