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Sociopaths and sex: neither straight nor gay

Many women have written to Lovefraud about husbands who they’ve come to believe are sociopaths. They were astounded to discover that, not only was the husband cheating, but he was having sex with men.

Lovefraud reader eyeswideshut writes about this in a recent comment to the post, After he’s gone: looking at the sociopath through open eyes. She asks:

Now that I know he is also gay, is sociopathic tendency in married gay men not common as well? When I read the stories of the women in the book (“Straight Wives”), many of the men sound like sociopaths as well. Have you studied this phenomenon? Is it possible that gay men who choose to live the lie of married life are likely also socios?

To this, another Lovefraud reader, Leslie, commented:

On the third extended date I had with the SP, I turned to him one night, after we’d been together, and said, “Have you been with men?” Something in the way he’d made love made me think he had. He stared at the window and said in a monotone, “I have never made love to a man.” It was the same monotone he used to deny that he was living with a woman when I asked him that a year later. He was. I don’t have hard proof, but I know the guy had had sex with men.

Then alohatraveler commented:

I have heard from another victim of my sociopath that he was starting to get more “experimental” when she knew him. She knew him after me. He was expressing an interest in having sex with a man, but of course, with a woman present, because he was “not gay.” We both also saw an ad that he posted looking for sex with a transsexual. Then he placed an ad where he wanted a traditional type of woman.

“Not a gay bone in my body”

Shortly after I met my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, he proclaimed to me, “There’s not a gay bone in my body.” I had no reason to doubt him. But when I left him after two-and-a-half years, I learned a lot about his sexual activities:

  • He had sex with at least six other women during our relationship.
  • He was heavily into Internet porn.
  • He solicited gay male prostitutes.
  • He tried to arrange threesomes and looked for swinging couples.

In short, he wanted sexual thrills. The more different kinds of thrills, the better. I’m lucky I didn’t get a serious disease.

Screw anyone

Sociopaths are hard-wired for sex. They have an excessive need for stimulation, excitement and sensation. They also have no fear and no inhibitions. From a sexual perspective, that means a voracious appetite and anything goes.

Dr. Liane Leedom writes that sociopaths only want two things. One of them is power. The other is sex.

So when it comes to sexual orientation, I believe sociopaths are neither straight nor gay. In short, they’ll screw anyone.

Lovefraud has heard from gay individuals—men and women—who were involved in gay relationships with sociopaths. I asked several of them if they thought the sociopath was actually gay. They all agreed with my theory and said the sociopath was not gay.

Sex with an agenda

This does not mean, however, that sociopaths are out of control. On the contrary, to them, sex, and sexual orientation, is just something to be used in order to achieve their objective, whatever that is.

Perhaps the most egregious example of this is the case of James McGreevey, the former governor of New Jersey. McGreevey, you may recall, resigned from office after proclaiming in a news conference that he was a “gay American.”

The truth was that his political career was imploding under a series of scandals. As I wrote in a review of the book written by McGreevey’s wife, I believe the former governor played the gay card because it was the best way to spin his political collapse.

Sociopaths use people for sex, and use sex to get what they want. Anybody who suits their agenda will do.

If it suits their agenda to be married with children, then that’s what they’ll do. But if sociopaths indulge in same-sex relationships, in my opinion, it’s because they’re sociopaths, not gay.


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171 Comments on "Sociopaths and sex: neither straight nor gay"

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Thanks you Donna for your reasoned response.

Seems the bottom line is the socio’s appetites are insatiable, and taken together with their sense on it entitlement these qualities make any kind of healthy monogamous relationship impossible over the longer term.

Perhaps another way of putting it, when it comes to fullfilling their sexual desires, they do not discrimminate.

In any event, my question to myself now, after 27 years in a relationship with this person, is WHERE WAS I?

After ranting through the litany of his impossible behavior my job now is to learn what it is in ME that seeks that kind of lopsided, unhealthy relationship.

This sight has been invaluable to me in the last several weeks, and I thank you all for your work, and your readers for sharing.

so does any s path ever have a long term relationship that works, does anyone know of any. or is it there boredom and sexual hunger that makes this impossible. my ex s path always seemed to want to have anormal relationship that would last even tho his behaviour made this impossible. do they think about sex the same as us. my ex seems to think woman will be ok with casual sex but no relationship as long as they are censenting a dults to use his words. but i think no nice normal girl with any respect is going to be ok with that on a ongoing basis. maybe for a while if they have feelings for him but after that honey moon period surely not. do the s p aths realise we dont think the same way about these kinds of things as they do?

donna: how did you findout all about your ex s paths lies and his sexual activities ect. i find it very hard to find out things my ex is doing or did behind my back which makes it more confusing for me. i cant afford a private detective. i have found out somethings by fluke or my own guess work but he makes it very hard for me to know whats going on. es pecially with who is sleeping or if he is at all in fact and this is osmething you need t know sometimes if not for anyother reason but just peaceof mind and to know your suspicions are confirmed.

I look back at what happened to me, and I sometimes still can’t belive it actually happened. But it did. What’s more dangerous than a HIV positive sociopath? I wonder, will he ever be honest with people about his status?

Donna,
I think your insight is accurate. As my “James'” womanizing had become evident after almost two years, I had an uderlying feeling that absolutely “anything would go” with him, even though he professed to detesting gay men, even though everything had remained “puritanical” between he and I.

At the end of our relationship, on a group web site where we were both members he posted a very vile and false post outlining many personal details and falsely included details of an anal sexual experience between us that had never occurred, but had been discussed and he had suggested I use an appliance on him that he had in a drawer, but it was never accomplished.

I’d had some equipment stolen during the time we were together, that I felt little doubt he had stolen. My attorney suggested I gather together all my background information and submit it to a specialist in law enforcement, which I did, including a copy of this post. The officer developed a profile and one part of his profile stated in his professional opinion he felt certain gay experience was part of “James'” makeup.

“James” IM’d me after we had not seen each other in seven months under another guise of having a legitimate reason to contact me. A few minutes into our “conversation” on web cams I realized he was masturbating. Though we had always used web cams, they were never used sexually between us to my knowledge, though I’d always wondered about that aspect of him with web cams also and by that time I was aware he too had submitted profiles on almost every kind of porn site found on the net.

It was obvious to me, my “James” uses sex in exactly the way you describe, screw anyone and sex with an agenda. I experienced the same medical fears as you.

Interesting. My psychopath claimed to be straight, stared at every woman….had multible sex partners ( we were “friends”, not intimate) , cheated on wives…online sex, porn… acted very into women, objectifyingthem.

But then he admitted- really just mentioned in an off-hand way (probably gave the sick SOB a thrill) that he like hemaphrodites …just skirting the attraction to men. And then went onto mention Googling porn of the disabled. Yeah.

So I agree- it’s just about getting off on objectification…I think mine enjoyed the degradation particularly…he also mentioned being particularly interested in terminally ill women.

Oh, boy.

my xS actually mentioned to me fairly early that he liked men. and told me he was bi. he said that he didn’t have sex with men but he had been in a threesome with another guy. and sometimes he would see guys and say they were ‘cute.’ i immediately thought that he was gay but he adamantly denied that. soon after that he stopped pointing out other men and even women. (he refused to leave.)

i know he was having sex with other people during the relationship. to think otherwise would be foolish. but like jules said it is practically impossible to catch them in the act. you would have to be even more sneaky then him.

and my sociopath neighbor was supposedly gay but would constantly try to touch me and other women especially when he was high.

Mine was so adamantly insistent that he was straight that I had to wonder if he wasn’t protesting far too much. He was certainly an extremely sexual individual. He doesn’t see himself as a predator, by the way. He sees himself as a charmer who can get women to do anything for him because he’s so good in bed. He claims to enhance their self-esteem by treating them better than anyone ever has before. Most of them might not even consider themselves hurt by him, or so he has claimed. Every one of them has come back to him, time and time again, begging for more. I did it, too. How does that enhance anyone’s self-esteem? It certainly doesn’t. He also used the phrase “consenting adults” all the time because he’d romance a girl, get her to worship him, get her completely addicted to him, and then tell her that she just wasn’t enough, not quite right, and he still needed to look further for The One. But MAYBE, if they stayed friends (read f*ckbuddies), he’d come back once he realized she was the right one after all. He just couldn’t end things once and for all, oh noooo. He had terrible abandonment issues that made you feel sorry for him even though you KNEW inside that you were being manipulated somehow, you just couldn’t quite put your finger on it. He told me that being with him SOME of the time was still better than being ALL ALONE, which is what I’d have to go back to if I didn’t allow him his freedom. I swallowed all that crap whole.

He refused to use a condom, ever. He said they were icky and he loved me too much to put ANY barrier between us. I believed him, of course. And so did at least 15 others that I know of. He was always trying to get me involved in a threesome, which has never appealed to me, and I heard of another girl who participated in one with him. She was later dumped for “cheating” on him because she found the threesome arousing and interesting. He was only interested in persuading a girl to participate in something that was past her usual boundaries. Once past them, she was disposable, regardless of her own fear of abandonment. She’d keep coming back for more abuse!

This is a revelation to me. One of the hardest things I had to come to terms with about this man I loved was the sexual angle that seemed, at first, so electrifying, but slowly over time became the ultimate destruction of my self esteem. But I have never known how or where to talk about it as I didn’t understand any of it, or my part in it. It was all so insiduous, and at first thrilling, but eventually after I got hooked in, it became dark and sordid and ugly. But the damage to me was done.

