When you’re dealing with sociopaths, figuring out what they really want is nearly impossible. Why? Because they keep changing what they want.
When my ex-husband, James Montgomery, moved into my house, I agreed to convert my basement, which I used as a small gym, into an office for him. I put away my gym equipment. I hired builders to install more electric outlets to run his array of computers, televisions and business equipment, which required enclosing the lower part of the walls. Making the improvements, and installing a small bathroom downstairs, cost me $6,000. (He promised to pay me back, but of course he never did.
When Montgomery first moved into the office, he was delighted.
When we had an argument, he complained about being forced to work out of a dark, dank cellar.
Then, when he was trying to butter me up, he was pleased that “Nuffles” (one of his pet names for me) made such a nice office for him.
Later, as our marriage was falling apart, he again bitterly complained about his deplorable working conditions.
Did Montgomery like the office, or not? I have no idea. The whole issue illustrates how sociopaths will say anything, even directly contradicting themselves, depending on their agenda at the moment.
Moving the goal posts
Many Lovefraud readers have described another, more insidious manifestation of changing sociopathic demands the phenomenon of continuously “moving the goal posts.” Here’s how this works:
Sociopaths tell you what they want, which we’ll call “A.” You give them “A” except now they want “B.” You give them “B,” but now they want “C.” This can continue for “D,” “E” and “F.” In fact, it can continue through the entire alphabet, and then through the entire Greek alphabet. Each time, sociopaths insist that this will make them happy.
One target of a sociopath used a different metaphor to describe this behavior “moving the line in the sand.” This person said:
Moving the line in the sand is a red flag. It serves many purposes. It damages the target. But it also grooms, tests and weakens the target. Plus, the target commits and gets deeper and deeper to recoup the loss (remember we talked about recouping the loss.)  Because it is used to test the target, I think it is an important red flag to look out for.
The target finds himself/herself tolerating more and more and doing more and more and the spath does less and less and needs/wants /implicitly demands/expects more and more. Sometimes its from an overt agreement, sometimes its from implicit agreements that the line gets moved.
Off balance
What happens to you as they keep changing the rules? You are totally off balance. You can’t figure out how to treat them, or how to be around them, because you keep getting mixed signals.
Sociopaths then make matters worse by demeaning you for not doing what they want. You try to explain that you did what they wanted previously, but now they want something different. The sociopaths vociferously deny that they ever told you anything different, and insist that they always wanted what they recently demanded and that you misunderstood them.
Sociopaths are so convincing that you begin to wonder if you did, indeed, misunderstand them, and if you’re losing your mind.
Moving the goal posts is a form of gaslighting. It messes with your sense of reality.
Empty inside
Why do sociopaths do this? Why do they keep moving the goal posts?
I think the main reason is that sociopaths are not fully formed human beings they’re empty shells. They have no core personality, no inner fiber, no guiding purpose. Their desires are not based on stable objectives, but passing fancies. They make demands according to whatever they feel like doing in the moment,
Plus they get bored easily. As soon as they tire of one form of entertainment, they want another.
A key question is, do sociopaths do this intentionally? Given that some sociopaths actively try to crush their targets, I certainly think it’s possible.
What do you think? Did you experience sociopaths who kept moving the goal posts? If so, were they clueless or doing it in purpose?
I cannot identify with changing the demands, just adding new ones to the list until I could not breathe. I was supposed to look good for him, dress like he wanted, clean the house imaculately, take care of the children, work full time, intertain his friends, join social clubs to get clients for him and let him have sex with me whenever he wanted to…while he mowed the grass and worked his way down the career ladder. I worked my way up the career ladder so it was a great relief when he left.
As some may know, I am reading a book the sociopath ordered from the library. I have to run his errands for him. I took the book and have been reading it off and on. The author discusses why psychopaths are so successful.
Today, I read a portion of the book where he discusses research concerning people whom have tested high on the PPI scale compared to those who are not psychopaths. I have to say, that although I feel the spath ordered the book to rattle me, he has achieved the opposite. It is much more education for me! According to the research, psychopaths score higher in recognizing and UNDERSTANDING facial emotional cues! This is contrary to what I have always thought and what many of us have felt to be true in our discussions here. Psychopaths CAN see and understand how we feel better than others. They just don’t FEEL any of the feelings. But, their grasp on the definitions of the feelings and their ability to read our faces is at a much higher level than that of a normal person.
