By | January 22, 2013 103 Comments

Researchers say pedophilia may have biological roots

According to researchers, not all pedophiles molest children. And not all child molesters are pedophiles. Now, many experts view pedophilia as a deep-rooted disposition, much like heterosexuality or homosexuality.

Many researchers taking a different view of pedophilia, on

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Ox Drover

Interesting article, Donna. OOne quote stuck out for me,

Among the most compelling findings is that 30% of pedophiles are left-handed or ambidextrous, triple the general rate. Because hand dominance is established through some combination of genetics and the environment of the womb, scientists see that association as a powerful indicator that something is different about pedophiles at birth.

Interestingly enough, more psychopaths than would be expected to be are LEFT HANDED.

I have felt since learning about psychopaths that all or almost all pedophiles who abuse children ARE ALSO psychopaths…the manipulation that they do among other things makes me think this. Would love to see some studies on this aspect.


Yet so many left handed people are NOT psychopaths that the trait is moot in generalizing or predicting the disorder.

Not all psychopaths are pedophiles but ALL PEDOPHILES are psychopaths. yep yep yep. Which logically means it is NOT similar to hetero or homo sexuality. It’s rooted to psychopathy, pedophilia is the method. Just like rapists are not about sex, it’s just the method. ps LOVE the assertion that only men are pedophiles. This was a Poorly written article.


What a wonderful article, Donna – now it’s the EXCUSE that pedophiles have been WAITING FOR!

Godalmighty, WHO are these people that come up with this tripe, anyway? I do not give one fart in a windstorm whether it’s “genetic” or “learned” because it is still – above all things – the most vile and despicable of predatory behaviors.

OxD & KatyDid, some people simply write articles to see their own irrational thoughts in print. And, I agree that ALL pedophiles are PSYCHOPATHS. So, if there’s a genetic marker for this, then there’s a very simple solution…..

Brightest blessings


What next will we be hearing about pedofile/child molester rights? If it is genetic maybe we could find the marker and exterminate them. Let’s not get into sympathy for the poor child molester; it is totally different than adult gay relationships. And gay or straight, pedofilia is a danger to our children and our future. Some crimes just deserve no leniency and molesting children should be number one on the list, followed by murder (excluding justifyable homicied), rape and amimal abuse.

We have no place in society for these untreatable vermin whether they are psychopaths or not. Articles like this just mess up peoples minds about the reality of the situation. I give this guy an F for complete failue to make any sense.

raggedy ann

I have to stridently disagree with much that is being said in the above comments, although I agree that the articlee is flawed. It’s inconceivable to me that science and neuropsychology will not eventually reveal that paedophilia in some of the afflicted is indeed a manifestation of something physiological in the brain.
As in the first case profiled in the article, it’s an absolutely tragic affliction to live with. Act on it, and you are causing harm to other human beings and risk ruining your own as well and coming to violent harm. Control yourself, and you are living in deprivation or distraction and constant inappropriate romantic feelings or physical yearning for others — a state you will have to medicate, or self-medicate, not always fully successfully.
We can’t currently know how many people are living with some degree of this because it appears that some of the afflicted do not act on their impulses.
My guess is that psychopathy appears to correlate with this disorder because it most often that the people who end up acting on their urges (and thus also likely caught) skew to the right on the spectrum of psychopathy. It’s possible that the overrepresentation of psychopathy among identified paedophiles accounts for the left-handedness — not sure.
The doctor quoted is correct in saying that this disorder has been driven underground. What’s being done in Germany is what I have long believed should be done here. It will be interesting to see the results over time. I hope that recognizing whatever brain differences can lead to paedophilia will result in better methods in working with these people themselves in avoiding doing harm. People who have markers or even incidents(?) but who are not highly psychopathic would obviously be the best candidates for results, depending on the soundness of the methods themselves.


“Among the most compelling findings is that 30% of pedophiles are left-handed or ambidextrous, triple the general rate.”


This resonated strongly with me as well. And I agree that those who are active Pedophiles should be viewed as having being a Psychopath as well.

I have a psychologist friend; her practice is chiefly among those who are Ephebophiles — those attracted to adolescents. Her observation, supported by the article below, is that Ephebophelia is far more common than generally recognized.

Ox Drover

Great Article, BBE, but I think that “splitting hairs” on the ages that these “pedophiles” are attracted to is going way tooooooo faaaaaar.

I think there are pedophiles who are ATTRACTED to underaged children but are NOT MOLESTERS, they restrain themselves, JUST LIKE I THINK THERE ARE GAY/LESBIANS who are NOT ACTIVE because they restrain themselves. I think there are heterosexuals who have DESIRES for sex but RESTRAIN themselves for a number of reasons. (I would currently classify myself in that last category as I am heterosexual and as any normal person I have sexual desires, but due to my life situation right now, I restrain those desires and am not sexually active with the partners who would be available to me.)

