Why do psychopaths go after what they want regardless of the negative consequences they may experience? According to the journal Nature Neuroscience, the answer may be chemical—an overactive dopamine reward system.
Read Driven toward reward without regard for consequence on Time.com.
Read the scientific study, Mesolimbic dopamine reward system hypersensitivity in individuals with psychopathic traits, in Nature Neuroscience.
Link submitted by a Lovefraud reader via Facebook.
Our Family Wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
I see my post from last night (1:30am approx) just under your “yes” answer to onestep…
Flower….I’m sorry…
All I’m seeing under my YES post at 1:28am is Oxy’s post at 8isham…then CaMoms post to you this am…..
I don’t show your post? Freaky!!!
Can you cut and paste it here.
Flower,
Do your kids go to his home for visits & the friend lives on the property I think? I don’t know, but would think the friend is not appropriate to be around kids with record of local harassment. Carrying a gun in his car without a permit–don’t know where you are, but i think here in CA with no priors, would most likely get a fine & gun confiscated. Not enough to really do much…but may be enough to really infuriate him. But very scary to know that he has a gun in his car.
Witty, Erin, very good advice for dealing with the ex. But the friend is an unknown for now…so not too predictable. Causing accidents and threats and destroying property—he isn’t looking too good already from police point of view. I was fortunate I had “home court” advantage–if I needed it, my daughter’s dad is cousin to the police chief here. Never had to play that card, but came close.
Do the police know what’s happening? Do you have a good contact there? And in DA’s office? Threats are reportable.
In the manic stage they can get really grandiose and bizarre.
But depends on *how* manic, etc. The gay thing is not really relevant–my ex was gay (i found out) and has ads up now in Florida looking for women under his name and men under nickname. Does go to character, but that’s about it.
It sounds as if you are doing all you can. Keep digging and documenting.
Do you know if he has a record out of state? Or how he and your ex know each other? Any idea why he’s there, other than to apparently freeload & make himself “useful” as a spy for your ex?
You have to make your & your children’s safety #1 priority. Pepper spray or Mace in your car and in the house. Most bullies are just that–bullies. They don’t act on threats. But with the mix of mental illness, they are unpredictable.
Please keep posting and stay very safe. Dogs are good for alerting you to anyone outside, even little dogs. Years ago I was stalked and terrified…before cell phones, etc. He finally blew up my car (parked in front of the house) then disappeared. Guess that satisfied him…
Please do post often, Flower. You asked about a diagnosis for your ex…don’t think you can get one without the ex sitting down for evaluation and doubt he would do that.
We’re here for you and pulling for you…
flower – best not to post right now.
Dear Witsend,
I am just now reading your posts from last week… I havent been online as my son is having a rough go of it since getting the viral illness. Ive heard that each time a child w/diabetes gets a viral illness it can set their system askew — thus requiring increased doses of insulin — so been trying to regulate him again and get back in good diabetic control – still in process.
I just wanted to let you know that I DO UNDERSTAND what you have explained. I think I was offering a way for you to end up in the same place you wish to be — without your son under the same roof. But I was offering suggestions in a way that allowed you to let your son take the lead by summizing “crap, this woman isnt going to budge, its not worth it for me to pursue going back home any further” — I dont think I was clear with that. I suggested you make a list for him, set boundaries, keep YOUR REALITY clear amidst his UNREALISTIC VIEWPOINT. I guess thats how I dealt with my Mom. Eventually she would give up trying to contact me – because I kept my rules and my vision very CLEAR to her – get on meds or dont contact me. Thats not what you can say to your son – but my efforts were to make it appear as if you were a semi-willing participant (so he cant attack you that you werent offering a place in the middle (Even though there would be no real intention on your behalf) when dealing with someone of his nature I felt it best that you appear to be trying to make progress – but ultimately HE HAS TO MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS – and he will have no interest in that. Thus, HIM being the one to make the move onward and forward away from trying to come back to your home. Its like reverse psychology. Oxy, it is true that I am not 100 percent convinced that Witttys son is exactly like your son — I hope you receive this with the openness and honesty that comes with it. I think he has similarities but I dont think he is on the same level. I know you do, and I respect that , and I think Witty has to take that in the highest regard and err on the side of caution so I support your advice to Witsend completely. Its best to be safe when dealing with situations like these.
