By | July 22, 2011 335 Comments

Psychopaths and outrageous lies

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (Retired)

Psychopaths sometimes don’t  know enough about how the rest of the world thinks to tell a “good” lie. I saw the following article about North Korea’s soccer team and how they had been apparently caught in a doping scandal, but were claiming that it was really an herbal medication that made them test positive for steroids.

Just what will Kim Jong-Il make of all this? North Korea say medicine using musk deer glands caused five players to fail drug tests

The excuse given was that the team members had been struck by lightening and they had decided, heroically, to compete anyway. The steroids were accidentally taken with traditional Chinese medicines.

I have recently found other articles about the “stories” of the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-II, that made me laugh out loud. In one article, he supposedly played his first round of golf and scored a 38, including five holes-in-one.

One of the things I have noticed about many psychopaths, and others who frequently lie, is that their lies are so “off the wall” that no one over three years old would believe a word of them. They will “lie when the truth will fit better” is a saying I’ve heard all my life. This seems to be especially true with pathological liars and psychopaths.

Dr. Robert Hare, well-known psychopathy researcher, says that psychopaths have difficulty realizing that their lies are unbelievable, even when the evidence that they are untrue is literally in front of them. In some way, the two sides of their brains can’t connect the evidence in front of their eyes.

An example of this are the lies told by Casey Anthony when she led the police to the place she supposedly worked, even going to a cubical, when she knew that she didn’t work for that company. She also lied about  leaving her daughter with “Zanny the Nanny,” when such a person didn’t exist. Anthony even led the police to the door of the empty apartment with the police in tow.

Not all liars are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are liars. Liars signal that they are not to be trusted. But if you hear a lie that is so outrageous that it makes you laugh out loud, or have the feeling that the person telling it must be “crazy—”look out! You very well may be dealing with a psychopath.

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A lie that may finally have done in my sister in the 90s when she was escalating absurdity in her stories to elicit ever greater sympathy was the one about having found a dead boy hanging from a tree in the woods behind her property with a pentagram carved on his chest a couple of years before all the fires, one of which was to burn down the house her husband had built on that property ”“ just after he’d retrieved all their possessions from storage to furnish it.

A Texas Ranger came to the scene to investigate the incident. He found zero evidence, and determined that the tree she said the child hung from could not have supported the body, even such a small one. Her explanation for not having reported it sooner was that she feared for her and her daughter’s lives (the daughter whom she was persistently causing injury & illness). She declined a lie-detector test, although, as a psychopath, she might well have passed it.

Ultimately she was arrested and pleaded guilty to the 7 counts of arson that she’d been accusing everyone but herself of committing (a neighbor, satanic cult, murderer in a separate high-profile case, you name it, her theories had no bounds, but were in line with her lifetime pattern).

Unfortunately, she so snowed the arresting officers that they let her go home with her young daughter on her own recognizance, and recommended merely probation & conditional release instead of the 10-year prison term. Now she uses the entire era to elicit further sympathy (desperate cry for help) and praise for how far she’s come since then (considering almost nobody knows of her subsequent dastardly deeds).


lies – well let’s see….hahaha i don’t have the time to write down all the lies the spath told me.

I might be better to write a few things that I suspect to be truth.
– she has traveled to x place and possibly to my country (where she supposedly was living)
– she does appear to like crows
– she does have dogs
– she is short
– she does know an ‘old couple’ who live in Illinois (but they are her and her husband!)

guess that’s it.

liar liar liar liar – it’s a wonder she hasn’t combusted from the flame of deceit.


You don’t know! You weren’t there! While not LIKELY to have happened as they describe, IT MIGHT have happened! Poor FIVE in one Kim Jong-il and poor innocent Casey Xanax (don’t know why they keep spelling it Zanny the nanny when it’s Xanie the nanny).

That it “COULD be true” is NOT just the logic of spaths, but also of juries in murder trials and apparently, also the logic of current US legislature…


Not all liars are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are liars. Liars signal that they are not to be trusted. But if you hear a lie that is so outrageous that it makes you laugh out loud, or have the feeling that the person telling it must be “crazy—”look out! You very well may be dealing with a psychopath. ~ AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I am on my way to an EMDR therapy session.

Have a great day and I will read you all later on sometime.





Sometimes we do not know the person is lying at the time. I would say that any action that causes you to think WTF?? is reason to suspect you are dealing with a sociopath.

Again my best example: Two gay men, one 38 the other 35 on their third or forth date in a very fine restaurant. After a very pleasant evening, me, the 38 year-old says something complementary to my date, then I say “I have a very nice apartment, would you like to grab some beers and go back there after dinner?’

My date storms out of the restaurant. Outside, I see him nervously smoking a cigarette and make an attempt at damage repair.

“You offended my British reservedness.” I apologized and told him that it was not meant to be an advance, and that I do actually have a nice place with a very quite dining room and that we could go there instead of a bar. He said “lets just go to a bar.”

Now keep in mind that while he is creating all this drama, unknown to me at this time, he has a profile on a gay dating site with the following words:

“Hobbies include boys, beer, conversation, then a little fooling around.”

Ox Drover


I have set new standards for HONESTY, and the standard for TOLERATION OF LIES=ZERO…..because even if the lie you catch them in today is “a small white lie” it is only because they didn’t feel the need at that time to TELL THE BIG ONE!