The author interviewed a known psychopath. The psychopath told him one of his favorite ways to scam someone. He said that he will meet a new person and charm them and listen to them. He said that everyone will reveal something….deep and important to them. Here is a synopsis of one story the psychopath told. He said that one guy revealed that he worked a lot of long hours at work because of something that happened in his childhood and he felt the two points were “connected” for him. The psychopath said that all normal people end up revealing something. Then, he said, he bides his time while “working” on a “friendship” with the person. Then, he said that he will actually take this story the “target” told and make it his own story just changing it a little. IE: The target tells him the story above about work related issues because of a childhood issue. The psychopath waits a few weeks and then tells a similar story of a loss related to his own personal issues. The psychopath said this type of reflecting the “target’s” deepest emotion back to them in a different way causes the target to feel empathy, emotion, and then a bonding with the psychopath because their “stories” are so similar. The psychopath said THAT is when he will go in for the scam.
I think this is a very good explanation for the many changes we can see in one spath. They are constantly watching and changing with, and for, whomever they are trying to scam, or manipulate, to meet their base needs. If they rage and we show them fear and do what they want, they will continue to show rage. They can see our fear on our faces better than a non-psychopath! They read us and use the definition of our emotions against us even though they don’t feel them themselves most of the time! They listen even more attentively and watch us even more closely than a kindhearted person would. Then, they go in for our personal “kill”…whatever that may be.
When I think about the three people I’ve had in my life that I believe are/were sociopaths, I can see that this is true. Two of them actually told me they were of one political party when I met them. They chose the one that is most popular in my region. I told them I was in the other political party. A few weeks later, they both switched on me and expressed that they were in MY political party. When, I said, “But, I thought you said….,” they looked confused and told me I was mistaken. This is just one example where I have experienced sociopaths “polling” me, so to speak, and then a few weeks later claiming to think and feel as I think and feel. Then, once I am comfortable again. BAM! They are trying to create what is often called “switch back” where someone tries to get you to switch back to what they demand you be….like them and to meet their needs. The two I dealt with were not as good at it as a complete psychopath, but they did have that ability and it can be effective when one doesn’t understand it.
The one affecting me in the present will sometimes repeat my very words back to me days, or weeks later. I have been noticing this for about a year now. Before I thought it was an attempt at empathy. Now, I know it is for his own coldhearted purpose.
For most of the time I have known him, off and on, he shows disinterest and disdain for most of what I say. He discourages any emotional, or even companionable, relationship. Yet, he does later remember everything I said and the more emotional the situation, the more he remembers. He uses it later to manipulate. IE: He is going to be wanting something in the next few hours, so he becomes attentive. He brings up the subject I had been talking about a few days ago because he needs to access it to get me to do something for him. For a while now, it left me feeling as if I was talking to two robots pretending to be one human. The first one was disinterested or irritated with my worry. Then, a few days or weeks later, the second one is so concerned about me, HE brings it up.
I am much older and wiser now than the first time around. It is like watching a computer scanner. He expresses to me what he remembers me saying a few days or weeks ago. He tells me that he knows it is a tough situation for me. He will often then repeat word for word what I SAID my feelings were as if he is FEELING and has EMPATHY about what I said. He is not feeling any feeling or empathy. He is only understanding the definition of what my feelings mean and working to use that to get what he wants in this moment. That is what the research shows.
I didn’t used to know that. This research makes it clear to me what he has been doing. And they do it to everyone with whom they come in contact. Like computers who look like humans scanning us and then biding their time to repeat back to us and draw us towards the scam. They, then switch back to their initial plan. They want us to believe, do, or think as they do. They want power and control over us. They “condition” us as one article here discusses to accept this behavior which causes “cognitive dissonance” which as also been discussed here recently. We are drawn in because they are so much like us! Then, they begin to tell us how we need to change to become “better”….meaning more like them and what they want.
According to the research, psychopaths have areas in their brain that light up differently than normal people as we have known for a while. But, the recent research is showing that they are even better at recognizing emotions and feelings on the faces of other people than normal people are. Their connections are quickly translated from the amygdala to other portions of their brain in ways our brains do not as we are evolved humans and everything we do doesn’t stem from the amygdala any more. This also explains why most psychopaths have low impulse control and are addicted to anything and everything. A devolved brain with the amgydala more in charge is telling them what to do.
How can any normal human being compete with that kind of devolved brain chemistry? We can’t. Our brains have evolved beyond just our base lizard brain instincts. Being with a sociopath is like being with half human/half lizard. Evolved humans can not cooperate with a person run mostly by his/her amygdala. These devolved psychopaths will do anything, risk anything and they do not feel fear unless a certain belief system was abused into them from a young age. They are like reptiles and just waiting for the next instinctual need to be met in whatever way possible. If they have to bite you to get it, they will. I guess that is why many of us state that they are like chameleons. That is exactly the part of their brain they use to live amongst us. They look like other humans, and to meet their needs, they can act like other humans. But, they are not. The truly are, according to their brain scans, evolved lizards.
