Lovefraud received the following email from a man whom we’ll call “Brad.” He has two children with a woman who was diagnosed as a psychopath. Brad is concerned about the kids spending more time with their mother. After the email, I’ll make a few comments. But many of you have personal experience attempting to co-parent with personality disordered individuals, so if you have suggestions, please post them.
I have custody of my two children. My son is 12, and my daughter is 10. I’m remarried too. I have had custody since 12/2007. The kids are doing great. There grades are A’s and B’s. We have a happy home.
Ok, now the question. She was diagnosed as a psychopath, by a very professional psychologist. This is one of many reasons I got my children out of that poisoned atmosphere at her house. She also lost custody to another child.
I have been in court countless times, and have had the kids counsel with a very good lady that has helped them deal with her mind games. The other day the kids had to speak to the judge, and my daughter stated she wanted to live with her mother, and my son wants more time with her. She was on supervised visitation, but that only lasted about a year. It was found out that the mother has been pressuring the kids to “help mommy win this case.” How sad! As a dad that loves his kids more than anything, it is hard to have them say these things. I guess I understand to a point that a child wants to have two loving parents. With me, it is a game of survival to protect the kids. She is beyond good at mental manipulation of the kids’ minds.
I know the local judges just don’t understand how hard it is to live this kind of life. Always on guard, always cautious as to what to say in front of the kids, so they don’t slip, and say something that will in the end put them in more turmoil. The kids are now going through another evaluation with someone that concerns me. He has several ethical issues against him through the state licensing agency. He was granted to do this evaluation since she pushed the issue that I chose the last psychologist. I did recommend her, but only through references. The psychologist nailed her to the wall with who she is! Anyhow, how do you get the judges to see this? My attorney is very good, and I understand his tactics going in to this and showing how good the kids are doing, but he doesn’t want to get down in the “mud” much. My concern is how can a judge write a court order to deal with someone like this? It never ends—her violating the court order, but the court won’t put any teeth into keeping her in line, so the game continues!
I’m just nervous about custody and my children. They are my world! The advice I could use deals with the power she has on them to still be “loyal, defending her, and wanting more time.” The control she has on them is beyond my understanding. Even if we go shopping, they want things that are the “greatest” since the mother bought them. So, hard to get this ungodly loyalty.
By the way, we have a good home, and the kids are very happy, just so you don’t get the wrong impression.
I read some of the stories, and can within seconds relate to what this was like for me in the past. You heal, but boy does it make you see things in a much more guarded light!
A safe, loving home
First of all, Brad, I want to commend you for creating a home environment that enables your kids to thrive. This is really important. The best thing you can do is create a safe, loving and supportive home for them, where they feel welcome and cherished.
It is impossible for your ex to do this, because all psychopaths are only concerned about themselves and only want to win. Your ex wants the kids not because she loves them, but because she wants to win over you.
She can’t offer the kids real love, because she isn’t really concerned about their wellbeing. But right now, as you said, the game is on, so she probably engages in love bombing. This is showering them with attention and telling them how much she loves them, even though her words mean nothing. Many psychopathic parents also buy the kids’ affection by spending money on them and letting them do whatever they want— is she is doing this as well?
Then, of course, there’s the direct pressure: “Help mommy win this case.” This creates tremendous feelings of guilt in the children. They are made to feel responsible for her happiness.
Court tactics
You are right in that most judges don’t really understand what happens in these family situations. So what do you do?
First of all, document everything: Missed visitations. Lateness picking up or returning children. Failure to give medicine appropriately. Inappropriate child care. Subtle threats to you, the children, or others. Keep a good, organized journal of anything she does that is detrimental to the children’s growth and development. That way, when you need to explain what is really going on to a judge, you can do it with dates, times and references.
Secondly, you need to be careful not to openly denigrate her to the children. It sounds like you’re already doing this, but you don’t want to give her an excuse to claim “parental alienation.”
Finally, any communications with your ex should be “strictly business.” Just the bare exchange of relevant information regarding the children.