And you are right Witsend, my x-S didnt respect me nor keep his word. But had I known to respect myself and all that comes with it – he would not have remained in my life. I would have set boundaries and had expectations from a friend/lover and I wouldnt have continued to see him or partake in situations with him.
I think what I was offering to you was another way to approach it – to get the same end result you are looking for. With these types of people/personalities the creativity level has to nearly surpass theirs — almost have to plan how to get the end result without having you appear to be the bad one — and I know you will always be the bad one in his eyes – but by being able to say look this is what I offered, I WAS willing, I tried to meet you half way, I had requirements because I am your Mom and I respect myself – and I will NEVER go back to the place we were in under the same roof. I dont want that for you and I dont want that for myself. So unless you are willing to live with normal healthy rules and requirements coming back here is not an option for you.
I hope Im not frustrating you Witsend, but I think I may have been in my responses to you. I am not viewing it or treating him or expecting him to be NORMAL – what Im suggesting is that you treat him as you would any individual who tried to live with you without boundaries and respect. You let him know the deal (and I suggested twisting it that you found out you do have rights where you live when minor is 17 and left home)…etc…. just tossing it back to him in a way that says – Hey son, you may choose to live by your own rules -and get in and out of your own trouble – but that wont float under my roof. Things must change drastically before you can ever come back here.
I know saying that doesnt mean he will miraculously change — I just believe saying that will let him know you are not going to be a pushover and you are willing to go to court over it if he has no intentions of living by normal rules and restrictions.
I hope Ive made sense. IF not, Im sorry. I have witnessed it all with my Mom including her parents calling the police when she arrived to the house just looking for a place to sleep – but I understood the boundaries and rules and restrictions they had to enforce with their daughter as she lived in her own world. A mental illness. Which isnt what your son has been diagnosed with – but the way they handled it was the same.
Always offering the reality of what could be == if she CHOSE to change…
It never happened…until the last six months of her life.
I think of you more than you know Witsend, I send prayers your way and always believe you will find the strength to get through everything he sends your way. I know my Grandmother had many a moment where she surrendered…once in a car in a church parking lot, another time in a courthouse. My heart reaches out to you and my suggestions are merely that — if it seemed that I didnt understand, Im sorry I wasnt clear enough especially for you and Oxy. I do get it…I just offer a different approach – consistent and frustrating – but I believe one that will get the result you are trying to get. xoxo LTL
I am unable to stay online and continue to read right now and I so want to!!!!!!!. But I think of so many of you and send my prayers and strength and love and light to ALL of you! ps. Donna way to go with the school system. It gave me chills and smiles and tears…as its EXACTLY what I would like to see happen across the world – early education!!!!!!!! xoxo LTL
Thanks Ca mom..I do have dx..bipolar N. Just not ASPD. I have 2 dogs which makes me feel safer. Friend and he met in high school so long way back. Very strange relationship. Thanks for all advice. i will keep reading . Safety is my main concern …the friend is really jealous, nutty, irrational kook
learning,
You don’t ever have to feel the need to apologize for any of the suggestions you have ever given to me.
I have a great respect for you. Your viewpoint and ideas are always straight from your heart.
My frustration in all of this really comes from a place that is hard to explain. Because even though I am talking about a teenager, a young person, what he is doesn’t “feel” like a teenage-young person “thing”. And I forget that sometimes.
I try and interact with him as if he were just an average teenager.
But he is so good at creating this atmosphere of insanity (in a split second) and crazymaking that when I am right there with him, in the midst of it all, it doesn’t matter what I say or what I do. I can set boundaries, I can speak logic, but that is as far as it goes.
He is to wrapped up in his own agenda. And generally speaking he usually goes into attack mode. With him almost anything you might say he uses against you (by spinning/twisting it to his own meaning) and it gives him new territory to explore to degrade you further.
I have often told my friends that when trying to have a discussion with him it would serve me best to have a team of lawyers present. Because it is impossible to communicate with him. Circular conversation. At his end attacking. Passing blame. Verbaly Abusive. Its all unacceptable behavior coming from ANYONE.
