By | July 20, 2007 151 Comments

The cardinal sign of sociopathy: Every sociopath ______!

Lovefraud receives many letters from people who want a sign. Readers ask, “How do I know whether or not someone is a sociopath?” There is one behavior that every sociopath engages in to extreme excess. If I were only allowed one criteria for the diagnosis I would choose this behavior. If someone does not do this thing to extreme excess he/she is certainly not a sociopath. Those of you who have been involved with a sociopath know too well what this one thing is. It is lying.

I enjoy reading old religious texts because I believe there is truly nothing new under the sun. It is comforting to get reassurance of that fact. I mentioned some time ago that female sociopaths are described in the Bible. The cardinal symptom of sociopathy is described best in the Babylonian Talmud! One source I found dated this document to the 6th century.

The Babylonian Talmud describes something called geneivat da’at (literally, theft of one’s mind, thoughts, wisdom, or knowledge), i.e., fooling someone and thereby causing him or her to have a mistaken assumption, belief, and/or impression. The sages believed that there are seven types of thieves and, of these, the most egregious is the one who “steals the minds” of people.

Anyone who has been in contact with a sociopath has had his/her mind stolen. Sociopaths do not interact with anyone without stealing a mind.

Although sociopaths are very proud of their ability to steal minds, this behavior does not make them unique, talented or special. Sociopaths are just the worst species of thief!

Many are baffled by the lying sociopaths engage in. A reader who wrote me recently commented that they lie even when the truth sounds better. Sociopaths continue to lie even after their lies are discovered. This often makes them look silly.

Sociopaths lie in order to steal the minds of others. They do this because of an unrestrained drive for power and control. This drive is present in all of their dealings with others.

The best thing to do if your mind has been stolen by a sociopath is Take it Back! Don’t have any more interactions with that person. Accept that you can never deal with a sociopath without experiencing the theft of your mind.

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“My” conman even made a big thing of pretending to think that always telling the truth was very important! He said this time and time again.
He was attempting to make sure *I* always told the truth (thereby giving him more information to help him to steal from me and otherwsie control me, and to help him blackmail me in the future if need be) while he continued to lie his head off.
It’s been pretty chilling to be able to reanalyse my memories in terms of what I now know. After more than a year, I still occasionally have a shattering new insight occur to me out of the blue about a particular action or utterance of his.


My sociopath also claimed to take the higher moral ground… funny now isn’t it?……… I also have new insights from my life with her from time to time.. her actions and what she dropped out of her mouth… and each time I remember those things, it reaffirms just what kind of evil person she is, but it also makes me think about how fooled I was, and why didn’t I fit all of those clues together at the time. She was smooth, and a expert at deception.


The conman I was involved with even lied about his lies. Sometimes he couldn’t make up his mind which lie to tell me and he would even lie about things he didn’t need to lie about. It’s like he is addicted to lying or it is the only way he knows how to communicate – if you can call it communication. He is a Master liar. After he told me that he did not have cancer, he would say that he just told me that because he wanted me to hate him that he really did have cancer. He would lie, sometimes tell the truth but then lie about it again. I don’t think I can say the word I want to say here but you can fill in the blank. It was a total “mind —-” being with him but for some reason I stuck it out for three years.
I was vulnerable when I met him. I was coming out of a bad relationship of about two years with another conman/pathalogical liar. So you think I would have learned my lesson. D.M. blindsided me with his cancer act. I wanted to help him, little did I know that I was helping him to use me.
I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I had read books, been to therapists, groups, doctors… all of that. Nothing helped.
This website has been a tremendous help to me. I now know what I was dealing with and nothing I could have done would have made things better. I think if I was to give the number 2 sign of a sociopath it would be that your love is never enough. They always want more from you and they don’t reciprocate any of it.
I often felt like he was a liar and a thief for stealing the truth from me. You put it so well. Thank you.


I thought I was done posting comments and reading but I’m not. Last night I had to tell a very nice man that I wasn’t ready to date. I hated when he asked me questions about my goals and dreams. I was abrupt and bitchy to him. I see why. Because the sociopath I was involved with asked the very same questions when we first me. And I answered them freely. He feigned interest in my life, but really he was gathering forensic data about me to construct a false dream and parade it in front of me..”look I made your dreams come true…now you are my prisoner.” I tried to explain to this date what had happened to me. But I just sounded like a bitter, disappointed woman who “got burned.” I tried to explain that no, this was different, I didn’t get burned, I got conned. But not so much conned as much as having my dreams mocked and falsely made true just to torture me. That I was in a relationship with a lie, with a carefully crafted lie.

The point is, there are no words. We can’t explain to anyone. I don’t know what is happening to me each day in this healing process of nearly a year. I am able to feel alive now. But I still I cry. I often isolate. I am angry and short tempered. I am tired and exhausted when I used to be so energentic. I have no deisre to achieve goals. I have no friends. It’s not depression, I know what that is. I am in recovery and not from a normal breakup. This feels like a fight for my life and I am fighting to become the woman I was before I met him. He never hit me. He gave me beautiful gifts and compliments. If I had to write on paper what he actually did to make me feel so bad, the paper would be blank. It was done to my soul and my psyche and it’s beyond comprehension, even to myself.

I lost faith in myself and my own dreams yet hear a voice sometimes telling me not to let him win. Not to give him what is left of my self, not to sink into past memory and wistfulness of the good days when I believed all his lies. When I believed he was the dream come true.

Maybe some woman reading this will save herself from retroactive pain. If you catch him being slick and able to talk his way smoothly, unflinchingly and convincingly out of anything…If he is able to take your hard wired woman’s intuition and twist it around so you begin to doubt yourself and everything you have ever trusted about your own take on the world…If you can’t understand why sometimes you feel invisible around him or cry without reason or the anger brews and you don’t know where it comes from. If you are giddy and believe a prince has finally galloped into your life to save you from trying to go it all alone….

Then beware. It’s really hard to live with or love with a vampire. Run while you can. They will drain your light, your blood, your soul and you won’t even realize how weakened you are, until after they are gone. You will believe the lies because every word is a lie. And when there is no truth you have no choice. That’s the problem with being with a sociopath or narcissist. You don’t know what you are in for until it’s too late. All these women on this blog probably sound so dramatic and messed up, to someone who has not suffered the aftermath. I know I would sound that way to me. None of us saw it coming.

Thank you for letting me write and feel a little better.


Sunny, I can relate to what you are going through. Although the circumstances were different, a lot of the feelings and emotions are the same. I said earlier that number 2 would be that your love would never be enough for a sociopath. I thought better of it and I think that number two would be “no empathy”. The conman that I was involved with seemed to crave empathy, couldn’t get enough sympathy from people, but he never had an ounce to give. He went so far as to pretend he had cancer to get sympathy but he never showed any sympathy. Wow, it really blows me away that I didn’t run for the hills a long time ago. Thing is, I did try to break it off with him soon after I met him. He would threaten me, make me feel bad, do whatever it took until I changed my mind. This happened a lot until I was doing it to myself. I broke off with him many times. I don’t know if it was depression or lonliness or both that would make me take him back into my life. Now I know I can’t do that any longer if I want to keep my life.


Very good article, it should be extremley beneficial to anyone within a relationship wanting to see perhaps who that person is.
With my pyscho, he would flat out deny he said or did something literally after he actually did say or do this particular thing, this trait in itself will be something to look out for in the future.

