By | November 11, 2011 103 Comments

Stress is contagious

New research finds that stress in the workplace can spread from person to person. Read Work stress as contagious as a cold, says study, on

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Ox Drover

I think this goes both ways….if we are around calm people, we also pick up that calmness as well, and if we are around “hysterical” people we tend to pick that up as well. HAppy people=happy us, depressed people=depressed us, etc.

The Bible says that “evil companions corrupt good morals” and I find that when I am around “good people” I tend to act and think “more better” than when I am around people with a low moral threshold,, and when I am around people who are happy and calm, peaceful and good, I mirror those feelings and thoughts in myself. So when we associate with uplifting people we feel better, we think better, we act better, I think we ARE better, than when we associate with negative, nasty, hateful people!

When we are “forced” by virtue of our jobs, schools etc. to associate with people who are “drama” queens/kings, we should, I think, focus on NOT allowing this to adversely effect us. I think it takes effort on our part to accomplish this as well.


Recently I’ve been noticing that I don’t cuss as much – hardly ever – as I used to. I used to use foul words several times a day.

Back then, I told my spath, “you know, we cuss too much. I think that it contributes to stress to hear cuss words. We should try to change that about ourselves.”

Well, of course, he just ramped it up. And I realized that being around someone who cusses also makes you more likely to cuss. We tend to pick up other people’s speech habits.

Since I left the spath I rarely, if ever, cuss. When I need an explitive, I use a clean one, like, “freakin'”.

What’s interesting is that I didn’t need to make an effort. It happened naturally, just from getting away from the spath.

Now when I cuss it’s usually when I’m talking ABOUT spaths and their outlandish behavior.

I would venture to say that cussing is a red flag and that if someone cusses a lot, they either are a spath or are involved with one.



My boss says “f*ck” constantly at work, in the office.

He’s a N.



HA…maybe your boss is my X spath! 🙂



VERY good point about cussing and spaths.



Ha ha…. a big blech.

But, my spath never ever swore. It was part of the mask he wore. Impeccible manners. And entirely evil.



Yuk…what an evil cover up…


I’m trying to remember if my spath swore when we first met…

I can’t really remember, but I don’t think he swore as much as he did later. I do remember the day when he first started using the “C” word. It was over 10 years into our relationshit. I find that word very offensive but I tried to pretend that I didn’t because I could tell he was using it specifically to offend me.

I’m glad that you didn’t find out how horrible you would have been treated if he had married you. He didn’t marry you because you weren’t as easily manipulated as his ex-wife was, I’m sure. I’ve heard that once married, they turn from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the honeymoon. Mine turned that way when I bought our house. He knew I was completely isolated by then.


Could someone please help me? So I don’t know what to do cause I’ve asked the few family members I keep in contact with to help me cosign for a loan. But bad credit runs in my family. Surprisingly, I have a credit report and its listed as fair or good. But I have very little credit history. I feel so discouraged and I just started at my job. I just don’t know what to do. I don’t know anybody else that can help me. I’m trying all my hardest.


I think you got bad advice from the FA department. They want someone to assume responsibility for the loan so they can keep you in school with as little work on their part as possible.

You need to live as an independant person for at least a year and then you can become eligible for grants, rather than loans.

Spend some time assessing your strengths and talents. What makes you unique? Use those capacities to find ways of generating income. Apply for scholarships from organizations that help people in your area of interest. Use whatever free aid is out there. Xmas season is coming up, there might be retail positions available, so start applying.

The other option is to continue to deal with your father. He is toxic, but so are most people out there.


HurtNoMore, you may want to research the option to become an EMANCIPATED MINOR. I believe you can do this without paying a lawyer. This is like a divorce from your parents, at school it might help you qualify for aid, to keep your assets in play but not your parent’s assets. I don’t know all the answers here, I just know that this COULD be a step for you (and I don’t know your relationship with your parents). It’s a hard road, only you can decide if you need to do THAT or keep engaged with your dad.

If you can find it, babysitting jobs CAN pay well, and aren’t visible to the tax man. When I was in college, I slept every night at a woman’s house, and she paid me for it. She worked the night shift in a factory and needed somebody to sleep at her house because of her kids.


