Many women have written to Lovefraud about husbands who they’ve come to believe are sociopaths. They were astounded to discover that, not only was the husband cheating, but he was having sex with men.
Lovefraud reader eyeswideshut writes about this in a recent comment to the post, After he’s gone: looking at the sociopath through open eyes. She asks:
Now that I know he is also gay, is sociopathic tendency in married gay men not common as well? When I read the stories of the women in the book (“Straight Wives”), many of the men sound like sociopaths as well. Have you studied this phenomenon? Is it possible that gay men who choose to live the lie of married life are likely also socios?
To this, another Lovefraud reader, Leslie, commented:
On the third extended date I had with the SP, I turned to him one night, after we’d been together, and said, “Have you been with men?” Something in the way he’d made love made me think he had. He stared at the window and said in a monotone, “I have never made love to a man.” It was the same monotone he used to deny that he was living with a woman when I asked him that a year later. He was. I don’t have hard proof, but I know the guy had had sex with men.
Then alohatraveler commented:
I have heard from another victim of my sociopath that he was starting to get more “experimental” when she knew him. She knew him after me. He was expressing an interest in having sex with a man, but of course, with a woman present, because he was “not gay.” We both also saw an ad that he posted looking for sex with a transsexual. Then he placed an ad where he wanted a traditional type of woman.
“Not a gay bone in my body”
Shortly after I met my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, he proclaimed to me, “There’s not a gay bone in my body.” I had no reason to doubt him. But when I left him after two-and-a-half years, I learned a lot about his sexual activities:
- He had sex with at least six other women during our relationship.
- He was heavily into Internet porn.
- He solicited gay male prostitutes.
- He tried to arrange threesomes and looked for swinging couples.
In short, he wanted sexual thrills. The more different kinds of thrills, the better. I’m lucky I didn’t get a serious disease.
Screw anyone
Sociopaths are hard-wired for sex. They have an excessive need for stimulation, excitement and sensation. They also have no fear and no inhibitions. From a sexual perspective, that means a voracious appetite and anything goes.
Dr. Liane Leedom writes that sociopaths only want two things. One of them is power. The other is sex.
So when it comes to sexual orientation, I believe sociopaths are neither straight nor gay. In short, they’ll screw anyone.
Lovefraud has heard from gay individuals—men and women—who were involved in gay relationships with sociopaths. I asked several of them if they thought the sociopath was actually gay. They all agreed with my theory and said the sociopath was not gay.
Sex with an agenda
This does not mean, however, that sociopaths are out of control. On the contrary, to them, sex, and sexual orientation, is just something to be used in order to achieve their objective, whatever that is.
Perhaps the most egregious example of this is the case of James McGreevey, the former governor of New Jersey. McGreevey, you may recall, resigned from office after proclaiming in a news conference that he was a “gay American.”
The truth was that his political career was imploding under a series of scandals. As I wrote in a review of the book written by McGreevey’s wife, I believe the former governor played the gay card because it was the best way to spin his political collapse.
Sociopaths use people for sex, and use sex to get what they want. Anybody who suits their agenda will do.
If it suits their agenda to be married with children, then that’s what they’ll do. But if sociopaths indulge in same-sex relationships, in my opinion, it’s because they’re sociopaths, not gay.
Let me add a few things that I have observed in my 55 years of living.
First of all, I have had several good friends who were/are homosexuals (male and female). I don’t look at them through the eyes of “what is your sexual orientation” and I hope that no one looks at me that way. After all, sexual orientation is really a private matter. I don’t see any need whatsoever for there to be “gay bars” or “gay hang-outs” since any bar, restaurant, hang-out or whatever ought to be for human beings.
Second, I have read that there are several “causes” for homosexuality and each cause can be a strong factor in the type of person one is dealing with. One cause can be that genes have been activated (or not) due to gestational environment, birth order, diet of the mother, maybe EM waves on the planet, or whatever. In short, the body is of one type and the “gender triggers” are of another type. In such a case If the person decides to choose to go the way that the body is constructed and deny the “gender triggers” there might be a lot of misery.
And then, there is the more frightening form of pseudo-homosexuality Donna has described that IS related to psychopathy. It is not homosexuality for any of the ordinary reasons but simply emerges from a mind-set that sees sex as a physical appetite like any other and will use whatever or whoever is present to satisfy those urges. The “partner” is never anything other than an object to be assimilated in some way; to have power over them as Donna notes.
I also find her reference to James McGreevey fascinating. How many of you have noticed the extraordinary number of reports of so-called homosexual scandals among members and friends of the Bush Administration?
How many of you remember the 1989 Washington Times expose of the homosexual and pedophiliac prostitution scandal that “snared” Reagan and George H. W. Bush? It was hushed up pretty quickly, but it was a momentary insight into what goes on “at the top” and what kind of people are making our laws for us. Talk about setting the fox to watch the henhouse!
