By | September 7, 2009 47 Comments

Psychopaths thrive amid confusion, inexperience and denial

Bernie Madoff swindled an estimated $50 billion from investors in his hedge fund, and in March 2009, pleaded guilty to securities fraud. He was sentenced to 150 years in jail. But if the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which is charged with regulating the securities business, had been doing its job, Madoff could have been stopped years earlier.

In a scathing report issued last week, the SEC’s inspector general, H. David Kotz, summarized six substantial complaints that the agency received about Madoff dating back as far as 1992. The SEC conducted two investigations and three examinations into the complaints, and never identified Madoff’s Ponzi scheme.

The good news is that Kotz found no evidence of blatant wrongdoing in the SEC—no one was paid off to whitewash the investigations. The bad news is that the inspector general found plenty of evidence of screw-ups.

Several different teams of examiners looked into the complaints, yet Madoff was able to dazzle, confuse and intimidate them so that they never found out what he was really doing. Then, after the examinations were closed, Madoff gave himself the SEC seal of approval. In his report, Kotz wrote:

Madoff proactively informed potential investors that the SEC had examined his operations. When potential investors expressed hesitation about investing with Madoff, he cited the prior SEC examinations to establish credibility and allay suspicions or investor doubts that may have arisen while due diligence was being conducted. Thus, the fact the SEC had conducted examinations and investigations and did not detect the fraud, lent credibility to Madoff’s operations and had the effect of encouraging additional individuals and entities to invest with him.

Bureaucratic ineptitude

So how did this happen? Essentially, Madoff used the inherent nature of governmental agencies to his advantage.

We probably all have stories of bureaucratic ineptitude. All organizations have issues with politics, turf wars, not-my-job, lack of direction, miscommunication, falling-through-the-cracks, brown nosing, not-pulling-your-weight, etc., etc. In my opinion and experience, these issues are worse in governmental organizations, where connections outrank skill and it’s impossible to get rid of underperformers.

Psychopaths exploit these conditions to the max. They are experts at using upheaval and confusion to their advantage. But in Bernie Madoff’s case, it seems that what he used the most was ignorance.

In his report, Kotz repeatedly says that the people assigned to investigate Madoff were “inexperienced.” How inexperienced were they?

2004 investigation

In an investigation initiated in 2004, touched off by the discovery of an e-mail that provided a step-by-step analysis of why Madoff must have been engaging in fraud, one of the junior examiners was five years out of college, and the SEC was his first job. Another examiner had worked on only four cases before being assigned to the Madoff case.

So it looks like the SEC sent a few 20-somethings to deal with Bernie Madoff. The psychopath distracted them with his stories of the securities business and intimidated them by dropping names of his high-up connections. When they actually persisted in asking for documents, Madoff became angry. “His veins were popping out of his neck,” one of the investigators said.

When the young examiners reported their difficulties to superiors, they got no support. In fact, the “were actively discouraged from forcing the issue,” Kotz wrote.

Why did they receive no backup? My guess is that higher-ranking bureaucrats at the SEC knew Bernie Madoff, either personally or by reputation, and did not want to go up against a man who was former chairman of the NASDAQ stock exchange and a legend in the securities business.

The investigators repeatedly caught Madoff in lies and inconsistencies. But instead of seeking independent verification, they accepted Madoff’s explanations as plausible.

2005 investigation

In 2005, a former investment manager turned whistleblower, Harry Markopolos, submitted his third complaint about Madoff to the SEC. The title: The world’s largest hedge fund is a fraud.

An SEC regional Enforcement department took the case. Here’s how the complaint was handled, according to Kotz:

It was assigned to a team with little to no experience conducting Ponzi scheme investigations. The majority of the investigatory work was conducted by a staff attorney who recently graduated from law school and only joined the SEC 19 months before she was given the Madoff investigation. She had never previously been the lead staff attorney on any investigation, and had been involved in very few investigations overall. The Madoff assignment was also her first real exposure to broker-dealer issues.

The Enforcement staff, which I assume means our young attorney, discounted the Markopolos report and questioned his motives. Furthermore, they (she) believed Madoff did not fit the “profile” of a Ponzi scheme operator because he was a reputable member of society.

The Enforcement staff did not understand options trading. They did not understand Madoff’s purported trading strategy. They were told that they were not sufficiently prepared to take Madoff’s testimony. They went forward with the scheduled testimony anyway.

Here’s a final note about the Enforcement staff investigation that Katz included in his report:

Shortly after the Madoff Enforcement investigation was effectively concluded, the staff attorney on the investigation received the highest performance rating available at the SEC, in part, for her “ability to understand and analyze the complex issues of the Madoff investigation.”

Systemic failures

The report of H. David Kotz, Investigation of failure of the SEC to uncover Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, is fairly readable, even for those of us who don’t understand the securities business. What was released last week was the 22-page executive summary. The full report, which will apparently come out soon, is over 400 pages.

The summary is an eye-opening look at the systemic failures of an important agency that was supposed protect the interests of American investors. It shows, in brutal detail, how many opportunities to bust Madoff were missed, and why. If you don’t want to read the 22 pages, an article in the New York Times, Report details how Madoff’s web ensnared SEC, provides a good summary.