Although this is helpful information, it is still difficult to know what are the lies and deception. This is where the challenge comes in. I believe one must still do the detective work in order to uncover this.

This answers one lingering quesiton I have had since ending the relationship 7 mos. ago. I have reason to believe he will try and return to me and I always wondered how could that be when he knows I had caught on to him when we broke up? The part about the “lying continues even though the lies were discovered”, it now make sense and yes, it does make them look silly.


I can agree with all of you on one thing. If someone has not had a personal and up close relationship with one of these sociopaths, there is absolutely no explaining to them the feeling you have when if finally hits home, Ï’ve been conned”!

In my situation, We dated for a few months before I put my house up for sale and moved in with him, and we married 14 months later. I knew he has some issues with his ego and was a total control freak, but he seemed so good to me, Like Sunny’s situation, he baught me expensive jewelry, flowers and complimented me all the time. (I paid for the jewelry in the long run, but that was another one of his twists). We would have had our 4th wedding anniversary in 6 days.

I had a feeling he was lying about a lot of things, but no way to really prove it. Every shred of mail he got in it went through the shredder immediately, so I never knew what kind of bank account balances he kept, loans, nothing, that is until I moved out into this apartment. I have found out tons of lies. I have no contact with him. I refuse to answer his calls. I have such a hard time trying to wrap my mind around the fact that I fell in love with someone that doesn’t even exist, and that this man I shared my life, my family and my money with never had one bit of love or affection for me. I know how much I am hurting, and I wonder if he is hurting too, and then I think, no, he doesn’t hurt, because he didn’t love to begin with. Very hard to understand. I talk to my sister and my kids, but I know they don’t understand my hurt really, nor my obsession to find out the truth about him.

I went to a therapist last week, to see if maybe my husband was right after all, if I was losing my mind and needed some help. After 50 minutes of explaining the relationship and the abrupt close to the relationship, she assured me that I was not crazy, but very hurt and bruised from a very abusive relationship. I just wish he would leave my mind. Unfortunately, I am going to have to withstand mediations in September and at least 2 court dates before my divorce may be final in February, and until then I just feel stuck.

I don’t even try to explain this relationship with just anyone I meet. As said earlier, I think we just come off as bitter about the ex. And if you tell someone, “My ex is a psychopath” they are like “Yea, mine too”. But I don’t try to explain.

I think the important thing is getting out the information about these people. I wish so badly there was someway to put out an Internet dating black list or something.

Coukno, the thing is about “he knows I had caught on to him” I don’t think they care. The therapist told me they feel no shame, guilt, remorse, embarrasment, no love , no hate. Just anger when they dont get their way, like a spoiled child. My ex stays in touch with his wives, (the ones that are still alive), even the second wife that divorced him in 1985.

I love this site. It is such a great place to come and read about such chillingly similar stories to mine. I am so glad I can come here when I am feeling isolated and feel that somehow there is a connection. I hope others will be able to stumble on this site as I did.

A sociopath look silly?? Heavens, didn’t yours tell you he was perfect in every way? Genetically impossible for them to look silly!! (In Jest)

My kids were telling me “Mom, be careful”. I should have listened to my kids!


Hi Summerthyme,
Mine worked up a cancer story at the end too! In an effort to extract more money from me. But right at this point my real intellect was (just) beginning to re-emerge out from under the brainwashed state I later realised I had been brought to. The story did not “work” for him financially – I had just enough self-determination at that point to say no. I later came to realise there really was no cancer.

We have stories on our site of predators/ sociopaths literally profiling and learning the life stories of their victims and then INCORPORATING them as their own! and using them on new victims.

Sometimes they even co-opt their victim’s illnesses for sympathy.

It is shocking to see the similarites in patterns of behavior with these guys. And they never ever admit what they’ve done. Ever.

It’s like someone reaching down your throat and pulling out your soul.

Great post Dr. Leedom


Hi amr,
Fighter is right, it is shocking to see the similarities with these guys. A good book that I read is Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft. He counseled abusive men. His insights are very good also. But even after I read that book and the Betrayal Bond, I still kept seeing Donnie. I think it’s like a disease you have to overcome when you are in a relationship like that. You’ll either get out and get better or you will totally lose yourself and be destroyed. My girls liked him at first. They felt sorry for him too, believed his lies about cancer and even after the truth about that came out they were still forgiving and gracious with him but after a while it was apparent that this was his MO. Eventually they hated him for what he was doing to me. They tried to make me see what a jerk he was a long time ago. I knew they were right, but it was difficult to leave it. like an addiction.

I was just another lie in his life of lies. He lived a double life (or more).

I don’t answer his calls but I can’t believe he even tries to call me. In his eyes he must think that he’s done nothing wrong. He justifies everything he does.

looserchooser, there is a site called Don’t date him girl, or something like that. I love this site too and I think it’s helped me stay on track this time of “No Contact” because that is the only way to deal with him.


there is a place. I found my narcisist already posted on Wish I knew about it before, but that’s part of the recovery, visitings sights like that. There’s also You can put a name if you want and a warning so that if someone meets them and knows to search around they might find him/her there. I used to think it was cheesy and wrong, not anymore. To see other women write comments under the name of a man that you were involved with is very comforting. And maybe it will save another woman the heart ache.


Quite simply, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head!


This appears to be the one criteria that I think exemplifies this class of people.

Hey, I’ve got to visit a new site or two and I am glad to see that there is more organized fighting back.


It is so true that continuing to lie after they have been found out just makes them look “silly”. I approached my sociopath with emails that he had written to a girl he was cheating on me with and even with me sitting there with emails in hand he tried at least three lies, one right after the other until he finally gave up. He had the nerve to try to tell me that he had written them to me (they were obviously not to me and nothing written in them pertained to me) and then when that didn’t work he was stupid enough to try to tell me that he had written them to himself???!! What a total moron! In the email he was saying that the person he was writing to was like a ten minute movie that he wished was seven hours and then a sequel! Sure, he wrote that to himself. Idiot. I can actually laugh about that one. I broke up with him that very night and I haven’t seen him or heard from him for over a year and I’m perfectly content with that. He is simply someone else’s problem now as far as I’m concerned.

Sorry we have heard some really bad stuff about Womansavers from a number of ex-members.

If you come to OUR SITE – on the right hand column there’s a list called EXPOSE THEM. There’s tons of sites on the web, including ours, that do that.

Remember do NOT do it for revenge but to help the next possible victim & society at large. And only post the truth.


Sunny, we got hit by the same guy, just in separate bodies.

I thought I was loved, even spoiled, until the day he told me what I think of as the Last Lie. Yeah, in capitals. It was such a stupid lie, one I would have had to be soooo dumb to believe, and something I could even PROVE was a lie. Something snapped, he always had an excuse for everything, and they were such small things…

But after 14 years I was broke, sick, living in filth with no money and few friends…those all on the internet. I didn’t even see it. Sure, I wondered why he kept the place a pig sty. Now I see it was because I couldn’t invite anyone over. All those accidental “mistakes” with my medications, they nearly killed me, and would have if people hadn’t gotten suspicious. I had even asked him straight out if he was having an affair AND BELIEVED HIM WHEN HE SAID NO! I didn’t even check it out, I trusted him so much. But it only took a few minutes to find out once I knew he was lying about everything else. He even used exactly the same words to her as he just had to me the night before. Internet sex is perfect for him, no real involvement, less chance of being caught.

Everyday I have to watch what I think. I accepted so much, about such little things. Whether an appliance works, when the pharmacy is open (a LOT more than he said it was!). I know he lied about me to other people too, further cutting me off from the world. Now I really now what “blind” faith means.