I also realized that in many ways, I HAVE BEEN DISHONEST in my own relationships with egg donor and told lies myself because I didn’t want to “upset” her with the truth. I didn’t want to face the CHAOS that would have ensued if I had been totally honest with her myself. So I am CORRECTING my own dishonesty in my relationships with others. I am being HONEST about what I expect in a relationship with others that are important to me.

If a clerk in a store is rude I don’t have to be “honest” with her and tell her all about her rudeness, I just walk away, or if it is bad enough I go see the store manager and complain honestly and calmly. That clerk is not PERSONALLY important to me.

People who are PERSONALLY IMPORTANT TO ME, I will be honest with them, and set HONEST BOUNDARIES….and if the relationship doesn’t survive them being told HONESTLY that they have violated my boundaries, then I know I have truly done the best I could in the situation. I’ve been honest, up front and kind, but I didn’t lay down and play door mat, because that would be being DIS-honest with MYSELF.


So spath has been contacting me for a week now after no response he decides to ask who i am like he doesnt know my number. Wth! Weird! Crazy!


Interesting. Are you saying that he said, “who are you?”
That’s what my spath said to me right before I left him. He was angry because I hadn’t answered the phone all day. Then he says, “who ARE you? I don’t even KNOW YOU.”

I know now that it was projection and a tell. He was speaking exactly 180 degrees of the truth. The truth being that I didn’t know HIM or what he was.

Farwronged, I would guess that your spath is going through some very stressful time in his life right now and he’s going to try very hard to reach you for emotional supply. I’m guessing this from my own experience. Make a plan, stay safe, be boring, maintain NC.


Far – he asks who you are because he THINKS this will get him a response. Any response, to spath, is better than no response because it keeps his communication channel open with you. It’s his way of keeping you hooked.

Hope to heal

Far ~ keep up the no response. Gray Rock him away!!!

Ox Drover

Far, I think indeed he does NOT KNOW WHO YOU ARE….not the NEW YOU, the stronger, wiser survivor who is not a door mat, who will not believe his lies. No, he does NOT know this NEW YOU! I have a feeling he will NOT LIKE this NEW YOU either! Ohhhhh, toooo bad! hee hee


hey farworonged – he is contacting YOU and asking WHO ARE YOU like you were contacting him – typical!

if it makes you ask WTH? or WTF?, the answer is ‘DYSFUNCTIONAL’. and that leads to, ‘don’t try to figure it out – put it in that box of, if it makes you crazy IT IS crazy. Keep up the grey rock – and a ? for you, how is he contacting you? Can you block this contact from happening at all?


One of my mantras has been “to Thine Own Self Be True”. In other words, don’t lie to myself AND BE LOYAL to my OWN self.

About honesty? It NEVER occurred to me that I was inconsistent with my mantra when I let people lie to me and still associated with them (although I did not TRUST them.). Thanks for being the example. I am setting my standard a little higher by adding an honesty boundry in my mantra.

Ox Drover

Dear KatyDid, (have to put the Did in now since we have Katy_Rock on here now too!)

I never realized really that I was being dishonest as well. I DID lie to egg donor…by omission mostly….just KEEP THE PEACE….and by doing that I was ENABLING her bad behavior, her controlling behavior…I was allowing myself to be dis-honest to keep peace with her. I realize also that son C is doing the same thing I did, he is lying to me when he knows he has broken a boundary that would cause me to become “upset” with him. He would rather be DIS-honest than to be honest and man-up about his behavior, his breaking his agreement.

Funny thing is, he goes NC with egg donor because she lied to him about the agreement she had with him and me not to communicate with P-son or give P-son money. So SHE lied to him and me to KEEP THE PEACE about breaking the agreement she made, yet he does the SAME THING (lies) to me, and he doesn’t GET IT that I won’t tolerate the agreement breaking. LOL

Then, he thinks we will just “pretend none of this happened.” LOL

Nah, it happened, and the results are the boundary—I cannot trust him, and it is not that he is a psychopath, it is just that he is still playing the family game that he learned at MY KNEE, and I learned it at the egg donor’s knee, of playing “let’s pretend we are a nice normal family and pretend none of this happened.”

In order for me to ENFORCE the rules about HONESTY with others, I must QUIT BEING DISHONEST MYSELF. I must be open and honest with those I love above all else.

After the visit by son C the other day when my husband’s grandkids were here, when I invited him to dinner rather than tell them I was NC with him and why (I was being deceptive with them actually) he seemed to think that we were now “back to normal” and that we would “pretend none of that happened” but I sat him down and told him, “Look, I want you to understand WHY I invited you over for dinner, ” and I told him why, and that “it didnt’ change anything between you and me because I CAN NOT EVER TRUST YOU AGAIN” I am sure he did NOT get it either. But I do think he got it that I would not trust him again, just NOT WHY.

Just like Farwronged, he doesn’t KNOW ME ANY MORE, not the NEW ME, not the HONEST ME….not the me that sets boundaries and defends them. Not the ME that doesn’t lie and not the me that doesn’t tolerate lies either.

It has been almost exactly four years since the “summer of chaos” in which I had to flee for my life…during which time son C was duped into sacrificing our relationship for approval from the egg donor and for the approval of his wife and his “friend” (who at the time was farking his wife) and the approval of his P brother.

But that was NOT THE FIRST OR ONLY TIME son C has betrayed me in favor of P-son, but it will be the LAST. At least he got scared enough when he was facing down the barrel of a gun in the hands of his “Friend” and his wife was trying to take the phone out of his hand so he couldn’t call 911, that he is no longer going to be duped by his X-brother or the egg donor either. So for now, our relationship is that we have a MUTUAL ENEMY, so that makes us partners, but NOT FRIENDS.