I don’t think hurtnomore is a minor. She is at least 18 and in college, but still being considered as a dependant on her father’s taxes. That’s why FA wants her to get loans.

This is so unfair because she is supporting herself and yet he is taking the deduction!

I think, if the divorce demands that he pay for her college, then legal council is in order. It’s considered child support and he can get in lots of trouble for not paying it. All kinds of bad things happen to men who don’t pay child support.

Ox Drover


Getting someone to “co-sign” for the loan ASSURES the lender that someone BESIDES YOU will take responsibility if you fail to repay the loan.

If your relatives are not good credit risks, then the lender may not accept them.

Speak to your student aid department and tell them what is going on…find out WHY your father is “required” to pay for your college, and if he IS REQUIRED by any law or divorce decree to pay, then you will have to find an attorney to go to court. Finding an attorney to do this for FREE is probably going to be DIFFICULT or impossible.

Your only options may be:

1) do what your dad demands in order to get him to pay (down side is you have to put up with his shiat)

2) quit school for the spring semester and go to work, and set yourself up independently, support yourself and save your money and then reapply for school in a year or so with grants as an INDEPENDENT adult. (down side: some grant programs won’t consider ONLY your income until you are 25, this will also mean that it will take several years of part time school to finish your degree.

3) consult with your mother and find out what information she has about your dad being required to pay your schooling. See if she will help you enforce it if he is required by divorce decree.

The thing is Hurtnomore, you have known for over a year now that your dad is a controlling person, and he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE….your whole culture and family situation is not going to change, it is all about control of you, making you do what your family expects, and you have two choices, and only two really, and that is to become financially indpendent and on your own or continue to knuckle under and do what they want in exchange for them supporting you financially.

The “golden rule” is that HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES. So if you accept their money, you have to go by their rules. You are legally an adult, so that being the case….it is your choice but not an easy one because independence requires YOU be responsible for your own support.


Dear OxDrover,
Its not that I’m willing to accept the money. Its just that if he’s legally bound, what can I do? I mean I know plenty of students who work 2-3 jobs to go to school here. I’ve been looking into that for the next semesters. But for right I need a loan for this semester which is coming to a close soon.

Skylar- I’m going to look into a few scholarship websites and apply.
Callmeathena- Im 19 going on 20.
Thanks everyone!

Ox Drover


You still have not explained WHY and HOW he is “legally bound” to financially support you through college.

You say “what can I do?”

First you have to determine IF he IS LEGALLY BOUND TO Support you, and secondly if he IS LEGALLY BOUND to support you, and is not willing to do so without being compelled by law, then you will have to find an attorney that will get a judge to compel him to do so, but IT WILL NOT BE ANYTHING THAT WILL BE IMMEDIATE…it will take months if not years to get him into court and make him give you the money even if there is a contract that says he is legally bound to do so.

If you are wanting him to sign a loan or give you money for the REST OF THIS SEMESTER Which is probably about another 6 weeks or so long, I can almost tell you THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless he does so voluntarily. Legal things take TIME and if someone wants to DELAY they can DELAY DELAY DELAYYYYY for a long time.

As I remember he was giving you grief about driving you to school at the start of this semester and in delaying the money for the classes last fall at the START of this semester. THIS IS NOTHING NEW….he has been doing this kind of thing since your senior year in high school…and at the start of your freshman year.

The school’s financial adviser is going to be the best one to help you figure out a way to get money for the rest of this semester and for your next semester….but one thing that you need to learn I think, is to PLAN IN ADVANCE FOR SEVERAL MONTHS AHEAD for your financial needs. Know how much it will cost you for a place to stay, for food, transportation, and school expenses, etc. so that you have these things lined out.

I can’t tell you from a distance how to plan these things because I don’t know your situation, but I suggest that you find someone older that you can trust (not any of your family or family type friends as they seem to be like the woman last summer that you stayed with that betrayed you) and see if they can help you, maybe the parents of one of your friends, or even call a domestic violence shelter and see if they have someone who can ADVISE you. It is obvious to me that you need someone to give you some PRACTICAL ON SITE ADVICE about how to manage your finances etc.