ACTIVE pedophiles who MOLEST CHILDREN are, I think, PSYCHOPATHS because they do NOT RESTRAIN their impulses, but ACT on them.

Whether the desire for sex with children (of any age) is inborn, or environmentally acquired doesn’t really mean a fig to me, it is whether the person ACTS on that desire.

We all have from time to time “desires”—but we have a moral compass that keeps us from shoplifting that ring we can’t afford, or from having sex with our neighbor’s son or daughter, or writing a check we know will bounce…..psychopaths do not with hold any desire from themselves. So, I say by that evidence that ALL active child molesters are also psychopaths….but NOT all people who have a DESIRE for sex with children but RESTRAIN themselves.

There is so much to say that the comment section hardly seems appropriate. So I will just make one note:

In his late teens, Christiano taught gymnastics and supervised hundreds of young girls. He fasted at work to distract himself from his erotic feelings.

“My hand never slipped,” he said. “There were students I loved and adored. In a perfect world, I could sweep them off their feet and live happily ever after.”

Happily ever after??? How long is that? Until they mature out of puberty? This goes to show that he is not completely rational in his thinking, he is in denial. It also goes to show that his perception of “love” is as immature as the objects of his love. I wouldn’t even call it lust, it’s more of a fetish or fixation with a symbol.



Great post. We all have desires…it’s about SELF CONTROL and not too many people have it and yes, active pedophiles are psychopaths…period, end of story. The others who have the desires, but control them, are not psychopaths.

raggedy ann

Skylar, lots of people who wouldn’t look at a 40 year old marry attractive 21 year olds for “happily ever after.” There is actually much that is irrational about most relationships, and most kinds, and a certain amount of self-deception and denial. Physical attraction is not a matter of rational decision, ever. The main difference here is the shelf-life of the attraction, compared to the guy who marries the 21 year old. I also didn’t interpret that quote as implying that he believed that this happily ever after was attainable even if permitted by law. It’s unclear what “a perfect world” means in his case. I could say that in a perfect world trusting decent people would not develop bonds with psychopaths, or psychop[aths could be redeemed by the love of a decent person. He may have been describing what romantic fantasies were attached to his fixation on the specific children he adored.

Louise and Ox Drover, I agree with what you have said, except that we have no choice but to split hairs. Determining legal age of consent itself is a matter of splitting hairs, and includes many factors. Our 50 states in the US have not been able to agree where the thin line belongs, and the determination differs by country as well.

Raggedy Ann,
I would say the same about a 40 year old who marries a 21 year old: his idea of “love” is shallow. A 21-year old hasn’t had enough life experience to bring anything but physical beauty to a union with a 40-year old.

If 2 people of the same young age marry, that is different, they could be attracted in the same way to each other. When people of very different ages marry, there is an agenda and dysfunction, IMO.

But anyway, the pedophiles that I’ve known or heard of, who married their victims, it ends as soon as the victim becomes mature because the ped isn’t interested anymore.

I met my spath at age 17 and by age 18, he was already screwing 12 year olds behind my back. We did stay together for 25 years, but he really had no interest in sex with me and I can assure you that I was physically very well proportioned, I was a size 3 most of my life. (until recently, now I’m fat.)

Ox Drover

Raggedy Ann, yes, I agree that setting ANY “age of consent” is subjective….I knew a lady when I was a kid who had married at age 12, my grandmother and egg donor both married at 16. It was fairly common for brides to be 14-16 in my area in the 20s, 30s, 40s and even up into te 1950s

Today it is not uncommon for 14-16 year old girls to have babies mostly out of wedlock, so I am assuming they are sexually active at younger ages than that. Most times with boys about their own ages, but not always. The hormones kick in and the girls and boys have the NORMAL URGES but not the impulse control to refrain. Doesn’t mean they are bad kids, just tempted and impulsive. Grown men and women have these same urges but should have the mental maturity to refrain from the risky and illegal behavior.

The speed limit is subjectively set on highways and city streets. I drive under the speed limit though I COULD probably drive safely over that speed limit, but I want to OBEY the law and NOT get a ticket, so I restrain myself. A 30 year old man may be very attracted to a 17 year old girl, but if he is SMART and WISE and adult, he will not go near her until she turns 18.

I have a son age 36 who is single and we will see some cute little teeny bopper at the mall in skimpy clothing and I know he LOOKS, but there is nooooooo way he would ever touch a girl that age, not because she isn’t cute or attractive or sexy, just 1) he realizes there is a reason that young girl is “off limits” and 2) he isn’t going to put himself at risk for breaking the law. In other words, he controls his impulses and his hormones.

Plus, since he works for Boy Scouts of America he has had a lot of training on “youth safety” and is very circumspect about even being alone with a “youth(s)” of any age or either sex under any circumstances EVER. When he is with any “youth” there is ALWAYS another adult present 100% of the time.

