When you’re dealing with sociopaths, figuring out what they really want is nearly impossible. Why? Because they keep changing what they want.
When my ex-husband, James Montgomery, moved into my house, I agreed to convert my basement, which I used as a small gym, into an office for him. I put away my gym equipment. I hired builders to install more electric outlets to run his array of computers, televisions and business equipment, which required enclosing the lower part of the walls. Making the improvements, and installing a small bathroom downstairs, cost me $6,000. (He promised to pay me back, but of course he never did.
When Montgomery first moved into the office, he was delighted.
When we had an argument, he complained about being forced to work out of a dark, dank cellar.
Then, when he was trying to butter me up, he was pleased that “Nuffles” (one of his pet names for me) made such a nice office for him.
Later, as our marriage was falling apart, he again bitterly complained about his deplorable working conditions.
Did Montgomery like the office, or not? I have no idea. The whole issue illustrates how sociopaths will say anything, even directly contradicting themselves, depending on their agenda at the moment.
Moving the goal posts
Many Lovefraud readers have described another, more insidious manifestation of changing sociopathic demands the phenomenon of continuously “moving the goal posts.” Here’s how this works:
Sociopaths tell you what they want, which we’ll call “A.” You give them “A” except now they want “B.” You give them “B,” but now they want “C.” This can continue for “D,” “E” and “F.” In fact, it can continue through the entire alphabet, and then through the entire Greek alphabet. Each time, sociopaths insist that this will make them happy.
One target of a sociopath used a different metaphor to describe this behavior “moving the line in the sand.” This person said:
Moving the line in the sand is a red flag. It serves many purposes. It damages the target. But it also grooms, tests and weakens the target. Plus, the target commits and gets deeper and deeper to recoup the loss (remember we talked about recouping the loss.)  Because it is used to test the target, I think it is an important red flag to look out for.
The target finds himself/herself tolerating more and more and doing more and more and the spath does less and less and needs/wants /implicitly demands/expects more and more. Sometimes its from an overt agreement, sometimes its from implicit agreements that the line gets moved.
Off balance
What happens to you as they keep changing the rules? You are totally off balance. You can’t figure out how to treat them, or how to be around them, because you keep getting mixed signals.
Sociopaths then make matters worse by demeaning you for not doing what they want. You try to explain that you did what they wanted previously, but now they want something different. The sociopaths vociferously deny that they ever told you anything different, and insist that they always wanted what they recently demanded and that you misunderstood them.
Sociopaths are so convincing that you begin to wonder if you did, indeed, misunderstand them, and if you’re losing your mind.
Moving the goal posts is a form of gaslighting. It messes with your sense of reality.
Empty inside
Why do sociopaths do this? Why do they keep moving the goal posts?
I think the main reason is that sociopaths are not fully formed human beings they’re empty shells. They have no core personality, no inner fiber, no guiding purpose. Their desires are not based on stable objectives, but passing fancies. They make demands according to whatever they feel like doing in the moment,
Plus they get bored easily. As soon as they tire of one form of entertainment, they want another.
A key question is, do sociopaths do this intentionally? Given that some sociopaths actively try to crush their targets, I certainly think it’s possible.
What do you think? Did you experience sociopaths who kept moving the goal posts? If so, were they clueless or doing it in purpose?
Donna,
What an excellent article!Yes,I experienced this form of gaslighting;it is what made me feel like I was losing my mind. I have always felt it was intentional!He usually managed to ACT clueless…which is what made me question my thinking for a long time.It was only after a long time that I finally figured out that HE KNEW ME and that he was TESTING ME to see how far he could push me!
mThanks for this very thought provoking article Donna. The goal shifting is indeed crazy making and sets up a dynamic in which we are doomed to fail the test of whether we are sufficiently perfect to deserve their “love”. A book I recently read, Men Who Hate Women..by Susan Forward compared these relationships with abusers as like being forced to prepare for an exam each week set by the abuser that you knew you were going to fail.
In the beginning of my history with my abuser, the goal posts appeared fixed. He wanted an intelligent ” intellectual” who loved travel gastronomy and took pride in her home. Fast forward a few months. He enjoyed ” travel” to self catering apartments near his home town where he expected each meal to be cooked by me and all cleaning to be done by me. I was not permitted to read for more than 15, 20 minutes or he would incessantly interrupt me or express irritation that he was not the centre of my attention.
In essence, he wanted me to have a public veneer which would reflect well on him, e.g. Be well educated, work in academia, be trilingual etc whilst being a submissive provider of domestic and sexual services at home. So that was my experience of goal shifting. He wanted me to have, like him, essentially two entirely different identities. One for public show one for private abuse.