Hang in there Hurtnomore, and keep on working toward your independence in a logical, methodical way. Get some real life advice and help in how to finish up the semester if you can, or if you must, drop out of school with “passing grades” at least, find a place to live and a job to support yourself. It is a shame that you don’t have a supportive family, but hopefully some of your friends have parents or older sibs that will give you some advice and mentor you. Good bless! (((hugs)))


Ox and everyone,

I only know a little about this topic, because I have just started looking into it for my own daughter who is 15 and refuses to have anything to do with her spath father/my ex, and this extends to financial support… he has stated he will not pay for college unless she returns to “a full relationship” with him.

So I looked into this and was very dismayed to learn that “legally bound to pay’ is not anything to do with the divorce agreement — it is how the law views parental responsibility to pay for their children’s college! So, this is universal, and the law is fairly recent.

What this means is that no, my daughter cannot become independent or emancipate herself (exception: if she gets married!) until something like age 25 or 26… until that age, the parents are LEGALLY OBLIGATED in the eyes of the schools/FA people to pay. That means that no, she does not qualify on her own for any tuition breaks. The decision makers do look at the parent assets/income (I have little or none, and her dad is extremely wealthy).

What I am learning is that schools may qualify her for financial aid based solely on my income, because she lives with me full time (though we technically have joint custody; I cannot afford the legal battle of trying to get official full legal/physical custody… he would fight me endlessly and bankrupt me. He has the funds to abuse me financially in that way. Even though she has not lived with him for 2 years).

However, schools/FA do retain the right to “consider” his income… and to deny her financial aid based on her dad’s assets/income. And we have NO recourse in that — I mean, the burden falls to me/my daughter to pressure him to pay (either cajoling (haha right, yeah?) or taking him to court (which costs money we do not have).

So it is really a tough bind that people like hurtnomore and my daughter are in — and while my ex-husband is “legally obligated to pay” for her college — how do we get a spath to do that?

I mean — he gleefully enjoys dangling this carrot to her, and dancing around the answer — will he pay? won’t he pay? if she returns to “a full relationship” with him (whatever that means) he will pay? What if she isn’t respectful enough? Will he then withdraw the funding again?

It totally sucks.


And… so no, it is not (unfortunately) quite so simple as JUST TELL YOUR DAD TO PAY BECAUSE HE IS LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO or, TAKE HIM TO COURT, or, TELL THE SCHOOL HE WON’T PAY.

That last one is the kicker: just go talk to your FA office and explain the situation. I know that is well meaning advice, and I would have once given in myself before I started looking into this and discovered that no, this really is a no-win bind.

The only answers seem to be:

1. suck it up to your dad to get the money
2. go to school slowly, work your way through.
3. work first, save up as much as you can, then pay for it yourself later or once you turn 25 or 26 (whatever the age is) or can get your own loans
4. get married and thus “emancipated” from parents

Bottom line is — it seems that there is no loophole in this law that covers cases of abusive spathness of parents who refuse to pay or attach abusive strings to the money.

And the cost of college being what it is these days, and the number of cases of student loans that are excessive and cannot be paid of or discharged in bankruptcy — if one of the parents actually DOES have the money but refuses… well, the kid is pretty stuck.

i hope my info is incorrect, but I fear that it is not.


Ox Drover

20 years,

Okay I hear what you are saying, it isn’t really a “law” so much as a financial aid REGULATION, or requirement. It is for the kid with a parent who refuses to pay a “catch 22” that they can’t get around except by WAITING to go to school.

Now, what Hurtnomore is saying makes Sense—she is caught in that “catch 22” and sounds like your daughter may be caught in that.

As far as your daughter is concerned, I ADMIRE her resolve not to be “bought” by her father with school money. That takes a STRONG young woman to stand up and say NO!

I’m glad that your daughter has you though for advice and support. Hurtnomore doesn’t even have that, instead she has pressure from family and friends to conform to daddy’s demands, as well as no support from anyone to help her get set up independently in an apartment etc.

Good luck to you and your daughter I think she is gonna do just fine. Any young woman that strong will make it in this world!