How?

I was lured in by the angle they all seem to use, his charm, his seemingly genuine desire for me, that it was all consuming, and he did, as not quite broken says, seem to be able to bring your sexuality out like a flower in bloom. At first. The combination of sexual seduction and romance was irresistable. Here is a man making you feel the most desirable, attractive woman he has known, and how he only feels this way with you. The slowly introducing sexual fantasy play into your relationship. Gentle and just a little stimulating. At first. Slowly you find yourself trusting him enough to maybe reveal a few fantasies to him. That is enough for a while.

I don’t know how others worked, but my ex was never honest about his behaviour. He never talked about what he did. He focused on you like a radar and gave you (it seemed) his full desire and attention. Then slowly, occasionally, withdraw it. You wonder what happened, why? He slowly returns with a slightly new angle on the fantasy play. You are a little shocked, but you are hooked by then, you are in love, you don’t want him to know you are shocked, because you trust in him, so you perhaps say you don’t feel comfortable with that, he withdraws, cools, the lovely feelings you were getting are stopped. You don’t want to lose that, so you try to go along with his fantasies.

And for a while, that works, then he ups the anti, throws in another angle, a bit brutal, a bit sadistic. You are again, shocked. You at once are thinking, well I have gone along with him so far and he has never expected any of these things from me, its just fantasy, if I just go along with it, all those lovely feelings he can bring out in me will stay, if I don’t, he will be unhappy with me. It’s horrible for me now to realise how easily manipulated by this I was. But I loved him so much, and in between him wanting to enhance our fantasies to another level, he was the sweet, caring, affectionate man I believed him to be. Unless, of course, I didn’t play. If I didn’t play, he would withdraw. You are hooked into this game even when you start to feel uncomfortable.

But although the good wonderful feelings he makes you feel are still there, there is an underlying unease as you begin to realise that maybe these are not just fantasies, maybe he actually expects you to fulfill them. You feel uncomfortable because, generally, he is so attentive and sweet, and loving, and he told you you were the best thing in his world didn’t he? So why does he have these horrible sordid thoughts about you? Why would a man who genuinely love and care about your feelings, want you to do things that go against everything you stand for. You might find a way to gently express your concern…and he will fill your head with “we are just consenting adults giving each other pleasure” and “I just want to explore with you because I love you” and “I want to explore everything with you safe in the knowledge of our love and commitment” and “It will just make me love you more”. It all sounds so softly seducting while he is making you feel amazing…but in the cold light of day, the unease, the discomfort, the something is not quite right here, comes back.

Me? I started to unravel. I lost confidence. I felt insecure. He had told me how much he wanted to “experience another couple” or more importantly “watch me with other men”. I could never figure out why what we had wasn’t enough. I began to notice that he watched every woman everywhere we went, but in a subtle way. He never explained anything. He never discussed anything. He never talked “to” me, it was all done by laying out, by texts, or emails, or on msn, his fantasies. They got darker and darker. I got more and more insecure. I started imagining things were going on. I started to wonder what he was up to. I discovered texts, very graphic, sexual texts from other women on his mobile. I never saw texts that he sent as he deleted them. They were explained away as women who just had a crush on him, and wouldn’t leave him alone. He had always had this problem and effect on women. Righto.

I was hooked into his world so deeply by then I couldn’t see the wood for the trees. He told me I was too insecure, that I should be confident with him, because I was the one he “chose” to live with.

Eventually, without going on for ever, I discovered by accidentally getting into his email, that for several years he had been actively involved with “couples”. Generally men who want to watch their wife/partner with another man why they took pictures. I just couldn’t figure this out. I thought men were supposed to feel threatened by another man????? I realised very quickly after seeing the sites these people use and spending hours reading stuff on them, it’s a power thing. I also realised, very quickly, that my loving, attentive man, wanted to be one of those men. He wanted to have someone in his life he could go on the internet and say “This is my property. YOu can have her if you want.” He seemed to aspire and admire these men. They all seem pretty powerful characters and this way of behaving seemed so prevalent, and so many women seemed ok with it, and did it, that I began, for some peculiar reason beyond me now I have some sanity back, to think there was something wrong with me that I couldn’t be ok about it. That I felt hurt, anger and disgust that he wanted those things, and more, that he wanted them with me as his star performer.

He never told me any of this to my face. I found out because he was emailing couples on these sites telling them, not me, them, that I was ready for my first experience in group sex. It was the first I knew of it. But you know, as well as anger, I was afraid. I didn’t understand what or why he was doing this, and it all seemed so far removed from the man I loved. I thought it was just fantasy. To him it was very real.

By this time I was a shadow of my former self. I began to think everyone around us were probably attracted to him and wanted him. I became paranoid. I couldn’t stand and talk to anyone with him because I was aware now of the thoughts that would be going through this mans deeply depraved mind. I began to realise he wanted other women in front of me. I couldn’t eat. I couldn’t sleep. I didn’t know which way to turn. Why? Because I adored him. I loved him. I wanted to be his only one. I wanted us to live the dream he had given to me when we met. We had a fantastic physical relationship, why did he want this?

I went to a party once, during this time when I started to slowly fall apart, trying to be normal, trying not to see every woman and couple in there as a dangerous threat to me, I believe my sanity was very close to the edge. He was cool as a cucumber when my fears and tears were there for him to see. Somehow I felt that there was, again, something wrong with me that I couldn’t see all this as perfectly normal. Then, during the evening, a man next to me who i had been chatting to, trying to be normal, started telling me how attractive he found my partner, what a good looking guy he was, and how lucky I must feel to be in his life. I snapped inside. I thought is everyone in the world in love with this man as soon as they lay eyes on him, even men??? Do I walk around with the words “sexually available just ask him” stamped on my head? Does he walk around with the words “sexually available, all forms of pleasure available here” stamped on his?

I knew I was close to doing some very silly thing. Like drive my car in to a brick wall just to stop all this sick horrible stuff going round in my head, and yet still desiring him like a drug. I knew I was in trouble.

The crunch came, then, when I discovered he was now approaching men. Direct. He wanted to “explore” any form of pleasure. He approached guys, and they didn’t seem gay, more bi -sexual – “for fun and pleasure” – he approached transexuals, transvestites, couples, lesbians, using his same quaint approach, that he was a very sensual man just looking for pleasure.

However, I also discovered this tendency he seemed to have to take it just so far and then just disappear. I never actually found out if he experienced sex with a man or not. I ran like a frightened deer. But I found texts, emails from men, couples, women, asking him why he had disappeared, was he interested or not? Some actually asking him not to contact them again. They had no time for game players.

One couple actually asked him never to contact them again as he had disappointed them greatly and betrayed their trust. What he did, I never found out, but I suspect, knowing what I know now, he crossed a few boundaries.

It’s not the sex, I realised, It’s about gratification. It’s about power. It’s curiosity on how they can achieve yet another level of pleasure or power. It’s like a drug, they start experimenting, but how far do you go? At what point do they reach saturation having tried everything new they can? What do they do then? When I look back now, I realise I was living in his fantasy world too and believed all his “manipulations” about what a fantastic couple we made. He was good. He was very good. But I always felt he wasn’t really there, in the moment, more observing it, like a scientist watching the outcome of an experiment, and very very detached from any emotional involvement.

I am so relieved to discover that others have found this too. It’s horrible to be relieved about something like that, and I apologise for saying so, but i have had no one I can talk to about this as it’s such a difficult subject to discuss with someone who has no idea how you could allow yourself to fall under his spell and believe him.

It has caused me no end of emotional damage, and I feel sometimes that now I can never relate again to a man other than as a sex object. I have to feel sexually attractive now in a way I never did or I don’t feel wanted. It hurts me deeply because I feel something in my head has been tinkered with and I don’t know how to change it back.

I described it once to someone as imagining it must be what poor young girls who find themselves being taken care of bysomeone, trusting them, loving them, while they in turn put them on the streets to earn their keep. Pimping them. It must scar them for life. It’s how I feel.

Thank you for listening.

LJ

ellejay,

You said, “I have to feel sexually attractive now in a way I never did or I don’t feel wanted.”

I am glad you shared your thoughts and pain around a very destructive and manipulative relationship. What you said above in the quote is something that has been rolling around in my head for awhile but I had not written it down. In a way, I did feel more attractive with the man I now refer to as The Bad Man. He made me feel more desirable and attractive than anyone I ever dated. And honestly, when this first happened, I really thought this was the way it was supposed to be when you finally find The ONE.

Now I am not sure how to proceed with dating. I feel that most men at this point in my life treat me like I am just barely passable. I think this has so much to do with media brainwashing and all the visual expectations men put on us when, laughably, they are rarely “ALL THAT” if you know what I mean.

I think the Sociopath’s way of getting under our skin is to play into that thing of making us feel sexy and desirable in a way we have never felt before. I think we become sexier even when we feel so desired because we stop worrying about our thighs or whatever.

As far as all the twisted stuff your man was working up to, I believe my ex was on his way there and I did get that confirmation from another victim… we found eachother via Craigslist! My ex did have some strange ways of relating about sex and one thing he said often, “If one person denies the other one sex, that is the same as cheating.” He was into all this Tantric Sex bonding stuff which by itself can be very sweet between REAL lovers but he was using this stuff in a bizarrely twisted fashion.