Yes, my sociopath husband changed his mind constantly. I would even pick a subject that he believed in and when I would try to get on the same page with him he would take the opposite side. He had my mind so screwed up I did not know if I was crazy. He told me once that to make a man unhappy was to give him what he wanted and not give him what he wanted. In other words nothing made him happy. I would give him sexually what he wanted and then laugh at me. He wanted to mess with my mind. I would fight with him at first but I soon learned what got to him was to not fight and then it scared him as he did not have control over me.
When I got away from him and ran with my kids from the east coast to the west coast I had PTSD so bad I could not complete a sentence. When he left me before I ran I laughed at the relief of the pressure off of me.
He came after me but I ran with the kids and was homeless for 3 years. I divorced him and he is remarried. By the way, he was a pastor.
Vi. Thank you for sharing about what you went through. I am needing to move back to my real home on the west coast and I am scared to do it until my house is paid off. I am older and afraid of being old and homeless. I am glad you got out and to a better place. I have two evil uncles who are preachers. One molested me. Those types of charming “leaders” can be very charismatic and very dangerous.
I can relate to piling more and more ever changing responsibilities on you because there was no way for him to lift a finger with a can of beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other. The only thing he could do was spew orders, demeaning remarks, bold lies and accusation out of that evil snake pit we call heart.
Somebody explained to me some time ago how it works. They charm you and ask you to dance your favorite dance with you. You are thrilled until he tells you not to lead. You say I was not leading. After that the tells you that you may be a little out of practice because you keep stepping on his feet. Finally he tells you, maybe if I count it out for you, you could follow. One two three, one two three. YOU are glad that he is so patient with you when you had no idea you were so rusty with your dance steps.
You go out again. You dance. You count in your mind, one two three, one two three when he stops you in the middle of the dance and says: “Sweetie, have you forgotten? It’s two five six seven”. Next time it became four five purple green….. After that he may grab you by the throat for being such an imbecile of not grasping a simple command.
You feel stupid for not getting simple things down and you are so glad to have him to lead. It must have been pure luck that you had met the right people to mentor you to amount to anything.
Yes, he is also holier than thou profaning the name of God with his inhumane abuse and emotional rape.
That dance analogy is right on target! My sociopath liked phone sex when we were apart and he insisted on a certain story in a certain way…if I deviated due to sheer boredom, he would sweetly remind me how the story went, and I eventually gave up and stuck to the script. Right before he abandoned the relationship, he complained to me that I didn’t make the phone sex good for him because it seemed “rote”. I was speechless.
Somebodysdream – what a great description – thank you so much!
I completely think they do it on purpose. When we bought our dream home together and I moved ahead of him while he stayed behind waiting for his house to sell, he specifically instructed that he was not to arrive and find he had walked into Hanaleimoon’s house…to wait for him to set it up together. When he arrived, I was berated for not having bought hom comfortable furniture for his tv room. When I reminded him of what he had said and told him the furniture selection needed his input he accused me of not caring about him. One of the requirements of the new house was room to build an additional garage and office for him…the home search was lengthy because of that specific requirement for him. All he talked about was the new garage he was going to have. Once we bought the house and had a contractor come over to discuss plans and cost, the sociopath wanted it so gold plated it was far out of our budget. He immediately blamed me, saying I got him to “sign on the dotted line” to buy the house I wanted but now his dream garage could never happen. I tried to reason with him, saying that his current idea was never what we had discussed and a reasonable garage was definitely within reach. He pouted like a child and kicked the dirt and said I got what I wanted but he would never have his dream garage now and refused to discuss it again. I was heartbroken, because I was so invested in making sure he was happy, and the whole home search had been controlled by his garage requirement. I have a hundred of these examples, and I believe they were all intentional to mess with me. He never moved into the house and abandoned the relationship with no warning or explanation, and I believe he never intended to move. Monster.
And, what is really scary, is that their brain scans show that they enjoy doing it when they are doing it. Our brains become ill from what they do, but their brains thrive on it.
All of you are so right! the spath is a snake in sheeps clothing. I have been divorced for two years, and I feel great. The drama, the lies, and the manipulation will not happen again. Just the other day, I received a letter from the spath stating he was sorry for the way he treated me. Years ago, I would have fell for this, but not anymore. If they gave out academy awards in the courtroom, he would certainly won! Karma is coming his way, and the snake knows it. I lost everything during my divorce, because of his manipulation, but I had to do what I had to do. I turned him into the IRS, and now he is loosing everything, and especially is freedom. This spath , looking back most certainly loved bombed, and I did not know this at the time. Spaths are dangerous people, and the best thing to do is no contact! When I received the letter, I made a copy, sent it to his attorney, and stated I want a cease and dissist from any communication from this snake. Whatever we all encountered, and endured from the spath, made us stronger, and more intuitive to these people. Run as far as you can, and never,never look back. Remember, no contact! The spath will always return when his supply has
vanished. , and try to snake his way into your life again. Stay away!
edge of sanity,
These people are incapable of being genuinely sorry about any of their misdeeds, not caring one iota about who has been hurt. You’re right – they are snakes.