You don’t HAVE to enter into the power and control game! What it says is that she could start at a community college for her first two years and then transfer and you could skip this whole load of stress and crap altogether. Find out which community college feeds into the university of choice and start her there. It doesn’t even have to be two years, can be just one, but all colleges require those lower level courses that easily transfer so skip the jumping hoops phase and save money!!!


And it is “easy” for me to say at age 49, years go by in the blink of an eye, so waiting it out might be the best option in cases like this… if at all possible… move to another city, get a job, try to take a few college classes (even at a community college), pay as you go, then get your degree later.

So hard to know what the right answer is or advice to give. Or, apply for scholarships. That seems a very smart approach.

I can see that Hurtnomore is in a terrible bind right now, already enrolled in school, the money is due, and in order to get the money from her dad, she is expected and pressured to go along with something that goes against who she IS.

Hurtnomore, you sound like you are at a threshold of something, decision to make about your dad/money. This is not easy. Whatever choice you decide upon will be the right one for you NOW. You can always make a different choice later, if you are not comfortable with the results. Life does seem to be trial and error, for many of us.

Even if you do not have support of family and friends, you are in a college setting where, perhaps, there are new friends to meet who might offer you some encouragement, ideas, opportunities, support. Don’t give up!

I wish you lots of good luck!

Ox, thanks — I do think my daughter is going to be fine — she amazes me with her strength and resolve. The tough part for me is that because she is a minor she still needs some protection from me. Minors do not have enough legal rights to protection from their parents (particularly spath parents who lie and fool most everyone). So, I try to do what I can to provide a buffer and shield, but make that as invisible as possible. I don’t want to unwittingly diminish any of HER power.

(don’t you think, sometimes, we forget our personal power? I think it is designed that way — the spath doesn’t so much steal our power as cause us to forget that we have it — always did.)



Can I offer you some perspective.

I just went through the process with my oldest child. He applied to, and was accepted to more than 8 excellent schools.
Some were public. Some were private.

I have joint custody with my ex-husband, who is a an idiot, but my son lives with me. Not one school tried to get my ex-husband to pay up. Not one school asked me for his 1040 or W2s or anything. Not one school asked me for copies of our divorce decree. My son lives with me, and that’s all that matters. And yes, he’s getting plenty of financial aid.

I was all worked up too, years prior, worrying about this.

But when you think of how many thousands of other people are in the same seat that you are in, you realize, it’s gotta work, and, in fact, it does.




Yes, absolutely! You are right. However… community colleges, while much cheaper than universities, still cost money. I’m not saying it isn’t a considerable cost savings, but for me and my daughter — we are actually quite poor so community college is tough. I’m not saying it isn’t doable — we are determined — but we can’t just whip out the checkbook.

In our area where we live, the (current, not adjusted for next 4 years’ inflation) cost of tuition of 2 years community college followed by 2 years of the state school, not including room and board (this would be living at home) and not including books, not including commuting costs — just tuition/fees — is about $30,000. That is a huge chunk of money for us.

But yes — that is probably the way she will do it! That is, we think, the cheapest route. Plus, see what scholarships she can get. She’s starting early to do her research (she is a sophomore).



I REALLY appreciate your perspective. You are right — I am getting more worked up about it than I probably should, and 2 years early! It is very reassuring to hear that many others have been through this and found ways to make it work. I guess we will, too. 🙂

I am also terrified of taking out student loans that I cannot repay. I have a friend who did that for her son — she is $40,000 in debt (it is a debt in the name of the parent — not in the name of the student), she is now unemployed, about 63 years old, cannot pay this debt back, cannot get it discharged in bankruptcy and she does not know what to do. I fear myself getting into that situation — so will avoid student loans like the plague, trying anything else we possibly can.

Ox Drover

Thanks Athena, good advice. I agree with you 20Years, loans in this economy when we don’t know what we are facing as a nation much less individually, are pretty risky, especially when there is no way other than paying up to get out of them.