When my son C married the P DIL, she had a 16 yr old daughter living at home that was in my professional estimation a Border Line Personality Disorder (high level) and she had had a year and a half long sexual relationship with the DIL’s last husband and had testified against him and put him in prison. Now I am NOT entirely blaming this girl but she also knew she had POWER OVER this man, and he was a willing participant apparently, and he should have gone to prison…but at the same time I was scared to death that she would accuse my son C of trying to molest her as a power play if he got into a quarrel with her, and though I had 100% confidence in him, I had ZERO confidence in her.

I had a friend whose 12 year old daughter that he had custody of had become sexually active. He was trying to be a good parent and stop this behavior. She looked him in the eye and said “if you don’t let me do what I want to I will tell the cops you tried to rape me and you will go to jail.” He ended up turning the girl over to the state because He knew she was right and he could not control her.

My DIL’s kid never accused my son of anything, and eventually, she left home before the “summer of chaos” and hooked up with a guy cooking meth and after the house they were living in burned I haven’t heard from her.

Some of the “youngsters” are “asking for it” but it is because they don’t have the mental maturity to realize the consequences of their behavior. The same reason we put a lower age limit on selling booze and cigarettes, because kids don’t have the maturity to make decisions about what is good for them. So it is UP TO THE ADULT to set the limits and say “NO, Susie, that iis not appropriate behavior” And if the adult doesn’t do that then in my opinion, they are the ones who should go to jail. However, there are some kids who are NOT “asking for it” and are GROOMED by perverts that sexual behavior is good or right.

So I think there are various levels of this bothh from the standpoint of the kids and of the pedophiles.

Tea Light

Sky, very saddened to read your ex engaged in paedophiliac behaviour.
I’m in agreement with the general consensus. Children are not capable of consenting to sexual activity. Any curiousity about sexual and gender difference is simply an innocent part of children’s development, unless a child has been sexualised and is acting out trauma. Ergo any sexual acts imposed on them are heinous violations of a child’s human rights. I’m sick of moral relativism. Those with paedophile tendencies have a moral duty to ‘suffer’ and abstain , or they should suffer the severest of legal consequences. They cause appalling cycles of often intergenerational anguish and misery.

raggedy ann

Oxy, I don’t disgree with anything you’ve said.

Skylar, there are so many men who “fall out of attraction” to their middle aged wives and continue noticing younger women, including teenagers. They may not have envisioned this in youth, although it would be the most rational to understand and expect that this was a significant risk, given that they currently did not find 40 and 50 and 60 years old attractive. I see a smaller difference than you do in this. I’m not sure how much it matters what dysfunction might unite the pair. The shelf-life problem can still be there.

Raggedy Ann,
I’m not going to disagree with you because you have made another one of my points: there are disordered people everywhere.

Just because it’s common and it pertains to a large percentage of people, doesn’t mean it is healthy or normal.

I know plenty of people who will fall in love, all the while acknowledging that if someone better (younger, cuter, wealthier) came around they would dump the current “love”. They still consider it love. It blows my mind.

Ox Drover

There is proof that males are “attracted” (normally) to a young woman with larger breasts, with an hour-glass shaped figure, and with some meat on her bones not skinny. This all corresponds to a woman who is more likely to raise a healthy child and is a biologically “programed” attraction. Men or women who are attracted to young children have some sort of “problem.”

Women are also (normally) attracted to nice looking, tall, strong, men for the same biological reasons, he is likely to be able to provide for her and her children.

Marriage for “romantic” reasons in western culture is much different than in many parts of the world where ARRANGED MARRIAGES are the norm and the option to pick your own partner can result in you being killed by your own family in an “honor” killing. It is also fairly common in those cultures for a very young girl to be married to a very old man….essentially SOLD by her family. There was one on the news here lately where a 15 yr old was sold to a 90 year old man but on her wedding night she refused him and he wanted his money back and the family had already spent it. That girl had GUTS I hope she doesn’t pay for it with er life or her ears and nose being cut off like that poor Afgan girl whose Father in law and husband cut off her ears and nose and left her to die when she tried to escape and her own family wouldn’t take her back. Her photo was on Time Magazine cover. She is here in US being treated medically.

kim frederick

I don’t think the fact that youth is physically attractive is gender specific. I find younger men far more attractive than those in their 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s, too. So? what’s your point? Wise people don’t invest in relationships based solely on physical attributes….and healthy people bond in healthy ways, they love and care about their partners, so they are willing to work around the attraction issues….unless they’re somatic narcissists always in search of supply, or psychopaths looking for a conquest.


The point with regard to DISORDERED behaviors is that, whether they are hard-wired or learned behaviors, the perpetrator is cognizant that what they are entertaining is morally, legally, and ethically WRONG. Otherwise, why would they go to such great lengths to develop such an illusion of respectability? Disordered people CHOOSE to harm and subvert – they know precisely that what they are doing is damaging.