I remember when my mind had been so badly affected that I was having trouble connecting thoughts and speaking.Spath wasn’t a bit concerned,noooooo!He just kept INCREASING his demands!I remember wondering why stress hadn’t killed him yet,with all his health issues.I’ve got it figured out now why spath seems immortal! He makes those around him VERY SICK!He’s laughing inside while making the people who know him,completely miserable!
For a very long time I have been a lurker here. For over five years I have been seeing a wonderful therapist, who has told me countless times that my father was a psychopath.
People sharing about their hateful children prompted me to finally post here because if a child can still affect a parent there is no reason for me to be ashamed of not having been able, as an adult, to escape the clutches of my controlling sadistic father.
Thank you for this post about shifting goals. Until reading it today I have felt like a complete loser in life.
My father would beat us up, and he tried to break my leg when I attempted to stop him from beating my mother up. For that I was taken out of the home. Today father would have done time in jail, back then he lied and I was put into an institution for emotionally disturbed kids. While I was there my mother took my young siblings to Germany and left me behind. I was not a teenager yet.
Now I read about and recognize it for what it was, the love bombing he did when I was in the institution.
When I lived with father my shoes were boy’s shoes because they lasted longer. My parent’s excuse was that I bit a dentist even though I do not remember ever having seen one. Father’s teeth were all taken care of yet the first time I saw a dentist was in the not so bad group home type of institution, where a lot of dental work had to be done; he was very cheap with his offspring. Yet when I was in Browndale father would come bearing gifts, even though he knew he was not allowed to visit. He knew how to make sure I would be around to know he tried to give me a guitar etc. He got suggestive lingerie to me and another time wrote me a letter with a Dear Ann Lander’s clipping of how a girl did not listen to her father and got an infection and pregnant. Many ugly insinuations came in the mail.
I ran away at the age of 15. I lived as a runaway /transient / hippie till I met my husband in Seattle. I was underage when I first met my husband and being Canadian I could not live there legally at first. We lied to my husband’s mother and told her that I was a fellow student; Dave attended the University of Washington. Those lies worked in my father’s favour in the future. I would get part time jobs from my husband Dave off the job board and make up names and Social Security numbers to be able to contribute to his mother supporting us. I truly loved Dave.
One Christmas I thought there would be no harm in calling my father to tell him I am married and happy because it would just be a long distance phone call and what harm could that do. You see my husband’s family found it strange that I did not have anyone.
A week after that fateful call my father showed up with his girlfriend and they charmed my non dysfunctional Seattle family to the point of allowing their son to move to Canada even though he had one more year of studies to complete. My father had promised to give us a house he owned in Hamilton, as a wedding gift. He also had Dave’s family convinced that their son’s education would be taken care of.
We became tenants, one of five other families of the most cramped tiniest apartment in that house. We were happy in love; therefore the size of the room did not matter. So my father moved us to Toronto and in no time we were fighting due to his meddling. My father purchased a one way ticket for Dave to go and visit his sister in the States, saying that Dave needed a holiday to get away from the stress. When dad purchased that ticket he promised Dave and me that he would get us back together again.
Immediately my father forced me to sign a postcard that said I was hitchhiking all over the continent, happy go lucky on my own while doing drugs. I forgot about that postcard till much later because I had no idea my father would send that card forward in an envelope to my aunt in Long Beach to put a California stamp on it and mail it to my father to forward to my husband’s family. When I did not hear from them my father had me convinced that Dave did not want me anymore.
After Dave was gone the goals kept getting changed. Father moved me to my uncle’s house in Toronto. I found a really good job as a cocktail waitress; I was able to find a nice apartment and live on my own from the tips alone. My father would come and collect my paycheque on paydays and deposit it in his joint bank account. I was not allowed to touch it, according to father. That job was not a place to be proud of working according to my father. Actually it was a nice place with nothing sleazy about it.
One of the times when father came to the house in Hamilton a tenant had a visitor who later told me that she knew my father had two children who were kidnapped away from him and taken to Germany (funny he never mentioned having me) and his brand of beer and cigarettes. When I asked her how she knew so much about him she said she would never forget those blue eyes when they were making love. She actually did work as a prostitute and was proud of it. But the place where I could make up to sixty dollars a day in tips legally back then was too sleazy for my father.
Father decided it was time I go to school so that was the end of that job. He took the money from the joint bank account to put a down payment on a house near High Park and he put the house in both of our names. That house became my prison because he had put my name on it.