I went to school on scholarships, grants and working. I also had a little bit of child support but I did have two kids…I lived very frugally, and a friend and I started a house cleaning business and we cleaned houses for people between classes, plus we also had other jobs and I bartered with others for things I needed with other non-traditional (single parent) and older students. I was the BARTER QUEEN…I baby sat for a guy who had a little girl and he worked on my car, I cooked for him and his daughter, and he bought the groceries..I rented a house that had been damaged by the previous renters and agreed to fix it up at my own cost, if he wouldn’t raise the rent til I finished school, so I had a cheap place to live, I carpooled kids and myself to school, I tutored other students, so I managed to get through school debt free—and did it with a kid on each hip and finished with a 3.97 GPA. You can do whatever you set your mind to do if you are willing to WORK at it and delay gratification on your “wants” and stick just to your “needs.”


Regarding university degrees:
Am against this entitlement attitude that kids are entitled to university education. Some are waking up to the fact that it’s not the panacea it used to be. Something to be said for working a couple of years too. Helps kids get some direction, gives them time to sort out who they are, and heck, a little hard work never hurt anyone. And the self sufficiency they learn, now THAT’s an education that carries them through life.

Katy, who worked her way to earn her university degree with a toddler, NO family, and no friends. and NO WELFARE.

Ox Drover

Katy, I agree with you about a college education is not an “entitlement” for any of us. I had a full ride scholarship at 16 when I first started to college and I didn’t know what the heck I wanted and I ended up dropping out….going on the adventures to Africa with the Sperm donor P and coming out self supporting at least with some job skills, and eventually went back to college with a kid on each hip, working and taking care of my kids and appreciating my education. When I got out of high school I had NO idea what I wanted to do and didn’t have the self discipline or maturity for college as I’d never been allowed to make a decision for myself.

When I did go back to college, I worked hard at it and had a focus and a maturity that I sure as heck didn’t have when I was a kid right out of high school. I’d had plenty of job experience by then, and life experience as well. I also knew by then how to manage money and time which was one of the things I had learned prior to going back to college as an adult.

LIFE EXPERIENCE even if it is working at McDonald’s is a good thing for everyone I think. Having things “too easy” is not a good thing either me thinks. Feeling ENTITLED to the folks buying you a new car because you turned 16 isn’t a good thing either….working and buying your own car, paying your own insurance etc. is a learning experience and a maturing experience that makes one appreciate what they work for. Well, it does SOME people, with my P-son, he feels ENTITLED to whatever he WANTS and he’s willing to ROB, STEAL and KILL to get what he wants, but normal people do learn to appreciate what they EARN.


One of the hardest lessons for me and one of the saddest things I witness here on LF is how willing some are to give the spath power over them. I don’t think we can heal from the spath until we face our own participation, what we did to our relationships or marriages. For my part, I turned over my responsibility to care for myself and once I claimed that back, he lost most of his power to abuse. Being financially independent from him CUTS a huge tool spaths can use to control and abuse. Staying angry at what he does not give or provide just feeds the negativity. Getting free and being self sufficient is SO empowering.

I did not have good parents and leaving home was one of the most empowering things I ever did. My pedophile father and my raging controlling hating mother no longer got to force me into anything. The first two weeks until I
got a paycheck was hard. I ate boiled macaroni and canned cheese soup to make mac and cheese for those two weeks. I still remember, it cost 39 cents for the mac, and 29c for two cans of cheese soup. My first purchase from my paycheck was a Henry’s Hamburger. MMM. Good.

I did provide for my daughter what I never had. And she hates me for my deficiencies. The car at 16 was used, she ridiculed it to her friends. Her education was the finest engineering school in the USA and she refused to let me see grades or progress, at 18 they can do that, stop the college from releasing grades even though the parent was paying for it. She dropped out and joined the Army. The BEST thing she could have done b/c it taught her that mom wasn’t such an overbearing taskmaster (dusting/vacumning on Sat was her family chore). And deployed to Iraq showed her what real torture and miserable lives are the norm for kids over there, and don’t get me started on what is normal for girls in MOST of the world.

She now has a degree in math and English literature and earns income as a writer, while still serving in the Army. Not bad for an angry resentful kid.

Katy, who earned her degree at age 34.



you said something that resonates with me today “until we face our own participation”

I’m at 8 weeks no contact – I have some very down days, but overall I am feeling better. I will admit some days I am seized with pain and I am in tears. Other days I feel joy again, and I think freedom is in sight.