One he’s been texting but it’s from various numbers. I know it’s him so I don’t bother. He hasn’t heard from me in almost 3 months so I guess he’s wondering what happened, he can’t believe I’m not still so in love trying to get his attention. Barf! Then he sent a text saying that this isn’t( his name) it’s his cousins phone and (name) was only using it. It’s so dumb and childish, especially when I could care less. They will do and say senseless things. The first time he texted last week I did reply who is it because I didn’t know the number when no one responded I knew it was him. Now I guess he mocking me, but for what? Insanity…..



can you change your phone number? i seem to remember that night not be possible for you. what i find, is that sooner or later i get hooked by some darn thing if NC is broken. and then i have to spend energy processing it and it sucks at my energy reserves.


I actually have a new phone that I now use as primary. A lot of people still have the old number and it would cost to break contract. I’m actually fine, I didn’t think I would be but I am. The more I learn the more I can predict his actions. It is still very bizarre cause I’m like who thinks of or says some of these things. I reflect back on all the bogus lies and noe I just feel disgust. He’s the opposite of all the pretty lies. Totally! I guess in another few months he’ll try to contact me again. And so on… until he can find another as he calls it serious girlfriend when we all know she’ll just be another willing victim to make him look good. He has a thing for pretty educated women, those are the girlfriends. Ha! All other women are just fucks,( his words).


Sky:I don’t know if he’s going through a rough time he’s the type that likes to upset people. He’s sadistic. It was looking for a response and maybe not, just another mind f$ #k.. he had the audacity to ask about my pregnancy, when I know he doesn’t care. I think they all test the waters just to see where our heads are.


farwronged: they just keep coming back until they find another reason not to. But I don’t think they ever leave us alone. At least in my experience. They keep coming back because they expect us to be the same person we were before the ‘explosions’.

They come back in childish, twisted, ways…
having other people contact us; texting and just being a real STALKER and harasser because they don’t want us to forget them. It is up to US to resist the thoughts. We KNOW what we have been dealing with. We KNOW things are not ever going to be right. How can a person ever make some of the things we have been through ‘right’ with a simple, cheap, ‘I am sorry! THERE: does that make it better?!” Well, actually, no. It doesn’t.

The amount of disrespect and disregard for my life and well being and/or anyone elses is purely unacceptable. There are no explanations sufficient to support a forgiveness of any kind. The only regard it deserves is NOTHING. THAT is what it deserves.


We are being punished because we figured it out and it is using our affection and our caring as a tool and a weapon because it doesn’t have anything else at it’s disposal.

“IT” wasn’t the ‘trauma’….”IT” was the ‘trigger’ for the doors to open to myself. To grow and to learn and to jump those hurdles. Change is a very painful process. But change is necessary if we are ever going to survive this.

Stress kills. I have come back from the brink to definitively say: stress does kill. They don’t deserve our lives.

farwronged: I can so completely relate. My “IT” comes back every 3 months whether welcomed or not. Like clock work; I could set my watch or calendar by it. It comes back over and over to see if there is anything it can ‘glean’ from us, yet, still. In my case, my “IT” is hoping I will be swooned or threatened into dropping legal charges and I seriously doubt that is going to happen.

An attempted contact was made the day before yesterday. I still have NOT uttered a peep and don’t intend to. I said every word to “IT” that will ever be said and I meant every one. END OF THAT STORY.

Stay strong. Be true to yourself. Take care of yourself.
Refusing to participate any more has afforded me the much needed, HEALTHY, peace of mind I needed after my heart attack and “IT” STILL persists as much as I don’t want it to.



I was reading some posts on facebook regarding the arguement about raising the debt ceiling. This was one post(forgive their spelling!):

“agree with the analag of two married people that have to cut back and look at their spending. But, what I don’t agree with, is that that marriage is a happy one, or a healthy one.
If I was on your show, I would make this point.
You have one partner Jacking up credit cards, lying about you, telling their friends your a monster at the House and doing everything you can to cause a divorce. On the other hand you have the side that hasn’t got it yet, trying to compremise, fix things, talk, maybe enroll in a Dave Ramsey class together…
I could go on…..”

So if a duffus who can’t spell GETS it about what spaths do to their marriages, why did it take ME so long???!!!

I found this post validating…. Lies and it weren’t my fault. (now back to some semblence of literacy!)

Hope to heal

KatyDid ~ It’s always easier to see dysfunction in a family when you’re on the outside, looking in. That’s where it sounds like Mr or Ms barely literate was coming from.

Don’t be so hard on yourself. You DID figure it out dear lady, and you’re on the healing journey. ((((HUGS))))



This string of lies is pretty bizarre. First they blamed their WWC loss on the lightning strikes, then to cover up for the steriod scandal they say they used deer gland medicine to treat the lightning strikes. You would like to feel sorry for people, but when their lies and poison kills everything in their path it is hard to. Why do we have to put up with so many of these @#$%-heads? I guess because the Lord lets the tares grow with the wheat, and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

Ox Drover


Yep, you got it….hadn’t thought of it that way, but you are RIGHT! That’s why.

KatyDid, I loved the article….and proves another point too, our educational system is shot to hades in a hand basket. Doesn’t sound like the person was dumb, just ILLITERATE.

And Hey, the thing that made me feel good at first at LF was there were people here who had more alphabet soup after their names than I did and they got DUPED TOO….Liane Leedom MD was one….so hey, it doesn’t mean you’re stupid or illiterate to get duped. Even VERY smart people get conned.