At first I used a tiny screened in veranda facing the back yard as my living quarters then when I complained that it was not insulated he made a small ten by ten windowless room in the basement of that house to be my living quarters. I got to share the first floor kitchen with the tenants who rented the first floor. My father collected the rents and gossiped to the tenants about his wayward daughter. He taught them how to treat me.
He would come on the mornings when I had to go to school and in the basement act out drama about how he and the woman he was living with were getting along. He also played other games, think I was his entertainment and amusement. I felt as if I would not be a good daughter if I did not stay and listen. I was very late for school a lot. That first year my tuition was paid from the house income. I do not know how I survived because I had to beg whenever I needed anything and my groceries were brought when my father came, I did not even get an allowance from the house that was originally supposed to be paying for itself and my education. I remember that I did not even have a telephone while living in that house and I begged for one.
After the first semester I could see the surprise in his eyes when he saw that I was able to continue. That was when he refused to pay for the second semester saying that it would cost to much and take too long for me to make anything of myself.
So I applied for a student loan. But with the drama created in that house I could not function. When I washed the floor and the stove shocked me from the wet floor dad laughed with pleasure. If the other tenants would not have complained he had no intention of replacing that stove. Father rented to a male person who tried to rape me and after the rapist moved out he broke into the basement and then came to visit and bragged about being the one who stole my stuff. I got an English sheepdog and father promised free rent to the couple on the third floor if they would poison my dog.
Decided to work as a taxi driver after the school thing did not work out because I thought my father could not go to my place of work and demand my pay cheque. Cab drivers are self-employed in Toronto.
My father would go up north every Thanksgiving to close his cottage up. On thanksgiving I pulled a double shift driving cab and when I came home the girl from the third floor was sitting on the stoop crying. She said that my father and Stacy had put my dog Freedom in the trunk of the car and taken her up north to let her go in the woods ‘where all animals belong’.
For the first time I really got angry with him because to me the dog was the child I never had and helpless. I went to a cabby friend’s and kept phoning dad’s house till he finally came home from the cottage and angrily I told him that in Canada people go to jail for killing pets and he would be calling a jail cell his new home. He said nobody would believe me because he is family. He was right. He abused me all my life knowing that nobody would believe me. He was the charming father who could make me look off because he knew how to trigger my PTSD.
I went to stay with another cab driver and we found a lawyer Roger Timms. Roger got the house put into my name because of a technicality. My father told everyone that he had bought his daughter a house because she was not capable but in truth the down payment came from the deposit of my paycheques into that joint account. To this day I have heard gossip that my father bought me a house and I squandered it. My father still collected the rents because I could no longer go back to the house after getting angry with him, due to what I now know to be PTSD. In retrospect that cabdriver I thought was a friend was an opportunist who wanted to collect the rents and when he saw he was not getting anything from me he became my father’s friend. Toward the end my father opened up all of the windows so that the pipes burst. Lambert oil was another bill for me to pay; they would fill up even with the windows open that winter. That winter the year was 1980 and it was a relief to put that house behind me because my father no longer had a place to come and terrorize me.
I did move out of the city and with time became emotionally healthier. Father stalked me and when healthier I would think that I was strong enough to see if maybe this time he had changed and after all does not the bible say to honour thy father and mother. The parental love bombing would then turn into an abusive relationship with my dad over and over and over again because of my stupid belief that good would triumph in the end and that people mellowed as they got older. All my life I lost people and jobs because of my father to the point of not being able to function anymore.
For example when I was still driving taxi my girlfriend discovered the TTC was hiring women. My father found out that I was going to apply the next morning and he threw a fake heart attack fit in the basement, holding his chest at his heart while heavily panting, stating that if I went I would be putting my father in the grave. My girlfriend Cindy, who had only driven cab a very short time, got hired. I would definitely have been hired but could I have kept that job with my father meddling?
Only after his death have I been able to own a pet that does not suffer abuse because of my father. He would kick my pets if I did not talk rough to them. I knew he would kick them hard if I was not doing a soft shove that I faked to be hard. Father separated me from most of my girlfriends. Lillian Davidson is the only person who saw through him but she is no longer with us. Now I realize just how lucky I was to have lived with her and known her. She is the only person who told my father off for the way he treated me and he actually did not try to turn her against me. Think God brought her into my life at that time because she kept me safe from him when I most needed safety. Without Lillian I do not know if I would be alive today and that is not an exaggeration because I was an emotional mess when she met me. She got me on a disability pension because I was so emotionally beat up that I was giving up and the streets would have been my last place. Now I believe my father would have wanted that for me. My life had a semblance of normal in Lillian’s company and home until she died. After Lillian died my father and his girlfriend beat me up really badly, at his cottage in 1992, because I refused to give his girlfriend my Pembrooke Welsh Corgi puppy. Yes the same girlfriend who a dozen years earlier helped my dad put Freedom the sheepdog in the trunk of the car and drive out with my dad to abandon the dog in the woods.