My spath sent me a message – I thought I had blocked all methods to reach me, but I missed one – and the guy is a chicken shit, he will email but not call, or he will call but not show up. Anyway, he “emailed”. I was distraught about it. And today I almost emailed him back. Somehow I have avoided it. I tell myself these stories in my head “he makes you feel wonderful, and you love him” and then on the other side I tell myself “he’s going to cause you great pain again”, which is absolutely true.

That’s all the man does. He makes me want him, and then he turns on the pain.

I haven’t responded. In past times, I think i would have re-engaged. I am, to your point, facing my own participation in his evil games, and am doing my best to not participate any more.

Thanks katy, for posting today.



Facing my own participation was one of the hardest things I had to do. I wanted to blame EVERYTHING on him and believe me (I know you do!) there is an unending list that he IS to Blame for.

But the bad part was me, handing my power away when it made no sense. I gave away myself hoping he would give back. But really, if a woman has to hope her sacrifice will mean he will come to love her, she has already lost. There is was, my proof, in the beginning of my journal “I will have to ignore a lot of Richard or I won’t have a marriage.” What A STUPID thing to write b/c I already didn’t have a marriage and spent how many years trying to get one. In my defense, I didn’t realize he was spath until a couple years after leaving him. That would have made all the dif in the world. Instead of questioning what was wrong with me and trying to fix me, I’d have cut and run. But by purposely ignoring much of his behavior, I stayed way too long enduring way too much humiliation until I was so sick I was on the path to die. But I also know, a spouse does not have to be spath in order to know they are toxic and that’s the time to leave, not when I was beaten down and discarded. No he hadn’t left the house but he might as weill have. He treated it like a hotel and I his maid. I didn’t leave any kindness, I left a nightmare.

Remembering WHO he REALLY was helped me past those times of desperate desire. There was Nothing I could do to make him be the person he was when he was not mean; that was up to his whim and gosh, living according to his whim was gonna get me killed. Stops me dead from contacting him. Now I am past the desire. And Happy for all the possibilities in my future, none of which I could look forward to while living with him.



Katy, you said so much in your post to Athena.

It really is up to us to stop the insanity by refusing to participate.

Participating can be as simple as a smile, a frown, a tear or any other expression on our faces. Spending a dime or a dollar in response to them, using an expletive, or replying to their email, is all a type of participating.

It’s not our fault that we thought they were human, so don’t take responsibility for that. Now that we know, we can choose the right response: NC.


Katydid – I am reflecting on your recent comments. Early on in my life lesson that began here at LF I wanted to blame everything on the X, I was uncovering the truth of what he was all about and felt relief that I had survived his manipulations. But I still felt a huge sense of loss despite my relief that he was gone. I had to look at myself, my life very close and examine everything that had brought me to this point. I could see how damaged I was/am and felt equally responsible for the failure of the relationship. After months/years of self examination I had to forgive myself for my participation in such a toxic relationship. That did not mean he was ‘off the hook’ for being a sociopath. I will always feel a tinge of embarrasment and humiliation for being duped/conned by someone I only wanted to love. That feeling of loss was not for him but for me, I will never be that guy again. Reality has replaced that need that was so unhealthy for me. I have found some peace that I never realized was missing.
Ok enuff reflecting, just wanted to give you a high five for getting that life lesson and finding some peace and quite in your life.


Great conversation!
In my experience, once I took the responsibility for my choices in the debacle……it empowered me to become a survivor.
My therapist pointed out key words that I was ready to hear…..and when i found myself saying them….I’d stop myself and reflect.
“HE MAKES ME” XXXXX was a biggie.
It was a hard concept for me to ‘get’……because when your hit, ofcourse you’d feel sad/hurt/mad etc….BUT….NOBODY CAN MAKE YOU FEELTHIS.
These are our feelings….NOT THIERS!

Each time I’d be forced to stop and reflect on this…..I was forced to take responsibility for MY feelings/actions etc… MY OWN forcing!
By the willingness to own my own feelings/actions etc….I was less likely to OWN anyone elses behaviors.

Like Hens… was important for me to explore MY life/choices etc….to figure out how I got to ‘today’.
Since I didn’t like my ‘todays’…..I felt I had no other option than to explore from the start to current.