He hides behind a Mr. Nice Guy image. We used to joke about that, and about his always having an excuse…back when I had a friend. Now I know WHY that “nice guy” image is so important to him. He targets women who are ill or have emotional problems. It’s not money or sex, it’s control he wants. He wants the “oh he’s so wonderful, taking care of her like that” trip. And he’s hard to detect because he seems so sweet, never a harsh word, little presents, little kindnesses. Only when you look back do you see just how “little” those things were. A friend said “he never refuses you anything” and I thought, even back then “that’s because I know what I can ask for.” He rarely refused me anything. He agreed to almost everthing I wanted. Then he did exactly what he wanted, the promises didn’t happen, but he would distract me with some other sweet thing, or such a good excuse…

I’ve been kicking myself lately because I gave him all the information on how exactly to hurt me the most. At least now I know I’m “normal” on something.

I can’t help but wonder what story he is giving the new women. I’m willing to bet I was the love of his life who died tragically, after years of his careful nursing and sacrifice.

When I confronted him with his lies, when he couldn’t fake it any more, all traces of Mr. Nice Guy disappeared. He showed his true self, and it’s a good thing my daughter was there at the time, or I would have thought I had delusions, he was so completely different. And what he said when I asked him why he told me all those lies? “I’m a nice guy, I didn’t want to hurt you…”

Nope, just kill me slowly by tampering with my medications and drugging me. I still don’t know if I’m going to survive this. But at least if I don’t, he won’t get the satisfaction of knowing it.


When I was going through my custody case with my ex we had to meet with lawyers and the family court officers. During these meetings my ex would boldly accuse me of some lie and then when noone was looking, he would laugh at me as if to say, “ha! ha!” Two times I tried to point this out to the group. I said, “He just laughed at me!” I wanted them all to see that he was lying. My ex looked so surprised when I pointed out his laughter and denied it, acting so earnest! My lawyer told me not to say it again because it made me look immature. I ended up not looking directly at my ex throughout the remainder of our court appearances, but I often sensed him trying to make eye contact.


I think, for me, the hardest thing in acknowledging that everything was a lie – was that I couldn’t “fix” it or excuse it. I had to take it on the chin – that I had been conned – sucked dry by some horrible spider – that I was now an (almost) empty husk – a trophy to be left hanging in his web among all the others – while he toyed with the next victim(s).

The lies were sometimes so small – but they built up a picture I wanted to believe – which in retrospect had no foundation. On the other hand, sometimes the lies were so blatant that had he been on a stage with a microphone, the audience would have been rolling in the aisles. The inconsistencies were often breath-taking. If the inconsistencies were pointed out, he would laugh them off (just testing to see if you were listening) or he would accuse me of imagining or hearing things which didn’t happen. When someone virtually tells you that you are going mad, your attention is diverted from them to yourself – did that really happen? Did I misinterpret what I saw or heard? Am I going round the twist?

This can be a very isolating experience – especially if everyone else thinks he is “Mr Wonderful” (he actually captioned one of his photos this way for the funeral “order of service” when he learnt he was dying of lung cancer).

I would add a third criteria – being kept off balance – never knowing what is fact or fiction. Your belief in your own understanding, perceptions, instincts, education, experiences, judgement are put at jeopardy. Your picture of how the world – and your own mind – works, are un-balanced. It can be exciting, addictive – but inevitably disorienting and destructive.

Anyone who has not been in the spider’s web cannot truly understand the hurt that is done to the victim’s core being. On this website there are people who do understand. Thankyou!!!!


I had my dealings with one of these Sciopaths/Narcissist people. These people are not real. They are Emotional Vampires. They will steal everything you have from your hard earned money to your mental state and leave you with nothing. They will leave you thinking that it is all your fault why the relationship did not work out. These Mortal Lucifers will use anything and everything against you. Beware.

will be okay

Mine was so good at lying and playing “Mr. perfect, nice guy” That I never even realised nearly everything he told me was a lie. Now that I know the truth and exposed him, his lies are that I’m crazy, etc…

It is very hard to explain what we’ve gone through, you can actually see people’s eye’s glaze over and you realise how crazy you sound.

There are several cheater exposing websites. I posted my ex on all of them to try to warn other women. The way I see it, he may convince women that I am just crazy & posted him out of spite, but atleast it will be in the back of their minds making it harder to ignore the red flags and gut feelings. They also may not so blindly accept everything he tells them.

The sites are: datingpsychos, playersandpsychos, cheaterdb, womansavers, and dontdatehimgirl.

Moving on said:
“He hides behind a Mr. Nice Guy image. We used to joke about that, and about his always having an excuse”back when I had a friend. Now I know WHY that “nice guy” image is so important to him. He targets women who are ill or have emotional problems. It’s not money or sex, it’s control he wants. He wants the “oh he’s so wonderful, taking care of her like that” trip. And he’s hard to detect because he seems so sweet, never a harsh word, little presents, little kindnesses. Only when you look back do you see just how “little” those things were. A friend said “he never refuses you anything” and I thought, even back then “that’s because I know what I can ask for.” He rarely refused me anything. He agreed to almost everthing I wanted. Then he did exactly what he wanted, the promises didn’t happen, but he would distract me with some other sweet thing, or such a good excuse””

UMMMM This is EXACTLY how mine operated!!! Yes distraction is what it was… ugh… what a loser!

Oh well… I am curious to see where his life ends up in a year… moron… he had it so good with me… we could have had a house – he could have gone to school — he just wanted to take the easy (sleazy) way out.

Let’s see all the things I hate about him….

1. He sweated so much it literally dripped from his armpits which grossed me out.

2. He always smelled a little off.

3. He couldn’t hold a job for more than 3 months.

4. His chronic cough from smoking so much pot.

5. His lies about EVERYTHING.

6. They way his stomach hanged over in places during sex.

7. How he never properly cleaned his ears.

8. How he talked through the side of his mouth.

9. His screeching voice when he was angry or telling a lie or denying a lie.

10. The stupid way he walked like a punk.

11. The way he pouted and batted his eyes to get his way.

Ugh I can’t think of anymore right now.

He was goodlooking and has the most intense blue eyes you will ever see in your life.

Though I am sure they were like sharks eyes… cold and lifeless.

Maybe he is just a CHILD and I just couldn’t stand being in a relationship with a child.

I hate myself.


My 16 year old son has been in juvenile hall 5 times this year. He was just in for a month from after Thanksgiving to right after Christmas but then the felony charges were dropped so he got out and gloated about what he had done. He tried for a couple of days to be good (I think) but then yesterday I noticed that my other son’s car was missing (while he was on vacation) so I found it parked up the block and a duplicate key on my sociopath son’s dresser. I called the police again and had him arrested right from his bed. What is different this time is that usually he tells the truth, omitting anything that has anything to do wtih his part in it. This time, he is flat out lying through his teeth and blaming me for his actions. This is crazy making!!! I can’t even go visit him because why would I subject myself to all of his mind games? I don’t know if there is any help for him but I’ve asked his PO to order a phychiatric evaluation.