Here are some links that may help you:
10 tactics for child custody battles with sociopaths
Our Family Wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
Unfortunately, you may end up walking a real tightrope in court—especially if the new psychologist recommends that the children spend more time with the mother. Research shows that often, the person who is paying the psychologist gets the report that they want. If your wife is paying this person, then the psychologist may produce a report that is favorable to her.
More time with mom
It’s quite possible that between a clueless judge and an unethical psychologist, mom may win more time. Once that happens, she’ll probably stop the charade. She’ll start breaking promises, criticizing the kids and making them feel unwanted and insignificant. She may actually become abusive.
You, in the meantime, will continue to offer a rock steady, safe environment for them. Kids are smart. They’ll know the difference.
Eventually, they’ll get tired of their mother’s lies. If you’ve given them a solid foundation and are consistently loving, the time may come when they’d rather be with you than her.
So, readers, what do you think? Do you have more suggestions for Brad?
Yea, just like a little kid, if you want them to eat their dinner just say don’t you dare eat that dinner !!!!!!!
Yes, Sky, no wonder he is trying so hard to get you to answer him, he NEEEEEEEDS YOU.
Hi all Brad here,
The story you just responded to is mine! I really appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input! So much happens when you are constantly dealing with a person like this.
The funny thing now is that the psychologist doing this “new” evaluation which was court ordered, and she chose him, has now backed out! I’m not sure how he could do that? I will be meeting with my attorney and reviewing this this week. Wow, this guy is “something”! He called my ex’s attorney, and told him that he could not recommend switching custody, and when my attorney called him after getting a letter with all this called him. He told my attorney that he might recommend an over night during the week if he was to go to court!!! Well, so here we are. First, why would this guy call just one attorney, and not have contacted both? Why would he tell me that the women is “nuts” to my face, and tell me how good of a dad I am, but not want to back it in court? He has had ethical issues against him. I want to say more, and there is lots more I could say, but with my case pending, I better not say to much for fear of retaliation. I will say it would be very hard for him to come up with to much good about her when there are other professionals going to be in court, and he would be on his “own” little island if he backed her!
I better add this that I have had my children seeing a local counselor for over three years, and she will be testifying as to how bad the this is affecting the children with all the games, and guilt being put on them, and also that is the three years seeing her at no time did they ask, or want more time with her. She has witnessed first hand the mother trying to make her look bad to the point as having her best “friend” set up an appointment, and try to trap her with phony ethic charges! I’m sure some of you are smiling now with your own stories, and I would love to hear them.
The part that makes this somewhat humorous is no matter how much you say you aren’t going to waste your time trying to figure her next move, you still catch yourself doing that, AND it never ever fails they still can blind side you with an out of this world psycho… tactic.
There’s never a night that I don’t lay down and snuggle with my kids though…., so it is all worth the crap you have to go through to love and protect your children.
Thanks Brad
One more thing…Brad here,
I want to thank Donna for all the hard work she had done to make this site available for us to “vent” some! It does help knowing you aren’t alone dealing with this.
Brad
Brad: My best thoughts and wishes are with you at this time.
I am sorry for the turmoil your life is currently going through.
Donna is right: kids are smart. THEY are wanting that more time with her, let them have it. I agree with Donna, completely…they will eventually come back to the nest that offers them the most comfort and less dysfunction.
You sound like a GREAT FATHER and I would tell you to keep being that GREAT FATHER with grace and understanding. They are trying to fill a void by wanting more time with their mother. Perhaps they need a ‘trial run’ to see what it is truly like…to find answers to questions that are so important to them.
I am sure they must KNOW you love them.
Let them go and find out for themselves and they will be back posthaste…they have choices too, even if they are kids.
Thoughts and prayers to you…we are here for you if you need us. Remember that kids have to find answers too, sometime.
I used to be one of those kids….
*BLESSINGS TO YOU AND YOURS*
Dupey
Brad ~ Our grandson had also been seeing the same counselor/psychologist for five years. In our state, the only thing this counselor was allowed to testify to was how the visits affected the child. She was not allowed to give her opinion about increasing visitation or if the visitations were in the child’s best interest. Why – because we were the ones paying her and she was considered predjudiced. You may want to ask your attorney if such a law exists in your state.