The issue of Madoff not fitting the profile goes, I believe, to the heart of the problem: People cannot conceive of the fact that evil can masquerade as reputable.

Of course, there was a time when many of us lived under the same misconceptions: The trappings of respectability reflect actual respectability. People in positions of responsibility play by the rules. There’s good inside everyone.

It’s only after our own run-ins with psychopaths that we’ve learned differently.

The bottom line is this: Society doesn’t understand that some people are evil, no matter how good they look. Many government agencies, along with other organizations, are structurally incapable of coping with covert evil. This creates an environment of confusion, inexperience and denial that enables psychopaths to flourish.

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Well said Donna! “The trappings of respectability reflect actual respectability” ..hence I think the need for many P’s to surround themselves with a genuinly loving, caring, and morally sound partner…the better to obfuscate their true nature. Many of our LF contributors have spoken of how well liked and respected their P was – which of course reinforces our committment to them and leaves us shattered and confused when the mask comes off.

Ox Drover

Madoff’s scheme, cloaked under BIG MONEY and respectability, and intimidating to the “watch dogs” (puppies, it seems), sent to “keep him honest” is no more a suprise than the fact that “puppies” were sent to “inspect him,” or that when Madoff “growled” at these “puppies,” they got no support from their superiors.

The “power position” conveyed by “big money” and “respectability” based on that position is so typical in our society, and I think has ALWYAS been, and I see no reason to believe won’t always BE, is seen in politics and big business.

Not too many years ago it was a widely known rumor (based on fact and first hand knowledge of many in my state) that a certain large chicken producer had thousands of illegal aliens in their chicken processing plants ini my state. A friend of mine worked for INS and I mentioned to him and asked him why it was allowed to go on when such was so “widely known.”

He informed me that his bosses had told him and his co-workers to never investigate that company—which at that time was heavily backing highly placed US senators and the sitting president.

Several years later, this company was “raided” and thousands of workers fled the plant, and several more thousand were arrested and the company heavily fined.

I have asked myself many times WHY? this happened, and why THEN? Why after 15 or more years of this being an “open secret” in my state would the company suddenly get raided for the same thing they had been doing for years?

As I understand it now, the company is back to hiring hundreds of illegal aliens again.

Our county is now inundated with huge crews of illegal aliens working for large natural gas producing companies. How do I know they are “illegal aliens?”

One, they do not speak English, and they will run like heck from anyone approaching in any kind of “uniform.”—my youngest son works for the Boy Scouts of America which has a large reserve on which there are many sizemograph crews working laying out lines through the woods and at his approach upon them in a “Uniform” which appears “official” they will scatter like quail.

Donna, I agree that many agency personnel do not “get it” about covert evil and law breaking, but I DO BELIEVE that “higher ups” do use and allow illegal activity on the part of “well placed” and “well heeled” psychopaths knowingly.

In the last year or so, LF has highlighted several prominent government officials who one way or another were “unmasked” by their grandiose behavior and flagrant law breaking, such as use of prostitutes while pretending to try to “clean this up” and trying to sell a Senate seat, and bribe taking.

I personally don’t think this is anything “new” in the US, as a reading of history of the early US political formation will show that most if not many of our “Sainted” founding fathers were as “entitled” and “self-serving” as many in office today. A hisotry of the founding of the US railroads and other “big busienss” will also show that this corrupt way of doing business between government and “private” businessmen has, and always will, continue. Busienss as usual, standard operating procedure, and so on.

The “public” can’t stop it, the voters can’t stop it, and I don’t really think it will ever be “controlled” as long as there are evil humans on the face of the earth. That may sound like I am pretty cynical and I guess in some ways I am. However, I do think there is hope for the INDIVIDUAL to learn about psychopath, and as individuals, to protect ourselves from the naivite that gets us personally sucked into a psychopathic vortex on a smaller level, but one which effects us more personally.

I think he would have gotten away with it until his passing if the market hadn’t tanked. The money ran out and he couldn’t get his hands on more cover money. I’ve seen several articles of much smaller con men being outed for their financial service shenanigans. How about that guy who tried to fake his death by jumping out of his plane because his scam was unraveling? The recession has washed away quite a few cloaks of respectability.

What gets my gall is the when it involves MONEY, the perp is a mastermind and OF COURSE regular people wouldn’t have caught on. When what they have stolen is love and sex, the VICTIM is weak and stupid and got what they deserved. It’s the same game- just different prizes.


Nicely put Glinda —-> What gets my gall is the when it involves MONEY, the perp is a mastermind and OF COURSE regular people wouldn’t have caught on. When what they have stolen is love and sex, the VICTIM is weak and stupid and got what they deserved. It’s the same game- just different prizes.

I co-sign that – it is painfully true.


Thank you Donna,
the article was timely for me, since this has been on my mind lately too.
Although Madoff used his “cloak of respectability” to manipulate the SEC workers, it’s possible that he could have gotten away without it. Perhaps he would’ve used the pity ploy. That’s the one they work when respectability doesn’t. Bernie might have told them that he has cancer and shaved his head to show chemotherapy. Then he would tell them that his doctor said stress is what caused it.