I may have many, many issues that are a result of my family dysfunction, but this fact cannot be an excuse to deliberately harm another human being for my own gain or personal entertainment.

So, as far as I’m concerned, attempting to attach a genetic predisposition to damaging other human beings is FOOLISH.

Brightest blessings


Here’s something to think about. The pedophile who kidnapped Jaycee Lee Dugard no longer wanted to have sex with her once she had her first child…he stopped molesting her. She was no longer an innocent child to him; she was now a mother and so he was no longer attracted to her.

exactly. This is not idle speculation, it’s a well known fact that once the victim grows up he/she is discarded. Sandusky did the same. Yet, like Michael Jackson, they claim to LOVE the children or the princess or the prince or whatever pet name they give them.

My exspath told me that his first sexual encounter was when he was 10 and it was with a 12 year old Native American girl. If this is true and I suspect that it is (and it was a tell), it makes sense that he was having sex with two 12-year old Native American girls when he was 29 AND bragging about it to his friends. I think his mind was stuck trying to relive the same experiences over and over.

That’s what I’ve noticed about several spaths, they seem stuck in the past, reliving it over and over and always with the same outcomes.

kim frederick

Truthspeak, right. I totally agree. I was addressing my post to raggedy….the shelf-life of an attraction thing….wow.



Yes, this is why they always need to look for new victims…the current ones get older, more mature, pregnant…whatever, and then they are no longer attracted to them so they need to find the next prepubescent.

Yours started very young and it does sound like he was trying to recreate that initial excitement.

I agree about them trying to relive over and over their experiences and never learning from them.

kim frederick

PTSD survivors relive the trauma over and over again, too.

That’s true Kim. I sometimes think that the cluster b’s are a symptom of PTSD. The difference between us and them being that, WE are trying to escape the vicious cycle, while they choose to stay in it.

My exspath told me, “I never wanted to grow up. People change, but I’m still the same.”

Another strange example of this reliving the same thing over and over was a woman on my neighborhood water association board.

I nick named her “Malice” because the name fit.

She was the secretary for the board for 12 years. Longer than anyone else had been. Most people would join the 5 member board for a year or two. I joined in 2006 or 7.

I watched the first year and said very little. She pulled out some binders and said that we were required by the state to finish adopting certain rules and plans. So we began the process. The second year we were moving along, some members quit and a couple more joined the board. Malice suggested I become secretary and she would be treasurer. I just had to type up the meeting minutes, she said.

Well, as secretary, I requested the names and contact info for the community members and she refused to give them to me.

Eventually, I told another member, the witch-spath-minion, that I was calling the cops on Malice for not giving me ALL the documents that the secretary is supposed to have. Witch-spath was one of my spath’s minions, so she called Malice and warned her.

When I drove up with my truck, Malice had all the documents in boxes waiting outside.

What I found out was, that Malice had been pretending to start the state required project, over and over and over again. There were several binders filled with studies that we paid thousands for, all provided by the same engineer, done at different times over the decade.

Malice liked to pretend that she was just learning all about the project each time she got new board members.

WHY would she do this? It made her feel important because she was the “Authority” each time.

I got the impression, just from my intuition, that Malice had been held back in grade school and that the following year, she had all the answers to the tests. This made her popular. I think that Malice has been trying to repeat that experience over and over again. She’s in her 70’s by now and still playing the same stupid games. She once told the Spathy Witch minion, “I like to be, ‘in the know’.”

Of course I really don’t know if Malice was held back in school, I just got the feeling, that she was being compelled by something from her childhood.


“Great Article, BBE, but I think that “splitting hairs” on the ages that these “pedophiles” are attracted to is going way tooooooo faaaaaar.”


I agree and also with your point about acting and desiring. Several times before, I made the comment that almost by definition, all active Pedophiles are Psychopaths, not only because such activities are seen universally wrong and illegal, but the damage done to victims is so severe that to perpetrate such a crime indicates a total lake of empathy.

I see rape similarly. 1) It is a crime due to lack of self-restraint; 2) The victim is harmed beyond the crime itself, indicating lack of empathy. Even classic defenses (“she led me on”) show a complete lack of empathy.

Sadly, the criminal “justice” system is still male dominated making rape under-reported and under-prosecuted. The opinion of many public leaders on this subject is appalling.


sounds to me like Malice had a territorial problem. I’ve seem people like that, the smaller their territory, the bigger they fight to control it. Petty minded people who carry a grudge. The apple did not fall far from my MIL’s tree; both her and my spath can carry a grudge for DECADES, smiling at the person, being their friend, biding their time until the ZAP moment that delivers the greatest pain. Simply vicious petty minded territorial people. You see them also in traffic, they are they road rage people. I let those type have their territory. It doesn’t make me weak, rather being petty is a waste of time. I just don’t have the years left on earth to waste on someone who won’t let me make amends, work with them, resolve an issue. They wanna carry their petty grudge? Let them have ALL the space they want.