Tea,
Oh My!You nailed it exactly as far as expectations regarding perfection in housecleaning,foods he wanted,wanting to be the center of attention and interruption of anything I did for myself!!!
Tea Light, it is as if you described my situation; wants a different veneer for me for public consumption and a submissive domestic animal at home willing to sacrifice her professional ambitions to uphold only his and surprisingly also for sex at all times despite the abuse …and yes, getting irritated and disturbing me repeatedly if I was working…and not making him the centre of my world… even if I did the latter, there would be SOME argument or grouse anyway, we’d NEVER be at peace with each other… we’d still be fighting over NOTHING at all…or he’d be staring at the juvenile shows on TV or working hard himself (but THAT was sacrosanct you see) and still I was manipulated into marriage..
Donna,
It’s so affirming to read about your experiences with Montgomery because I relate them to my experiences. It’s a light bulb going off in my head, “ah ha, that’s what that was”.
The ex changed the goal posts but it was very subtle. I think I must have been really dense or had bad boundaries because now it makes sense. I don’t know how I put up with it for so long, for 20 years.
One example of moving the goal posts was our home. We moved from Maryland to Minnesota and stayed in a rental while our house was under construction. He didn’t participate in much of the planning except to comment on one or two things. I loved the planning and picking out carpet, etc. so I wasn’t too upset. His was of dealing with anything domestic was to let me handle it anyway.
The house turned out to be just as I had imagined and I loved it. I thought he did too. Then he’d make comments, out of the blue, about why we built a house so big. He’d make negative comments about driving home and seeing a dirt pile (it was a new neighborhood). I felt like I was to blame for the bad decision of building the house. All his comments were subtle, but he was never to blame.
When I finally was done with the marriage, he talked about how great our home was and how I did such a great job decorating and planning it. Wow, it was the first compliment he ever gave me regarding our home. He wouldn’t move out until I was ready to move out, then he finally moved out.
I know this sounds minor, (believe me, there were other major abuses of me and the kids), but it’s an example of moving the goal posts. It’s nice to finally be able to label it and understand it. They do it because they can and I believe they like to keep us confused. They love to manipulate and it’s another example of them manipulating us.
I have been thinking about this even before reading this article since yesterday. My pseudo wife engaged me in a conversation yesterday. She just needed an audience to share how she had to step in and resolve a debate between 2 shoppers. Maybe I’m getting better at this or just paying closer attention but by asking a couple questions very casually and listening to her responses I picked up on something. Yes I saw the lines shifting and was very aware that she needed to keep a certain amount of fluidity or elasticity to the facts surrounding the encounter. I know this sounds ambiguous or confusing and I apologize for that. Maybe I’ll be able to explain that part better another time ? What I am beginning to realize is that she exploits the ambiguity. It is the small often times left out details that provide a facile mind a route to take you to Totallyscrewyouoverville. I have always thought it was bizarre how she would leave pieces out and even my listening closely and being vested in the conversation enough to ask her questions to clarify would be criticized as clearly anyone else would be able to know exactly what she meant. I think this is probably a large part of how she is establishing herself as a dominant influence in our local region. By subtly deceiving, and manipulating through this technique and many others she has in her big ol bag of evil, others gradually are conditioned to defer to her. They figure out ( see are deceived and manipulated ) that she is just a bit quicker and sharper than most. How admirable. What ?!
4light2shine,
O how they love audiences! An audience could transform my husband from a bored,”depressed” man who did nothing but look at the wall,to an articulate,bright and charming,charismatic man! Blow me away!
Hi Blossom. Funny, you would think having such a lofty view of their thoughts and opinions that they would be content and happy in their introspection, but no. They need an audience. Ok so somebody pull me back if I’m getting too far out here. Here goes. Don’t be afraid. I haven’t even said it yet. Lol. It seems to me that evil cannot exist in a vacuum. Eurica ! Without someone to share, to perpetrate their scheme upon, to deceive, to use as a pawn, or whatever else a perverse mind can come up with, it is only an empty musing. To bring badness to fruition they need us as victims, as allies, as pawns, and sometimes just as an audience.
4light2shine,
As in Eureka vacumn?! Lol! Did you know that the original word used for “actor” and “hypocrite” is the same?! Coincidence?!
Blossom I in fact did not know that. Fascinating.( in Spock’s voice ) Yea I’m sure it’s just a coincidence.
I always knew there was some kind of link between spath’s disorder and his “boredom” and “depression”.I have gotten such an education here at Lovefraud!I love to read the articles in the archives whenever I have the time;and have actually been able to compile a profile of spath!Many of my favorite articles are by Steve Becker LCSW.The one I read today is,”Boredom and the sociopath”.
How about this from the Susan Forward book 4light, “..for many (narcissists/sociopaths/ borderlines) facts are like clay, to be moulded and shaped to justify their moods and needs at that moment”. Sounds like your faux wife.