My point is that they use HUMAN NATURE to deceive us. The particular trait of deferring to respectability is just one of many traits they can manipulate. They aren’t human themselves so that frees them up to perceive our humanity better than we ourselves can perceive it. We can’t see the forest for the trees, but they can because they have neither forest nor trees.

Like Oxy explained about how she trains each animal species differently depending on their nature, she is familar with and aware of their nature, but the animal isn’t. It just reacts according to its nature, unaware that it could outwit Oxy if it just could change its behavior to something else. The P can change its behavior at will according to what suits the situation.

In Madoffs case, it sounds like he used charm and rage to control whenever the questions got too deep. Only a robot would not have been affected – or someone aware of his nature.

The Ps also have distinguishing personality traits lurking beneath their facade. They must reveal their traits in order to play their game: charm/rage/pity in rapid succession. So they can be spotted if you know what to look for.

The other thing about the Ps, is that they are unable to distinguish genuine emotion from false emotion. To them, it is all about what’s on the surface. So you can pretend any emotion and they will buy it. I’ve tried it with my xP. It works easily. It just feels icky. The problem is if you try it on someone who turns out not to be a P, you are just as bad as a P.

I’m starting to understand that what is required to win against all Ps is that we live in a world where we do not trust anyone until they have proven themselves. Obviously we at LF already live there and we are sad. When the whole world learns to live that way, it will be sadder.



Thanks for this really great article. And to everyone who has posted- for MORE fodder for thought. Amazing how appearances and some pretty rudimentary intimidation/manipulation skills can go so far! I am so glad they got this dirtbag.

The whole ‘public persona’ thing has been in my thinking lately so this article is timely. No matter a big money man, spiritual shaman, carwash manager. Whatever place they choose as their space of operation and supply, they will use words and appearance to create doubt and denial.

And don’t get me wrong by what I am about to say. I am over the moon they catch men like Madoff. HOORAY!

But I am galled, like Glinda, at the lack of recognition of the ordinary pettypath.

Glinda said:

‘What gets my gall is the when it involves MONEY, the perp is a mastermind and OF COURSE regular people wouldn’t have caught on. When what they have stolen is love and sex, the VICTIM is weak and stupid and got what they deserved. It’s the same game- just different prizes.’

It completely stuns me that psychopaths can live seemingly small-potatos-lives and wreak SO much emotional/physical havoc, and not be considered malignant/dangerous. At best we call them assholes, and often lovable rogues. BARF!!!

That the negative consequences created by these pettypaths is often overlooked and the victims accused of not taking responsibility for their own victimization ENRAGES me.

What will it be like in the future. Will there be brain surgery for these people? Will we find a genetic ‘fix’ for them, or will they just kill all of us off?

Sorry, I am pissed off at the world today. At the evil in it.


Terrific article, even though “its nothing new” to know that these powerful people are often psychopaths. I have been legally abused to the max. My ex partner solicitor paid the judge off and had corrupt police jail me and announce me insane when I tried to recover my home and assets and expose him. The solicitor I hired to represent me at the time (unbeknown to me at the time) was his best mate. My ex partner pyschopath is still opetating locally and is now a billionaire. My ex psychopath dentist partner goes to work with his alcoholic hangover and shaking and has recently got away with hundreds of thousands of dollars of insurance fraud.
To me now, its a joke. I am cynical because i have lived through this type of reality repeatedly during my lifetime. “What you see does not exist”, was what my psychopathic parents taught me. What i love about this article most is its title, “Psychopaths thrive amid confusion, inexperience and denial”. This sums it up beautifully. This is exactly what my teacher is trying to create in our art class purely so that she can control and get her narcissitic supply. It is vomit producing content to watch it for four hours three times a week. Especially when you have the knowledge, it is almost unbearable torture to have to sit there and “act” like someone you personally despise to get her to overlook you. And even then, you know will have your turn in the hotseat when her jealousy consumes her.
Off I go to my lovely class today. It should eat her soul to know that I have chosen the subject “psychopaths and criminals” as my theme for my art work. But it doesn’t. Because she denies she is one. She is full of grandure and wears the invisible kings lothes while she struts naked around the room. And every one says “ooh” and “ahhh” what beautiful clothes you have on today oh mighty King. You are the antzpantz and we want to be like you oh naked one!”


yeah, I’m pissed off all the time too. Knowing that the world sucks…Like John Lennon said, “living is easy with eyes closed” and “life is what happens while you’re making other plans.” I get the feeling that he must’ve run into a psychopath, that’s why he dropped out of music for so long.
And in the end, he ran into the worst psychopath of all.

Speaking of dodging bullets, it was 1980, I was a wild teenager and liked to hitchhike everywhere I went, tempting fate, meeting people, scaring the crap out of myself and feeling invincible, just like a narcissist. And like a narcissist, I had a big chip on my shoulder – hey I was 15 and I knew everything.