As I keep reading all these comments, I’m continually amazed at how many of us have been conned by lies that we took for truth. I read in the news where the woman from Georgia has apparently been killed and they have the man in custody who they suspect is her killer. As I was reading that, I thought of how often we tell our children to not talk to strangers. Then as adults, we talk with strangers to find our likes and dislikes and see if we are compatible enough to form a relationship. This woman apparently befriended this man, and now she is dead. Even if we know the signs will we recognize them, if we are broken within ourselves and just looking for human compassion and friendship? I think that’s where we all need to be strong within ourselves and not allow another to determine our boundaries. I hadn’t guarded my heart because I didn’t think I needed to guard it against someone who said they loved me. That doesn’t matter. God tells us to guard our hearts and to not put our trust in man. He says who can know a man’s heart. It’s deceitful above all things. That’s not just man, but human. Here’s a good site that tells of this very thing. The heart is filled with so much evil unless it’s been emptied and refilled with good.

This young woman is most likely gone. They have found 3 bloodied fleece tops of hers. How horrible for her parents. How many others are out there with the same intent, who appear harmless. This man in question is 61. Could be someone’s grandfather. I know for me, from all these readings and what I see and hear in my own living, that I feel lucky to have escaped in one piece, with only my credit rating and emotions messed up. I can recover. Those less fortunate can’t. How well do we know each other? It took me 31 years to finally get some semblance of truth out of my husband. It was my own sleuthing that revealed truth about my friend. He lied about so many things or told half truths that couldn’t be confirmed, but just didn’t feel right to me. I escaped that, too.

In my job, I talk with strangers everyday. I have had more offers than I ever imagined from total strangers. They will move in one day. The next day they will come into my office and want to ask me a question. I always figure it’s to ask where the dumpster is or how much the washing machines take, but the question most times is, will I have sex with them. They don’t even know me. I’m the landlord, they are the tenant. Strangers. They just don’t care. They are out there crossing everyone’s boundaries. I let them down gently, but they don’t have a clue as to what I’m thinking. I stay to myself and most of them think I’m boring. Maybe so, but I’m alive and don’t have the disease of the moment.

Strangers. Strange. Hidden agenda. How well do we know anyone? We really need to stay alert. This hiker in question even had her dog with her. He’s alive, but apparently she isn’t. All because of a stranger she must have befriended. So much evil intent. No wonder they are having taser parties.


This is out of topic but I really want to share with you and know if someone went through similar experience. The more I read the more I find astonishing revelations about my ex behaviors. I was reading on Dr Hare book that Sociopaths have unrealistic goals in life and no idea how to achieve or the education needed to accomplish them. This is so true about my ex. During the time we’re together he changed at least six or seven times career goals and education plans as I can remember. He works in construction and one day he told me how he wanted to be a police officer because he didn’t want to work in construction all his life. I decided to go with him to the police headquarters and find out the requirements for that. He got the papers went to some workshops and everything, seemed so interested, I remember that one of the requirements to enter the police College it was to have finished grade 12. He decided to sign up to finish is grade by correspondence on a part time fashion. He started and everything but after awhile gave up the education and decide to go to gym to get some more muscle because for him that was the most important requirement because he convinced himself that they would eventually accept him because of his physical fitness. Can you believe it? Then he wanted to be a bus driver and work for a public transportation company. Again we search the internet for the requirements and he even told me he went to the Main office to know about the requirements for that and so on. And nothing, again the idea just went dawn the drain after a while. Then he told me about his dream to be a pilot and even told me of his idea of quitting his job and going to the unemployment services to see how much he would get from them and borrow money and apply for the pilot course, I thought it was an absurd idea, but didn’t say anything because I knew he would not accomplish that, and I was right. Another time he came to me, and this time seemed really decided to change his career and goals, told me that he wanted to quit his job and go back to school to do a College degree in Office Management, at this time I didn’t waist my time helping or giving advice because I knew he would not fulfill his expectations as it happen before and I was right. Then he told me he wanted at least to do a specialty in the area he was working which is construction. I decided to help him again, went to pick up a College book with the continuing education programs and we’re looking and see which program he would like to take (we look at different types of electricity programs and so on), and it was decided that this time he will sign up for one of the electricity programs. Did he accomplish it? NO!! What I don’t understand (I read it somewhere that usually sociopaths are very smart people), and he is a smart guy for other things, how come some of them (which is my ex case) can’t accomplish things in life the way normal people do? Looks like they like short cuts for everything. Are they really smart?

Sunny, you said:

“I thought I was done posting comments and reading but I’m not. Last night I had to tell a very nice man that I wasn’t ready to date. I hated when he asked me questions about my goals and dreams. I was abrupt and bitchy to him. I see why. Because the sociopath I was involved with asked the very same questions when we first me. And I answered them freely. He feigned interest in my life, but really he was gathering forensic data about me to construct a false dream and parade it in front of me..”look I made your dreams come true”now you are my prisoner.” I tried to explain to this date what had happened to me. But I just sounded like a bitter, disappointed woman who “got burned.” I tried to explain that no, this was different, I didn’t get burned, I got conned. But not so much conned as much as having my dreams mocked and falsely made true just to torture me. That I was in a relationship with a lie, with a carefully crafted lie.

The point is, there are no words. We can’t explain to anyone. I don’t know what is happening to me each day in this healing process of nearly a year. I am able to feel alive now. But I still I cry. I often isolate. I am angry and short tempered. I am tired and exhausted when I used to be so energentic. I have no deisre to achieve goals. I have no friends. It’s not depression, I know what that is. I am in recovery and not from a normal breakup. This feels like a fight for my life and I am fighting to become the woman I was before I met him. ”

Wow. This hit home. I try sometimes to tell people – even my biological father who walked with me every step of the way through this crazy relationship after the guy returned, who I confided every detail to as they happened – the gaslighting, the mental cruelty, emotional abuse, crazy actions — and even my dad doesn’t get it.

Must be human nature not to know what do when confronted with evil that’s incomprehensible. People want to find a way to file these experiences into a cabinet of normality. BUT THEY DON’T FIT.

Which is why we spent so much time turning these people over and over in our minds, trying to figure out what it all meant. It didn’t fit! And some people, rather than try to figure it out, merely ignore or dismiss what does not fit.

When alone, I often feel very much as you described: my dreams were promised to me for the sole purpose of destroying them and laughing as it happened. That was it. There was no real relationship, no planned marriage on his part, no real love. He just said all that — the higher the pedestal he could build, the more fun he’d have watching me fall – and the more likely I’d get bruised.

The catch was that I never could trust him this time. I tried. I wanted to. There’s not a soul alive that I don’t trust aside from my abusive family member and sometimes, I even believe what HE says. It’s not in my nature not to want so much to trust someone, particularly someone I love. So you know, I was disappointed in myself, at first, for not being able to trust him and let go of the past.

By the end, when Mr. Hyde had returned full-on, it seemed like the not trusting thing, along with talking to trusted friends every day about what he was doing, were the two most self-protective acts I’d ever managed. Almost all by accident. Kinda proves the notion that God looks after the very young, the very old and/or the very stupid! 🙂 He sure was watching out for me.

Please promise yourself to try and trust again. Otherwise, you know, the Bad Man wins. You don’t want that. You’re far too valuable to let him take off with your mind and then KEEP IT. That’s what he wants. That’s not what you want.

I spent more than ten years of my life in love with an illusion. When he and I met, I was a very cute, newly single 28. What I wouldn’t give to have all that time back. He’s not getting a minute more of my life, heart or mind — because it’s all a wasteful bit of smoke and mirrors fakery with those S men.



My ex is the same only he would accomplish some of his goals and then quit because it didn’t pay enough, too stressful, or the company (he used this one a couple of times)was going to transfer him or shut down.