My father has bad mouthed me to the point of where, even though I do not have a criminal record, people who knew him thought I am a prostitute. When I rationally explain to them how ridiculous that is I have been told to ’get over it’ or how liberal in their thinking they are. This is a discovery I made after he died. Imagine the surprise if your cousins were to, in a matter of fact way, imply that you may still be working at that. The cousin’s I saw after my father’s death have lived all this time thinking that. Now I know why I had not seen anyone for over forty years while they had Christmases, family get togethers, weddings and funerals. My cousin’s told me I am a prostitute and it was impossible to convince them otherwise. Father had 13 siblings and I remember the get togethers for any and every occasion with these cousins, prior to Browndale. Think this ugly gossip may have started when I went to Browndale because in that day and age the child was always seen as the one who was wrong. I lost my husband’s family and now I know why. Wish someone would have clued me in a long time ago about the things dad was saying but I guess that if they believed him they thought there was no reason to say anything to me. With that knowledge everything has fallen into place. The ugliness toward me when I was first introduced to people and the way that people, who I knew never had a chance to know me, turned on me always puzzled me. For example the women who had the cottage next to my father’s sold hers because on occasion he would bring me up to his cottage. That seemed a bit extreme, like a strange reason to sell her place at the time even though she very strongly showed how much contempt she had for me.
I have an opportunity of getting subsidized housing in a lovely Lithuanian place for people over 55. None of my relatives would be there because they all own property and shall be taken care of by their children. I put in the application last December and earlier this week my girlfriend and I went to see where on the waiting list I stand. While there I spoke to a tenant, who was sitting outside, about the apartments. She asked me my Lithuanian last name and when I told her it seems she is a good friend of my cousin’s wife’s mother. On one occasion when the mother of my cousin’s wife saw me she let it be known that she had absolutely no respect for me. It was shunning at its best. I am reconsidering moving into this lovely place near a beautiful Toronto huge park, for which I have waited a very long time to be able to become old enough to get into. Because of my father’s poison the PTSD is kicking in big time. I am too paralyzed to even see my therapist because I do not believe that she can change the actual facts. I do not think it is possible to move in without being shunned in my new home and if they are anything like my father’s family Lithuanians do love their gossip.
Six years ago, when my father died, I felt relief I had never known before, thinking that he cannot hurt me anymore. Moving into this place has been my goal that my therapist and I have spoken about since I first saw her over five years ago. This goal has kept me going but now I am not so sure. To be emotionally abused again in my old age because of my father would damage me spiritually.
Canuck: Move into the apartment despite what the neighbors think. If you can make one or two friends there, you can explain the situation and perhaps be accepted by most of the residents sooner or later. If not, well, lots of people don’t socialize all that much with their neighbors anyway. Join a church, get a part-time job, do volunteer work with animals, etc. Don’t let your sick father control you from beyond the grave. Don’t back out of moving to a place that you have wanted to move to for a long time based on garbage he said ten years ago.
If new neighbors say that they know the real story about you, look them straight in the eye and say that you know that your father always told everyone he met that his daughter was a prostitute. Then ask them to think about what kind of man goes around telling everybody that his daughter is a prostitute. Even if it were true, a normal father would try to hide his daughter’s shame, not broadcast it. Only a sociopathic jerk would try to get people to feel sorry for him by telling a tale of woe about a “daughter gone bad.”
I hope that you are able to get the apartment that you want, or that you will find another that you like even better. Keep posting here — this place is very therapeutic.
Canuck, I don’t know if you are still reading this thread, but I wondered if you have ever tried to use the Salvation Army to track down your mother and siblings in Germany?
Thanks for your advice Divorced from Gaslighter.
I have ‘fixed’ myself for my father so many times, when nothing was broken, only to be torn down that I am very tired of ’fixing’ myself and just want to grow old in peace. ‘Fixing’ myself to please my dad and never being good enough, thus I posted under Sociopaths and Their Changing Demands, so he could further destroy my spirit has kept me too busy for real opportunities for advancement or when found he would insist I ‘fix’ myself out of them, hence I am poor.
In my defence, I have ’fixed’ myself to the maximum of my capabilities of what is available to work with in my situation now.
I am a professional volunteer and I do have a part time job as a Drop in Worker, Peer Support Worker and WRAP workshop facilitator. Have countless certificates of gratitude for my volunteer work and thus a pretty good resume but nobody hires with Rob Ford pulling the funding for the type of work I do, shall lose my part time work. Therefore, because rent is steep in Toronto, I have only two options. To live out my old age here amongst the crack addicts or go into the beautifully located partially subsidized Lithuanian senior’s building because rent in Toronto is steep. Here I am respected yet most unhappy and uncomfortable with my surroundings, there it shall be the flip side and I am not sure if my mental health can take being shunned in the community.