I always wondered when some guy was going to proposition me, expecting me to be a hooker. One day, a guy in a small green truck picked me up just south of seattle, . Within a few minutes he asked, “How much?” I had been waiting over a year to hear those words, so I could let the perpetrator have it.

I showed him my thumb, “See this thumb? It means I need a ride, that’s all it means.” I gave him a look of utter disdain.

He looked sheepish and said, “I’m sorry, I guess I’m just a horny toad.” He pointed to a large rubber frog on the dash that was mounted by a smaller toad. “See? I’m the big one”
He dropped me off a few miles down the road. For some reason I felt sorry for him and even felt bad for being so rude.

Fast forward about 15-20 years later. My P and I are watching the news. The Green River murderer had been caught long ago and we all knew his name was Gary Ridgeway and we all knew what he looked like. But that newscast showed an old photo of him that evening. It was a photo from the 1980s. It was the guy in the green truck. I told my P. He just looked at me.

Today, I can’t help thinking that he was actually nicer than my P, cuz he let me go. Plus he killed his victims quickly with a hammer, while my P liked to bleed you dry then cast you into such despair that you killed yourself. Just like his ex-girlfriend killed herself by stepping out into traffic.
Ridgeway took his victims’ lives, my P will not settle for less than your soul.


Interesting comment above, Skylar

I had the rare opportunity to read the Prosecutor’s “Indictment” of Gary Ridgway just this past weekend – I didn’t ask how the person GOT the copy, and I didn’t want to know, but it WAS official.

You were one of the lucky ones – he specifically chose ‘victims’ who were desperate for the money – it was the height (back then) of the “crack” explosion in Seattle, and so many women fell into “the life” because they were addicted.

The prosecution laid out each crime upon each woman (if you’ve read Ann Rule’s book “The Green River Killer” or the book written by Dave Reichert, the long-time investigative detective, subsequent Sheriff, and now legislative representative, “Chasing the Devil,” you would see a LOT of what Norm Maleng wrote into the indictment, quotes by Ridgway, and Ridgway’s ‘rationale’ for killing so many women that he considered to be the “Garbage” of society. Ridgway said, roughly, since I don’t have the 80 page document in front of me, that “you guys [cops] can’t do anything about them; you arrest them and they post bail and they’re back out on the streets within an hour. “I DID SOMETHING ABOUT THEM, because you guys couldn’t.”

Oh, he was all stammery and stuttery when he was quoted from tapes, and he is a coward – anyone who put up the least resistance, or backtalked him BEFORE they got into his truck had, at least, a chance to live….BUT so many of his victims were just “kids” – disaffected youth, addicts – his youngest victim, I believe, was 14, playing at being much older of course. There were a slew of young women (girls, really) between the ages of 15 and 18, a lot of 20 year old streetwise prostitutes, who knew how to read people. And THEY were taken in. If they spoke the street-lingo, they didn’t have a chance. They begged and cried for their lives, their families, their children – all to no avail. They were dealing with a “creature” without conscience.

NEVER, EVER, EVER “turn your back on a psychopath” – they would kill you as soon as look at you. It might take time; then again, it might not.

As a prospective double BA in Psych and Criminal Justice, I found the indictment a fascinating read; I kept comparing the information to what I’ve learned here on LF and wanted to share those few insights with e1 here. I could only read it in small doses – say 7 – 10 pages at a sitting, but I got through the whole thing in 2 days.

I am glad he’s locked up forever. There is speculation that there are more GRK victims found, and linked – and those young women’s deaths, since they were not revealed PRIOR to trial, are NOT covered by Ridgway’s plea bargain for his cowardly, chickens**t life; he will probably be indicted for MORE murders, and at that time, he will not be in a position to plea bargain his way out of the death penalty here in WA state.

Personally, I believe that prison officials should turn him loose in the General Population, and let them have their way with his scrawny, cowardly “behind.” “Squeal like a pig!” lol

My condolences to those families of the victims and to anyone who has been a victim of a P or an S – it’s easy when the perpetrators who lie with impunity (Some girls asked him, “Are you the Green River Killer? To which he would reply “no…do I look like a guy like that?” Which was then their undoing. His reasoning, as he explained it to the interviewing Psychiatrist: “Once I had them in my truck, they were MINE…I knew I ‘had them’ and could kill them, take the money I’d paid them, plus any other money they had on them, and ‘just dump ’em somewheres’ .”

They got him for 48 murders – plea bargained him down to find MORE bodies with his help; they’ve found more bodies that link TO him – somewhere upward of 20 more; he has no more playing pieces on the chessboard – CHECKMATE! Game over, you lose – YA LOSER!

So be aware, even hypervigilant, if you must – these poor ladies weren’t, and the ripples in the pond continue to this day, in the aftermath of destruction by this one-man killing machine.



I wish people could connect this to the 2008 Presidential campaign. 0bama is a narcissist who thrived on the lack of investigation into his background. Whenever he needed to distract from unpleasant facts, he played the race card for misdirection.

Just like the Ps in so many people’s lives, he will be defended and his true nature will not be realized until he has done untold damage.