More time for me to eat chocolate torte. Bavarian. Cherries, with real whipped cream. Ahhhh. and Champagne to sip with it.

Ox Drover

Louise, didn’t Jaycee have TWO children? where’d the second come from?


Kim, LOL!!! I was posting a general response to Raggedy’s response to the article. I don’t buy the neuropathy because it’s just another excuse – another label.

Shelf-life of attraction is real. But, so is engaging in something that is patently illegal, immoral, or unethical. The one remark that Raggedy made that caused my hackles to rise was this: “As in the first case profiled in the article, it’s an absolutely tragic affliction to live with. Act on it, and you are causing harm to other human beings and risk ruining your own as well and coming to violent harm. Control yourself, and you are living in deprivation or distraction and constant inappropriate romantic feelings or physical yearning for others a state you will have to medicate, or self-medicate, not always fully successfully.”

That Raggedy “stridently” disagrees with reader outrage is “allowed,” but very, very baited, and I’m not getting into an online discussion with an individual that appears to be deliberately attempting to provoke.

Readers and posters on bring every socipoathic experience to this site, including molestation and child sexual abuse. When individuals post comments or responses that attempt to minimize or excuse the HORRIFIC traumas that an innocent child is subjected to, it’s outrageous, audacious, and intolerable.

Brightest blessings!!!



She did have two children so I see your point, but it’s true after the second one, he no longer had relations with her. That was clearly stated in the show I saw with her and was it Diane Sawyer?

kim frederick

Skylar, your experience gives new meaning to the term,”water boarding.” 🙂


Kim, (snicker) – indeed!

Skylar, your experience with this Board is just another excellent example of the different TYPES of spaths. Not all spaths are romantically rooted, and power and control are the crack cocaine for spaths.

As far as the article goes, pedophiles damage children who have no options, and that’s HOW they can perpetrate their damages. I don’t care what “causes” pedophilia. It’s wrong, on every level, and generates a cycle of damages that often transcends generations.


Truth and Kim,
Waterboarding is the term we used, tongue in cheek, about the meetings.

Even as I was planning to reveal Malice’s malfeasance (and there was more) to the community, my spath was working to sabotage me. He encouraged all his minions to join the water board to make my life miserable, to lie to me, and to inform Malice. It was so bizarre. I had never seen so much blatent evil in my life and I had NO idea that my spath was behind it all.

It turned out for the best, though, because that’s how I came to realize that he had actually moved people into the neighborhood to be his “witnesses” who would testify that I was crazy and suicidal and had killed myself.

I joined the water board because I knew that Malice was up to no good, but my spath couldn’t stand to see me doing anything that wasn’t all about him, so he put his minions into action, earlier than he had planned. Before this, I had never even met most of these neighbors, that’s how isolated I was.

So I think this is a good example of how to force a spath to reveal his hand. Push the envelope so that he has to make another move and reveal his strategy.


Skylar, wow…..just, wow. Your experiences NEVER cease to amaze me. The primary spath was so calculating that it’s just mind-blowing.

And, you backspathed the spath without even knowing it!

I am SO grateful that you are out, Skylar. Good golly….

Brightest blessings

I think that all spaths are pretty much the same, the difference is that some are bigger gamblers. Mine likes to gamble that he’ll get away with murder and takes measures toward that end. Other spaths just try to get away with money.

I know another spath that did something similar but he didn’t hide his minions, so that I could finally see a pattern:
When you plan a murder, get minions involved so that you have eye witnesses who will testify on your behalf.

My exspath, though, took it further. He pretended he didn’t know the neighbors and he discouraged me from ever meeting any of them saying that he didn’t like them, they were all “bad people” who would “cause trouble” and that he didn’t like people knowing where he lived. The truth was that he was fucking the crazy-husband-stealing minion, selling drugs and mentoring the Witch and her husband minions, sharing porn with the blow hard minion and God-only-knows-what he was doing with the little old lady and her Austrian husband spath-minions.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that when a spath brings in minions –RUN, he’s planning a murder and he needs witnesses.

raggedy ann

It’s unfortunate that you can’t see much beyond an intention to provoke in what I posted. Stunning also that you don’t seem to have reacted similarly to talk of exterminating groups of people. Historically, lots of people — lepers, HIV carriers, tuberculosis carriers, the obese, other people with whom it might be dangerous to interact have been treated as disgusting and evil (and it *would* be evil for one to pass on his or her illness to someone else casually or willingly) but we did not usually exterminate them. We don’t exterminate people born with deformities that have no evolutionary explanation or adaptive value, which has come up in this conversation. We also don’t object to “she didn’t choose to catch leprosy/HIV/herpes/etc.” as somehow excusing the behaviors of willingly — or deceptively — passing the diseases on. I think it would be terrible to live with any of these conditions, and then with added pariah status.