Doing so provided me the explanations about myself to (hopefully) avoid taking them into my future.

I am a different person.
less easily trusting.
More likely to call bullshit.
I developed self control.
Diligence, tenacity.
A researcher.
Less likely to allow myself to be walked on.
Stand firmly in reality.
Gave up on ‘fantasy’ situations….and realized there is a price to pay for EVERYTHING.
and believe…..everything happens for a reason….and trust in that!
and I throw more stuff up into the ‘air’……to land where it may.
I realize quicker what I have control over and what I don’t.
I am more easygoing.
and the list goes on…..
I like the new ‘me’…….

I think you will too! 🙂


Sorry to quibble but must disagree with you on an important term. You were NOT EQUALly responsible for your relationship failure b/c spaths know there is no relationship possible and we had no clue b/c they do not allow equal playing fields. They are duplicious and sneaky.

We humans do typically mate and work out our parent issues within the framework of our partnerships. We all have “baggage”, it’s normal. But the sad thing that was withheld from us is that our loves, our partners KNEW from the getgo that they were only there as parasites, not to work out their baggage, nor to reciprocate love and acceptance while we worked out ours.

What I came to peace with was my choices to bury my head in the sand thinking that was how a woman “got along” in marriage. I didn’t want to be the B* or complain. But I realized by burying my head and hoping he’d come to love me, it was already too late. We don’t “earn” love from our partners. I had things backwards, there was no foundation to build on, not b/c of me but b/c of him. My part was ignoring that for so long that the consequence nearly killed me.

You Hens, were no more damaged than any of the population. And it’s healthy to want to be loved. It’s our nature to desire connection, that’s a drive that perpetuates the human species. Look at spaths. They don’t want love. They want to pull our wings off and squash us like bugs. They’re like Aliens from outer space really, they look like us but are missing essential parts.


While participating may include thinking of them, the fact is we do need to grieve, and with each new revelation grieve again and again. Without that we can’t purge and get to a place of emotional health. MY responsibility is to not HELP my spath abuse me, and that is certainly what I did when married to him. I participated in my own abuse. Talk about crazymaking! lol. mmmm.


I call dibs on your list. Fits me just fine, I only add curious, quirky, and quick to laugh.


I agree. I had thought that my feelings for my spath were reduced to contempt. But 2 or 3 nights ago I dreamt of him. In the dream, he asked me to accompany him on a drive… the dream goes on. He broke laws and lied and manipulated, in my dream. Just as I was waking up, somewhere between dreaming and waking, I realized that I had broken NC. And in doing so I had brought myself back to missing him. I really missed him for that moment. Sick.

Psychological hygiene is difficult but so important. Breaking NC, even if only in a dream, creates emotional turmoil.

I had grieved for the lie, but my dream was evidence that I could still be taken back to the denial stage. WHY did I choose to go for a drive with him, even if only in a dream?


I had a wierd dream that included the spath…….
As dreams are…..
I pushed a desk down a hilll…..and it kept going…..down the mtn. I chased it down and was worried about it hitting someone and hurting them…
It stopped behind someoens property and i noticed a beautiful, green and new Dicondra lawn I was standing on.
I layed down and rolled around in it….relishing the green soft beauty of it. As I looked up I saw a man looking from the house down at me. I felt embarrassed.
The man and wife….older, came down to the lawn… I asked them if it was new….and if it was real? He said it was plastic lawn. It was as if nothing was weird that I appeared on their property. I was accepted and we conversed like ‘family’ on an average day.
Then spath appeared carrying a small little girl about 2.
I was mortified.
The little girl ran up to me and I took her into the lake which suddenly appeared next to the lawn…..floating in a floating tube.
I swam with her to get her away from the spath, across the lake.
We came back and spath met me at the edge of the lake/lawn and said….what would I do if I I got really close….and started putting his face close to me…..I got up and left. (the little girl disappeared in my dream) I ran into the house, which became a maze of hallways. I felt secure I had lost him. I was adamant in my dream to lose him.
The man of the house appeared in one hallway and escorted me through the maze….he said spath wouldn’t find me.
He didn’t…..then I woke up.

