By Joyce Alexander, RNP (Retired)
Psychopaths sometimes don’t know enough about how the rest of the world thinks to tell a “good” lie. I saw the following article about North Korea’s soccer team and how they had been apparently caught in a doping scandal, but were claiming that it was really an herbal medication that made them test positive for steroids.
The excuse given was that the team members had been struck by lightening and they had decided, heroically, to compete anyway. The steroids were accidentally taken with traditional Chinese medicines.
I have recently found other articles about the “stories” of the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-II, that made me laugh out loud. In one article, he supposedly played his first round of golf and scored a 38, including five holes-in-one.
One of the things I have noticed about many psychopaths, and others who frequently lie, is that their lies are so “off the wall” that no one over three years old would believe a word of them. They will “lie when the truth will fit better” is a saying I’ve heard all my life. This seems to be especially true with pathological liars and psychopaths.
Dr. Robert Hare, well-known psychopathy researcher, says that psychopaths have difficulty realizing that their lies are unbelievable, even when the evidence that they are untrue is literally in front of them. In some way, the two sides of their brains can’t connect the evidence in front of their eyes.
An example of this are the lies told by Casey Anthony when she led the police to the place she supposedly worked, even going to a cubical, when she knew that she didn’t work for that company. She also lied about leaving her daughter with “Zanny the Nanny,” when such a person didn’t exist. Anthony even led the police to the door of the empty apartment with the police in tow.
Not all liars are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are liars. Liars signal that they are not to be trusted. But if you hear a lie that is so outrageous that it makes you laugh out loud, or have the feeling that the person telling it must be “crazy—”look out! You very well may be dealing with a psychopath.
KatyDid,
I think that we have false hope that the people that we love (eg. family members) can change for the better (miracles can happen, we might tell ourselves) over time, so we hold on to the expectation that our loved one will “see the light,” changing his/her ways (for the better). To me, you’re too hard on yourself. In many ways, I am in the same boat as you (broke, single, lonely, etc.), not having oodles of friends. I don’t downplay your circumstances (or anyone’s) knowing that what you’re experiencing is difficult, challenging. I’m thankful that you contribute to this website – it makes me feel less alone. Friends (in the real world) can come along in time – stay connected to the folks on this website until (and even after) the “physical” ones arrive.
Nice post bluejay.
I feel the same way.
DUPED
Hi Skylar, you are so right ..put it this way, he had me arrested 14 times ..even for the ‘theft’ of my own car ..and even tried to have my then 11 year old son arrested ..the police believed every word out of its mouth ..One so called police inspector even took to emailing my own solicitor, and told my own solicitor not to tell me!!
Who did this weird policeman think was paying said solicitor. I then made a formal complaint under the data protection act, the police complaints commission ..caused a few waves ..and guess what ..even managed to get a half hearted apology. I would never help or trust the police again, I think they are a bunch of lying to**ers.
I feel sometimes that my whole past life, I lived on planet ga ga ..I will never trust another man as long as I live. I have also become a somewhat good detective ..the idiot ..even recently wrote to same judge (false address) claiming ‘harassment’ ..I was then sent a copy of said letter, wrote back to the court with evidence of his real address (he is thick).
He has gone a bit quiet of late ..as it would appear wifey number 2 has slung him out as well ..so I guess he is busy making her life as horrible as the pair of them made my childrens. This dreadful ‘woman’ told my then 11 year old ‘your father never wants to see or hear from you again ..good luck’. If 2 nutters ever deserved each other those 2 did ..and I hope (I know I shouldn’t) that she gets spathed ..karma ..
I could have hit back recently, but (and Oxy is one canny lady, thank you, I read every day), the more I don’t do ‘things’, the better I feel and its like, the whole grey rock thing, it really empowers you, I just stopped engaging in the ‘game’. I just wished I had not wasted so much of my time and energy on ‘it’.
This site has saved my sanity, because unless you have been there, you just don’t understand and never will.
I recently started seeing someone, those red flags were flying, the lies ..amazing ..anyway when you get ‘the game’, it is so easy to spot. To cut along story short, I did my ‘check on slimedog’, so got him to book a lovely restaurant (last supper), made him drive etc. Before he got home to the wife he had forgot to mention, I dumped him by text ..and no I did not sleep with said jerk ..but boy did it feel good.