He was in a band before I met him, but stopped playing all together. It was for noble reasons of course. He didn’t want to end up like the older guys in his band. So he went to tech school and got a job. He told me he had left that job because they took advantage of him. He also told me, after we were engaged, that he had his boss up against the wall the day he left.

You know what? I’ll be here all day if I write all the details because there is so much. I’ll try an abridged version.

We met in 1988 and by the time we were married in ’90 he was on his 4th job. He went back to the job where he had the boss against the wall and stayed there 2 yrs. Then moved us(at the time I thought I was making the decision with him, but it was lies and manipulation that made me go) out of state because his company was closing, but he didn’t know when. We were there 6 months and his job wasn’t working out so he cried on old bosses shoulder and got his job back. We moved across country back home. He stayed there for another yr and a half. Then got hired in same field by another co. (1st co. finally starting to close) He got fired after a few months . It wasn’t his fault though-of course. Then he went from job to job. I can’t even remember how many. He looked into nursing school and a physician asst during this time. Didn’t do either. Then he got a job that he kept for probably a couple of yrs until they were going to transfer him because the co. was leaving town. To this day the co. is still in the area. Two more jobs followed until he got a county job. I thought finally everything was going to be OK. Three yrs later he couldn’t take the stress anymore (the stress was also his reason for treating our son and me badly) and started a side business so he wouldn’t have to work overtime in the jail. He ended up quitting the jail and going full time with the business. The story of how he got me to be OK with him doing this is a whole other story that I didn’t even figure out until he moved out. During the next four years he had 2 different co. in same kind of business and one other type in two different locations because the 1st was failing. So basically a business a yr. He also was sued at least 3 times and we had to declare bankruptcy.(twice if you count converting to a different chapter) After all that he moved us out of state again. He waited until everything was set with his job and then he told me he wanted to try separation. Oh wait! I forgot he quit his first job after the move because of a sure thing that he didn’t get because he failed the lie detector test. He did that while I was back home taking care of family business when my father died. He hasn’t been at his current job for 2 yrs yet, but he’s already talking about moving again. His gf’s house is for sale. Actually, he started talking about moving after a few months there when we were still together and I said no. My counselor said that me finally getting stronger and my mother being out of money is why he finally just left.

When I see this written down it’s so embarrassing that I believed all his lies and sob stories. I really thought our family was the most important thing to him and he was trying so hard to better himself for us. He blamed me for all his job troubles when he left. He said and I quote ” It’s all your fault I did everything that I did. I was searching for something because I was so lonely and empty.”

That’s the abridged version!


I have just read every one of these posts. Took some time but….wow. What drew me is the “stealing the mind”.

For months after I left (18 months clear now) I would talk about what happened to close friends or family, and get really frustrated and angry that they weren’t understanding. I used that very expression, said the man “stole my mind, my thoughts, and my dreams and made them his”..people looked at me as though I was mad, I was obviously hysterical.

Sunny, I read your post at the beginning about 3 times just to make sure I hadn’t written it. I could have.

I don’t talk about it to anyone anymore other than to say I had a bad experienced with an unbalanced man. That seems enough.

It is so reassuring to have somewhere you can say these things and have a reaction of “ah yes, I know exactly what you mean”.

If it helps any of you to know this, I am coming through it finally. He no longer has so much control in my mind. It amazed me how long that continued even after I had left him. They seem able to invade your mind even a million miles away, with no contact, once they have a grip on you. They seem to leave footprints all over your soul, your heart and your mind and you just can’t erase them.

For months I still found him in my head, I could feel his “disapproval” or “disappointment” and for months I had imaginary conversations with him where I ranted and raved at him about the things he had done. I knew it was probably far more effective to do it that way, because to say any of it to him was a waste of time and energy and I would be left emotionally shredded while he just had nothing to say, no compassion, no empathy, just took it in and delivered the ulitimate insult – just completely ignored me as if I didn’t exist.

We all believed them and we shouldn’t feel bad about that. They are skilled masters at what they do and we are just decent folk not looking to exploit, manipulate, lie or cheat our way through life, and so we don’t expect others to either. We aren’t looking for it, we aren’t necessarily even aware it’s out there other than in films, books or the news. We weren’t born with a manual under our arm saying “watch out for the monster – he is real!” and so we are caught off guard and our decent moral spirit is abused and used and almost broken by someone disarmingly charming, totally believable, and highly dangerous. Look at how many of us have had a shared experience, felt the same pain, suffered the same aftermath. We can’t all be idiots can we. They are just as successful as the stealthy thief who can invade your home and steal your valuables without you even noticing.

They steal your mind. Only you can get it back, they won’t give it to you, but they sure will play with you for as long as you let them, and you will never ever get the better of them. Why? Because you are not one of them, you don’t think in the same twisted way they do, you don’t abuse people, you respect, and have a conscience. That’s a good thing to my mind. So don’t try. Just take every measure you can to learn from it, and to heal yourself, and to finally get control of your ship back. You will. It just takes time. I am actually a stronger person in a lot of ways now than I ever was. I see things much more clearly and have learned that to hold anger and bitterness about it any longer is holding me back and giving him power.

I now just concentrate on me, what i want, and making myself feel good. It has taken time, it’s been painful at times, but I am winning – so you can too.

With care


PS – Fighter’s site is brilliant I can vouch for it. So is the team that moderate and give guidance on it. It has helped me no end to understand this sick kind of individual. I recommend you visit.

righteous woman

“Steal your mind” – excellent way to put it. I would “rehearse” in my mind how I would defend myself, intellectually. This became a horrible habit that consumed me. I mean, I didn’t do this with other people in my life. If I wanted to talk to them, I called them, we exchanged thoughts and feelings and we went on about our day.

When he was gone, I found myself still doing it… looking for the right words to put together to get the closure that I needed so much. I finally accepted that it just wasn’t going to happen.

When I was younger, and Naive, I over-talked it with friends, and looking back, I wish I could have just kept it zipped!! Oh well, live and dwell on it, is what the Sociopath wanted me to do anyway, so that I would question my own sanity. I am glad I found this site….We can help to heal each other, like AA or NA – we know the pain, the cravings, the questioning of ourselves and the destructiveness we had in our lives.


This thread is the best on the site I feel. “Theft of the mind” that sums it up doesn’t it?. I have been thinking about starting a support group in my area for victims of sociopaths. I imagine I would have one hell of a turn out! When I read other’s stories I realize my own situation is not nearly as horrible as so many here. Yet, this man who I was involved with for just under a year has managed to crawl into my mind and under my skin and no matter what I do, I can’t seem to get him out! I realize he could not do that without my permission–and I feel foolish that I can’t just make it stop. I think we’ve all rehashed all the details over and over in our minds ad nauseum–it is just something I think we need to accept that will never make sense–ever! Because the way these sociopath’s interact is nothing close to normal. We are playthings to them, when they become bored with us or we become too difficult they move on and never look back. If they do try to contact us it is for their own entertainment and they will just as easily move on again. Everyone here is right when they say: “No Contact”! Otherwise we are giving them satisfaction and who wants to do that? We will never have closure–they will never feel that they were wrong even if they are capable of understanding it intellectually. Still, just like you, I find myself checking my e-mail and cell phone hoping for that one message that will give me what I am looking for–proof that I was right about him. I will only be able to find that within myself–it will never come from him. How much easier it would be to have him call, tell me lies–believe them and have one big happy ending. Yes, he is the worst kind of thief. Just like the magic tricks he loved to entertain everyone with, he is nothing but smoke and mirrors. He has created an illusion that fooled me and many others, but in the end, he has only fooled himself and created one big empty life for himself. Depressing. I realize I am one of the lucky ones to have found this out when I did, but I am going through hell too. It’s amazing how fast they can perpetuate all this damage. Before you know what hit you, the damage has been done. The only thing that is helping me now is this blog and writing poetry (the best I have ever written). I will also write scathing e-mails to him and save them as drafts. I sent him a couple of the poems–boy he must have gotten off on that! We must become good actresses ourselves and create the illusion to them that we are better than ever and that we never look back–living well is the best revenge after all! I’m glad we have found each other on this hellish journey. Peace.