Wow Tea, right on the money there. This thread is on fire today. So many interesting comments. Obviously another great article. Thanks Donna.
Does pseudowife go in for denial and blame shifting too 4 light? Plus are you allowed to ” say ouch” when she hurts you or does saying ouch meet with accusations you’re weak/ pathetic etc? All horrible horrible control and gaslighting mainstays.
Yes Tea, all of the above. There are no depths to which she will not sink,or rather dive athletically to. I actually had her figured out years ago right out of the gate you could say. I mean right after the wedding, and I mean figured out as far as Knowing I had made a huge mistake and that she was a liar, no ifs ands or buts about it. What Really has done the damage to me are the paramouric alliances, the proxies, false comforters, and the subtle calumny, and mendacious sweet poison that she uses to spike whatever recipe she feels will delight her eager guests. The community gaslighting has been absolutely devastating, and has actually almost completely destroyed my value system which I’m sure was her goal. Wow. And no, when someone says how are you today ?, I don’t immediately rip into a tangent about psychopathic mind control. People might think I was weird or something. Sheesh. Take it down about thirty notches dude. Lets have a brewsky ( that’s pint Tea Light) !
Tea,
And their meanness;their stubborness is like hard dried out clay that needs to be thrown out…nothing else can be done with it!
Yeah 4light dude, like, take it down about forty notches and chillax. So the wife’s a sociopath. No biggie. (Sorry. Pretending to be one of aforementioned chaps.)
Yea Tea my real friends and my family still get a taste of my sarcasm and humor which helps me see there’s still a big part of the old me left. I know you get it but sometimes I have to remind myself. Glad I can let my Hare down up here on this psycho site.
Hare! Not hair. Nice. Lol.
Donna,
Thank you for writing this article.
Of all the things that I had gone through with my ex, the gaslighting was and sometimes still is the most difficult for me to comprehend. About four months into our relationship he started changing the goal. When I would question the details of his goal he would tell me he had told me things had changed. When in reality he had not. That is when I started to question my sanity.
Was this done on purpose? For my ex, it was. He was crafting his skills on me until his next victim was groomed and ready to him to make his move on them. The ex continued on with the goal changing until he no longer had a use for me (financially and mentally broke).
During counseling, I had asked my counselor and others in the business about gas lighting. I had to explain what it was to them. Why is there not more known about it?
Jules, hope this helps answer your question…
I was once doing a group for men who had been mandated to get “Anger Management” classes. One guy actually had the audacity to say that his past therapist had told him that the reason he had a hard time communicating with his wife is because he did such “higher level thinking” and his wife was not able to keep up!!!! Needless to say we did a lot of hands on anger management when he was called on this!! Therapists ( licensed) know. The issue is that the disordered LIE. Evaluating that dynamic may take a little time but it does manifest itself in the therapist’s office….
Hi Imara. Always good to hear from you. I had forgotten this is what you do for a living. Very kind of you to check in here and help us with a little nudge in the right direction. I was hoping someone would step in to address Jules question and bam there you were. Thanks
Jules hello. Agreed. The attack on our minds is the most difficult part, and the most vile, indicator that they are in fact wicked or evil. That is my opinion anyway. Whether they crafted the whole scenario from the start or just manipulated an already existing situation, there was still a willful, deliberate action taken By Them. Opportunistic yes, which is still vile, but I believe some do craft it from the beginning. At least I wouldn’t put it past them. The situation with the counselor really concerns me. If I have to introduce basic tenants or concepts to my Counselor he or she can’t possibly begin to understand all the implications so as to guide and assist me with the intricacies he or she doesn’t begin to grasp. I’m sorry to be heavy handed here, and I’m sure having a counselor is very helpful in other areas. When you said others in the business, I’m assuming you mean psychiatrist or psychologist. I have to say most people I have spoken to about gaslighting don’t seem to know what I’m talking about. You are doing better than me in having a counselor or therapist. I’m sure that would serve me well, so don’t let me discourage you there, if you feel it is helping you, it probably is. Take care.
Thanks 4Light. Vile is how I feel about the wicked/evil game they play. If I take time to think about it all, I become physically ill. I have to process what has happened when it comes up in my mind, then addressing it.
In my particular case; he sat next to me, on one occasion, in the counselor’s office spewing his “insight” to the problems. Another session he had called in. He was able to blind us both which is what they do. I needed the counselor to talk through what I was going through and why I was thinking I was going crazy. For the most part it helped. I still have my moments. Best wishes for your recovery.