Nothing I posted was an “attempt” to minimize harm done to paedophile’s victims or excuse the molesting of children — unless you regard acknowledging that hairs do have to be split “excusing” — in our legal system, we DO excuse it when the perpetrator and victim are close in age. I think in some states we used to allow 14 year olds to marry if their parents approved. I don’t know if those laws are still on the books.

You and some others seem to be objecting to uncovering any explanation for paedophilia. Your interpretation of explanations or markers as an “excuse” will not change the fact that they are real, if they are uncovered — and it appears that this is be happening.
I imagine neuropsychology will also at some point establish markers for people who end up in the clutches of psychopaths — trusting, nurturing, needy of physical contact with others, any number of attributes that have some strong or weak correlation will show up in the literature. Do you like the idea of someone suggesting that women or men with these markers should be sterilized, because of the burden their vulnerability creates for their families or children or society in general? Or exterminated? For whom among us has “NO CONTACT with the spath” been effortless? You don’t see any analogy here? I see two different people, but both trapped in their God-given nature and God-created circumstances. I know I failed over and over in the NC with abuser department and avoid bad men department and live without men department. Even after I was medicated. In fact, I am single and suffering as we speak, for a year or two. I don’t mean from sexual frustration exactly, but I can’t imagine what my experience might have been like with a male sex drive on top of my need to be held/touched etc etc.

And no, “analogy” does not mean that the proportions are equivalent. And the analogy is not perfect.
But why not wait for Germany’s experiment to fail before you condemn this research? We don’t have evidence yet that their approach endangers children. If the article is correct, it has actually protected them — which is the whole point. This kind of research is likely to play some role in programs like Germany’s.

As far as the quote that raised your hackles. Paedophilia is tragic when acted on — I can’t imagine you disagree with that. When not acted on — you don’t think that bears some resemblance to other kinds of peoples experiences with abstinence? Some people are fine, others really suffer. And, at the risk of being characterized as a troll again, I imagine in some cases their life of restraint must qualify as noble. Certainly stronger than I (see again the NO CONTACT with spath comments above).

raggedy ann

Kim Frederick,
I just noticed that you addressed me too. I didn’t say anything was gender specific, but since you raised the subject, I do think youth and variety are bigger weaknesses for men than for women — there is empirical data for this as well as evolutionary explanation.

As far as people willing to work around lack of attraction — I don’t know the failure rate, but it’s not trivial. And people trying to work things out with a partner outside their orientation — that’s going to fail even more often, I’m pretty sure. Rational thought trumps orientation probably a fraction of the time.

Raggedy Ann,
There is a community called Hollow Water that in 1986 began to discover so much sexual abuse in the community that they were forced to look at it and resolve it creatively.

You might be interested in this. Another LF member told me about it.

The Hollow Water Healing Circles don’t advocate punishment or prison but they do advocate responsibility. I think that the problem with calling it genetic, is that it sort of turns it into an unsolvable problem where the perpetrator doesn’t have to take responsibility because… they were born that way.

raggedy ann

Yes, Skylar, that’s often the argument regarding other problematic conditions as well, and it’s already been stated here multiple times — search for the word “excuse”. If medicine or science tells us they have strong evidence or even proof that something is biology-based, what are our alternatives to calling that something “biology based”? (or genetic, or heritable, or brain-tumor-driven, or any specific term examined or implied in scietific results or study)

Should we lie? Censor? Pray or look to religious texts for alternate takes?

What other things are problematic in seeing as biology-based? It was only a few centuries ago that we came to understand germs. In other parts of the world we are *still* burning witches we think caused this or that problem by being a witch, or by being possessed by demons, or whatever.

Limiting the conversation to things genetic, since you chose that word, should we condemn discussion of psychopathy, obesity, alcoholism, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, or borderine PD, having a genetic component? Do you think Dr. Leedham’s book stands to do harm or do good?

I would have trouble condemning a schizophrenic for something they did in the throes of profound delusion and hallucination. I don’t have trouble saying “It’s not your fault, but you must be medicated now” or “It’s not your fault, but society must be protected from you now.” In some cases, I could even be down with “it’s not your fault, but you must be held responsible” (meaning be convicted/go to prison/etc.)