Today is 1 yr since my ex told me he wanted to leave. I actually was doing Ok I was getting angry again and determined not to let him steal any more of my life. I was trying to be patient with myself. I’m not going to get over more than 18 yrs of abuse overnight. I just came from my counselor ‘s and we got on the subject of responsibility. I brought up a post from here. I understand I couldn’t have married anybody else other than someone like him because of my family of origins and that good and bad are subjective. I understand he is sick and he justifies everything so he feels like he’s doing what he needs to. But I can’t look at it like that because now I’m just sitting here crying feeling sorry for him because he was abused and he’s disordered etc etc. and all of this is what comes from abuse. I know I’m responsible for my denial and my depression and anxiety and tolerating his nonsense and my dependence on him. But we were supposed to be on the same page -to stop the cycle of abuse and not pass it on to our children. He told me whatever he needed to to suck me in and I needed to be loved so I fell for it. How does he justify all the lies and stealing most of my mother’s money(if you lie and manipulate and deceive to get it and leave your family homeless when it’s gone isn’t that stealing?) I never had to question whether my father was abusive. It was obvious. I had little self esteem and everything else the comes from verbal abuse, but I didn’t feel crazy. This experience has me questioning everything to the point of ridiculousness. When he moved out and he got a new cell phone. He had the bill sent to our house and he had put a bunch of ring tones on it . He was 42 yrs old at the time.

Some of the lyrics to two of them are:

I’m the leading man
And the lies I weave are oh so intricate, oh so intricate


We will own your thoughts
We’ll own the song stuck in your head
We’ll leave you kicking and screaming
So you can thank us in the end

A year ago these words hurt but helped me realize that I never knew him, that everything was a lie. Now I think I do thank him and the gf in the end for snapping me out of denial. Maybe I’m close to forgiveness. Maybe it all just happened and maybe he’s so sick that he actually believes his own lies and can’t tell the truth from fiction. I do know I never lied to him. I never tried to hurt him and I gave and gave until it hurt me. He lied to me. He tried to hurt me and he took and took until I had nothing left that he wanted.


Distraught- I think a suport group is a great idea and I have thought of the same myself. I am in NJ.
It is true how they penetrate until they seep back into your thoughts. So many times I have to push him out. And many times I fail! I can admit that a day,hour even minute wont go by that thoughts…any thoughts of him are in my head. I am in a battle for my sanity at times. I conjure up fantasy scenerios in my head about running into him or him calling. I play over what I will or want to say. I re-live the lies, manipulation and just sick ways about him. I also dwell on the little nice things he would say and how he knew exactly what to say that made me stay. I know that I have become stronger though. I havent contacted him and it has been easier not to txt or call. I know what is right and it is not him! Nothing about him is right, his mind games on me or his mind at all! He cant be healed, he cant change, he will never be a good person. But I am healing, changing and always was a good person. I WIN


change06: the only thing holding me back from the support group idea is that I’m afraid it will attract sociopaths! I could just see them using it as a resource! As tempted as I am, I have not contacted him again. I did see him last Friday, he decided to attend my send-off party after work (my last day of having to see him at my former job)–he was witty and charming as ever and since no one there knows about our relationship he didn’t need to worry about appearances. He spent the end of evening telling a group of women at the table the hell he went through a couple of years ago when he got involved with a woman at work who was a sociopath! He had to take 6 weeks off on disability because of thoughts of suicide. God, that’s rich! I really wanted to send an e-mail after that, but I knew it would never make a difference–he will never see the irony. It will never change his behavior. I am hoping that since I am changing jobs, I will be able to get him out of my head once and for all. Although I’m sure that is wishful thinking. It helps me to read Secret Monster’s blog from time to time–I feel like I can climb into the head of sociopath and get some understanding. It also keeps me from communicating–because I don’t want to give him the satisfaction–he’s already gotten too much at my expense already.


Distraught- Hi, I too read Secret Monters blog it keeps me in “their” mind.
I am glad to hear you are changing jobs!! Excellent, another step for you!
You must have been gridding your teeth listening to him talking about being involved with a sociopath. How hilarious really. Fight your tempation though, his appearance could be one of his “tricks” for you. A little lure to suck you back-even for a moment. Not good!
No contact, no contact, no contact!! It is so true and it is the first and foremost thing we must do for ourselves!!
I hear you about a group attracting fellow S’s. How scary!


I too work with my S. I dont have to see too much of him, but any site of him is too much. I feel so weak inside yet I feel so determined to feel nothing. I wish I could change jobs, but I cant justify losing a good job because of him.

I too read Secret Monster’s blog. It is very disturbing to me to read – I cant believe sometimes that a human being lives with those dark thoughts and evil ways. Yet, it helps me to keep my S in perspective and to remember what I’m dealing with – that is so very expertly hidden.


Ellejay. You hit the nail on the head for me. Ive said here that I still feel – after 6 months of finishing things – that I have been robbed. Robbed of peace of mind.

Like many others here, I would consider myself a kind nurturing woman, he used and abused that. He spun his sordid fantasy and after many difficult relationships in my life, this has been the worst ever. At the finish he ran for the hills, determined to hide from me, as I was demanding answers. I said I wanted answers, he said he didnt want to see me presently, I said that if I didnt get answers he could remove his stuff from my place. I returned home to find him frantically stuffing his things in bags determined to avoid me, but I called home early. He gruffly said he had ‘no comment’ and he left. I wished at that point I had a big burly brother to smash his face. I had no option but to write to him and I called him a deceitful coward. Everything about him was cowardly, the lies he told me, not only about his present goings on, but his past life, all cleverly spun to portray him as victim.

Even at the end, he couldnt face up to his misdemeanours, which he was carryiing out in secret, the women at work, (many of them married) he was lining up. I rang one of them, and he had sent sexual messages to her on my phone (he asked to lend from me) (cheek!), she absolutely denied it, saying they were work mates. After that he sent a family member round to tell me not to contact him and that I would be done for harrassment – fancy getting his sister to finish off his dirty work. She even told me that he had mentioned the woman at work and that he had contemplated a relationship, but because she was married he declined – he was even conning his sister with his dirty lies and she collaborated, possibly out of duty to him. Abuse by proxy.

What a loser, he has nothing, a man in mid life, who owns probably 3 or 4 boxes of stuff for his life’s work. In fact, when he moves accommodation, he throws alot of it away. He keeps light, no committments or possessions, he ups and leaves and moves to other areas.He has nothing else, no car, no passport, no money. I must have been crazy to think I could build a life with him.

He leaves a trail of broken relationships but I believe that he cons himself into thinking that each new woman will be the right one and that all the past women have defects. He is perfect of course. This is part of his destructive cycle. These people should come with a health warning written on their foreheads.