When you look at a collection of these articles that have emerged time and again, only to be dropped like hot potatoes, it seems that our “leaders,” people like Bush, Cheney, Rove, and so on – even if they live lives as declared heterosexuals – are, by nature this particular kind of homosexual, one that utilizes homosexuality as a means to dominate other men. My guess is that this was the real background to the much vaunted “Greek Pederasty”. It wasn’t about “loving little boys” it was about corrupting and controlling them a la Ponerology – they were objects, helpless and impressionable ones at that.
There is a close relationship between this type of psychopathic homosexuality and pedophilia because, as I said, it is about dominance, control, subjecting those weaker than oneself. It is this kind of homosexuality that has gotten the most press and is the reason that there is an almost knee-jerk reaction to homosexuality among many fundamentalist types – you know, the “moral majority.” But in a very bizarre twist, this same Moral Majority supports and endorses the very psychopaths that are the type of “power homosexual” that they fear and detest! How do they get away with it? Well, we all know the answer because we know about psychopaths and how they get away with it on a personal level.
If you are using someone else to make you feel good and what makes you feel good is dominance and control, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, you are abusing the creative energy of sex.
We also notice that the latter kind of psychopathic homosexuality is also quite often connected to things like B & D and strange sexual practices that have nothing to do with deep, spiritual love and honoring and holding up to spiritual cleanliness and divinity the flesh of another person.
Pornography is also related to the abuse of sex, whether homosexual or heterosexual. By it’s very nature, it promotes “wishful thinking” and fantasy which is the trap that victims of psychopaths always fall into. It also objectifies another human being.
For the most part, I have observed that people who are “into” pornography wouldn’t know what to do with a real person if there was one there. Those that have relationships and still seek porn are even sadder because it suggests that their relationship with a real human being is so poverty stricken that they still must seek to live in a realm of “wishful thinking” and try to drag someone else in there to help them prop up their illusions (or delusions).
But then, American culture is schizophrenic about sex in general. Sex is used to sell everything, but god forbid if women should dress attractively and celebrate their sexuality because then they are sluts (or targets for psychopaths). Viagra and other treatments to have more sex, better sex, longer sex and so on are so common that it makes you wonder if society has gone mad: condemning on one hand what they advertise as being most desirable on the other hand. But that is the trick of the psychopath’s trade, isn’t it? Psychopaths in power, that is.
So, you have this schizophrenia going on about sex, and people start wondering if they really are missing out on something, and the psychopath comes along and whispers sweet nothings (literally) in your ear and what’s a person to do?
The problem seems to be with self-perception within and as measured against a social convention. The latter most certainly has been propagated in insidious ways.
In a book entitled “Sex In History” by G.R. Taylor (1954), he proposes that there are two basic kinds of people. I don’t necessarily agree with his ideas as he has framed them, but he did come up with an interesting list that I would like to share here.
Patrist – Father-Identifiers
1. Restrictive attitude to sex
2. Limitation of freedom for women
3. Women seen as inferior, sinful
4. Chastity more valued than welfare
5. Politically authoritarian
6. Conservative: against innovation
7. Distrust of research, inquiry
8. Inhibition, fear of spontaneity
9. Deep fear of homosexuality
10. Sex differences maximised (dress)
11. Asceticism, fear of pleasure
12. Father religion – “Thou shall not break the Ten Commandments or you will burn in hell”
Matrist Mother-Identifiers
1. Permissive attitude to sex
2. Freedom for women
3. Women accorded high status
4. Welfare more valued than chastity.
5. Politically Democratic
6. Progressive: revolutionary
7. No distrust of research
8. Spontaneity: exhibition
9. Deep fear of incest (pedophilia)
10. Sex differences minimised
11. Hedonism, pleasure welcomed
12. Mother religion – “God is all loving, all forgiving and all understanding”
Now, I don’t necessarily agree with all the ways Taylor has divided the issue, it’s just a platform to think about things. What occurs to me is that he has failed to take into account psychopathy and its influence on human society. I don’t think that matristic societies are “sexually permissive,” though they are probably more understanding of variations in individuals.
In our present mostly patristic society, there is an awful lot of homophobia being promoted. What is bizarre about it is that the psychopaths at the top of the heap that use this as a “fear prod” are so often exposed as having those tendencies in the psychopathic way, certainly not as a normal variation. At the same time, there are a lot of sex based taboos being promulgated by these same “moral majority” types, conservatives, whatever you want to call them, and again and again one or another of their membership is exposed as doing the very things they rail against!
Sounds psychopathic to me.
Whewee–
Take a break from this blog for awhile, and then see the discussions you’ve missed!
I’ve posted here many times. I am gay and my Psycho was too.
Donna, I have to say, that although there may be many psychos out there who will “screw anything,” I think there are also some who still have preferences.