In the community where I now live, due to cheap rent, I am known for my volunteer work / advocacy and can hold my head up high. But this community is extremely rough around the edges and not a pleasant community where one can look forward to enjoy aging gracefully. The reputation of this community may also have helped my father’s rumors in recent years. During my advocacy work I have been in the local papers, Toronto Star and Toronto Sun many times with my community mentioned and my full name. When my name is googled these articles come up, archived back to 2006 and yes in retrospect that March my father died, and no the articles are not about prostitution.
The idea of having to explain myself, after having been accepted by the Canadian community, is debilitating to say the least. People from my past have spread the rumor that my father purchased a house for me and that rumor of having a ‘rich’ father has spread in this very poor community and yes people wonder what happened to me to be here. The world really is a small place. What one says about their past does not make the rumors go away.
I hope that someday one of my relatives some way somehow comes across my two posts as I never had the opportunity to explain my side to any of them because my father made sure I was never in contact long enough to find out about his lies and thus dispell the image they had of me created by those lies. The PTSD is beyond extreme in that direction, to the point of poor communicaton skills… blubbering / blabbering, shutting down and thus I seem crazy. My PTSD elicts the ‘fix’ yourself advice. Not so in this known for its poverty, halfway houses, refugees and shelters Canadian community.
I attempted to connect with my niece on Facebook in Germany, whom I have never met, and the rumors have gone that deep. Think my father Sidney somehow also got to my German relatives because money really does make a difference in how much one can convince others. Or maybe money is more important and the community where one lives cancels out the good work one does.
Perhaps the newspaper articles could even hurt my chances of moving into a very different ‘class’ of community, although my appearance is clean, conservative and pleasant, lacking in tatoos or any other stigmatizing outward appearance.
Canuck,
I agree with Divorced from Gaslighter – get the apartment and the heck with what anybody else thinks of you. You have been through ENOUGH. To anyone who even mentions that you were a prostitute, tell them the truth (not that you owe anyone an explanation), that your sperm donor (he doesn’t deserve to be called a father) was pathological liar (and worst) who spread lies about you – he was a psychopath, stirring up evil the whole time he was on this earth. If people want to know the truth about you, then, go ahead and share it. You’ve got nothing to hide, unlike, the spaths that roam this earth. Your sperm donor just spread chaos and destruction in your life – you deserve to be happy, free of his tentacles.
Hello bluejay.
You are right.
‘Not that I owe anyone an explanation’, I like that way of thinking.
Thank You,
Canuck
Canuck – your story has many, many parallels to my story with the spath mother I had. Wow – so sorry for all you / we / all of us have been through. My current family on my mother’s side believes all kinds of evil about me. My first cousin lives in the same town and I’ve never met his daughter and only met his sons once almost 20 years ago. I have a job which requires a security clearance, so how could I possibly have done jail time or been as you say a prostitute or addicted to hard core drugs. How could “normal people” believe any of it ?? I know – I’m among people here who completely understand. So sorry you lost the love of your life Dave and I struggle with being 58 years old and not being able to change my life history.
As far as the topic of do they mean to do the things they do – absolutely. My mother would occasionally for no reason give away all my clothes and tell the Good Will donation center that her daughter had died. Then she would tell her church buddies that I had thrown out all my clothes – what an ungrateful daughter I was. She did crap like that whenever she was bored. Deliberately just to get something going.
She also once said to me that I was the person in her life that she could do whatever she wanted and that I just had to take it. She said it was up to me to find my “whipping person.” Yuk.
I don’t even know how to list all the deliberate things that went on and all the lies and all the manipulations. I do know that the phrase, “I’ll be happy when ____” was a daily complaint from her. When I was 19 years old, having been sabotaged about college and going to a nearby small college and living at home, I decided to try for one whole year to do everything she wanted, except for deviant activities. At the end of the year, she was still the same bottomless pit, needing entertainment and money and attention every second of every day. That was when my mind broke free and her opinion no longer mattered. I was still in her world and it took me another 8 years to walk away and when I did it was permanent. I love, love, love the analogy of “empty shell.” That was absolutely her. That explains so many things to me.
When she died in 2003, I received some of the weirdest, offensive “sympathy cards” where total strangers stated how spath mother had “shared” with them all her “disappointments” in her children. Really – how about being “disappointed” that I was starved, abused, beaten, lied about. But “normal people” would never believe me, so I burned all those cards. The truth is I paid for my own college, I paid for my own wedding, and she embezzled funds from me, while claiming I wrote “hot checks.”