I found all the sex with the Bad Man to be exciting and satisfying until I realized that it was required of me…. and I realized that if I said I had an appetite for sex but then we skipped a night for some reason, there would be hell to pay in the form of one of his flip-out breakdowns. He played the card all the time that he was a former Minister and that he was deprived in his marriage and that he needed to catch up.

And about the Gay thing, he claimed to have “cured” gay people in the past through prayer and to have made a man levitate with fervent prayer… and then, the man walked out completely cured of being Gay… and then now, he is placing ads for sex with a transexual. I never would have seen that coming back when we were together.

The thing is, Sociopaths or Borderline’s or whatever variety, are often part of some kind of extremism. I believe mine was a religious extremist at one time but then he let that go as part of a life transition and now sex is his extremism.

I wonder if anyone can relate to that?

Anyway, your experience shows us how addictive and destructive it can be when people get involved with porn and stuff like that. Please know that I am not saying that you did anything wrong. Who doesn’t want a little spice in the bedroom? Don’t worry about whatever you did…. it’s okay. But there’s that thing that they say when men get addicted to porn, they start needing things to be more and more perverse or they can’t get excited. Maybe in a different way, that is what happened to us… we were on the recieving end of such hypnotic attention that it is hard to feel desireable or turned on by an ordinary gesture of love from an ordinary man.

Honestly, at this point, I do not know what to look for in a man or what would make me feel desirable. Deep down, I wish I could have a man put me on a pedastal and desire me like the Bad Man did but have him be a good man! I don’t know if that’s real or possible or healthy.

Lately, I have been feeling like all men are predators or that they have some kind of agenda to use us for their pleasure… (sometimes I wonder if reading LoveFraud too much might be making me feel that). So, I have been doing an informal survey of men I have known for a very long time. Healthy men. I ask them what they think about during sex. Do they think about themselves? Do they think that they are getting something from the woman? Do they think about their body parts? Do they think about US????!!! I have gotten a variety of answers but thankfully, none of them have been sick and twisted. :o)

Anyway, don’t beat yourself up for being taken in by a Sociopath. You are not alone. Someone is reading your story today and they are saying, “Wow… that sounds just like my story!” And more than likely, they are a fabulous, loving, beautiful being just like you.

My heart goes out to all the wonderful people whom have been hurt by these BAD MEN! (and women… sorry guys, I don’t want to toss you all in the same bucket).

Maybe I am a dork but sometimes I just wish I could give every one of you a big hug because I know I could use one and because I totally and completely understand how all this happens because it happened to me. Perhaps visualizing that I can comfort another shows me that it’s okay that it happened to me too… I don’t have to beat myself up about it because I know you (yes, YOU) are not stupid.. therefore, neither am I.

Thank you so much aloha. Finally someone understands without me having to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.

It’s not that I beat myself up for anything I did do, because I didn’t do anything I am ashamed of. You hit the nail on the head really. Unfortunately, out of this bad experience, what we also have with us, is the heady remembrance of how they made us feel in those early days, the most desirable sexy woman and somehow bring that sexy desirable woman out of us. It’s not a feeling that is easy to forget. Who would? Here is a man making you feel the most gorgeous, stunning lovely woman who he desires and loves. Who wouldn’t want to feel like that? And why wouldn’t we believe it is possible? It’s “The One” factor we always dreamed of but never thought would happen, and suddenly here it is, right here, in our life.

Somehow all the bad stuff doesn’t every erase that memory. The idealisation of you is total and intoxicating. The slow demoralising of you is damaging to the extreme, but the memory still lingers. I can only imagine it is like a torturer who offers a hostage freedom by giving him a glimpse of the sunlight before he laughs and throws you back into the hole. Bit extreme maybe.

He was so supremely confident. He drew people to him like a magnet. He was softly spoken, seemed kind, and to all appearances he is. But in romance and love, it’s a different ball game. He never harmed me, he never directly asked me to do anything. He was more insiduous than that. He let you know in his texts and emails what he fantasised about, whilst in the flesh he made you feel special and wonderful. It was hard for me to see the two sides as the same man.

I guess what I beat myself up about the most is that I didn’t get out sooner once I realised I was in trouble mentally. If he wants to live that way, who am I to judge? I was staggered by the number of willing people on those sites who incorporate this kind of thing into their normal daily life. But, the one major difference seemed to be that they were comfortable with who they were, and pretty open about it. He was not. He was devious and secretive. When I faced him with it, he refused point blank to discuss it. I said, if you had told me from the start the kind of things you want I would have been able to make an informed choice whether I wanted to live with you and be a part of your life. I would have at least been aware.

He cheats. He lies. He deceives. He doesn not admit to the things he says or does. If I found out about a woman, they were chasing him. When I asked him point blank if he had ever been with a man as his emails seemed to imply, he just said, I have never been with anyone but you. I just want to explore with you and see you experience pleasure, it would please me to see you enjoy yourself.

He would tell me he was so proud of my body and my sensuality, it was this that made him want to share me with others.

It is the classic make you feel good and make you feel crap in one sentence. I liked that he loved my body, I hated that his idea of love was to share me around like a piece of meat. His piece of meat.

I ran from him. He just said of this, “we wanted different things..you didn’t want to explore with me”. Like that’s all there was to the 2 years I gave him???? Exploring?

What about the fact I gave up my job, my home, my family to fly a thousand miles to live with him because he got a job overseas? What about the times I held him while he cried because he missed his daughters so much? (even though in the 3 years he has been gone he never once flew home to see them). What about the help I gave him when he was moving overseas and had no idea what to do with his stuff so I stored it for him? The promises he made but never kept? That he told me we would be together forever because “you can live your whole life and never find the love we have found together”? These are the things that mattered to me. That and the fact I felt incredible with him.

He took all that special feeling and trashed it. He sullied it. He dirtied it. I have always had a healthy sexual appetite. He brought it to life and then twisted it and turned it into something I still to this day can’t fathom.

You are right, I think – we got addicted to the way they made us feel. We wanted to feel that way. I tried to deny the other stuff just to hang on to those feelings. But, like the instinctive animals they are, he knew. He knew I wasn’t really into his fantasies, that I was finding them hard to handle, and slowly started to punish me by withdrawing those things from me. He stopped the loving romantic gestures and texts. He never even looked at me when we went out. The more he withdrew, the harder I tried. I dressed to kill, he didn’t notice. I flirted with other men, he was oblivious and didn’t care. I cried. He ignored. I asked him what was wrong – he told me I was too negative.

I was putty in his hands because I wanted to feel that way again. I wonder, is it that feeling I seek and know somehow will never get again because it wasn’t real in the first place? It was real in me, but not in him. I truly believed it was a fairy tale romance. How sad is that? And now I have tried dating men again. I have known I don’t feel any great feeling for them, but if they express desire for me,and they do, and they seem nice men, I respond to it and then beat myself up for that because I realise very quickly I don’t want to be involved with them. I just needed to know they found me desirable. It’s awful. It’s as though I need to have that feeling that I am desirable to them, even if they are not desirable to me.

I am not a nympho, I have only tried dating 3 times, and then stopped when I realised I just can’t seem to feel that way about anyone. I actually want the love and romance more, but it always seems to get tangled up with needing to feel attractive and desirable. It’s like I have lost my “self” and only feel good about my self if I am “desirable” and I never felt that way about myself before this experience.

You are far from a dork. It has the same effect on me. I read a story, I resonate so much with what they say, and I want to reach out and hug. Say, hey, it’s ok, I understand completely how you feel.

I am 18 months over it now. I have come a long way, it is just this one aspect now I can’t seem to a)explain b) understand and c) heal.

The abusive behaviour, the contempt, the belittling, the silent treatments, the controlling, the lies, oh the constant lies, those I have seen in these sites I read and books I read, and I recognise now his pathology.

But the sexual aspect, the way he seems to have undermined my core belief system and made me feel somehow I have to identify myself now by sex rather than by who I am, that is something I seem unable to deal with.

Thanks. Thanks so much.

LJ

ellejay
I feel so sorry for you. But the best part is that at least you didn’t get any disease with these evil one. Sociopaths are so secretive with their promiscus life which makes so difficult for us to figure them out. The best thing to do is to get out of the relationship as soon as possible before contracting an STD. This is so scaring.

First thing I did when I returned to the UK Pitanga. Got full health checks. Was clear.

But how humiliating that we have to go to that length because we have no idea. I have never felt so humiliated and debased in my life answering questions about why I was there.

I am out of the relationship now some 18 months. Just still bear some scars.

Thanks
LJ

I absolutely agree that sociapths have no fixed perference when it comes to sex. Like everything else in their lives it is just a tool to wage control over another person to get what they want.
After I discovered the whole scam, I talked at length to his OW. She told me that she suspected that he was gay as he was always in the company of men friends and looking back, he did seem to have a strong control over many of the young boys he worked with. It had not occurred to me when I was with him but now I can see that he would sleep with anything for power.
I am lucky that the shock of finding out all the lies ‘woke me up’ from the surreal situation and I was able to free myself from his evil mind. The OW though is still with him, even though she felt she needed to get an AIDS test!! It seems nothing he does will make her walk away. I believe now that she must also be a P or have some kind of personality disorder as she is just as dishonest, manipulative as he is and they both conspired to con me of a great deal of money.
Swallow

Thanks, Donna, you have really hit on something crucial here.