I dream of him less and less……and kids too. It is disruptive to our daily lives after they appear in our dreams…..but I believe it’s necessary to the subconscience to process soemthing…WHAT….I don’t always know.
But they sure don’t upset me like they used to.


I’m happier.
I’m more positive.
I think of myself more often.
I too….laugh more (and feel it!)

Passen the list back to you Katy….. 🙂


Hi EB,
Hugs! Miss your bear stories…. they sure got me through a tuff holiday season last year.

Still sweating and losing hair!!! and gaining weight….. this will pass i know it will!


Ok Katydid I stand corrected again..
my list
going to bed ::)


I saw a bear last week…..ran across the street at the ski resort as kids and I drove down in the evening.
He was heading up near our house.

The other day our trash can was knocked over… said it was a stray cat…..I think it was a bear! 🙂

My neighbor has them frequently…..but the way my new place is situated…..they could be out there and i’d not know. I don’t have many windows that see out the front and the back windows don’t see the ground level due to the hillside. And when i’m in my new office, My chair sits below the window.

So…’s all by chance now! But….I still have all my cool pics and memories!

Wasn’t it you who said you had hypo T?
Your symptoms sounds about right for that! SUCKY I know!
I just got my bloodwork back this week…..not so great!
I’m affraid my dr will be calling me Monday.
It will pass…..once the meds are leveled! I told you it took me several years to level out at a good level for moi! SUCKY!

Feel better…….better times ahead!


Well Hens…..knock yourself out why don’t ya?
That’s quite a list ya wrote there…….



Yes hypoT…..
meds and uping them!!! OH how much fun!!!! Just as soon as I feel good..boom! and up they go again. tuesday is the next visit….. here I go again! I will be OK in the end. I just should not have thought it was emotional for as long as I did. I thought it was from the abuse. Some may have been. I know….. adrenal exhaustion from living on adrenalin and raw nerves…. killed my thyroid. and almost killed me!

Thanks for the bear update Too darn bad you can’t watch them come to your window like last season!


You had a really cool bear last year. What about “Molly” your dog?


Uh Oh!! Whats wrong with your blood work?


Holly- the dog…..she’s my girl!

I got ‘off base’ with my meds during the move……my stupidity!
I’m hoping that is what caused the one to go up……otherwise…’s not a good sign.
It’ll be some time…..then redo the bloodwork and if it keeps creeping up, i’ll have to go back for scans.


I’m heading off to bed…..i’ve had a cold this week, so trying to get to bed at a reasonable time.

Gnight….take care of yourself!!!!




Feel better and get rid of that cold.
Holly…. at least I was close with Molly! LOL
Sweet Dreams!


Holy Moly ~!


I hope you didn’t think I was chastising you. You are so precious to me and I don’t like thinking you ever think of yourself as less than anything, less than normal, less than entitled to good things, less than worthy of amazing love.

I confess I am projecting a little, being in the health care field for years, with our work being life/death – it was cardiac intervention – we all felt very tight together, I would do anything for my workmates. Some workmates are gay and it seemed a common thread that they believe themselves less than normal when truth is that’s a fallacy that some A* put on them. They are sexually aligned differently but all their feelings are the same (that is same for NORMAL people, not spathy’s who lack normal emotional feelings), same desires to find that special love, same need for community, same appreciation for things that give them joy, etc.

When I read your post, I probably made the mistake of projection my empathy of that disconnect that my gay friends seem to commonly feel on to you. I apologize for that and hope that you were NOT feeling that you were thinking yourself as less than anything. B/c clearly from your posts here of LF, you are everything I’d want from a dear friend. And I have some pretty high standards.


katydid – no problem dear – your right that the X was out to take advantage and exploit me, play with my mind and laugh behind my back while doing so. But as I have said before he was the catylist that opened my eyes to such behavior and helped me understand the motives of many peeps just like him..
your gay friends are very fortunate to have a kind hearted soul as you…it’s hard to undo the damage of a life time of family and society telling me I am sick and perverted, I have felt like a second class citizen most of my life because of who I am…young gay people today are so lucky that views have changed and there is so much support for them and they dont have to live a sub culture life in fear of being shunned or worse killed – for the most part anyway..
thanks for your kind words. your one of my shining stars on LF

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