So thats what was happening:/
My exP want to open a recording studio. I provided all the basics to get him going. He never had any clients. There was always just one more thing he needed before he could bring in clients. A special drum microphone, a special sound pedal, mixers, sound baffles on the wall. Special drapery to make it presentable. But never a client. It was a place where his family thought he was successful. It was a nice place for him to get high and bring strangers there for sex, the place reeked of pot, beer bottles in the trash along with condoms and other evidence.Thank goodness he is out of my life. What a moron.
I too found the conceptual grasp of my therapist unable to adequately conceive of the “gas lighting” that was going on. She engaged in conversations with him and seemed to give validity to his excuses.
I believe it is difficult for anyone to perceive that someone could be malicious simply because they chose to be, and want to make you look bad. My departure from this analyst took place when I was told to try to appreciate his perspective…. and how hard our separation, that he instigated, must be on him.
I had tried to mitigate our rift by jumping through his initial hoops. I first did so unwillingly because I suspected he would change the rules once he achieved his goal. I was right. Once it took place, I wasn’t unhappy about having done so because, after all, he was my son and I couldn’t live with myself if I hadn’t given him enough rope to hang himself.
I’d read an analogy I found so interesting and true. In the Schultz comic, Peanuts, Lucy would lure Charlie Brown to kick a football that she’d hold for him each and every new football season. Charlie would struggle with his former experiences with Lucy but eventually, would side on the forgiving notion that everyone deserves a second chance. Lucy would inevitably snatch the ball away and tumble Charlie on his humiliated rump.
That’s life with a psychopath! And only removal from the relationship provides any protection. It’s much easier to do so when the predator is not related to you and you can close the door, than when it’s your very own child; but I know that without appropriate intervention, he’s unlikely to change- and that’s very unlikely to happen. Knowing what I’m dealing with, however, gives me a sense of peace. I only wish I’d known all along. I could have saved myself a great deal of heartache and money. The signs were there. I was simply his Charlie Brown.
Jm
I’m Charlie Brown too!!!
The issue with therapists is that we are trained to meet each individual “where they are”…. and sometimes that means engaging with someone who may not be quite all there!!!
It takes time to figure that a person lies!!!! And the disordered are so GOOD at doing impression management that sometimes what is glaringly obvious to the intimate person takes a while to manifest in a therapist’s office.
I’m Snoopy. Asleep half the time on AD meds.
Imara can I ask do most of the disordered you see come because they are court mandated or pressured by spouses at their wits end? I believe most of the cluster b’s have to be forced kicking and yelling. Or sneering at the idea of the stupid therapist being able to figuretthem out.
Tea, I was an outpatient therapist. The group I co-lead was one that I did under contract with my county. The guys were mandated. I’m proud to say though that we had an over 60% non recidivism rate after 2 years!!!
That said, many cluster Bs come to the therapist as dual diagnosis clients…by far the largest number are people dealing with addictions. Sex addiction is a BIG red flag. Many who come as part of a couple or family tend to drop out of therapy way before termination can be accomplished or before goals are met. Its ALWAYS someone else’s fault you see…..and of course when the mask slips they bolt!!!
Wow! Love this article! The demands these sorts put forward are always moving targets, always. Just when you think you’ve nailed down a solution to a concern/issue/need, it morphs into a different one.
It’s strange, I didn’t spend decades with any ONE disordered person. Instead I have engaged, dated, and befriended many of them. Each time, and always within a year or so of meeting them, I would get out of the relationship. Just get fed up with the games, lies, and chaos. But I would find myself engaged again with another one.
Now they seem to glow in the dark for me. So weird how it can take 45 years to really get it.
When I really GOT personality disorders the whole thing came to a screeching halt. I was absolutely woken out of my own false beliefs:
1. Everyone is equally responsible for problems in a relationship
2. We all want to be loved
3. We all tell lies, but everyone is honest deep down
4. We all feel the same things
5. We are all satisfied when we get our needs met
6. We all want to be liked
7. We all want to be connected
Once I got that these assumptions weren’t true for everyone, and what the red flags are that could clue me in that I was dealing with someone who most decidedly was NOT like ME, I started vetting people with new eyes.
Moving the goal posts is one red flag. It means “I am never satisfied”. Who wants to hang around someone NEVER satisfied? What a suck hole that person becomes. Doesn’t matter that they sometimes ACT satisfied (play-acting is what they do best). If they do this time and again…they are clearly showing us they cannot be satisfied, and that they will continue to drain us of our efforts to assist them.
Thank goodness for the information we all (now) have available to us!!!!!!!!
Take care, Slim
Great post slim!
This is both succinct and on-point; thanks very much for posting it.
Wow,I grew up with Charlie Brown and the gang,and this is the first time I looked at it in any other light than a comic!
What say we grab the the football from Lucy,give her a running start for the goal….MARS?!
Then we’ll celebrate with a little piano music and “danth”!(oh no,that’s another thread!)