A crazy making thing she did to my brother was to deliberately break him up with the love of his life. Trashed her completely and she went back to Arizona. Then the spath mother did a 180 and made big friends with Arizona dream girl, inviting her to visit and saying that my brother dumped her for a party life style. And of course all the lies being told without my brother having any idea what was happening. So very sad and frustrating.
I appreciate the post above that said when doing horrible things, spaths get pleasure from it, while the rest of us decent folks would be sick doing those things. Spaths really are a different breed of human – a different way of being human on the planet.
I appreciate all the lucid writing and understanding that I have gained on this site. I would be lost, lost without it. It is a Godsend. Thank you.
Wow OpalRose. We have so very much in common!
I also am so very sorry about the life your mother put you through and totally hear you when you say sorry for all you /we / everyone has been through.
‘I struggle with being 58 years old and not being able to change my life history.’ resonates strongly. When you were a little girl bet you never imagined life could turn out like this. Where is the sense and the meaning? Why?
I will be 60 come December and feel like my life has been a total waste because of a lack of any reference point other than the ‘father knows best’ teachings.
If reincarnation were possible I would have children next time around, but even my pets were abused by their ‘grandfather’. Therefore many normal human undertakings I knew it would be best to avoid got bypassed in this life. Not having had children is my greatest regret.
I really really struggle with my life history and it is difficult not to feel resentment toward the dead, as bluejay calls it, sperm donar.
People cannot fathom how ‘sacred’ parents are capable of such evil and that is when we are excruciatingly hurt again. We become doubly abused by those who have no comprehension that we did nothing to deserve the cruelty, so we suffer in silence.
When a woman was abused by her spouse people totally get it but when it is a parent nobody wants to hear it as it affects their sensibilities. Yet the damage done, when one is young and escape is impossible, is so much more debilitating.
The old teachings of honour thy father and mother must be rewritten.
If the evil ones would have just killed us at one fell swoop it would have been much more merciful to us, I do not try to speak for others but I feel the pain was unnecessarily drawn out and that is torture. There is prison for murder but no consequences for the murder of what should have been a life lived, which in my humble opinion is just as evil if not more so.
I am allergic to the evil ones. My body goes into high alert uncomfortable and PTSD really kicks in so badly that I am unable to act any other way than crazy, when I am in the presence of someone who is a potential danger. That individual can be the nicest person and have nothing obvious that would be considered a red flag yet if I get involved I find that the warning was spot on. I have learned not to ignore my senses although the PTSD usually puts them off me anyway. Do you also have that allergy OpalRose? I have often wondered if it is common for people abused from childhood.
There are so many similarities in our stories that it is uncanny. OpalRose I thank you so very much for sharing.
I thank the others who took the time to respond. Thank you for some excellent points to ponder….
Canuck – everything you say above – everything – is absolutely right on !! As a little girl, I knew what I wanted – children, a good job (I wanted to be a librarian), a pretty little household – very simple things. The older I got, the more the spath mother sought to destroy all my dreams and make me her exclusive slave – not that total devotion to her fixed anything anyway.
My greatest sadness too is that I didn’t have children. There is a part of me that knows they would not have been safe around her family and so perhaps it’s bitter-sweet. But still, if I had understood the situation the way I do now, there may have been paths to take that would have included safety and children. I am so sorry we share that grief.
Thank you for sharing about the fateful phone call to your father. There is no way you could have known the evil heinous behavior that would follow. I have worked on coming to a place of understanding about my making choices that turned out badly. There was no way, no way, no way that I could have known the depth of busy evil she was capable of.
I love the “allergic reaction” to evil – brilliant !! Yes – I am allergic now too. Sometimes it takes me a little while to recognize what my hyperventilation is about – but then I see it and I run the other way. Yes – I babble in the presence of evil – but that’s my intuition knowing that any interaction with them is nonsense anyway.
And I have been financially destitute in my life as well. No roof over my head, no decent food to eat, no job. For months at a time. I know that so well. And it makes no sense for survivors of abuse to have to live that way. But I think that is part of what spaths do – strip us of needed resources that no one in their right mind would ever, ever do to a family member.
Every time I thought through what was going on, trying to figure out spath mother, the truth was always much, much worse than my wildest dreams. I think that is because the extreme of “normal” doesn’t even come close to the reality of evil and disordered people.
Finally, I struggle with meaning and feeling like my life is wasted in terms of normal history, normal needs, normal wants (like having children). I do know that I have learned such priceless lessons and I hope, hope, hope that means something.
See what you think of this article – it has helped me.
http://180rule.com/precious-pearl-of-purity/
If the link does not work – try searching on “The 180 degree rule” and looking for the “Precious Pearl of Purity” article.
I wish you all the best – let us know how you are doing. I am not a regular poster, but feel my support for your journey even if I do not post often.
Wow a true female Spath.