Yeah, wish I GOT it a lot sooner but in my defense, it was quite a bit more complicated. And yet….

OXY is absolutely on to something. It’s the lies that is the big red flag.

They don’t have to be spath. Lies is the sig that makes them TOXIC and toxic is enough. That has to be the standard. Telling yourself that there is an excuse, that they’re just gunshy from a previous relationship. Nope.

No matter what my husband did to me, it did not turn me into an immoral, lying, manipulative self absorbed jerk. Yet my husband is just that, and had NO bad gf’s EVER.

A person who is discovered to have lied (NOT a social lie like “i’ll call you”) has in essense told you that they are not trustworthy nor loyal nor considerate. Where is the future in a relationship without those values??

I remember when I caught my husband in his first REAL lie. It stunned me. Made me cry. Not b/c of the lie itself, but b/c I could NOT TELL HE WAS LYING, even as I KNEW what he said was a lie. I will admit I’ve lied, but I also know it was OBVIOUS. I told a lie rather than tell someone that the answer to their question was none of their business. I was afraid of offending them. Not any more. I have a NEW standard, thanks to a little extra enlightenment from OXY.

Yes, we do get conned. But in my case, once I learned he could lie without sending any signals, I should have ACCEPTED that I could not trust ANYTHING he said. That was ME trying to keep my white picket fence dream and finding years later, I am broken, broke, and starting anew as a woman older than her years in a bad economy, with few assets, and no support (yes you all are kind here but in reality, I am physically alone with NO one to go out with, associate with, work with, holiday with, etc. NO one to talk with or care what is happening to or with me.) I have to accept that I did a lot to myself. He was evil but I enabled him to do evil to me once I knew he could lie like that.

ps to you all: my puppy fell through, the owner had emergency surgury and his wife took the dogs and left. i now have a pound dog with pound dog problems…. still a rescuer HA! LOL! But al least a DOG has possibilities!!!


I agree with Ox, never feel inadequate or dumb. I felt thus way at first but just about everyone spath comes in contact with is fooled. They are great at concealing themselves and convincing their lies to be sincere truth. Feel smart and better than ever now that you know what they are and how to spot the next jerk. People take mental illness for a joke. Sociopathy doesn’t exist to some and is known as taboo. It is only out of people’s ignorance that they don’t get it. This puts them even more at risk for being duped and ending in our very same shoes.


And that person is not a duffus. It’s very likely that they have run into a sociopath and they are still in the stage where their spelling has been impacted. (as mine has been, I have to try very hard to spell correctly these days!)

What I love about that post is that this person GETS it, that our government leaders are spaths, exactly like the ones we have run from. They are pulling all the same tricks, using the same lies, fear tactics, word salad and psychological warfare. They are using our emotions against us to pit people and groups against each other. Once you’ve seen one spath, you’ve seen them all!

I think some of the more blatent lies that a spath tells, are just a systems check. They are testing their dupes to see where the boundaries are and what they can get away with. Even Kim ILL-Jerk, is testing to see how many of his people will believe his lies and how many others will LEARN to believe his lies.


I would say that any action that causes you to think WTF?? is reason to suspect you are dealing with a sociopath.

That’s very sound advice, and it applies even more broadly. Any action that causes you to think WTF??? is certainly a sign that a person is a weirdo of some kind, even if they’re not psychopathic. And nobody wants to end up with a flake like that, psychopath or not.

After a very pleasant evening, me, the 38 year-old says something complementary to my date, then I say “I have a very nice apartment, would you like to grab some beers and go back there after dinner?’

My date storms out of the restaurant. Outside, I see him nervously smoking a cigarette and make an attempt at damage repair.

“You offended my British reservedness.” I apologized and told him that it was not meant to be an advance…

That’s the whole trouble with people who pull stunts like that. It doesn’t make any difference just what kind of crazy stuff is going on in their heads that makes them do it. It doesn’t make any difference either whether they’re male or female, gay or straight. The effect of their behavior is the same. “Inexplicable” outbursts of this kind can knock a person off balance, so you end up feeling bewildered, wondering what (if anything) you “did wrong.” Then you’re left “apologizing” to them, frantically trying to “mend matters” when in fact you did nothing wrong in the least. It’s entirely THEIR problem, not yours. But the end result is that you can end up feeling “obligated” to such a person, forever running around trying to please them, or anyway trying desperately not to “offend” them. You end up “oviputamenambulating” as I call it (that’s “walking on eggshells” in plain English). Meanwhile they end up “walking” all over you!

“Offended my British reservedness” my ARSE! What a load of BULLCRAP! If such a situation ever occurs again, you could retort that HE offended YOUR “American hospitality”! Though I suggest a more suitable response would be to tell the person to GET OVER IT and stop acting like a baby! If they react by having a hissy fit and storming off altogether, so much the better! They’re not the kind of person you’d want a relationship with anyway.

Who knows what was wrong with this guy? “Histrionic personality disorder” perhaps? Or he could have been another nutty borderline. There are quite a few of those around. Whatever it was, he sounded neurotic as hell. The point is that it doesn’t make any difference what mental condition he’s afflicted with. The rest of us don’t want to BE with a person like that if we can help it, because we don’t want to be “afflicted” with it ourselves!


They lie and insult everyone’s intelligence.

My spath lied so much about where he had been living until the bailiffs caught up with him!!