Take care everyone, we all deserve peace x
Among other things, Oxy, I think your article highlights an important point about the variability among people. Among psychopaths in particular, but others as well. It can be very hard to pigeonhole a particular “type” of person, because people don’t always fit a stereotype, certainly not in every respect.
So on the one hand it’s perfectly true as you said that not all liars are psychopaths. Besides all the usual motives ordinary people can have for telling a lie now and again, some people for instance have a constant habit of lying to compensate for their own insecurities. Psychopaths on the other hand seem to lie almost by nature—but as you pointed out, they don’t always lie convincingly! Some do, but some don’t! That’s another facet of the “variability” I was referring to.
I’m sure the large majority of people have a stereotype of what they think a “psychopath” is like. Unfortunately as we know, this stereotype is often a very narrow one, since many people equate the word “psychopath” to the notion of a serial killer. A number of other people are better informed, and realize most psychopaths are not killers at all, but can still do harm in countless other ways. They may have an image of a psychopath as a “slick conman” for instance, and a plausible liar, which is a better fit with the majority. Just the same, I suspect all these stereotypes have one thing in common. They all conceptualize the psychopath as “clever” and “cunning,” slippery at “not getting caught” even as they perpetrate their evil deeds. However ruthless psychopaths may be toward others, whether for the sake of monetary gain or other advantages, whether to indulge purely sadistic impulses, they are still seen as intent on protecting themSELVES and looking after their OWN interests at all times—and very effective at it.
Yet that’s all that is, another stereotype. I dare say it fits a number of psychopaths fairly well. But not all, not by any means. Many psychopaths, while they do harm to others, are not at all good at looking after their own interests, and are just as liable to do harm to themselves in one way or another. That’s often because of their impulsive behavior, or it can result from the addictions that many psychopaths are prone to. It can also be because they’re not so smart and do things that get them caught, or earn them a bad reputation with others. Telling outrageously obvious lies is a good example of this, just as you were describing.
Hervey Cleckley did a great deal to round out our picture of the psychopath in The Mask of Sanity. That was because Cleckley’s sample of psychopaths was somewhat skewed. They were “patients” hospitalized in a psychiatric unit. This meant for one thing that most of them hadn’t done anything deadly enough to warrant a long term of imprisonment, or being locked away in a maximum security institution. It also meant many of them came from respectable families, influential enough to persuade police to hospitalize instead of jailing them—and affluent enough to pay the fees! But it did mean these particular psychopaths were not functional enough to keep going in everyday life and stay out of trouble. What most of them did was not evil on a grand scale. They ran out of money; they committed petty thefts and shoplifted; they got drunk and got into fights; the cops arrested them and they were back in the hospital again, over and over. But an overriding trait of this particular subgroup was their sheer incompetence. Cleckley too remarked on their constant propensity for lying.
Inconsistency is the hallmark of many an abusive personality, whether it’s due to “mood swings,” “psychotic episodes,” or some other cause. This is just as true with psychopaths, where I dare say the impulsivity resulting from “disinhibition” is responsible for so much inconsistent behavior. Yet there are other kinds of “inconsistency” as well.
This subject of “lying” caught my attention because I was recently reflecting on the lies told by a man I’ll refer to as “the Vicar’s brother.” I feel safe enough in saying the Vicar’s brother was a psychopath, and if they knew all the facts I’m sure most people here would agree. This is just one more example of how psychopaths can spring from a perfectly respectable family. (Though I have to admit that a few vicars themselves have been quite naughty in one way or another—including more than one “Vicar of Christ” in person. The infamous John XII for instance, who “turned the Lateran into a brothel”…) But that’s beside the point. This particular Vicar had no stain on his character that I’ve heard about. But his brother turned out to be a very bad man who told more than a few lies, with a bit of truth mixed in for good measure.
Sorting out what was true and what wasn’t was just one problem. Some of this man’s lies were quite plausible, at least to begin with. Though I wondered afterwards if some of those that seemed most plausible to an ordinary person might in fact be the biggest whoppers of all! Other lies he told were credible enough at the time—until the facts came to light, when his story fell apart. And some of his lies, while nowhere near as outrageous as pretending to five holes-in-one, did invite immediate derision. But I must say in his defense that he was put on the spot where he had to come up with some story or other. If it was decidedly lame, perhaps it was the best he could manage at the time.