I don’t have trouble with the idea of saying the the paedophile who offended, “That you have this disorder is not your fault, but you must be held responsible for what you did.” (Or even held responsible for not complying with mandated remedies or monitoring.)

kim frederick

Raggedy, and I never said anything about sexual orientation. What I see happening here is a confusing mix of triggering issues, and a lot of seemingly rational arguments that are an amalgamation of word salad. Please pass the ketchup….I mean bleu cheese. 🙂

kim frederick

I made my own bleu cheese dressing last week. Wow. It was so good. Buttermilk, sour cream, mayonaisse, blue cheese crumbles, fresh cracked black pepper, a touch of paprika and cayenne, worcestershire and ground mustard. then, because I had buttermilk left over, I made Ranch. same start: Buttermilk, sourcream, mayo, but then, lots of fresh parsley, dill and chives. I had a poached chicken breast left over after making gumbo, so I made a Buffaloe-blue pasta salad with celery, onion, and carrot, blue cheese and ranch dressing.


Raggedy Ann, my point in addressing your comments were specifically as Kim Frederick pointed out, above: readers who are compelled to find this site do so because of their experiences with very, very disordered people. MANY of the readers on this site experienced child sexual assault and regular molestation, and your comments are triggering for these people, and others who might be particularly raw.

You are, indeed, typing a great deal of word-salad that, taken as it’s written, inflammatory on THIS site. If you wish to support “data” that will, in essence, provide an ample opportunity for PREDATORS to play the “Label Card” as a defense for their deliberate actions, it may be more appropriate to take such discussion to a blog or discussion forum where HEALING and RECOVERY isn’t the primary goal.

Good gosh, but it seems like I’ve put too much water on my plants, today.


Kim Frederick, yes, the bleu cheese dressing goes well with spring mix, though I prefer homemade Russian which combines mayo, relish, and ketchup and then I whisk it all up and sometimes I use sour cream while other times I don’t but it’s all Russian dressing when I spoon it over spring mix but sometimes I use romaine…..ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

Kim……in two words: YOU ROCK

“It’s not your fault, but you must be held responsible.” I think that’s what spaths say to us. Actually, they say that it is our fault, it’s never their fault — even when it is. Either way, it doesn’t matter because WE must be held responsible, regardless of whose fault it is.

The fact is, we ARE all responsible for the existence of spaths. We HAVE enabled them. We DO participate in this spathy society with its spathy values (or lack of values). We imitate spaths, or the Jones, or whoever happens to be on reality TV this week. We pay attention to spaths, we allow ourselves to be scandalized by them, we watch them on Oprah, we FAIL to shun people who behave badly.

pass the bleu cheese dressing, please. I’m having a baby arugala salad.

Ox Drover

Sky, the Hollow water community projects make sense in a tribal or small community setting where there IS A COMMUNITY, unfortunately, in today’s society “community” means very little and what the “community” thinks doesn’t mean squat to most folks. LOL


OxD, even in smaller tribal and tightly knitted communities, there are always power struggles and machinations for control, status, wealth, and (most of all) power. But, you’re 100% spot-on that the smaller communities are more successful in managing “bad people,” even disordered leaders.

When I studied sociology in college, it was a VERY interesting run of courses. People are more like “herd” animals until disorder comes into the picture and they revert to more of a rabid “pack” mentality. It’s the “rabid” kind of behavior, rather than the cooperative behavior that is typically found in wolf packs.

Get a group of pedophiles together, and it’s the most toxic of all “packs” imaginable. Predatory behavior within this “disorder” are choices. They know what they are doing is illegal and amoral which is why they work so feverishly to cover up their crimes and intimidate their victims into silence.

Skylar, I agree that we are responsible to shun sociopathic individuals and behaviors that promote damages and negativity. No, I don’t believe that human nature will ever allow for a New Age, feel-good society because there are too many variables, now. Technology plays an ENORMOUS role in generating sociopathy – things that were once taboo or required to accomplish, in person, can now be found and done over the internet and cell phones. Television programming, the movie industry, and advertising media has more-or-less removed every boundary of decency and replaced morals and ethics with promotional nonsense that encourages bad behaviors and abandonment of conscience, empathy, and remorse. It’s just incredible, to me, how this society has dissolved into utter chaos in the span of 50 years.

There is yet another new “reality” television program that will be aired on A&E that had me SO rattled that I sent the promotional link to Donna called, “Southie Rules.” The promotional for this “entertainment” has a family of 3 generations in South Boston living together under the same roof. These people speak to one another using the most abusive, belittling, humiliating, and harmful words, AND they openly strike one another in the face, head, arms, and who-knows-where-else. THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT?!

So, we ARE responsible for the condition of our current society with regard to spaths. Now, the question is how can that pendulum be made to swing back towards the center? Before the collapse of every great empire, morals, ethics, common sense, accountability, and conscience fell by the wayside.

Shunning is a start. But, it’s something that must begin on the immediately local level: shun those around us that INTEND TO HARM OTHERS. Then, shun on a greater level – politicians and regional leaders must be called to the mat for their larcenies, etc Shun product manufacturers that support reality TV programming – DO IT. Just because we like the smell of a certain detergent doesn’t mean that we MUST purchase that product, especially if that company’s advertising dollars support the spread of “bad behaviors.”