So in a court of law under oath (UK, hopeless system), he had tied himself up in knots, so the judge (di*k head still under oath) invited the spath to write down where he had been living for the past 3 years. We had even ‘living in his car’ (pity me ploy…).

So we all sat there (while he went through getting out a paper and pen, huffing and puffing away), and we waited, and waited and waited ..even the idiot realised …so after 10 minutes ..his response ‘I can’t remember’!!!!

The judge just gave him a withering look …he did his small boy, pity me look ..she then asked ‘do you have mental health issues’ ..idiot ‘I am stressed’, judge ‘but this is your application, we are all here because you have not paid child maintenance and you have brought an action against Mrs H’..the idiot ‘I didn’t mean it, it’s her fault …’. WTF goes on in their deluded heads I have no idea ..and care not to any longer.

A spath actually believes that they are superior and of course everyone should believe them …he lost his case!!

This is a somewhat amusing episode ..but that spath has done terrible things to my children and me, pure evil, they don’t care about anyone but themselves.

Take care everyone, and hugs to anyone who have met this sub human type, they don’t care, they never did and they ‘chose’ you because you are a lovely kind, generous person, empathy, all the things they aren’t.



it’s nice to hear that you had the courts believing you.
Many of our spaths begin by putting all the law enforcement and judges in their pocket. That’s always the first step: brown nose authority. Then they move on to do their dirty deeds and know they’ll get away with it because the cops have already been compromised.



I think that we have false hope that the people that we love (eg. family members) can change for the better (miracles can happen, we might tell ourselves) over time, so we hold on to the expectation that our loved one will “see the light,” changing his/her ways (for the better). To me, you’re too hard on yourself. In many ways, I am in the same boat as you (broke, single, lonely, etc.), not having oodles of friends. I don’t downplay your circumstances (or anyone’s) knowing that what you’re experiencing is difficult, challenging. I’m thankful that you contribute to this website – it makes me feel less alone. Friends (in the real world) can come along in time – stay connected to the folks on this website until (and even after) the “physical” ones arrive.


Nice post bluejay.
I feel the same way.



Hi Skylar, you are so right ..put it this way, he had me arrested 14 times ..even for the ‘theft’ of my own car ..and even tried to have my then 11 year old son arrested ..the police believed every word out of its mouth ..One so called police inspector even took to emailing my own solicitor, and told my own solicitor not to tell me!!

Who did this weird policeman think was paying said solicitor. I then made a formal complaint under the data protection act, the police complaints commission ..caused a few waves ..and guess what ..even managed to get a half hearted apology. I would never help or trust the police again, I think they are a bunch of lying to**ers.

I feel sometimes that my whole past life, I lived on planet ga ga ..I will never trust another man as long as I live. I have also become a somewhat good detective ..the idiot ..even recently wrote to same judge (false address) claiming ‘harassment’ ..I was then sent a copy of said letter, wrote back to the court with evidence of his real address (he is thick).

He has gone a bit quiet of late it would appear wifey number 2 has slung him out as well I guess he is busy making her life as horrible as the pair of them made my childrens. This dreadful ‘woman’ told my then 11 year old ‘your father never wants to see or hear from you again ..good luck’. If 2 nutters ever deserved each other those 2 did ..and I hope (I know I shouldn’t) that she gets spathed ..karma ..

I could have hit back recently, but (and Oxy is one canny lady, thank you, I read every day), the more I don’t do ‘things’, the better I feel and its like, the whole grey rock thing, it really empowers you, I just stopped engaging in the ‘game’. I just wished I had not wasted so much of my time and energy on ‘it’.

This site has saved my sanity, because unless you have been there, you just don’t understand and never will.

I recently started seeing someone, those red flags were flying, the lies ..amazing ..anyway when you get ‘the game’, it is so easy to spot. To cut along story short, I did my ‘check on slimedog’, so got him to book a lovely restaurant (last supper), made him drive etc. Before he got home to the wife he had forgot to mention, I dumped him by text ..and no I did not sleep with said jerk ..but boy did it feel good.

Take care everyone, we all deserve peace x


Among other things, Oxy, I think your article highlights an important point about the variability among people. Among psychopaths in particular, but others as well. It can be very hard to pigeonhole a particular “type” of person, because people don’t always fit a stereotype, certainly not in every respect.

So on the one hand it’s perfectly true as you said that not all liars are psychopaths. Besides all the usual motives ordinary people can have for telling a lie now and again, some people for instance have a constant habit of lying to compensate for their own insecurities. Psychopaths on the other hand seem to lie almost by nature—but as you pointed out, they don’t always lie convincingly! Some do, but some don’t! That’s another facet of the “variability” I was referring to.

I’m sure the large majority of people have a stereotype of what they think a “psychopath” is like. Unfortunately as we know, this stereotype is often a very narrow one, since many people equate the word “psychopath” to the notion of a serial killer. A number of other people are better informed, and realize most psychopaths are not killers at all, but can still do harm in countless other ways. They may have an image of a psychopath as a “slick conman” for instance, and a plausible liar, which is a better fit with the majority. Just the same, I suspect all these stereotypes have one thing in common. They all conceptualize the psychopath as “clever” and “cunning,” slippery at “not getting caught” even as they perpetrate their evil deeds. However ruthless psychopaths may be toward others, whether for the sake of monetary gain or other advantages, whether to indulge purely sadistic impulses, they are still seen as intent on protecting themSELVES and looking after their OWN interests at all times—and very effective at it.