1. It helps to explain the prevalence of sex (rape and not rape) in prisons by ‘straight’ men. The argument that “men have their needs and I’m not really gay” just doesn’t sound right. What we have is a population with a high proportion of psychopaths (and very many others with strong psychopathic traits) who are devoted to power and sex and locked up together.

2. It also points to the not uncommon phenomenon of married men-who-have-sex-with-men. Some of these are really gay men who for one reason or another don’t come out. But maybe some are psychopathic.

Neither gay nor straight nor bisexual, really – pansexual. Anything and anyone will do.

I agree, it is a hard thing to talk about, the sexual relationship with the S. Our first year he could not have enough. It was constant. I am a pretty sexual person so it was ok, but then he started bringing in all the suggestions for having another woman in with us, or when we were in Las Vegas, he wanted to get a prostitute to come in our room or he was always trying to be a little violent.. starting to choke me just a little or pull my hair way too hard…. these things were a constant little thing going on in the background all the time. I didnt feel comfortable doing the things he wanted to do and I felt our sex life was really good and very often. Why was it never enough I wondered. Then to find out later, he was cheating all along.. I cant even understand how the man could find the energy for even more sex on the side!

The second year.. all of the extreme things he wanted to do all the time – he stopped asking. He became very “normal” and sex was always good. Now I look back and realize he was probably fullfilling all those way out desires elsewhere, which allowed him to act like a normal guy with me.

The other thing that has ruined it for dating most men, is that he was sexually knowledgable beyond any womans dream. He knew a womans body like no man ever has. I guess you learn alot when you’ve slept with a million women like he had but how do you ever feel attracted to less? Once you have had the best sex.. it was so emotionally empty and full of bad intuition though that I think normal sex with a guy would be nice to not be feeling sick on the inside about the reality of your relationship. I think that’s how he traps so many women – once they have experienced sex with him – he has them on the hook. They follow him like a puppy.

Yes findingmyselfagain.

The Bad Man knew all the tricks too. Interesting. I mean I had always wanted a deep relationship that would go deep in the bedroom as well. One out of two ain’t bad. It is a hook.

I have an email saved somewhere that I wrote long after being off island. It was like a love letter where I told him all the things I loved about him (because he had complained that all I said was bad things). It was like a Valentine and there were some steamy things too but it didn’t cross the line. Now, I look at it and I say, “WOW! How could I write something like this to a man that was so destructive?!” And the strange thing was I expected that he would honor me in the same way and tell me what was special about me since the dust had settled between us. His reaction was like “thanks.” Occasionally he would write how he missed me (or should I say, missed my parts). His emails were gross and degrading and lacked the sentimentality I had hoped for. Instead, I felt degraded and gross.

BLECH!!!!

Looks like one of the common elements to this thread is
1) Any personal boundaries set by their target is treated as a betrayal by the socio- ie “if you really loved me you would do …..”

2) They have a lot of trouble coming to grips with the notion that anyone could burst the bubble and escape the spell… or should I say hell….”How could you leave me?..But You said you loved me…? (little boy voice)

Mine sat face to face with me for a month after my sordid discoveries…I got us thru a traditional Christmas, family – grandkids etc. and for a month he had no explanations, no remorse,no guilt and no empathy for the extreme emotional pain I was in – to the contrary – I think it beat watching his favorite sport.

Now that I hav managed to get rid of him and stay in my home (3 weeks) he is going to all my firends and playing the dejected victim, telling them all how much he loves me… can’t understand why I would break up the family that he cares so much about. blah blah….THEY DO IT FOR SPORT. Stay strong ladies and gentlemen, don’t forget they are only 4% of the population, and there are 6 billion people on the planet. We all deserve one of the other 94%

One other point, I was with this man for 27 yrs. stupidly ignored some red flags because he was just too “decent” and only in the last year have been making my getaway. For those of you that catch on in a couple of years, pat yourself on the back. You have won yourself tthat much more time to heal. Peace to all.

My experience only lasted two months, but I am still dealing with the aftermath. Waiting for my window period to be over to get a difinitive answer on my HIV test, and then having to deal with seeing his sorry ass around town…..I cannot imagine how years of being with a sociopath would feel, then finding out……I just cant imagine it. sometiems I feel I will never ever truly be over it- not until I know I will never see him again. How do I get past that feeling? I do I not care one way or the other?

I think what drew me initially to this blog was that I had believed I was in a unique situation. I couldn’t talk about it to anyone, that this man I loved had transpired to be a man who had no boundaries, no real ethics.

Pansexual. Yes. That works for me. See, there is no way this man is “gay” in the way we understand it. He loves women, he loves what he can do to women. As the reality began to hit me, and I realised that this special little erotic world we had that I believed was exclusive, something we were creating just between us, was something he did with countless people, male or female, sharing erotic fantasies and more specifically degrading filthy ones, like some people breathe. It is almost robotic.

I noticed, when he was writing fantasies, or more particularly, encouraging you to send them to him, he was a different person. His tone, his language, was blunt and brutal. On the odd occasion that we were apart and he phoned to get “dirty” his voice became monotone. When he was romantic, it had a lovely lilt. I could tell, just by the tone of his voice, which it was to be.

But looking back, it was his constant use of certain words. “Exploring” was one of them. He referred to his penchant for very dirty sex and fantasies as “exploring”. Or “playing”. Let’s “play” was a favourite one.

He was strange. He only had to write one line in an email to a woman such as “tell me one of your darkest fantasies my sex babe” or something like it, and they would send an essay back of the darkest filthiest they could, but ending up with how much they loved and desired him.

And in those early days, I did too. With me, as his partner, he was more “selective” choosing instead to woo me with “erotic” fantasies – he didn’t want to push me away with his dark ones so he went elsewhere for those – but the pattern was the same.

With the men I witnessed him contacting – it was always very blunt. Cold. almost menacing. I believe now that he hated that part of himself because he wrote in such a way that he sounded like he was putting up with their desires, rather than actually seeking it himself.

I also realise now that although he made me feel fantastic, he never once told me I made him feel the same. I know now that any time we were together, in his head he would have been somewhere else in a fantasy. He observed and watched how his moves worked on you and somehow I would sometimes get the feeling he had tried this somewhere and wanted to see if it worked on me.

Oh this is hard to talk about.

Sorry.

LJ

Let me add a few things that I have observed in my 55 years of living.

First of all, I have had several good friends who were/are homosexuals (male and female). I don’t look at them through the eyes of “what is your sexual orientation” and I hope that no one looks at me that way. After all, sexual orientation is really a private matter. I don’t see any need whatsoever for there to be “gay bars” or “gay hang-outs” since any bar, restaurant, hang-out or whatever ought to be for human beings.

Second, I have read that there are several “causes” for homosexuality and each cause can be a strong factor in the type of person one is dealing with. One cause can be that genes have been activated (or not) due to gestational environment, birth order, diet of the mother, maybe EM waves on the planet, or whatever. In short, the body is of one type and the “gender triggers” are of another type. In such a case If the person decides to choose to go the way that the body is constructed and deny the “gender triggers” there might be a lot of misery.

And then, there is the more frightening form of pseudo-homosexuality Donna has described that IS related to psychopathy. It is not homosexuality for any of the ordinary reasons but simply emerges from a mind-set that sees sex as a physical appetite like any other and will use whatever or whoever is present to satisfy those urges. The “partner” is never anything other than an object to be assimilated in some way; to have power over them as Donna notes.

I also find her reference to James McGreevey fascinating. How many of you have noticed the extraordinary number of reports of so-called homosexual scandals among members and friends of the Bush Administration?

How many of you remember the 1989 Washington Times expose of the homosexual and pedophiliac prostitution scandal that “snared” Reagan and George H. W. Bush? It was hushed up pretty quickly, but it was a momentary insight into what goes on “at the top” and what kind of people are making our laws for us. Talk about setting the fox to watch the henhouse!

When you look at a collection of these articles that have emerged time and again, only to be dropped like hot potatoes, it seems that our “leaders,” people like Bush, Cheney, Rove, and so on – even if they live lives as declared heterosexuals – are, by nature this particular kind of homosexual, one that utilizes homosexuality as a means to dominate other men. My guess is that this was the real background to the much vaunted “Greek Pederasty”. It wasn’t about “loving little boys” it was about corrupting and controlling them a la Ponerology – they were objects, helpless and impressionable ones at that.

There is a close relationship between this type of psychopathic homosexuality and pedophilia because, as I said, it is about dominance, control, subjecting those weaker than oneself. It is this kind of homosexuality that has gotten the most press and is the reason that there is an almost knee-jerk reaction to homosexuality among many fundamentalist types – you know, the “moral majority.” But in a very bizarre twist, this same Moral Majority supports and endorses the very psychopaths that are the type of “power homosexual” that they fear and detest! How do they get away with it? Well, we all know the answer because we know about psychopaths and how they get away with it on a personal level.

If you are using someone else to make you feel good and what makes you feel good is dominance and control, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, you are abusing the creative energy of sex.