Mine had come out of the closet when he was 31 (according to him). When I knew him he had a rainbow flag bumper sticker on his car’s back bumper. So, I don’t think he was pursuing women. The rainbow sticker would have been a rather obvious sign!
He had bisexual artwork on his walls (subject matter, I mean) but I think he used that to seduce guys who were bi or thought they were straight.
His other rooms were filled with framed photos of men…and nothing else.
He had a religious upbringing by fundamentalists and his sexuality had been repressed. And he had been with women earlier on before he came out.
He was definitely into the power/sex thing, but he clearly was much more, if not exclusively at this middle aged time of his life, into guys.
He was an ex-con, as I have mentioned in earlier posts.
Sure, he could have been fooling me, just like so many of the people on this site concerning secret lives he was living. I’ll give you that. But, the evidence and the social activities he was involved in were all-male bonding groups.
Even if he was seeing women that I didn’t know about, I think he was much more if not exclusively into men (or else he would have had to change every single photo hanging on the walls of his house and the bumper sticker on his car)
I think that there are lots of gray areas in this psycho/sexuality topic.
Donna, your statement about sociopaths indulging in same-sex relationships because they are sociopaths and not because they are actually gay, is likely true for only a certain category of these people (perhaps a large category), but I don’t agree that it is true for all sociopaths.
laman2,
I think the underlying point is that in some way, Sociopaths are often indescriminate in their sexual encounters or in their attention getting strategies.
And they may adamantly claim they are not into this kind of person or that.. but then later, don’t be surprised whan “that” kind of person is their latest conquest.
These posts were disturbing to me because they hit so close to home. It is very healing to me to be able to put words to all the mixed emotions I have been feeling. My 6 month affair with the S was characterized by a very passionate sexual relationship. Through things he said, I realized that in the past he had used websites to hook up with women for one-night stands, he had gotten an infection from anal sex with a woman, and he admitted to regularly viewing porn on-line. He also told me that another woman that we worked with was confessing all kinds of things to him, like the fact that she and her husband were going to fetish parties, looking for another woman for a threesome. He was in charge of setting up a bachelor party for one of his friends and was going to hire some exotic dancers to hang out with them for the night–he was hoping they could work around the “no touch” rule. After all, he said it was “just touching”. I also knew that he had numerous affairs outside of his marriage. He confessed some of these to his wife and became so “depressed” that he was on disability for 6 weeks. She then made him attend a sexual addiction 12 step program. Just recounting this has made me question myself even more. He told me this stuff! Yet, I still remained involved with him. I was still passionately attracted to him like I could never get enough. This has made me confront my own “broken-ness” –how could an intelligent person choose to be with someone like this? All the sociopaths seem to have this insatiable nature to them–no thrill is ever enough. I always had the feeling, that he metered out his attention in small does to keep stringing me along and keep finding time for his “other interests”. He was always easily bored and would send the most passionate e-mails, then no correspondence for days and days. He could turn it off and on like a switch. One night, when we were at work, he was acting so depressed that many people commented on it. He left early and I called him to make sure he was okay. He said he was on another call. Later in an e-mail, he said he was talking to “a friend” with a problem and it helped him so much to focus on someone else and be helpful! I have questioned my sanity so many times. What was so irresistible about him? He tried to convince me that I was different, that he could tell me anything, that I was so accepting all the while doing heaven knows what. What a fool I’ve been.
distraught: dont feel bad – my experience was just like yours, but for 2 years. When I think back at all the stories of tragedy going on between us, I am shocked at myself for justifying my staying. And I even went back to him several times after horrific cheating, lying or deception. I guess being so deeply involved with what I call a mentally ill person, can make one mentally ill. You dont see straight and you almost start justifying his mistakes for reasons that would normally never fly with you. Mine had all kinds of weird sexual past and suggested at many things with me too, but I wouldnt do it. I think he found time in between seeing me to play out all those other fantasies, which is why he could keep up the good boyfriend role with me. Except of course the times he’d stumble, and Id find out about stuff. I felt a fool too, but realizing they are the fools and we are just a victim of their sickness. This site is great for making you feel more normal. Keep reading 🙂
Distraught-I can relate! I have questioned my own sanity and thought of myself as having sociopathic tendencies because of him. I got to the point of wanting to be or do anything that would keep his interest in me!—Including sexual. Although, even after a year it didnt get to the uncomfortable stuff. And many times I questioned whether he was gay. I was willing to submit to whatever he would want, even suggesting it myself. What was irresistible about him??? I ask the same question. The Sex was Wonderful and I am a sexual person but you cant base a relationship on that alone. He was charming, but only in the begining. He then would give only bits of himself and then became more outwordly nasty and never EVER did a damb thing for ME!! He would Come on strong and pretend and then do his disappearing act. He is gone for good now. But…It is at a point where he has his family and some of my friends thinking I am the crazy one. I have been excluded from parties and people have lost contact with me. I then decided to give my own party. The people he and his family have fooled were once my friends….now they wont respond or they are declining the invite. He walks around town like he is the sane one and I am a psycho! Knowing I can never speak up and no one would understand the web he had me in. The sweet talking, then nasty, then sweet talk, then GREAT SEX, then take my money and run!