Yet that’s all that is, another stereotype. I dare say it fits a number of psychopaths fairly well. But not all, not by any means. Many psychopaths, while they do harm to others, are not at all good at looking after their own interests, and are just as liable to do harm to themselves in one way or another. That’s often because of their impulsive behavior, or it can result from the addictions that many psychopaths are prone to. It can also be because they’re not so smart and do things that get them caught, or earn them a bad reputation with others. Telling outrageously obvious lies is a good example of this, just as you were describing.

Hervey Cleckley did a great deal to round out our picture of the psychopath in The Mask of Sanity. That was because Cleckley’s sample of psychopaths was somewhat skewed. They were “patients” hospitalized in a psychiatric unit. This meant for one thing that most of them hadn’t done anything deadly enough to warrant a long term of imprisonment, or being locked away in a maximum security institution. It also meant many of them came from respectable families, influential enough to persuade police to hospitalize instead of jailing them—and affluent enough to pay the fees! But it did mean these particular psychopaths were not functional enough to keep going in everyday life and stay out of trouble. What most of them did was not evil on a grand scale. They ran out of money; they committed petty thefts and shoplifted; they got drunk and got into fights; the cops arrested them and they were back in the hospital again, over and over. But an overriding trait of this particular subgroup was their sheer incompetence. Cleckley too remarked on their constant propensity for lying.

Inconsistency is the hallmark of many an abusive personality, whether it’s due to “mood swings,” “psychotic episodes,” or some other cause. This is just as true with psychopaths, where I dare say the impulsivity resulting from “disinhibition” is responsible for so much inconsistent behavior. Yet there are other kinds of “inconsistency” as well.

This subject of “lying” caught my attention because I was recently reflecting on the lies told by a man I’ll refer to as “the Vicar’s brother.” I feel safe enough in saying the Vicar’s brother was a psychopath, and if they knew all the facts I’m sure most people here would agree. This is just one more example of how psychopaths can spring from a perfectly respectable family. (Though I have to admit that a few vicars themselves have been quite naughty in one way or another—including more than one “Vicar of Christ” in person. The infamous John XII for instance, who “turned the Lateran into a brothel”…) But that’s beside the point. This particular Vicar had no stain on his character that I’ve heard about. But his brother turned out to be a very bad man who told more than a few lies, with a bit of truth mixed in for good measure.

Sorting out what was true and what wasn’t was just one problem. Some of this man’s lies were quite plausible, at least to begin with. Though I wondered afterwards if some of those that seemed most plausible to an ordinary person might in fact be the biggest whoppers of all! Other lies he told were credible enough at the time—until the facts came to light, when his story fell apart. And some of his lies, while nowhere near as outrageous as pretending to five holes-in-one, did invite immediate derision. But I must say in his defense that he was put on the spot where he had to come up with some story or other. If it was decidedly lame, perhaps it was the best he could manage at the time.

There were other inconsistencies in his behavior. More than once I had to ask myself: “Even if he was a psychopath… and more so if he was… why on earth did he do THAT?” And on at least one occasion he told the truth where I would have expected him to tell a lie!

But since he got what he wanted anyway on that occasion, perhaps the Vicar’s brother was clever after all. Retelling his story in detail would be quite lengthy (though it is a matter of public record), but if I ever get the time it might be worth retelling it here some day.


“Betrayal Bonds” and “Trauma Bonds”…I have been reading and found this great article that explains it…

Wanted to share:


I wasn’t really aware of this until just now. Another ‘stunner’. The more I learn, the more I realize I just don’t know anything….

Check out this report:

Lone Wolf


Great link! 🙂

Moveingon..I am so sorry to hear about the trouble your awful spath got you into…glad you got rid, have “got it” and are indeed… moving on.. saw through that last creep. 🙂

Redwald.. You are so right…people’s stereotyped preconceptions are a great cause of pain when others find it hard to believe that your spath is anything other than how they appear to be.. this is due to their own fears and their own stuff..they would rather not believe that their stereotyping will not keep them safe, quite the contrary..!

My spath sister masquerades as a self-sacrificing spinster type and a pillar in the community etc etc…64 years old, intelligent, articulate…NOONE would guess. Which makes her dangerous as hell.

There is one good thing about the outrageous lie thing tho. I found it very clarifying. Up until then, I think i was still trying to find an excuse for her, to see if there was a way back to decency for her despite the abuse.

But when she proceeded to inform me, in a chilling yet calm way..of my history as a 15 year old knife criminal..the ways in which i attacked and hurt people, how i was then referred to social services etc..i then knew she was truly gone and there was no way back. Because NONE of that ever happened. It did freak me out tho and still does. And i am worried she may report me still as she seems so convincing..

The really annoying thing is when i have tried to tell a couple of people this as a means of getting through about all the crazy stuff.. and even tho i lead with the fact that it never happened.. they still tend to ask…”come on then, tell me the truth.. DID you do that”??

So i give up and will just stick to sharing on here and to my partner.. *deep sigh”

Does anyone have any other tips on dealing with this kinda reaction..or do we need to just accept that, for most people, only “seeing – or experiencing! – is believing?” I suspect so..

Healing thoughts to you all… 🙂


I share my ‘life story’ with only very few people for the very reason they don’t believe it. Kind of hard ‘getting help’ when you are called a ‘liar’ everywhere you go so you learn to just keep it all to yourself; deal with it; compartmentalize it; put it to bed and move on.

That is why LoveFraud is such an amazing place.
Because we can come here and say what we are going through and we don’t taunt one another but understand. We are actually HELPING each other over this horrible and ugly time in our lives.