We also notice that the latter kind of psychopathic homosexuality is also quite often connected to things like B & D and strange sexual practices that have nothing to do with deep, spiritual love and honoring and holding up to spiritual cleanliness and divinity the flesh of another person.

Pornography is also related to the abuse of sex, whether homosexual or heterosexual. By it’s very nature, it promotes “wishful thinking” and fantasy which is the trap that victims of psychopaths always fall into. It also objectifies another human being.

For the most part, I have observed that people who are “into” pornography wouldn’t know what to do with a real person if there was one there. Those that have relationships and still seek porn are even sadder because it suggests that their relationship with a real human being is so poverty stricken that they still must seek to live in a realm of “wishful thinking” and try to drag someone else in there to help them prop up their illusions (or delusions).

But then, American culture is schizophrenic about sex in general. Sex is used to sell everything, but god forbid if women should dress attractively and celebrate their sexuality because then they are sluts (or targets for psychopaths). Viagra and other treatments to have more sex, better sex, longer sex and so on are so common that it makes you wonder if society has gone mad: condemning on one hand what they advertise as being most desirable on the other hand. But that is the trick of the psychopath’s trade, isn’t it? Psychopaths in power, that is.

So, you have this schizophrenia going on about sex, and people start wondering if they really are missing out on something, and the psychopath comes along and whispers sweet nothings (literally) in your ear and what’s a person to do?

The problem seems to be with self-perception within and as measured against a social convention. The latter most certainly has been propagated in insidious ways.

In a book entitled “Sex In History” by G.R. Taylor (1954), he proposes that there are two basic kinds of people. I don’t necessarily agree with his ideas as he has framed them, but he did come up with an interesting list that I would like to share here.

Patrist – Father-Identifiers

1. Restrictive attitude to sex
2. Limitation of freedom for women
3. Women seen as inferior, sinful
4. Chastity more valued than welfare
5. Politically authoritarian
6. Conservative: against innovation
7. Distrust of research, inquiry
8. Inhibition, fear of spontaneity
9. Deep fear of homosexuality
10. Sex differences maximised (dress)
11. Asceticism, fear of pleasure
12. Father religion – “Thou shall not break the Ten Commandments or you will burn in hell”

Matrist Mother-Identifiers

1. Permissive attitude to sex
2. Freedom for women
3. Women accorded high status
4. Welfare more valued than chastity.
5. Politically Democratic
6. Progressive: revolutionary
7. No distrust of research
8. Spontaneity: exhibition
9. Deep fear of incest (pedophilia)
10. Sex differences minimised
11. Hedonism, pleasure welcomed
12. Mother religion – “God is all loving, all forgiving and all understanding”

Now, I don’t necessarily agree with all the ways Taylor has divided the issue, it’s just a platform to think about things. What occurs to me is that he has failed to take into account psychopathy and its influence on human society. I don’t think that matristic societies are “sexually permissive,” though they are probably more understanding of variations in individuals.

In our present mostly patristic society, there is an awful lot of homophobia being promoted. What is bizarre about it is that the psychopaths at the top of the heap that use this as a “fear prod” are so often exposed as having those tendencies in the psychopathic way, certainly not as a normal variation. At the same time, there are a lot of sex based taboos being promulgated by these same “moral majority” types, conservatives, whatever you want to call them, and again and again one or another of their membership is exposed as doing the very things they rail against!

Sounds psychopathic to me.

Whewee–
Take a break from this blog for awhile, and then see the discussions you’ve missed!

I’ve posted here many times. I am gay and my Psycho was too.

Donna, I have to say, that although there may be many psychos out there who will “screw anything,” I think there are also some who still have preferences.

Mine had come out of the closet when he was 31 (according to him). When I knew him he had a rainbow flag bumper sticker on his car’s back bumper. So, I don’t think he was pursuing women. The rainbow sticker would have been a rather obvious sign!

He had bisexual artwork on his walls (subject matter, I mean) but I think he used that to seduce guys who were bi or thought they were straight.

His other rooms were filled with framed photos of men…and nothing else.

He had a religious upbringing by fundamentalists and his sexuality had been repressed. And he had been with women earlier on before he came out.

He was definitely into the power/sex thing, but he clearly was much more, if not exclusively at this middle aged time of his life, into guys.

He was an ex-con, as I have mentioned in earlier posts.

Sure, he could have been fooling me, just like so many of the people on this site concerning secret lives he was living. I’ll give you that. But, the evidence and the social activities he was involved in were all-male bonding groups.

Even if he was seeing women that I didn’t know about, I think he was much more if not exclusively into men (or else he would have had to change every single photo hanging on the walls of his house and the bumper sticker on his car)

I think that there are lots of gray areas in this psycho/sexuality topic.

Donna, your statement about sociopaths indulging in same-sex relationships because they are sociopaths and not because they are actually gay, is likely true for only a certain category of these people (perhaps a large category), but I don’t agree that it is true for all sociopaths.

laman2,

I think the underlying point is that in some way, Sociopaths are often indescriminate in their sexual encounters or in their attention getting strategies.

And they may adamantly claim they are not into this kind of person or that.. but then later, don’t be surprised whan “that” kind of person is their latest conquest.

These posts were disturbing to me because they hit so close to home. It is very healing to me to be able to put words to all the mixed emotions I have been feeling. My 6 month affair with the S was characterized by a very passionate sexual relationship. Through things he said, I realized that in the past he had used websites to hook up with women for one-night stands, he had gotten an infection from anal sex with a woman, and he admitted to regularly viewing porn on-line. He also told me that another woman that we worked with was confessing all kinds of things to him, like the fact that she and her husband were going to fetish parties, looking for another woman for a threesome. He was in charge of setting up a bachelor party for one of his friends and was going to hire some exotic dancers to hang out with them for the night–he was hoping they could work around the “no touch” rule. After all, he said it was “just touching”. I also knew that he had numerous affairs outside of his marriage. He confessed some of these to his wife and became so “depressed” that he was on disability for 6 weeks. She then made him attend a sexual addiction 12 step program. Just recounting this has made me question myself even more. He told me this stuff! Yet, I still remained involved with him. I was still passionately attracted to him like I could never get enough. This has made me confront my own “broken-ness” –how could an intelligent person choose to be with someone like this? All the sociopaths seem to have this insatiable nature to them–no thrill is ever enough. I always had the feeling, that he metered out his attention in small does to keep stringing me along and keep finding time for his “other interests”. He was always easily bored and would send the most passionate e-mails, then no correspondence for days and days. He could turn it off and on like a switch. One night, when we were at work, he was acting so depressed that many people commented on it. He left early and I called him to make sure he was okay. He said he was on another call. Later in an e-mail, he said he was talking to “a friend” with a problem and it helped him so much to focus on someone else and be helpful! I have questioned my sanity so many times. What was so irresistible about him? He tried to convince me that I was different, that he could tell me anything, that I was so accepting all the while doing heaven knows what. What a fool I’ve been.

distraught: dont feel bad – my experience was just like yours, but for 2 years. When I think back at all the stories of tragedy going on between us, I am shocked at myself for justifying my staying. And I even went back to him several times after horrific cheating, lying or deception. I guess being so deeply involved with what I call a mentally ill person, can make one mentally ill. You dont see straight and you almost start justifying his mistakes for reasons that would normally never fly with you. Mine had all kinds of weird sexual past and suggested at many things with me too, but I wouldnt do it. I think he found time in between seeing me to play out all those other fantasies, which is why he could keep up the good boyfriend role with me. Except of course the times he’d stumble, and Id find out about stuff. I felt a fool too, but realizing they are the fools and we are just a victim of their sickness. This site is great for making you feel more normal. Keep reading 🙂

Distraught-I can relate! I have questioned my own sanity and thought of myself as having sociopathic tendencies because of him. I got to the point of wanting to be or do anything that would keep his interest in me!—Including sexual. Although, even after a year it didnt get to the uncomfortable stuff. And many times I questioned whether he was gay. I was willing to submit to whatever he would want, even suggesting it myself. What was irresistible about him??? I ask the same question. The Sex was Wonderful and I am a sexual person but you cant base a relationship on that alone. He was charming, but only in the begining. He then would give only bits of himself and then became more outwordly nasty and never EVER did a damb thing for ME!! He would Come on strong and pretend and then do his disappearing act. He is gone for good now. But…It is at a point where he has his family and some of my friends thinking I am the crazy one. I have been excluded from parties and people have lost contact with me. I then decided to give my own party. The people he and his family have fooled were once my friends….now they wont respond or they are declining the invite. He walks around town like he is the sane one and I am a psycho! Knowing I can never speak up and no one would understand the web he had me in. The sweet talking, then nasty, then sweet talk, then GREAT SEX, then take my money and run!
And EVERYDAY I ask, “What is wrong with me?!” “Why did I allow this to go this far?” “Could I have done something different that would have changed the outcome?”
Seriously, What is wrong that I am still blogging? He is still Blogging my HEAD!!

change06–isn’t it amazing how they all sound the same! These people can be so intense and so charming in these incredible short bursts that make us do damn near anything for them. Then, after time and distance, we feel used and stupid, only to fall for it again and again. Several weeks ago, he suggested we meet to talk (this is after I had already broken it off)–by the end of the conversation there I was again, kissing him passionately knowing full well, he is a lying, manipulative jerk. I had some e-mail correspondence with him this week (yes, I know I shouldn’t have, looking for closure as if he would actually give it to me) He responded with a ranting e-mail about how he loves me and I will never understand how much and he’s sorry he can’t give me everything I need–that’s just the way he is. He used lots of all caps and desperate words–he even called me to apologize for being so out of control. He said I had him in a desperate emotional state. I sent him a thoughtful answer and of course I haven’t heard another word from him! So much for him being an emotional wreck and desperate to hear from me! I think perhaps he finally realizes that there is no way I would start anything up with him again. Even though I felt extremely sexually attracted to him, the sex was never really amazing–he just had such a charming way about him I kept falling for all the crap. Plus it’s hard for me to stop being the “nice girl” and tell someone to their face that I think they are lying. That’s why Lovefraud keeps telling us “no contact”– I get it now. They get us hooked in a big way, then because they have no real feelings or conscience, it’s easy for them to walk away with no pangs of regret either for a short time–to keep us stewing and obsessing, or forever, if we become too difficult for them to bother with. They just move on to their next easy mark. Findingmyselfagain: I agree with you, I think being with these kinds of people starts affecting our mental state. I could not believe I was capable of getting involved with him like I did–there have been numerous moments where I thought I was going crazy. Glad we can commiserate here!