And EVERYDAY I ask, “What is wrong with me?!” “Why did I allow this to go this far?” “Could I have done something different that would have changed the outcome?”
Seriously, What is wrong that I am still blogging? He is still Blogging my HEAD!!
change06–isn’t it amazing how they all sound the same! These people can be so intense and so charming in these incredible short bursts that make us do damn near anything for them. Then, after time and distance, we feel used and stupid, only to fall for it again and again. Several weeks ago, he suggested we meet to talk (this is after I had already broken it off)–by the end of the conversation there I was again, kissing him passionately knowing full well, he is a lying, manipulative jerk. I had some e-mail correspondence with him this week (yes, I know I shouldn’t have, looking for closure as if he would actually give it to me) He responded with a ranting e-mail about how he loves me and I will never understand how much and he’s sorry he can’t give me everything I need–that’s just the way he is. He used lots of all caps and desperate words–he even called me to apologize for being so out of control. He said I had him in a desperate emotional state. I sent him a thoughtful answer and of course I haven’t heard another word from him! So much for him being an emotional wreck and desperate to hear from me! I think perhaps he finally realizes that there is no way I would start anything up with him again. Even though I felt extremely sexually attracted to him, the sex was never really amazing–he just had such a charming way about him I kept falling for all the crap. Plus it’s hard for me to stop being the “nice girl” and tell someone to their face that I think they are lying. That’s why Lovefraud keeps telling us “no contact”– I get it now. They get us hooked in a big way, then because they have no real feelings or conscience, it’s easy for them to walk away with no pangs of regret either for a short time–to keep us stewing and obsessing, or forever, if we become too difficult for them to bother with. They just move on to their next easy mark. Findingmyselfagain: I agree with you, I think being with these kinds of people starts affecting our mental state. I could not believe I was capable of getting involved with him like I did–there have been numerous moments where I thought I was going crazy. Glad we can commiserate here!
I think that in some cases – the narcissist or psychopath was probably sexually abused in the past.
Sexual abuse CAN cause psychopathy, homosexuality (obviously not in all cases), sexual identity issues, sexual confusion, sexual addiction, obsessive compulsive disorders, and a sh*tload of other personality disorders and issues.
Isn’t it wonderful the torture humans can put each other through. 🙁
Distraught-Everyone says it seems like we were involved with the same guy! We were, they are all sociopathic!! I know how you feel about being sucked in again. Mine lured me in again and again and again. You are right, when we get too difficult for them or we figure them out its a quick slam of the door. He ended it with me. He stopped calling me or taking any of my calls. I was so wrapped in his ways that I even told him I knew he cheats and didnt care. I also told him that I thought he was a sociopath (even before I knew of this site). He said, “well that is the way I am and I dont care”. He admited he doesnt give a damn about others feelings, cheats, lies etc. but I stuck around taking all the abuse….because I loved him. What I was loving was my own fantasy of the way I thought it could be. The littlest nice thing he would say I would analyze and fit it into my own distorted picture of us. Im not loving myself though and it is hard to get it back.
I PRAY THAT WE “REAL VICTIMS” WILL FINALLY GET THE PEACE OF MIND THAT WE DESPERATELY DESERVE. LIFE IS WAY TOO SHORT TO CONTINUE DEALING WITH SOMEONE ELSE’S PROBLEMS. WE CAN’T BLAME OURSELVES FOR WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US OR OUR CHILDREN, ALL WE CAN DO IS GROW FROM IT, AND MOVE ON TO BECOMING HEALTHIER INDIVIDUALS FOR THE SAKE OF ALL INVOLVED. THESE KIND OF PEOPLE ARE WAY TOO “SICK” FOR US TO EVEN HELP THEM. WE ARE NOT DR. PHIL, AND EVEN IF I WAS… YOU COULDN’T PAY ME ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH A PERSON/ PATIENT LIKE WHAT IS DESCRIBED ON THIS WEBSITE…. SOME PROBLEMS ARE LEFT FOR GOD TO DEAL WITH. EVERY DOG HAS IT’S DAY. A PERSON CAN ONLY GET AWAY WITH HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE FOR OH SO LONG. IT IS UP TO “US” TO TAKE A STAND, AND BECOME REAL SURVIVOR’S OF THE MADNESS. GOD BLESS YOU ALL. YOU ARE MUCH THOUGHT ABOUT IN MY DAILY THOUGHTS, AND PRAYERS AS WELL….DSPOTWELL