Good luck
Sky and MiLo talking about how you use “reverse psychology” on kids and psychopaths….made me think about how I used to get my kids to wash dishes…from the time they were VERY young when they really weren’t a help but they wanted to stand in a chair and play in the dish water (didn’t have an automatic dish washer then) I would say “If you’re not good, you can’t wash dishes tonight!” and they were like 11 and 12 when they figured out that WASHING DISHES WAS NOT A PRIVILEGE! They’d been actually washing the dishes for YEARS by the time they figured it out. LOL Did a lot of that with them….by the time they were in high school they figured the only reason I had kids was because I didn’t like to mow grass or wash dishes! LOL LOL ROTFLMAO but it worked!
Oxy ~ One of my favorites has been – you are really not “strong” enough yet to clean stalls. They were all more than happy to prove me wrong. Grand is still falling for that one. LOL I know, I have always made it a priviledge to ride on the hay wagon. I still have grown kids that love to make hay…..
Seriously though, with the spath daughter, I think back to that first year we had full custody of Grand. I did everything I could to try to make her visit, I begged, pleaded, shamed, demanded, screamed. Nothing worked, she would not call or visit. Then I said enough is enough, I’m not letting you disappoint this child any more, no more visits until you seek help and get your act together. That is when the trouble started – her #1 goal was to make us let her visit.
There really is a lesson to be learned here. It is just in the moment, at the time, you are so preoccupied with protecting the child, you can not see it.
I sure would have saved a bundle of money.
Yea, I used the “you are not big enough” to do things…like mow the lawn, run the tiller in the garden…LOL With the kids it worked. With your daughter I think it would work wonders. Some ex husbands as well.
Haven’t had much success with it with my P son or my egg donor, and not with my ex boy friend, or my ex DIL but I t hink I have driven her away from the one place that we both went (an auction) by using the Laugh at her technique…loud enough she could over hear me laughing at her and telling my friend about her arrest!
I think you sort of have to use different methods on different Ps, but of course NEVER let them know what you REALLY want or care about….that is a GIVEN. With co-parenting you have to play it by ear sometimes and making them think that you enjoy the time away from the kids and they are an unpaid sitter will sometimes make them NOT want to take the kids which is your goal.
Oxy ~ something is going on with her right now and I have no clue what it is. I THINK she has run out of doctors and hospitals that are willing to give her pain medications. Now she is making the rounds for anti depressants.
We haven’t heard one word from her for almost two weeks. The last I heard was when redial was hit on her phone and I got that empty call with background sounds only. The sounds were her and boyfriend screaming at each other. In the past, I would have listened to see what information I could hear. This time I hung up and just didn’t care. I think that I have realized she just can’t hurt me anymore. I have the power to block her attacks. Hope I am right.
MiLo,
Interesting about the butt-call on her phone.
US Realizing that they can’t hurt us by denying us love unless we allow it is a good thing. I think it is coming close to the NIRVANA OF INDIFFERENCE on our part.
“The opposite of love is not hate, it is INDIFFERENCE” When we can become INDIFFERENT to them then we are truly and fully out of their grasp of hurting us. Now that doesn’t mean they
can’t kill us or hurt someone we love, it simply means that we no longer desire their love or care or think they are going to reform or love us the way we loved them.
My “little boy” that I loved, my son, is GONE just like your daughter is GONE never to return….the adults we are dealing with (you as a co-parent) and me as a stalker are STRANGERS to us, not someone we love any more. It is a “Shame” but that’s the way the cookie crumbles and the way we have to deal with things. So, that being the case, we do what we have to do to keep them at arm’s length where they can’t in your case, hurt your Grand, and in my case, can’t kill me.
I don’t wish my son would die, but at the same time, if I heard he was dead, it would be a RELIEF to me, not a grief. I’ve DONE with the grief, I’ve cried all the tears for the boy I loved, and he is gone, dead and buried. The stranger, the man, is not someone I love.