I think that in some cases – the narcissist or psychopath was probably sexually abused in the past.

Sexual abuse CAN cause psychopathy, homosexuality (obviously not in all cases), sexual identity issues, sexual confusion, sexual addiction, obsessive compulsive disorders, and a sh*tload of other personality disorders and issues.

Isn’t it wonderful the torture humans can put each other through. 🙁

Distraught-Everyone says it seems like we were involved with the same guy! We were, they are all sociopathic!! I know how you feel about being sucked in again. Mine lured me in again and again and again. You are right, when we get too difficult for them or we figure them out its a quick slam of the door. He ended it with me. He stopped calling me or taking any of my calls. I was so wrapped in his ways that I even told him I knew he cheats and didnt care. I also told him that I thought he was a sociopath (even before I knew of this site). He said, “well that is the way I am and I dont care”. He admited he doesnt give a damn about others feelings, cheats, lies etc. but I stuck around taking all the abuse….because I loved him. What I was loving was my own fantasy of the way I thought it could be. The littlest nice thing he would say I would analyze and fit it into my own distorted picture of us. Im not loving myself though and it is hard to get it back.

I PRAY THAT WE “REAL VICTIMS” WILL FINALLY GET THE PEACE OF MIND THAT WE DESPERATELY DESERVE. LIFE IS WAY TOO SHORT TO CONTINUE DEALING WITH SOMEONE ELSE’S PROBLEMS. WE CAN’T BLAME OURSELVES FOR WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US OR OUR CHILDREN, ALL WE CAN DO IS GROW FROM IT, AND MOVE ON TO BECOMING HEALTHIER INDIVIDUALS FOR THE SAKE OF ALL INVOLVED. THESE KIND OF PEOPLE ARE WAY TOO “SICK” FOR US TO EVEN HELP THEM. WE ARE NOT DR. PHIL, AND EVEN IF I WAS… YOU COULDN’T PAY ME ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH A PERSON/ PATIENT LIKE WHAT IS DESCRIBED ON THIS WEBSITE…. SOME PROBLEMS ARE LEFT FOR GOD TO DEAL WITH. EVERY DOG HAS IT’S DAY. A PERSON CAN ONLY GET AWAY WITH HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE FOR OH SO LONG. IT IS UP TO “US” TO TAKE A STAND, AND BECOME REAL SURVIVOR’S OF THE MADNESS. GOD BLESS YOU ALL. YOU ARE MUCH THOUGHT ABOUT IN MY DAILY THOUGHTS, AND PRAYERS AS WELL….DSPOTWELL

distraught,

Sometimes we have to get stung a few more times to confirm for ourselves that that really is what it is and that we really don’t like that. It’s like touching a bench that has a sign that says “WET PAINT.” We know what wet paint is but we just have to check it out don’t we?

I can speak for myself though. It does eventually go all the way away. I found a letter today on my computer. It was titled “VENT” and it was something I wrote to the Bad Man. I wrote it when I was still mad as hell but didn’t quite understand what it was that happened between he and I. I guess I was still ruminating as Dr. Steve says. It was amazing to me how I see everything different now. I was just arguing in circles with the wind, to be honest. I never did send this letter because I did know by that time that it would only invite more attacks on me and I had had enough of that.

I cannot TELL you how I have struggled with whether or not he was toying with me the entire time. I can pin him on virtually every level of the characteristics of a sociopath EXCEPT his hurting intentionally. He was one of those S’s who was in no way outwardly abusive – it was all revealed later with many, many lies exposed and he went into the most apalling scapegoating, self-preservation mode that I have ever witnessed – downright subhuman is what it was. Not ready to go into my story yet, but I will say that it seems that while we all seem to have been with the same man, there are variations in our stories and my therapist pointed out something to me that has helped me a great deal as we were trying to figure out – was he a sociopath, malignant narcissist, borderline personality disorder, etc. He said “There is no such thing as a good clean disorder”. So, while there is no doubt in my mind that he is a sociopath, I also believe that he is one, completely messed up individual and to which degree he was any of the above mentioned disorders I will probably never know and whether or not he was laughing his way through it, I will never know. I just have to focus on what I DO know – and that is plenty for me to know that God knew what he was doing when he removed him from my life.

To enlightened,

Your therapist’s comment is word for word from a book I read but I can’t remember which one. I started by thinking the Bad Man was a Borderline, then a Narcissist, and then finally a Sociopath.

As far as I know, he did not think this our relationship and all the others following me were a game. He does think he is a victim of psychos. To him, women are psychos when they react to his attacks and fight back. He always played the victim of me. I couldn’t stand it!!! And I also spent hours, weeks, months… okay… at LEAST A YEAR trying to figure out how he was able to work this out in his mind… that he was a victim of ME!?

The Bad Man never asked me for any money although he did file an insurance claim against me when we had a minor fender bender. It was my fault and my car was damaged, his was barely visiably damaged but he did file a claim. It was not a claim that any normal person would file for a car with 175,000 miles on it. He just cashed in and my insurance hit the roof later. It was completely my fault and it was not a drama thing but it would be too hard to draw a diagram here. :o)

The way I see it, there are things about the Bad Man that are very exploitive. Since he was formerly a “missionary” I assume he was very good at raising money for his missions which involved a lot of fun cruising around tropical islands, eating coconuts and things like that.

I don’t think this whole thing is a game for the Bad Man and I also think he doesn’t know why he is mad all the time and why no one can measure up and why his demands on women are unreasonable and why people are so mad at him and ganging up on him and fighting back.. blah blah. I think he truly believes he is a victim of people. And I still think he is a sociopath even if he isn’t laughing.

Donna wrote this essay. It took me awhile to find it again but here is an essay on that very subject… what if they don’t show all the symptoms. In case you haven’t read this one, here it is.

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/10/07/if-someone-has-most-psychopathic-traits-its-reason-enough-to-leave/

Okay, I REALLY hope this goes to the ‘straight or gay’ blog – even though I originally thought I was posting to another blog altogether and totally messed it up 🙂 Anyhoo…

ALOHA TRAVELER…
Thank you for your response. That is exactly how I feel. The guy will NEVER be able to see himself as ‘evil’ in anyway. His brain is on autopilot to fix any thought that could cause him to look at himself in the mirror and not love what he sees. I know he is a liar and the most self-centered human being I have ever run across in my life. But, after almost a year of ruminating and talking to friends and family who know him well, he thought he was in love with me – the ‘affection’, if you will, was real. I was a narcissistic supply (read somewhere that they tend to ‘idealize’ their narcissistic supply – until they no longer fit that bill). I believe he adored me and idealized me until… another story. But the man turned on a dime and vilified me, jut as you said. And Mr. Wondeful couldn’t deal with what he had done. I don’t believe it even took his twisted mind more than 30 seconds to turn himself into the victim. But I am educated and aware enough to understand that it was about him the entire time. My feelings never counted – weren’t even on his radar. I have left out about a novels worth of info that I have learned about this man I called my best friend for 3 years. Sociopath.

Neither straight nor gay – If only I could have read these articles years ago. My X drank for the first 13 years of our marriage and caused me endless debts and trouble. I supported him to get off the drink but found a couple of years later that he was visiting car parks etc. I found this out when he actually took me to one. I refused to take part but he seemed to have a strange facination for men. He had always been heavily into porn. He got very abusive with me, and after testing me a few times he decided that ‘that side of our marriage was over’. I was very ill at this stage and didnt think things through.
I got a transplant and boy did I wake up. He was frequenting places, he had a girlfriend, the house was full of hardporn, and he was drinking again.
He decided to use violence at that stage to convince me he was normal and I was crazy.
I left after 30 years of marriage and have managed to sell the house but he is being very difficult doing things that a normal thinking person wouldnt dream of. He wont clear the house and wont give me the keys to do it.
This site has been a revelation to me and given me the strength to carry on. Thanks everyone Smokey

ok i need help because im dealing with a sociopath who refuses any form of sex/intimacy sleeping together any element of a relationship is gone….and in order to get those things I have to comply with the sociopaths requests and still don’t get them…he lives with me and it’s literally no contact…no touching no kissing nothing…no sleeping together…days with no contact and in order for me to have ‘contact’ with him I have to play this sick horrific game of asking, begging, asking getting rejected, asking…getting yelled at degraded called names…all for asking for a hug..or some physical contact….then it goes on and on…and then he asks me to wear certain thigns or dress a certain way, showr, shave, do this or that…just to get a hug or any form of affection…has anyone heard of this knid of horror before…being the victim of it it is beyond torture….the person is also physically abusive, just abusive in general…cheating having sex with everyone except his ‘gf’ into men def bisexual hits on anything aruond…will do anything….but makes his ‘gf’ jump thru hoops and suffer for any form of anything…

Melanie,

I had gone through something very similar to what you are describing.
For the first few months the s was insatiable sexually, he pressured to have sex all the time, at odd hours even when I had the flu. As soon as we moved in together, he was no longer interested in sex. I tried initiating every few weeks of so, but he would reject it. I felt like I was begging, it was humiliating so I stopped asking.