Everyone should read Glinda’s post about money vs. sex.


THE Pentagon of the usa swindeled 3 trillion $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
OOPS we can’t account for this $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ out of the mouth of the top swindler Donold Rumsfield! one day before 9-11 Hummmm?
that is over 8,000 $ per us citcen each Humm? no need to account for this $ we will just print more Hum????


A real wife

even though we can feel hatered toward this person for the evil he is! He is still a person, like you and me! to pass judgement is not our roll , to keep this person from ever harming another soul is our purpose.

I to would have him hog tied and presented for enjoyment of every prision inmate in the world to abuse!

but does it serve the greater good? no

tie him to the ground and let the fireants eat him alive!

This only serves a few fireants!

Put him in isolation for life and study every waking /sleeping momment of his life now until death!

but even this is torture!


A realwife,
I’m so glad that you are pursuing that double major. I would like to do a similar double, with psych and criminal profiling.

My major interest would be to profile people who want to be cops. In my experience they really have issues. My P knows this and that is his main source of supply for all of his evil plans. A cop should be a person who is above being conned, but instead many, like my BIL are the most evil sociopaths of all. Also, we should implement profiling of all current cops and kick out the ones that fall into the mid to high range of the P continuum.

As far as the Ridgeway, well he didn’t kill me because I didn’t take the money and his illusions of granduer included the delusion that he was “cleaning up the prostitute problem”.

My P just hates all women because he hates his mom so he would just like to kill us all.

Until society can see that there is no such thing as misogyny and there is no such thing as racism, there is only the psychopathology of hatred. Hating certain groups in order to have an excuse to hate someone is a sociopath’s way of spreading his hate. Without this group how could he convince himself and others of his delusional logic? “I only hate prostitutes” “Women are all ****!”

Now, with a scapegoat, the delusional P can avoid the truth, which is the fact that HE is not normal and his pathological envy is against the whole human race and God himself.

Of course a woman hater would not admit to wanting to kill all women, but instead approve of treating them like crap and calling them names. That is what my P did for the last few years. Before that, he professed a deep respect for woman and a hatred of the Taliban and other woman haters.

It makes me sad that I cannot take peoples’ word and believe that they are who and what they say they are anymore.


I just watched an interview by Meredith Viera with Rod Blagojevich this AM and watched a master narcissiopathic manipulator at work on a national morning news program. I bet he is so pleased with himself.

She asked him direct questions about people he claims supported his actions, Rahm Emmanuel, Obama and others and he redirected the subject away from answering that and onto his innocence – it was an amazing display and I wonder why she did not ask him to answer the question – Earlier she asked why in the taped conversations that have been released he appears to be trying to sell the Senate seat Obama was going to vacate and he did a Garrido and said – “when you hear the full tape in its context” blah blah blah –

I’ll bet in a few months when he is on trial the tapes will NOT exonerate him – but he has tried to leave that impression – just like the sicko Garrido with his twist on how the story Jaycee will tell will be uplifting and wonderful and… make me vomit.

Blago is as disgusting as Garrido just slicker and the book publisher ought to be deluged with mail for rewarding this scum with a mouthpiece and money. It is all just gross.

Okay – enough of a rant today – and it is only 9:45Am here…


Blago’s avoidance of the question is a classic ploy. Another classic that I’ll bet he uses is “the best defense is a good offense.” I expect to hear a lot from him about how everything was someone else’s fault and how all sorts of people did things that were worse than he did. As if that makes his crimes acceptable.


Skylar and All,

Sky-Boy-o! Your teenage escape story blew my hair back. I could put myself in your place (cause I was a misbehavin’ girl, too). GeezLoueez.

As for bein’ mad. Well, after two years NC, from one of many crapbags I have found myself vexed with, I am FINALLY starting to get really angry. I am not used to being angry so this is a weird place to be. And not expected. I just figured I musta skipped that phase of the loss process.

Waking up from the Cult of Nice, that’s what I am doing.

And I feel embarrassed for being mad at two years out. Can’t really say why NOW I am mad. Maybe it’s the full realization of what being alive is really about. Facing the truth, opening my eyes, and living from authenticity. But I am so so so pissed off. I think I liked my illusions, and what they allowed me to ignore. I feel like I am detoxing from the fantasies I have been gorging on, and fighting the process.

Part of me STILL does not want all of what each and every one of us knows to be true, I don’t yet know how to find my happiness in the real world as I find it so terrifying and unstable. THIS MAKES ME MAD!!!!!

I kinda feel like I am have an existential temper tantrum. I don’t much care for it, but I had better learn to do something with it, that is constructive.

I feel like a 50 foot woman, with PTSD! Whoa.

Hecates path

Glinda – Your comment above was a real gem… not only is the sentiment right on the money, but the way you stated really gave me pause for thought. My first thought was to post and call the attention of others to your insightful comment – obviously given the additional comments by others I was not alone in my appreciation of your thoughts. I always love how donna or one of the other blog posters calls our attention to something which then opens the way for other truths and enlightened statements to be brought forth!
Thanks for sharing!
Hecate’s Path


Glinda I agree with Hecate’s Path..I do cring when I read how some victims were conned out of huge amounts of money or someones life saving’s. That would add huge amounts of anger and pain, however everybodys heart breaks the same way when it come’s to being ‘conned’ into believing someone loved us.