There were other inconsistencies in his behavior. More than once I had to ask myself: “Even if he was a psychopath… and more so if he was… why on earth did he do THAT?” And on at least one occasion he told the truth where I would have expected him to tell a lie!
But since he got what he wanted anyway on that occasion, perhaps the Vicar’s brother was clever after all. Retelling his story in detail would be quite lengthy (though it is a matter of public record), but if I ever get the time it might be worth retelling it here some day.
“Betrayal Bonds” and “Trauma Bonds”…I have been reading and found this great article that explains it…
Wanted to share:
http://www.healing-arts.org/healing_trauma_therapy/traumabonding-traumaticbonds.htm#definition_trauma
I wasn’t really aware of this until just now. Another ‘stunner’. The more I learn, the more I realize I just don’t know anything….
Check out this report:
http://www.markmeans.com/clientimages/36010/sexaddictionfiles/csattraumabondscourse.pdf
Duped
Great link! 🙂
Moveingon..I am so sorry to hear about the trouble your awful spath got you into…glad you got rid, have “got it” and are indeed… moving on.. saw through that last creep. 🙂
Redwald.. You are so right…people’s stereotyped preconceptions are a great cause of pain when others find it hard to believe that your spath is anything other than how they appear to be.. this is due to their own fears and their own stuff..they would rather not believe that their stereotyping will not keep them safe, quite the contrary..!
My spath sister masquerades as a self-sacrificing spinster type and a pillar in the community etc etc…64 years old, intelligent, articulate…NOONE would guess. Which makes her dangerous as hell.
There is one good thing about the outrageous lie thing tho. I found it very clarifying. Up until then, I think i was still trying to find an excuse for her, to see if there was a way back to decency for her despite the abuse.
But when she proceeded to inform me, in a chilling yet calm way..of my history as a 15 year old knife criminal..the ways in which i attacked and hurt people, how i was then referred to social services etc..i then knew she was truly gone and there was no way back. Because NONE of that ever happened. It did freak me out tho and still does. And i am worried she may report me still as she seems so convincing..
The really annoying thing is when i have tried to tell a couple of people this as a means of getting through about all the crazy stuff.. and even tho i lead with the fact that it never happened.. they still tend to ask…”come on then, tell me the truth.. DID you do that”??
So i give up and will just stick to sharing on here and to my partner.. *deep sigh”
Does anyone have any other tips on dealing with this kinda reaction..or do we need to just accept that, for most people, only “seeing – or experiencing! – is believing?” I suspect so..
Healing thoughts to you all… 🙂
I share my ‘life story’ with only very few people for the very reason they don’t believe it. Kind of hard ‘getting help’ when you are called a ‘liar’ everywhere you go so you learn to just keep it all to yourself; deal with it; compartmentalize it; put it to bed and move on.
That is why LoveFraud is such an amazing place.
Because we can come here and say what we are going through and we don’t taunt one another but understand. We are actually HELPING each other over this horrible and ugly time in our lives.
I don’t tell people anything, usually. I have told my counselors more than I think I ever have anyone, really. Just horrid things that nobody would really believe and I can’t say as I blame them. To all of these horrid things, I was a spectator and trapped and when I became of age, and I realized that we ALL CHOOSE our paths in this life, I made changes. Drastic changes in my life and the way I lived or was going to live. Acceptable v. Unacceptable.
I am amazed I allowed myself to get so sucked into the ‘dream’….happy you enjoyed the link, Lone Wolf…
The x sp’s x wife said to me once: “I am so ashamed that I allowed this to happen to me. I am almost embarrassed that I loved him.” I told her to NEVER be ashamed of loving someone in this life. Never. To never be ashamed of it. That if there were any embarrassment and/or shame to be had, it belonged to HIM and still does. Unfortunately, “IT” doesn’t see things that way. But, of course it wouldn’t. Right?
Duped – brilliant links – Such a mine of information. Thank you.
Morning candy: I read all afternoon yesterday. 🙂
I knew it was ‘something’ going on…hahahahahahahahahahaha
Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-took me HOW MANY YEARS to learn this?! 🙂
Yes, exceptional information we should ALL read. It has a way of putting a little perspective where the holes are; don’t you agree?
WE ARE GOING TO COME THROUGH THIS AND BE ALRIGHT.
Every single last one of us, come hook or crook! You watch!
And you know “WHY”??? — Because we WANT TO. 🙂 xxoo
Duh-duh-duh-duh-Dupedster