There is a hardening to his heart. And that isn’t the way I would like to describe a son of mine. But I am unable to reach him. And at some point I really have to understand this. Occasionally I still have these moments when I think that I should try, or that I can do this. But it is like stepping into a trap. Every time.
witty – i described myself this way on a blog late last night: caught almost a year ago by a beguiling hare, she is chewing through the leghold. using teeth and words she is slowly extricating herself. soon. soon.
xx one step
Witsend,
I agree with you. My suggestion was truly with the understanding that you were aware you were unable to reach him, but you were looking for ways to deal with him wanting to come back home. My approach was what I did with my Mom to not be a recipient of the absolute worse backlash and crazymaking of hers — I would say things that were calm and even keeled and almost had a tone of making her think I wanted the same things to happen between us as she did (her getting custody, her visiting, me moving to where she was,etc)…but when I surrendered or gave up from that point on I truly never intended to follow through – unless she miraculously did what I asked for (meds/therapy, etc..) prior to my surrendering the loss of my mom in my life — I had her committed, my sister begged her to become normal or try or we had false expectations and kept getting “Burned” by her. It wasnt until I made the choice to no longer try to reach her or get on her level, but rather stay FIRM with mine in a sensitive way to her “style”…. she could never hang up the phone truly screaming at me…because I would always say “I know, thats what I want too, but I remember where we were and what you were like and I dont want to go back to that unless you do this or that…eventually she would just say ok… I have to go now…the conversations never escalated because I would say I have the same wishes as you – but its just not possible with the way you choose to live.
Trying to reach your son really may no longer be an option for you, as you say. And what you must do is protect yourself the easiest and most creative way. When you are aware and accept its like stepping into a trap, everytime, and its no longer attempts on your part to reach him, you begin to separate reaching out from simple self-survival. Do whatever is necessary for your survival Witsend. You no longer will be the boobie in his trap – you will be able to step in and step out or sidestep him completely when you are one-step ahead of him without ever letting him know. When you know what to expect from him…his end attacking…passing blame…verbally abusive…the shock factor dissipates and all that is left is sticking to your boundaries and rules and expectations (ones he will likely never adhere to) but we already know this…the goal now is to let him know you are here for him IF he ever chooses to change but until then you wash your hands of any responsibility or guilt on behalf of his choices/actions…as he is as adult now. And children leave home when they are an adult…so he is free to be the man he wants to be.
Things like that…to get him to give up on his idea of moving back home while at same time making you appear understanding but firm that he isnt allowed back home.
Its not easy to deal with his type of personality – I believe the only way is to twist and turn your meaning right back at him vs. pissing him off in a direct way – helps eliminate the dangerous levels of anger/frustration and or retaliation.
Hugs. xoxo
Dear Learning,
No, I am not in any way offended by your supposition that Witty’s son may not be so much like mine, Mine was not like mine at 17, he was INCREASING in violence though, and by age 18 had gone to prison, by age 20 after a short time out of prison, he went back for murder.
The behavior can escalate very quickly, as they ‘Learn new methods” of obtaining control over their victims.
Witty’s son has never gone past the THREATS of violence except for some PUSHING, but at the same age, my son had not done so either. The fact that Witty’s son did physically push her, then CALL THE COPS on her, (that did back fire though) and that he always maintains his MASK in front of others, only showing her the controlling side of himsxelf, says to me that he KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING. He is using PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE tactics at school, by sleeping in class. Showing up but absolutely REFUSING to cooperate with teachers—he is becoming more and more aware that he can “control situations” to get what HE PERCEIVES AS A WIN. He does NOT perceive that his “win” (maintaining control) is not perceived by others as Beneficial. Like not getting an education is NOT beneficial to anyone that I can think of, yet he BELIEVES he doesn’t “need one” becauxse he is “THE smartest person in the universe.” (Yes, he really believes that!) Between a combination of mania from Bi-polar disorder and the psychopathic thinking, it can quite be a DANGEROUS situation that can BLOW UP like a BOMB without much if any warning, but is most likely to escalate in leaps and bounds.
If it doesn’t escalate, GREAT! But if you are not prepared and it does escalate you may be the one blown to bits. i.e. “better safe than sorry”