Today has been a real downer for me. No particular reason, my friend even took me to lunch, I should be happy. But I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach again, just like I used to before I left the P.

I think that it may be connected to some thoughts about my P and the Green River murderer.

When I first realized that I had encountered such an evil predator and escaped, I didn’t know what to think. How does one feel about that? How? Grateful? yes, but also like being the lone survivor on an airplane crash. But my P was with me when I saw the news and I felt so safe by that time, it had happened so long before. It seemed like a distant kiss from God reminding me that He loved me and that I was now safe.

BUT I WASN’T. And it would take another 15 years to find out that I wasn’t and more than that, this encounter was long and drawn out, like the kidnapped girl’s experience. Not short-lived like the first time.

It just seems like – why the F**K does everyone want to KILL ME!? WHY was I chosen to be the fricken sacrificial lamb?

I feel really scared all the time, like I can’t trust my own judgement to keep me safe, not just from having my heart broken and my money taken but even for my life.

I mean what are the chances of getting away from the GR murderer and ending up with someone WORSE? Even the GR didn’t want to kill his own wife. My P wanted to torture and kill me. I’m really feeling the PTSD today. Can’t even think my way out of it…



I think the important think to remember, is that you ARE ALIVE! For whatever reason, you have escaped death and that can only mean God has a special PURPOSE for you! You may not even see it directly but your life either has, is, or will affect someone else in a positive way that they wouldn’t have been affected had you not been here.

I know you affect mine in a good way…and I thank-you for that


thanks, hummingbird, for reminding me and for being so kind.


Skylar, your words struck me because ever since I heard of Garrido and Jacee. I have experienced the uncomfortable knot in the stomach similar to the one I felt throughout my whole “marriage,” for the first time since leaving over 7 years ago! I, too, feel like the lone survivor of a plane crash. My counselor said it is “survivor’s guilt” and I’m sure Jacee will experience it, too. We feel alone but we are not!

Hummingbird’s reminder that we are ALIVE and we did escape an untimely death was so timely for me. I hope it was for you, too.

It’s the unwelcome memories, isn’t it, that are getting to us? But, we are now SAFE and those memories were THEN, and this is NOW. (And the stomach knot is still there. Yuck!)


thanks NewLily,
Part of it too, is the cops are on his side and they still have not contacted me to explain why they are on his side.

Kind of like I was explaining to Mandy, that most of the drama in people’s lives is accompanied by scripts that we follow, it makes us feel better. Birth, Death, Marriage, Divorce, Traumatic accident, being raped, robbed or the victim of any crime at all.
There is an agency that handles things for you and people gather around you for support. There are hospitals, funeral homes, churches, lawyers, and of course the police and court systems. I have NONE OF THOSE. It’s like a nightmare. The cops are against me and the one lawyer I talked to said it sounded like my P was a spy! What a friken idiot. Of course he sounds like a spy, HE’S DELUSIONAL.
I feel like the only script I have is from a stephen king novel.

kim frederick

Morning Slimone, NL and Skylar, and everybody else. It’s absolutely normal to be angry: to feel like you’re waking up from the, “cult of nice.” It’s just knowing what to do with all that anger… Anger is a physical sensation as well, physical execise can help use up the adreniline, as well as release endorphines. Endorphines are the body’s natural pain reliever, and mood elavator. This might sound stooooopid, but I’ve taken up basking bread, using a sourdough starter. The process of kneading the bread, and the tactile sensation, as well as the patience required, all seems very therapeutic to me.

I’s funny how memories from the past can rear up out of nowhere, and really put us into a blue funk.

I’ve been finding myself thinking about my first marriage, that I left twenty years ago. I thought all those old issues were resolved, long ago. I don’t think my husband was a P, but had some N tendancys. At any rate, it was an unhappy marriage, and nearly broke my heart, and now, instead of thinking about ther most recent XP, I’m thinking about my XH, who might be an N. I guess its because I’ve ruminateed over the P for soooo long, and I know what He is…But I don’t think I’ve ever looked at the XH, in light of what we talk about here. Skylar and NL, I hope you both feel better today. Try baking bread. It’s so self-nurturing as well, so basic to life, and sooo good. God Bless.


Now I’m having thoughts of contacting him again. I dreamt of him again last night.
So, this morning, I read more about stockholm syndrome from:
Thanks Easy, for posting a related link.
Missing him is stockholm syndrome and it helps a bit to read about it again, it explains my emotions but I keep thinking that maybe contacting him will lead to some way out of all these thoughts. Maybe get me some closure. Maybe connect me with feeling alive again – or being dead.
These are terrible feelings. Maybe I’m drinking too much coffee, maybe I need acupuncture.
Thank LF people. I’d be so much more lost if I didn’t at least get to open up to you guys.


skylar – there is no such thing a closure with a sociopath – contacting him will just prolong the opinion anyhow. If my sons every saw the evil one here again they would prolly have me committed, and I they should…I still think of him all the time but it is the lie’s he told that I miss – I wanted to believe – please dont contact him


yes, henry, I know, I need a life.
thanks for the words.