Tami Newman

Beverly: Mine literally ran for the hills, too. He even came back, broke into my house destroying a door beyond repair, grabbed a few belongings and took off. We had just made arrangements 2 days before for him to come and collect his belongings. He convinced everyone that I was “dangerous”. Really?!?!? Give me a flippin’ break! He NEVER returned for the rest of his “junk”–yes it was literally junk! I gave him 90 days after our divoce was final to collect it and on day 91–12 loads went straight to the landfill. They don’t care anything about their previous belongings because they know they’re about to sucker yet another victim into giving them what they want. They wear us out–take all from us they can get–and then start fresh. My ex s has a real sucker now. She’s barely 30, was married to the same man since she was 17 and divorced him for my ex. She says she’s never had anyone pay her the attention or show her the kind of love my ex s does. I’ve sent her all the information regarding S’s and she says that she doesn’t see how the description fits him at all! She’s convinced that I took everything from him! He had NOTHING to take!!!!!

And, yes, I SO agree with you about them going from woman to woman looking for one who will FIX them. Hey! Mine even told me that since he was with me nearly 8 years, that I was his record and I should feel good about that. This came from a man whose life I literally saved. Sometimes now, I wish I would have let him die!

I think even some of his family members thinks the “right” woman will fix him! However, others say that he has a serious problem and is a predator! I agree with that. He’s 40 years old and has left a trail of destruction everywhere he’s been–2 women with children of his to raise alone! Thank God, I wasn’t one of those!


Tami, He introduced me to his best mate, a man who has fathered 6 children by 6 women and doesnt give a jot for any of them. I kept asking myself the same questions – Why is he friends with this kind of man – Why doesnt he have any possessions – why does he live in squalor – why does he refuse to get a passport or driving licence – why does he work 60 hours a week and still have no money before next payday – why has he got in excess of 12 mobile phones – why has he got 85 pages of jobs – why does he move around all over the place – why does he want to be consigned to medical science on his death – why does he want to be sketched by an art class – why doesnt he want to drive a car – why does he hate children – why does he hide behind his mobile phone – why does his voicemail say that if he doesnt return your call, you are the one he is avoiding – why did he say his first sexual encounter was at 31! Why for a man of 40 does he still ride a bicycle – why does he carry out the same habits – why why why??. So much odd behaviour, so many unanswered questions – so many gaps, so many things they dont want you to know.

I realised more about who he was after I finished with him, then when I was with him and his narcissistic behaviour. The reason he wants to be sketched and donated to medical science is that he wants his moment of glory and the final satisfaction of knowing that there will be no record of him at the end ever – his final moment of one upmanship – neat eh!


LOL (empathetic LOL) Beverly – the things that stick out for me there are the medical science and art class. Why do they say these weird things?! Mine loved that Bodyworks exhibition and had an obsession with skulls. I’m worried of saying too much more in case he finds himself somewhere like this.

Once we’ve established the basic stuff – the lying and the circumstances – I find it’s these details that are most fascinating. The ones that, no matter how much you read, make you think ‘BUT WHY?!’

The victim before me had a convertible car and apparently he always begged her to take the roof down when they drove in it, even in bad weather.

YET…I have a convertible car too and the first time we drove out in it on a beautiful summer’s day he said ‘Don’t take the roof down, it’s a tacky thing to do.’ WHY?!!


I think that they prey and pounce on people because they see a gain out of it.-Some benefit for them, even if it is for a moment of satisfaction. Whether money, sex, contacts, power etc.
And sometimes in their minds they may believe that this one is the one for me. But, when they suck you dry and you cant produce anymore, and you lack luster; they move on. It is the nature of the beast. Seek, conquer, destroy, disgard.
Like a play thing. They find a toy they want to play with, get it and play with it so much it breaks, so they throw it out and look for a new one.

Oh and the family thing- MY S’s family are all “nuts” as well. They all walk around like zombies they are on so much medication. They all are manipulators and users. But I think My S is the greatest manipulator of them. He knows it too, one time he even bet me to see if he could get his mother to give him a new patio set she bought for herself. I do think his mother believes the right woman will help him, make him happy whatever. She has even told me, my son has been with alot of woman, he has sleeped with this one and that one BUT no one has been able to hold him down. As if to say he is so great and he has yet to find his perfect mate. Can you say SOCIOPATH! He is a sociopath woman there is no perfect mate for him. Your son is screwed up, he is beyond help or repair. She is a S herself probably so how would she know or care –HA


To changeo6 – You really summed it up here. Seek, conquer, destroy, disgard – that bit really hurts. As one of the other contributors said, it is like being with two different people, the one you really love and want to care for, the other mask, a sick manipulative lying deceiver. You dont know which one you are dealing with. In snapshops, you really believe that at some small times, they really did believe what they said, I want to believe this – but at times I dont know what was real and what was fake.

The other difficult part for me is trying to get him out of my head. I cant not think about him. He crowds into my mind and is always there in the background. Its like he has invaded my thinking life and I dont want him to, I dont want to be a part of him forever.

I too am a co-dependent adult female of a narcisstic father and a schizophrenic mother – its no wonder I was in this kind of relationship and that realisation has been a shocker for me, not just about him, but about myself.

Thank goodness for this site! X


Yes..sociopaths take your mind..I finally took my mind took a long time to get this man, the ex husband out of my mind..when I finally did, it brought forth major healing..I am a wonderful mind today and it is all mine!
He is so cunning and manipulative..he actually turned my children agaisnt me and it took several years to regain respect with the children..he did a number on them they are adults and finally see the truth about their father! We have completely cut off all contact with was the best thing we did for ourselves!



OMG! Have just read your post of 27 June and not only have you put into words everything I feel, your timescales are the same as mine.

Tired, no motivation, no goals – all my dreams shattered – everything I trusted about myself – gone – I have good days and bad days – the regret, the regret, the regret! I knew at the time I was feeling undermined – I ignored it and let him keep chipping away at all the parts of me that I knew were strong.

I feel so foolish. I too isolate – it’s sometimes the only way I feel I can protect myself from any potential threat – I wouldn’t even consider going on a date with someone – the risk is too big and what little progress I have made over the past year is so precious, I don’t want to jeopordise it by inviting the ‘devil through the door’ – boy do they take your mind.

However, it’s been one of my bad days today and I am hoping for a ‘late surge’ of positivity tomorrow.

Would like to hear of your progress and any tips you may have for the return to sanity.

All love.


Ox Drover

Dear Advocate, thanks for bringing up this old article. I have been here two eyars and thought I had read them ALL but apparently I have not! This is one of those “sleeping beauty” posts that should be at the TOP OF THE LIST of “NEEDFUL READING” for all new escapees!

Only one or two of the names of the people posting back when this article was new are familiar to me, and they have “moved on” and no longer post (not sure if they still read) There is an ever-changing turn over of posters here with only a few “old heads” that have stayed and STAYED and are still here.

This article is so good, so enlightening and so TRUE. Mind THEFT! My egg donor said of my P-sperm donor that “he would lie when the truth would fit better’ and “he can make black seem white, and vice versa.” When I was a teenager, he stole my mind! Twisted it! Stomped on it! Squashed it, and I no longer knew up from down, left from right, or black from white—Advocate, I can relate to how your children felt in the vortex of the BLACK HOLE of their “sperm donor’s” (the term FATHER must be EARNED) twisted influence. I am so glad that they ESCAPED into sanity! It is not easy, it took me 40+ years to escape completely from the theft of my mind. I have had to search the universe to find the scattered pieces to put together to form the puzzle-picture of sanity in my life at age 62. I am glad that your children reassembled their minds and hearts at a younger age than I did.