There’s what’s right, and there’s what’s wrong, and there’s what lies in between. If it’s wrong, any association with whatever it is makes me culpable. I’m all for shunning on a global level.

Brightest blessings

Ox Drover

Truthy, for what it is worth, I buy American products IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, unfortunately too many products are no longer made in the USA, radios, TVs, light bulbs, etc. and most clothing.

I would shun advertisers of programs I think are bad…but since I don’t watch those programs I don’t know all the ones to not buy from….LOL Of course my 2 cents of business is not going to put these people out of business. LOL But you are right— COLLECTIVELY to boycott the advertisers of these shows and let the companies know it, would make a difference.

The “Jerry Springer” show BTW is fake, but that show does promote that life style as acceptable…I haven’t seen the show but have seen promos of that about the little chubby girl “honey boo boo” and it makes me want to puke. And the one about the teenage moms

Ox Drover

Thiis whole case is a terrible scandal from start to finish

Disgraced teacher Debra Lafave BACK on probation for having sex with 14-year-old student

* She was dealt a ten-year suspended sentence in 2005 for sex with pupil
* But punishment was frozen in 2011 to care for cancer-stricken mother
* Lafave: I spent my year of probation taking care of her and I’m so fortunate

By Matt Blake

PUBLISHED: 02:02 EST, 25 January 2013 | UPDATED: 10:14 EST, 25 January 2013

* Comments (43)
* Share

Disgraced teacher Debra Lafave, the woman convicted of having sex with a 14-year-old student is officially back on probation amid protests from the victim’s family.

The 32-year-old was dealt a ten-year suspended sentence in 2005 for a string of sexual encounters with a pupil at Angelo L. Greco Middle School in Temple Terrace, Florida.

But the punishment was frozen by a retiring judge to allow her to help care for her newborn twin sons as well as her cancer-stricken mother in 2011.

On Thursday, however, she was put back under Federal supervision to see out the remaining four years and two months of her sentence.

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raggedy ann

Kim Fredericks you wrote:
“Raggedy, and I never said anything about sexual orientation. What I see happening here is a confusing mix of triggering issues, and a lot of seemingly rational arguments that are an amalgamation of word salad. Please pass the ketchup”.I mean bleu cheese.”

This whole *thread* is about sexual orientation: that of pedophiles. My own point in using that language, and part of my original point, was that transcending that orientation is as impossible as it is for a straight person to become oriented toward their own gender or for me or you to start desiring children. It’s significantly harder than the “working around lack of attraction” when one is still dealing with someone in their own orientation (me with a guy, for example).

Of course these are triggering issues. The article itself contains triggering content, as to many peoples accounts of their own experiences. That comes with reading this website and is not something I am provoking on purpose. I’m sorry you find what I wrote to be a word salad and that things seem rational to you and then don’t. I was trying to be thorough in my responses to what people said where I saw what appeared to be holes in their own arguments. I don’t think “word salad” means what you think it means.

raggedy ann

Truthspeak, you wrote:
“Raggedy Ann, my point in addressing your comments were specifically as Kim Frederick pointed out, above: readers who are compelled to find this site do so because of their experiences with very, very disordered people. MANY of the readers on this site experienced child sexual assault and regular molestation, and your comments are triggering for these people, and others who might be particularly raw.

You are, indeed, typing a great deal of word-salad that, taken as it’s written, inflammatory on THIS site. If you wish to support “data” that will, in essence, provide an ample opportunity for PREDATORS to play the “Label Card” as a defense for their deliberate actions, it may be more appropriate to take such discussion to a blog or discussion forum where HEALING and RECOVERY isn’t the primary goal.

Good gosh, but it seems like I’ve put too much water on my plants, today.”

I think perhaps your issue is with Donna, for posting this article at all. I don’t think I said anything that isn’t also in the article, especially the input of the psychiatrist.

Yes, people, including me, read things that are triggering here. But you appear at the outset to have been triggered by these scientific findings themselves. I asked earlier what there is to be done about scientific findings. Perhaps Donna should not have posted the article at all, nor similar articles about the brains of sociopaths or mentally ill people…? I definitely wouldn’t agree — I think all of these things offer the possibility of coming to better understanding of things that have happened to us at other people’s hands. Donna may choose to single me out for censoring — I would find that puzzling, but you could suggest it to her. If she doesn’t, I encourage you specifically to shun me when I post, even addressing you — since you are apparently a proponent of shunning, and you already announced that you weren’t get into an on line discussion with me, and believe me harmful and ill-intentioned.

Perhaps the rest of the mini mob of mean girls posting mocking jokes about salad could follow suit.

I’m here because I belong, like anyone else who has been traumatized by disordered abusers. I’ll continue to point out where I think someone’s arguments or information are flawed.

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