BTW, looks like they finally caught another sociopath. All the elements are here. This one even told people that he was a spy.

kim frederick

Skylar, Henry’s right, and you already no it. The only response is NO RESPONSE. It’s the only one they get! Any contact with them is walking into the FOG. Just keeping the confusion going. We have to accept that the only closure, is no closure. After a while, that in itself becomes enough. I’m sorry you are feeling awful. As hard as it might be try to make a gratitude list. Like:
!. I”m grateful to be alive.
2. I’m grateful I didn’t kill him and end up in prison for the rest of my life.
3. I’m grateful I have the ability to heal, and can love again. He can’t.

Anyway you get the picture. As Oxy would say, ((((Hugs))))


Skylar……I was so impressed with your thumb comment…and at such a young age. It is like Steve (blogger Steve) tell us. If we have firm boundaries (and that was a strong statement) and are clear about them, it can save us from a psychopath.

Wow! You ARE a strong woman! Even were at 15!


thanks, I had thought about what I would say and had the words prepared for a long time. In essence those words meant: “you are stupid because you assumed that a thumb means prostitution.” So it was a put down.
BUT I also remember that when the first words left my mouth and my thumb went up, I had a fleeting thought, “Oh shit, if this guy IS a freak, the first thing he’ll do is cut my thumbs off!” But it was too late to stop, so I finished my sentence.

I used to get more amusement from remembering this event and how I escaped death. Now it doesn’t seem as funny.


Henry Is right!

if a person cannot take the Brilliant RED flag! Like 9-11 sept 2001 and see the blantant deception! than It is as if they have not had enough pain yet! no explaining, no reason , nothing is going to move the Addict until they wake up from their own illisusion and fantasy!


Well my daughter has succeeded in motivating her murderous psychopath father into killing me. He has started the death threats and they are very real. I am terrified. I am so sick of all of this. When will it stop??? I know the police cannot protect me against him and I don’t have a gun or know how to use one. I am sitting duck. The last woman he killed he forced her to write a note that she was going away. He said the words and she wrote them. Then he killed her. He told me. And in the paper she was “MISSING”” the next day. Then the letter turned up. He killed her on Christmas day. Then the police decided she should not be listed as missing even though she was a CROWN WITNESS IN A MURDER TRIAL.
I am sick to death of all of thisl. I don’t know where to turn because there IS NOWHERE.


He was never arrested for killing her ( or the others) and never on the suspect list. He knows I know everything and have that I have said I will give him up to the police even though it is a lifetime after the fact.The trouble is, the police don’t care. Nobody cares. This girl is too much trouble for the corrupt police and lawyers.

super chic

TILLY!!!! What is going on over there? Please post something, where are you? Do ANYTHING to keep away from him. What did your daughter do????? I want to ask you a zillion questions, but the main one is… how can I help? I want to make a zillion suggestions… I’m sure you’ve already thought of them. SOMEONE has to make this stop!!! Don’t be a sitting duck, can anyone there HELP YOU???


Don’t worry shabbychic, its ok. Its a long story and I’m tired of telling it. There is nothing anyone can do. I have been to the police over and over again. There is nowhere to go. And you know what? I don’t care anymore. Acceptance is the key. I give up. Well and truly. I am moving over for someone else’s turn.


And I lost my youngest son too somewhere along the line. So its just not worth the effort . Really its all just a waste of time and effort.


I can’t even begin to imagine the fear you are experiencing because of the history of this man. The only part I can really relate to is how ALONE you must feel.
Being AND feeling alone makes you not only feel more vulnerable in the situation you are in but ACTUALLY makes you more vulnerable.

If you can’t change anything else right now, that is what you must focus on.
I know that there is a time difference from the states and where you live…Is it night, now? (its morning here)
If you can’t count on the police to help you then you have to at least go somewhere other than where he knows to “find” you.
Maybe spend the night at a friends house or a motel? It would be so much better to go by a friends house of that is possible just because then you wouldn’t be alone. Do you have a friend that you can trust?
Being alone just puts more pressure on the fear that you already have and won’t let you think straight to come up with a plan.
If this doesn’t seem possible to spend the night at a friends and you don’t have the extra cash for a motel…..Maybe spend the night at a place that is very “public” and open 24 hours a day…..An airport perhaps, a bus station? I know that sounds so impersonal but you see people sleeping at the airport all the time waiting for flights…And you wouldn’t be alone??
I am sorry some of these ideas might sound so stupid but I live in a very small town and we have NOTHING here open 24 hours a day.

Maybe you have other options where you live of a very public place open all night?

Please keep yourself safe and don’t give up. Even if you feel that you can’t possibly look at the “big picture” right now and come up with a plan that makes sense for the next several weeks.
Try focusing more on the RIGHT NOW and what can you do to be safe for the next several hours, rather than the whole week? Take it ONE DAY at a time.