I don’t tell people anything, usually. I have told my counselors more than I think I ever have anyone, really. Just horrid things that nobody would really believe and I can’t say as I blame them. To all of these horrid things, I was a spectator and trapped and when I became of age, and I realized that we ALL CHOOSE our paths in this life, I made changes. Drastic changes in my life and the way I lived or was going to live. Acceptable v. Unacceptable.

I am amazed I allowed myself to get so sucked into the ‘dream’….happy you enjoyed the link, Lone Wolf…

The x sp’s x wife said to me once: “I am so ashamed that I allowed this to happen to me. I am almost embarrassed that I loved him.” I told her to NEVER be ashamed of loving someone in this life. Never. To never be ashamed of it. That if there were any embarrassment and/or shame to be had, it belonged to HIM and still does. Unfortunately, “IT” doesn’t see things that way. But, of course it wouldn’t. Right?


Duped – brilliant links – Such a mine of information. Thank you.


Morning candy: I read all afternoon yesterday. 🙂
I knew it was ‘something’ going on…hahahahahahahahahahaha
Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-took me HOW MANY YEARS to learn this?! 🙂

Yes, exceptional information we should ALL read. It has a way of putting a little perspective where the holes are; don’t you agree?

Every single last one of us, come hook or crook! You watch!
And you know “WHY”??? — Because we WANT TO. 🙂 xxoo



Duped ..thank you and lone wolf. The outsiders don’t understand (why should they), they just think you, me are crazy. You are right Duped to keep it to yourself, I learnt that no one would believe me ..although I did get some ‘justice’ in the end.

What I realised, was I am a lot stronger than I would ever believe, my children and family get it children ..right pair of cynics ..they can spot a spath even better than me. However, I think knowledge is power and this site a lifeline.

Thank you for the links, the more I ‘get it’, the more I move on, never the same trusting fool but I made mistakes as well, so I am slowly coming to terms with my own culpability, which has been the most difficult.

Care to all.


Morning from the left coast of the U.S. moveingon!

Oh yes, a lifetime of ‘keeping it to myself’, I am afraid.
If we are patient we will see justice, whether inside or out. 🙂

Oh yes, we are amazingly STRONG to have survived this and still speak words more than uttering syllables. I completely understand this. I have never met such evilness and vileness in my entire lifetime and I came from a pretty dysfunctional family, growing up. It’s really shocking when I think of it in terms such as that!!!!

Yes, movingon: knowledge IS power. We need to empower ourselves and feed our souls and realize that we are ENTITLED to say NO – no matter IF our emotions are taunting us. That is what sets us apart from all the rest. 😉

Your welcome for the links. How could I NOT share? xxoo
I am determined to make it the length of this journey, you know! I am ABSOLUTELY determined to overcome this ‘addiction’ and to put it aside and live the rest of my life in peace. Anybody with me???!!!! 🙂




Thanks for the links. I saved them.



You are spot on about outrageous behavior:

The effect of their behavior is the same. “Inexplicable” outbursts of this kind can knock a person off balance, so you end up feeling bewildered, wondering what (if anything) you “did wrong.” Then you’re left “apologizing” to them, frantically trying to “mend matters” when in fact you did nothing wrong in the least.

This is exactly as I felt and this was only one example. He was never violent or directly verbally abusive, just inexplicable outbursts that left me bewildered.

Let me add again that while he is pulling these “proper and reserved British” stunts with me, unknown to me at that time is that online he was various profiles online with stated interests of “boys, beers and messing around” or similar. He is also a flight attendant, a profession not known for its purity…

I do not think he is histrionic because otherwise his is very unemotional nor do I think he is borderline as they tend not to be manipulative and he was very manipulative. The previous evening was lovely and when I left him and his friends, in the cab ride home I received a nice text telling me how he was very much looking forward to the next date.

All the evidence I have is that he is at least mildly sociopathic, only because I do not know enough about his past and if it includes any criminal behavior.

What I do believe, pieced together from his online profiles and timing of his outrageous behaviors, is that he is HIV+ and was hiding that from me. For that, I am grateful that he did not take sexual advantage of me.


Hello everyone –

I was very bored at work last night and I stumbled across this somewhat interesting clip on Youtube:

At any rate, as I was watching this I was trying to decide whether or not this young woman has any traits that could be “abstracted” and universalized as pertaining to the “sociopath category”. (Of course, I’m being rather “unscientific” here in taking literally her assertion that she’s a sociopath: it could admittedly be otherwise, though I see no reason not to assume that this is probably an accurate portrayal.) In other words, is there anything about her “affect” which strikes you as peculiar? Because in my many years as a teacher, I think I’ve encountered this “personality type” in numerous settings, and it has always given me a very distinct feeling of unpleasantness and “unwholesomeness” (If you’re really bored, watch some of her other videos and you’ll probably see what I mean!)

Not that I’m making a “normative” or moral judgment about her – like I said, I’m simply trying to look at this person “scientifically” and determine whether or not there are any “generalizable” traits (our “red flags”) for sociopathy. Personally, I’m a very poor interpreter of “feminine affect” (haha), so I’m wondering if any of the women here are getting the same “vibe” that I am (We might call it the “stay away unwholesome vibe”!).

At any rate, the thing which most strikes me most about this woman, is the way in which her emotional/affective state seems to be unconnected to any integrated or underlying personality structure. (I realize this is a very “subjective” impression, so don’t chide me too much for that!). In other words, she’s “all on the surface”, and the surface is all there is.