The worst part of all was though, that I passed on the toxic genetic material from my psychopathic ancestors to one of my biological children, little knowing at that time that there was a genetic omponent to EVIL! My other biological son has decided not to have children for that very reason, so I will never have biological grandchildren, but I am OK with that. I wouldn’t breed a dog or a cow with the genetic tendencies that my family has for EVIL, so I can’t fault my son’s judgment in making that decision. At least my family’s genes will stop with the current generation, as my P-son is incarcerated (I hope for his physical life).

Ox Drover

Dear Escapee,

We all I think have “bad days” or ones that are more challenging than others, but those days will decrease in intensity and frequency as you progress toward the healing end of the road.

Just as you can’t hurry some thing s(you can’t get a baby in one month with 9 pregnant women! lol) healing too, takes an amount of TIME…and the amount of time (clock wise or calendar wise) will depend on how deeply and how long you were wounded as well as what your resources are. It IS worth the journey though, so stay on the road toward healing. (((hugs))) and my prayers.


I was researching more on this site..when I read this article..the mind is so much clearer today..I did indeed work hard to regain myself..the truth has set me free..thanks for supporting and sharing..that means a lot to me right I am still dealing with the ex husband..because he keeps bringing me back into family court..for issues that no longer exist..has a lawyer this time..making things more interesting..but I really don’t want to be around him..but he apparently is still attempting to win at something…

Ox Drover


That is interesting that even though your kids are grown he keeps taking you back to family court.

Sometimes they NEVER GET OVER the “injury” we did to them by OUTING them, INSULTING THEM by refusing to give in to their power and control.

My sperm donor P held a special hatred for me that he kept to the end of his life (over 40 years since I had had contact with him) and also with others who had “outed” him and failed to be afraid of him. They have to BE THE CENTER of your world and when they are not, it is a big insult to them. At least it is one way we can “get even” with them. LOL



Yes, he has real issues in taking me back to court..even though the children are adult son is still in college and the ex is still paying child support..that’s why..he hates paying child support..he is in love with money.
When I was awarded sole legal custody..his parental rights were limited..I diovrced him..had the two children living with me..making all the decisions regarding our children..better living arrangements..he got court ordered to pay all debt from the credit card..not me, I walked away debt free..
He physcially..emotionally..mentally..abused all three of us..He had the affairs..and most of all: He lost total control of me when I divorced thing I do for me and our children..was to leave..
by the way: he has been remarried for the last 9 years..and still raises issues with me..figure that one out…strange..or what?
Thanks for sharing with me..


To All,

Lies. lies and lies. My S even used my academic qualification as his own to impress others. All my carreer achievements were used by him as if they were his to impress others (and I did not know he was doing that). He married me after 5 years together and we had two children together (I never believed in marriage but ended up giving in because he insisted so much , and our life together was a bliss, so I tought there is no wrong in here). Hey, he was married to someone before and I never knew that and he never divorced the first wife either. and refused to divorce me. The S is so S that in our marriage certificate he put himself as a Lawyer and me as a Home duties. How in the hell a Lawyer commit bigamy so easily and get through all the systems in place to prevent this to happen?. He has never been a Lawyer and I never been a Home dutie (nothing wrong with being a home dutie wife) I had a brilhante career and a PhD in Economics. How do you think I feel? the smart woman falling in the hands of a conman.. WOW.

We stayed marriage for 23 years but the crackes started appearing just after I agree to married him. By then I had nothing to worried about because his family was very close to me. Guess what? The family is also a confamily, specially the mother. I GOT THE LOT. As soon as I realised all that I slowly started becoming smart.

I managed to get my last grasp of air with my two children and we got rid of him (without him knowing we were doing that).and we saved ourselves and best of all I did not have to engage lawyers, no family Court no nothing. I managed to have him out of the house and 80% of all assets and he has no way to even complain about anything and he is exactly where he went leaving us behind, believing that he was playing one more of his tricks on us, by having affairs overseas. He stayed in there and no chance of returning. although he has tried hard.

We have to become smart and play the game back to them. This site empower us to become those sort of women, strong and powerful within ourselves and have a full recovery and enjoy life in full again. Even if we do not get together with anyone else we feel complete and enjoying every litle moment in life because we gave ourselves a second chance in life.



I have freed myself from the S about 7 years ago. I managed to survive and help my children to survive and have our feet in the ground again. We have recovered everything we lost and our lives is progressing well. The S is in hiding but he continues being a S and doing even worse things with other people. My son became a very strong young man and my daugther I can see some demaged done on her by the actions of the S, minor issues but she came out very strong as well.

One issue that I strugle with is if we should report to the Police all the crimes he committed: For example falsification of signatures and documents to be able to marry me and so commiting bigamy. Obtain a Permanent Visa and subsequently citizenship to the country where I live by using false documentation. Stollen personal documents, including medical reports, jewelery from my daugther and money from my bank account. He still operating under false qualification (another qualification now in the country where he is currently based). He is calling himself a Professor with specialty in childrens education. And he is denying that he still married to me and that he never married me. So in doing this he refuses to divorce me.

My strugle is that : none of what he is doing now is my business, but what he has done to me and my children is my business. I do not want any contact with him but also feel the obligation of informing authorities about a criminal person and his actions. This is a way to put a stop in his continuing deceiving actions and stop hurting other inocent people.

Up to now I had no strength or time to do this. But I now fell that I should do something to prevent such person and his devastating actions destroying other lives. I feel that if I know of something bad I should raise an alarm to the authorities. I also feel that if I do not take action I am conivent with such devastating bahaviour. I would like to hear your views.

What does the research shows in this respect? What would be the appropriate thing to do? Be silent and let him carry on with his activities or file a report against his actions?



Just reading your lat post. If he was already married and then bigamously married you, YOUR marriage is null and void – because it wasn’t legal – because of this fact, your marriage to him could be very easily anulled and I don’t think you would necessarily have to do anything else – like be present in court etc. I think you, at least, need to bring this to the attention of the authorities, being careful to stress that you did not know this at the time – be sure of your facts and that you can prove them. If you can highlight this to the authorities, together with his other activities, without actually becoming involved in any proceedings, it may be worth doing but I would think very carefully before involving myself in anything that may bring him back into your or your family’s life.

It may be wise to take some professional advice on this to see where you stand and then make the decision – if you feel so strongly that you shoud intervene.

Just my thoughts and opinions – hope this might help you come to a decision.



Thank you for your response. I have approached the Family Court and they gave me this advice. I also lodged a report with the Immigration Department with all necessary documentation as proof of my alegations (this was necessary because I was appointed to a National Security Position and I needed security clearance). The Immigration has put a record on his file that he is not allowed to enter this country without my knowledge. They also advised me to report to the Police if I ever feel treatened in anyway, which I do not feel at the moment. The Family Court says that he is allowed to context in the Family Court if he wishes, using the allegation that he is mentally ill and he could even claim a pension from me. But this would be unlikely to be accepted by the Family Court.

I refuse to spend my money with Solicitors as I think my money should not be spent with his cause in anyway. But I feel or I sense the obligation to report his other criminal activities to the Police. I have asked myself several times if this urge is an indication of vindictivenes (which I do not want to cultivate in me) or if it is to satisfy my sense of justice. And this is what I have not come to a conclusion as yet.

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