Tilly ,what about a womans refuge? I dont know where you live, but if you ring Samaritans, or Helpline, they wiil give you a lead on where to go.Or just go to the nearest Police station and tell them everything, say you want Police protection. They cant refuse it, surely. Do you have a good friend you can go to?Look up the White Pages directory, they have details of emergency services in the front. Please try everything ! Love, gemXx

Ox Drover


Sugar, DO NOT GIVE UP! I do not want to have to BOINK you, sweetie! You’ve had enough trouble.

You know I have been in the same place as you (the Ps threatening my life—ones that have killed before) so you can TAKE ACTION and it IS WORTH IT.

you are a smart woman OR YOU WOULD NOT BE IN THE TOP 15% AT UNIVERSITY! So, we got that settled.

What would a SMART and STRONG woman do? Look at your options.

I don’t know what options you have, but you DO have options, and you need to TAKE ACTION. We cannot save you from a distance, we can only be here for support and caring. YOU must take the options available.

If there are women’s shelters—then go there.

If you have a friend you can go stay with—do that.

If you have no friends and the shelters are not there—do something else.

Move house—no forwarding address.

Live in your car in someone’s yard, or a safe parking lot.

Rent a cheap motel room by the week—-do something!

I don’t know what your options are, but you HAVE OPTIONS and IT IS WORTH IT.

I don’t want to hear you despairing again, or I will BOINK you a good one—probably two licks up side the head! You have come so far, Tilly, you can do it, now you get your chit together OR ELSE!!! ((((HUGS)))) AND MY PRAYERS. God helps those who help themselves! Now get to helping yourself!!! an dPRAY!!!


Tilly dont you dare give up.

I think it is pretty much relative, the extent of the abuse we have all suffered at the hands of sociopaths or narcs, but the effect is the leveller:( I totally understand how exhausted you are and how giving up and dying(literally) seems a seductive and easy option(???)… when you feel like you’ve lived your life perpetually clinging to a cliff by your finger nails as a succession of bottom feeders line up to stamp on them…

yeah maybe it IS time to let go. Let go of THEM. Not you.

Tilly we all know the strength you are capable of displaying,but this is not about a fight now, this that buddist ‘strong like water’ thing. You seem to be in a position that is ‘hopeless’, but its not, because you still have TILLY.

Oxy has given you a list of suggestions, all of which ARE doable. and you CAN do something.
Much, much love.xxxx



I am sorry I couldn’t get to your post from Tuesday, and respond. Internet issues all week. But of course all the lovely people here at LF rushed in to love you.

I am just off to work, and don’t have much time this morning to think and respond with enough thought.

Just know I am for you. I am for everyone here. For our healing, our mutual love and support.

Much love to you, and all…..slim


Thank you Slimone. LF is so wonderful, where else can we vent like this?


Tilly, How are you sweetie? I havent heard from you, and Im worried. Please let me know your OK! All my Love, dear, Gem.XX


Did anyone catch the premier of ‘Oprah’ this afternoon?
Whitney Houston actually came right out and stated that Bobby Brown was her addiction, not the drugs.

She also made other key points about what it is like in an abusive relationship, by telling her story.

Thank you Whitney!!

Tony Ryals

I have been screaming at H.David Kotz for a long time now about his
siding with anonymous fraudsters on claiming everything from
worthless penny stocks,(that the fraudulent ’naked short selling’
claim of James Dale Davidson’s NAANSS or National Association Against
Naked Short Selling first started with in 2002 and since 2005 REPLACED
BY Patrick Byrne’s,’s NCANS),to Novastar Financial and Northern
Rock and finally Freddie Mac and Fannie acording to ex SEC Chair Chris
’Naked Shorts’ Cox and his and David Kotz’s SEC were brought down by
’naked short selling’!My first article-posts re Kotz and Christopher
Cox’s ’naked shorting’ lies and cover ups are hard to find now for
some reason but are still on internet.
Ij ust wanted you to know he claims Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were
’naked shorted’ or ’counterfeit’ to cover that massive fraud up as
well.Will someone investigate, PLEASE !?

Senator Carl Levin’s,Arlen Specter’s ’Naked Short Fannie Mae Theory’
vs JFK ’Magic Bullet’ Assassination Theory

SEC Inspector General H.David Kotz who these Senators treat with kid
gloves as though he were a child prodigy for playing along with their
and ex SEC Chair Chris Cox lie about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac being
’naked shorted’ when it is precisely those stocks that prove the claim
of James Dale Davidson,Patrick Byrne,Senators Bob Bennett, Carl
Levin,Arlen Specter, is a lie ”“ if shares issued by Fannie Mae
and Freddie Mac were ’naked shorted’ meaning they were counterfeited
according to the Senators and James Dale Davidson and
Byrne,,then many shareholders would have complained of not
receiving their dividends over the years.This never occured so the
only question is are these Senators purposely aiding stock criminals
or just mistaken and themselves manipulated to aid a mafia like stock
fraud that thanks nothing of threatening the lives of those who
criticise them whether they be journalisats are victims of their fraud
such as myself.

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