Nevertheless, that brings me to another point. Even though she comes off as being a decidedly vapid sort of person, she at the same time seems to exude a very spirited and vulgar fascination with herself (I fear that a weak-minded male might well take this for “charm” or charisma.) It’s quite a curious combination, actually: emptiness being put forward as a “plenitude.” (In the Sartrean sense, in case there are any philosophy students here!) To be sure, I see this more and more in our increasingly narcissistic society – people making videos and whatnot, regarding the most trivial and meaningless details of their lives; and yet doing so in a manner that says, “I’m such a complex and endlessly fascinating person! – wouldn’t you just love to know me and be a part of my amazing life!”

Well, not me! But the point I’m making here is that this (again, regardless of whether or not we literally accept this woman’s “self-diagnosis”) is precisely where sociopaths show such facility and adroitness: i.e., “marketing” their essential nothingness as a “fullness of being” that the rest of us lack and therefore should desire. (I know that’s a bit abstract, but I think this “existentialist” framework is particularly apt here.)

Be that as it may, I really would be interested in any “female-ist” perspective on this matter. If nothing else, I’d like your input as to whether or not this is a “common” type that you encounter in your day to day lives – or would you say that she is simply a “statistical outlier?” As I said, I personally witnessed this variety of person with an alarming frequency during my final years as a teacher (alas, one of the many reasons that I “jumped ship”!) So maybe it should be associated with the rising self-preoccupation and narcissism of the younger generation? That’s my hunch, at any rate, but I’m not entirely sure. Any insights?


Dear Duped,

Good day to you, by the way! I haven’t had time to read very much on this site lately, but from what I’ve seen of your posts, you seem to be doing quite well. Anyhow, I certainly hope that’s the case! At the very least, you will always be in my thoughts and prayers – even when I’m too busy to visit LF on a regular basis.

All the best to you, Dear lady.


interesting video. I also like your take on how the woman presents herself. I don’t think she is a sociopath at all, she’s just an extreme narcissist. I say this because I think a sociopath would never remove their mask. Their need to appear “real” all the while knowing that they aren’t “real” is part of their pathology. They need their facade like we need oxygen.

This woman is shallow, that’s for sure but she doesn’t seem to get that she is “missing a limb” because she’s always been that way and it seems normal to her. I think a true sociopath is missing all 4 limbs and is deeply aware of it because he sees other people walking around with all 4 limbs and he envies them and feels that life has treated him unfairly. So he put on his 4 prosthesises and does his best to go out and cut off other peoples’ limbs because if he can’t have limbs neither will anyone else.



That woman is not a sociopath. She is a Narcissist pretending to be a sociopath to boost her own self-image as a Femme Fatale.

Sociopaths have a facial affect that his hard to describe that goes along with their inability to recognize facial expressions other than anger.

My x-spath had a very monotone talking style and the classic stare. She exhibits neither. My x-spath also has a look of emptiness and in no picture I have ever seen of him does he look happy.


Constantine, My Friend: Good Day to you.
I am doing alright, thanks for inquiring. I hope and pray you are as well. Life goes on 🙂

I watched your video and there is SOMETHING wrong with this woman. I would be hard pressed to say she is ‘anything’ just by this video but her thoughts are representative to me of someone who has something wrong with them in the sense she is so mean. I would suggest that perhaps she is bi polar or has a personality disorder. MAYBE. Really hard to say not knowing her. She isn’t presenting any particular outstanding traits of sociopathy to me. She is SAYING she is sociopathic however she isn’t exhibiting many of the same traits I have seen.

She seems very shallow, complaining about the baby crying, etc., but we only see the surface of her disdain. It is difficult to say without knowing her other actions or seeing her relate to others on an interpersonal level.

So, my estimation would be that she has SOME sort of personality disorder which makes her feel the way she does. Just because someone is admitting sociopathy doesn’t mean that she isn’t nor that she is. Her other actions in relation to LIFE itself is the proof in the pudding.

As you can see, I am open minded in the sense of not labeling people sociopath unless they truly do deserve the title. My x sp used to openly admit “IT’s” problems and shortcomings in the hopes that it could convince people to feel sorry for it. That somehow if it ‘admitted’ it’s shortcomings, that justifies it’s actions and that is enough. Sometimes it isn’t enough. Sometimes the things they do to us is so horrid that ‘I am sorries” just don’t cut it. Sometimes their actions step over that boundary and become more than vile and disgusting, sometimes their actions become psychopathic and they truly don’t care.

Nice to read you Constantine. I hope that life is treating you well. Always in my thoughts with prayers and affection,



Dear Sky, BBE,

Thanks for the feedback. I think you are both right in attributing to her a high degree of narcissism. And it might well be that this is a case of “Malignant Narcissism” rather than Sociopathy – I’m still undecided.

Nevertheless, I think that she somewhat straddles that weird borderland region where the one disorder really starts to shade into and become indistinguishable from the other. (We might perhaps call her a “Narcissopath.”)

Also, if we take her statement about “not feeling anything if her best friend should die” (lucky friend!) at face value – rather than seeing it as a “pose” – then that rather runs against a purely “NPD” diagnosis. (Because N.s are supposedly able to feel grief like the rest of us.)

As far as BBE’s comment about the “sociopathic stare,” I would just add that that is not necessarily present in every case. When it is, it is admittedly quite striking and unforgettable. (At least according to those who have experienced it.) However, some S’s. are remarkable “mimicks” – and as far as their exterior goes – they “act the part” with consummate skill (i.e. no “reptilian ogling” and so forth.)

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