He would once in a blue moon initiate, but everything had to be on his terms. Laying a certain way, wearing certain things. For instance he liked me more “boyish” to have cropped hair, androgenous clothing. He never made any sounds during sex. He was also very aroused by aputees. He was corresponding with a number of amputee women on line. He even told me that he has offered one of them money. I asked “why” he could not give me a direct answer.

He rolled his eyes and grimaced if I tried to wear dresses, make up or nail polish.
He actually said humiliating things when I tried to wear a summer dress once. Nothing slutty.

He also had these super infatuated relationships with male friends. He idolized them and when they did not live up to his expectations, he discarded them. He was homophobic, but I think he was a latent homosexual, very ashamed and in denial.

When pleaded with him to talk to me and see what we can do about the lack of sex, he would get really angry and say things like ” sex is over-rated”, “things change, relationships change, it cannot be always like a honeymoon” I would feel so angry and frustrated because he never talk to me like a real person, he preached and lectured, even about sex.
The worse thing was is that he would have sex with me after watching cheap porn. Like the kind where women are aneroxic, drugged up and all body parts been through plastic surgery.

Few years after I was discarded I found out that he was seeing someone while we were still together. One of his students of course. They got married. It’s just matter of time before he discards her because she might start questioning him.

melanie:

I responded to your post under the “Sociopaths and Sex” thread.

You said “any element of a relationship is gone.”

That’s your starting place in making the decisions you have to make. When I realized there was no relationship left to save and that all I was to him was a source of supply, I did what I had to do to get rid of him. Or, as I put it “to get rid of a sociopath, become a sociopath.”

In other words, you shut off every human emotion you have towards this creature and view what your relationship solely in terms of supply and demand. If you cut off the supply, you immediately are assuming control. This is a fight for scarce resources, which I suspect are all under YOUR control.

My question to you is what do you supply him? With me, I was a personal ATM, social director and lawyer who provided social respectability. At the end, I took back my power because I decided I wanted my resources FOR MYSELF, and I was the one who was going to end it.

Don’t think he’ll give up easily — unless he has already lined up your replacement. That said, these creatures are infamous for running the “PITY PLAY.” They appeal to our pity. So, you’ve got to turn off your emotions and realize one thing — EVERYTHING IS A LIE WITH HIM. He has no feelings. So, you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do, no apologies.

melanie:

Meant say I responded earlier to your post under “Me Me Me…”

Ellejay:

Your story is exactly my story – I was with this S for 3 years, the sex was crazy, nothing was ever good enough for my S. He would go on craiglist have my picture out there – talk to couples and pretend as it was me.

It was easy for him to tell me what he wanted sexually because it was his fantasy. I fell for it more times than i count. Each time, thinking (after i do this, he is really going to love me, he wont ask me to do anything crazy now!) nope, nothing was ever good enuf.

he would tell me i was boring, when i would be at work, (he had nothing to do, but pretend like he was a recording artist making music) he would ask me to send him pictures of my body parts or ask me to tell him one of my wildest fantasies..now i realize he was showing all this stuff to his buddies.

he has videos of me! I’ve always considered myself an upstanding citizen (now, i feel like nothing but a broke WHORE). He has managed to manupilate me out of $30,000 , which he would always say he was going to pay me back (and i BELIEVED IT)

When, we finally were on the brink of breaking up, he let me see him do the unthinkable with another man (at this point, i was really thinking, we were going to bond now) since i saw this act – the part that gets me is that i still wanted to be with him after i saw him do this. (SICK). HOW ABOUT the next day he acted as if it never happened. Talked to me like it was another day in the park.

This is when i knew i had to break up with him. Finally, as i mentioned about i gave him $30,000 over a 3 year period, he came in my house (took everything he had ever given me) perfume, pocket books, worn shoes and sneakers, jewelry, and then to make matters worst, HE SPAT IN MY FACE.

Needless, to say, i havent seen him since, he did send me an email requesting me to meet up with him, to have his cell phone (which i was paying for, for the past 3 years) transfered to his name. not even caring that he spat in my face, and took everything he ever bought for me, while he walks away with $30,000 of mine that he owes me. i am broke, it sends me chills that i thought he was the man for me.

i never responded to him, i changed my cell phone, home phone, email address at work. complete NO CONTACT (its been 5 months) and i havent heard from him. His mom did call me to let me know that “my son said he has no hatred in his heart towards you”

I am like – you got to be kiddn me – He has a new victim now, and i hope he doesnt do to her what he has done to me:
finacially F#$! me, brain F#$!, sexually disgraced me and all of this is on video which he threatened he would show everybody where we live.

3 somes, 1 on 1s, his brother. I am not liking myself at all – why because i knew better, i wasnt raised like this and now, i have to get my mental, financances back and hope he doesnt disgrace me with the videos.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

hedidn’t breakme: I don’t know if you are new (i have only been here a while), but i read through your whole post and felt not one ounce of judgment or disgust about YOU.

lots of us have been through similar. please keep reading and posting.

and in case you ARe new – welcome. it will be okay.

all best,
one step

one/joy_step_at_a_time

my spath was a woman pretending to be a slight young bi submissive on a fetish website (boy #1); and a young gay man (who slept with boy number #1 str8 female friend) in love with boy #1); a histironic boy wanting boy #2; the incetuous sister of boy #1 who had sex with him from 8 or so, till 22; blah blah blah…it went ON AND ON AND on………………………

ummm…. sex… I had little to no sexual attraction to mine.. which was strange because I thought that he was handsome, physically fit and etc..

but his kiss was like a lizard, his touch like a claw and the skin on his hands flelt rough… I asked that he put cream on his hands.. and he did at times.. but he didn’t like the feel of lotion on his hands..

The deal is.. actually, we only had sex twice in a year.. it was the strangest relationship that I have ever had.. he spent the first three weeks trying to get me into bed.. then on NYE when we’d had champagne and I felt beautiful, ready and wearing a great looking nightgown.. we fooled around but he didn’t go for it.. I felt frustrated and confused and the next morning I told him that I didn’t want a relationship without sex…He said that it was just the night or whatever so … I let it go.. but then I wasn’t interested… something felt off.. then his mother got ill and on and on.. we would snuggle and hold hands.. but I really didn’t like that all that much.. he would attempt and I would pull away.. I began to think that something was broken with me.. yet I had had a three month hot and heavy interlude with an old friend previoulsy to meeting this man and nothing was broken..

I just wasn’t sexually attracted to him… although I found him hansome and he did have some effeminate traits.. not much but a tad.. and he had told me that one of his wife’s really liked anal sex.. the one that molested her children.. all that info turned me OFF… then another time he tried and he told me that he felt one of my old boyfriends inthe room..and asked if I was thinking about him..
we did have sex two times and it was okay.. not hot.. not really anything.. just okay….

so I always wondered..
a girl friend told me that it was my body rejecting him.. because I knew … felt that something was really off…
And it was so off… we were engaged.. he told me constantly how beautiful that Iam .. that he loves my body.. and it was all nothing..
a couple of nights when I showed and interest.. he literally had a frightened look on his face…

so what was all this about ?????????
any ideas….???

also, he walked around nude alot.. and was well-endowed.. and when he would brush his teeth etc.. he would put one leg up on the counter while nude..

I have nothing against nudity.. but he was like an exhibitionist..

then later he told me that the reason that he didn’t make love to me that first NYE was because I was drunk.. I wasn’t drunk it was NYE and we had champage..

Now, there were other times that he tried to have sex, like in the morning and I wasn’t in the mood..

it as all just strange.. very strange.. what was it about?

Style:
It seems like he kept you on the ’emotional’ hook, and was manipulating in the bedroom….
Telling stories of other women (wifes) likes and dislikes…..
etc….WTF????
Another way of allowing US to take responsibility for their issues…..(you thinking you were broken)….
I did the same thing….
I would ask the S ‘what’ it was he wanted….’how’ he wanted me yada yada trying to figure out what the hell it was I WAS doing WRONG.(It had to be ME)….his only answer was….I just want to make love to you…..Oh, sure this sounds reasonable,…..but he NEVER showed ANY emotion….never gave me any indication he wasn’t counting sheep when we ‘made love’…..or thinking about the dog poop on the deck or the rotting fruit in the fruit bowl. Or the MAN he was doing…….
Helloooooo ERIN!

I think mentioning the anal sex thing may have been very telling….(I don’t know)….sex twice in a year is NOT a healthy sex life…..more of a ….Okay…..gotta keep the front up and give it to her! Gotta keep her ‘engaged’ with me…..and he knew full well…..2 times in a year was NOT going to keep you around for a lifetime….yet he still proposed?
Sounds like you may have been his front (like I was)…..to keep up the hetro front????
I’m not a sexpert…..and I’m not into anal sex……(not judging those who are)…..but I think…..If I have ‘other’ parts….use them! And him sharing his wives intersts is just wierd….and maybe his way of hoping you’ll play along. Maybe to make him feel ‘at home’ with his like of men?
Just a guess……

I have met men I am just not attracted to…..may be very nice….warm cuddly and all that……just can’t see myself having sex with them……
Maybe it’s just my hangup……as it’s been a few years!
🙁

Control….

He knew when you would ‘reject’ him and aproached you then in the morning…..Safe time for him…..and he probably complained that YOU rejected him.

Brushing his teeth while admiring his piece……well…..there is some ego for ya…..
He also had something in his mouth while admiring himself…..meaning there?

Also the NYE excuse…..what a martyr…..he wanted to appear to be the gentleman who couldn’t possibly take advantage of a lady while she was drinking…..

I say….gay man in hiding…..

EB… okay.. but I think I asked or we were talking about sex.. likes and dislikes.. it wasn’t just like he volunteered it.. about the anal sex.. with the ex.. and aonther thing he is very large.. I mean anally.. yikes..And am not into anal.. and told him that up front… not that I am judging.. it is just not what I would ever have an interest in…

It was just the weirdest..

He told me that he didn’t want to think that I had to get drunk to have sex with him.. Good grief.. it was NYE.. at times, he got really up set and even cried that we didn’t have sex..

In anger once, I told him that he kissed like a lizard and I tried to teach him how to kiss..(I’ve been told that I am good at it) I just never have been with a man that I was so not sexually attracted to…

And he would roll his underwear up around his waist to make it tighter.. you know kind of like a ballet dancer.. he is really in shape..

thanks for your input.. it was all just so weird.. and he also told me that with his first wife in college that they made love alll the time.. and she was a nerdy looking little thing…

Again.. this was the wierdest relationship of my life…

sex is important to me.. and he was attractive and he was the biggest turn off….
So you think some ‘gay’ tendancies.. controlling… denying it when I wanted it and wanting it when he knew I wouldn’t be that into it..
one night I was flirting with him… thinking this is ridicluous that we dont have sex.. and I was all clean and out of the shower and he suggested that we go make desert…

something was bizarre.. maybe he wasn’t attracted to me either.. although, he couldn’t keep his hands off of me.. and once in a movie theatre lobby he touched my breast… and I was so offended that I rheamed him out… according to him, he loved my breast…
Geez… I hope I am through this deal thinking back soon…

OMG….the s always told me I had the nicest breasts….He LOVED MY BOOBS….
Now….what good did this get me?
Not sure??? I guess he never encouraged me to get P. surgery……. Upside!

Now don’t go down the maybe he wasn’t attracted to me either road…..
Again….the movie theatre….what, are you supposed to drop your drawers and do him in the lobby???
I bet if you tried to fondle him in the movie, he would tell you how inappropriate you were being……BETCHA!!!

When two people are in a loving relationship…..(NOT that I’m the authority on this…haha)…but I believe sex is a big part of it……communications and all……likes, dislikes…..
Not comparasons.
If you don’t like or enjoy something your partner is doing, or the style etc….aproach it in a nice loving manner (maybe not compare him to a lizard hahahaha)….but obviously by this time….you were fed up with his lack of everything and you were frustrated!
I finally told the S plain out…..YOU SUCK in bed!!!!! Your selfish and
YOU SUCK at oral, and you have a small penis AND BAD BREATH!
Now…that’s compassion on my part huh???

I think your gut is somethng you need to listen to! ALWAYS….no matter if he was gay or repulsed by you……
WTF…..if he wasn’t attracted to you…..why did he propose?

The s was good looking too……but now I see pic of him and I”M REPULSED……
You saw beneath the good looks, the nice figure etc…..there was something there you WERE NOT thinking was so fine!

I remember way back……I must have been 15…..each ‘date’ we went out on had to end with a park in a neighborhood…..and sex or oral demands…. I HATED IT! I HATED where/when and the demands…..
One time…..I was a passenger and he was on top of me in the seat…..he shoved himself into the ‘wrong hole’……I WAS IN SO MUCH AGONY!!!! Shocked the hell out of me…..I jumped out from under him….reflex and cried……AYAYAYIEY.
Holy shit…..I was sitting in a car seat….WTF….did he think he had a bendable penis for going around corners or my ass would comply?
Like trying to give birth to a baby while hanging upside down on a rope???? PUSH….PUSH….
YEAH….NOT!
That was the end of that……
He got mad and drove me home……WTF?????
I felt so much shame…..
Isn’t that something that should be consented to or discussed…..like hey….I’m heading south….prepare yourself for landing?????

THAT WAS A CONTROL MOVE!!!!

and I spent another 26 years with the idiot!

Thank god you didn’t marry the S!!!!

Ah Erin – your expressions are priceless!

WTF”.did he think he had a bendable penis for going around corners or my ass would comply?

The P ex had a fascination with anal as well – he tentatively tried to broach it a couple of times and I shut him well down – NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NEVER!! I then asked him
“Why would you want to have sex like a gay man when you’re straight? Is there something you’re not telling me?”
He shut up after that.

I am quite confused about the whole straight anal thing – some women purport to love it, but I wonder if they’re just trying to please the man or seem sexually adventurous? I don’t get it. I know it is driven by porn – where anything goes, but why do they automatically think porn is real life? Definitely it should be discussed and mutually agreed to and prepared for properly by both – my ex ‘slipped’ a couple of times and almost … well you know. Good job I used to be an athlete and can move my hips remarkably quickly!

He also was soooo soo into my breasts. Pathetic – gag. Early in the relationship he would just come up behind me and start groping. So soon I started doing it back to him, but roughly and down there. He didn’t like it – especially when trying to watch tv or read a book lol

He also had bad breath … yuck. I used to make him brush his teeth and suck a mint before kissing him. That really annoyed him – but his breath stunk – such a turn off. Demands all the time for sex too – I eventually set him straight – told him he was welcome to wank or look at porn or do whatever he wanted but I would not be fulfilling his every desire – he would have wanted it several times a day – yuck!

Style – he also walked around naked a lot – not the greatest body in the world but he loved to flaunt it. I remember he had spots on his back and I thought to myself ‘I would never be that open if I had that particular flaw’ I have different flaws and am quite modest, but I don’t ‘let it all hang out’. Jeez!

I guess it’s for some…..just not me…Maybe my ‘intro’ was to blame for not allowing it to happen again…..28 years and HE NEVER MENTIONED IT AGAIN!!!!! NEVER!!
I guess he found another ass to take care of…..unbeknownst to me.
I have read about it and how women feel about it….some ADORE it…..some feel like us….NOT A CHANCE!
I don’t know….to each her own…..just stay out of mine!

I was talking to my eldest recently about sex….and the porn thing…..It’s really kinda sad how readily available porn is to the kids………..they have NO CLUE about the meaning of sex, the intimacy involved and how ‘beautiful’ it can be. It’s cheap to the teens, and this frightens me.
My sons ex gf was skiing with him over break….she decieded to tell him about all the boys she’s given oral to since him…..and let him know how much she really likes it……
I said….you’ve got to be kidding me…..SHE is telling you this? I said….was this an invitiation to go off into the forest for a quick oral session? Can you imagine WHERE her mouth has been….
He went on to tell me about her telling him how she is now into black men and why…..and her anal experience…..
I was shocked…..then he said….yeah mom…and she is claiming she’s still a virgin!!!!!
I said….that is a stretch…..he said, well…technically she’s never had sex…..I said….yeah….just like your dads statement about the car not running….(leading one to assume it’s broken down) NO….HE MEANT THE KEY WASN”T IN IGNITION……
So….if she’s not had VAGINAL sex….then the car’s not running……
I reminded him…..sex is sex is sex is sex……even if you screw a sheep.
Why is it the kids want to experience so much, yet keep the claim of virginity?????
It all so very sad…..
I tell my kids….honor yourself…if you give it all away now….there will be nothing special to honor your spouse with later…..then I ASSURE you……you’ll never have a happy marriage…..because real life isn’t like a porn!!!

I agree…..I’ve never had an sex encounter like they show on the porn sites…..and I never felt that I should be duplicating anything I’ve ever seen…..for one….I don’t think I could achieve any of the contorted postiions…..SO….is there something wrong with me???? I think NOT!
I have no desires to be with a woman, sex or kissing…..I have no desires to watch my man with another man OR woman ever…..or to have a room full of people all wrapped up like mating snakes in a sex ritual….
I guess my fears would take over…..damn…who got me pregnant, what are they thinking of my body compared to xx….do they want my V or his Ass, her ear or my armpit…..where did this VD come from…..So what….do you show up at the next encounter asking all these questions?

I’m not a prude….I guess in my opinion….it’s all just gotten way out of hand……
But….talk to me when I find a man to have sex with…..I may come back with a whole different sex story!!!
🙂
Doubt it……

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